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Posted: 10/18/2016 11:56:39 AM EDT
Some trainers and internet commandos say that serpa holsters are shit because they cause negligent discharges.

Exact same guy says a Glock is the only handgun one should ever carry....even though Glocks have a higher ND rate than any other pistol ever (issued to cops).

Blatant hypocrisy or is this a case of two different sects of internet commandos / mall ninjas in disagreement?

Personally, I like them both, but that's just MO.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 11:58:30 AM EDT
GLOCK has a better marketing department, and gun guys would rater get free/cheap guns than free/cheap holsters.

That being said, the Serpa holsters are kinda junky... not so much because of the design but just because they aren't made very well.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:10:42 PM EDT
I have a Serpa holster for my Glock, and I've only shot myself like 4 times, max. The whole issue is totally overblown.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:15:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2016 12:16:23 PM EDT by fla556guy]
To be fair, the Glock is working as intended.

The holster......not so much.

If you treat a Glock like you treat a revolver or a sig or a M9 or a .....you get the idea.....keep finger out of trigger guard....you will be fine.

And honestly, if you are thinking of getting a SERPA.....just go get a safariland ALS.....they are way better.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:17:33 PM EDT
NEWS FLASH !!!!!

If you don't pull the trigger it won't fire.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:17:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2016 12:19:14 PM EDT by burkeva]
OPs flawed logic is flawed. Derpa holster places your trigger finger right where the trigger is when you draw. Way too easy with that release system to have your finger actuate the trigger.
Glock has a higher percentage of NDs than other pistols? Please cite where this stat came from? If Glocks do have a higher percentage of NDs than other pistols is it because most agencies use Glocks? When do the NDs happen? During disassembly?drawing? Tomfoolery ? OP seems like a good guy, but I must disagree with the entire premis of his post.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:18:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2016 12:18:48 PM EDT by TacticalHeater]
Originally Posted By jekbrown:
Some trainers and internet commandos say that serpa holsters are shit because they cause negligent discharges.

Exact same guy says a Glock is the only handgun one should ever carry....even though Glocks have a higher ND rate than any other pistol ever (issued to cops).

Blatant hypocrisy or is this a case of two different sects of internet commandos / mall ninjas in disagreement?

Personally, I like them both, but that's just MO.
View Quote




Tell me, which one was designed to work as intended?



The holster that you shoot yourself with or discharge with?


Or the gun that fires when the trigger is properly pulled?





How do you explain a gun being discharged that has a safety in the off off position in a serpa holster?
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:23:02 PM EDT
I ran a serpa in competition with an M9 and G34 for a year or so before I went Bladetech. I didn't have an issue but I can see how some people could. More scary to me were the stories of the serpa lock breaking and you not being able to draw the gun if they happens.

Also the glock stat on NG probably has a lot to do with popularity and the fact that so many cops use them. More popularity more chance of NG especially if police (some) don't get enough training.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:24:21 PM EDT
Are there many documented cases of NDs with SERPAs?


Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:24:43 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By burkeva:
OPs flawed logic is flawed. Derpa holster places your trigger finger right where the trigger is when you draw. Way too easy with that release system to have your finger actuate the trigger.
View Quote


This is not true... At least not my hands / grip. My finger is not only straight, it's no where near the trigger. It's on the frame, right where it should be.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:24:52 PM EDT
Serpa Holsters are Garbage. People are also idiots.

And the world keeps spinning.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:27:29 PM EDT
My solution is, I do not now nor will I ever own either a Glock OR a Serpa holster!

Problem solved. Problem staying solved!
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:28:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2016 12:28:24 PM EDT by 3rdpig]
Glocks and Serpa holsters are like me and redheaded women.

By themselves both are fine, but get them in the same room together and BOOM!



Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:29:12 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By narphenal:
Serpa Holsters are Garbage. People are also idiots.

And the world keeps spinning.
View Quote



LOL. Pretty much sums it up.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:30:15 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jim85IROC:
I have a Serpa holster for my Glock, and I've only shot myself like 4 times, max. The whole issue is totally overblown.
View Quote

Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:31:04 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By feudist:
Are there many documented cases of NDs with SERPAs?



View Quote

Yes, and they were all user errors. Same as people sending rounds down the side of their leg with any other holster.

I carried and trained with a Serpa for a few years. Reason I switched was because I ended up on the ground with it and it took a very small amount of debris to jam the button and lock up the gun in it. Nothing to do with the holster causing NDs.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:31:30 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jekbrown:
Some trainers and internet commandos say that serpa holsters are shit because they cause negligent discharges.

Exact same guy says a Glock is the only handgun one should ever carry....even though Glocks have a higher ND rate than any other pistol ever (issued to cops).

Blatant hypocrisy or is this a case of two different sects of internet commandos / mall ninjas in disagreement?

Personally, I like them both, but that's just MO.
View Quote


There is nothing hypocritical about taking the position that while the user is responsible in all cases, the Serpa design contributes to ND's and the Glock design does not.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:32:01 PM EDT
Manufactured drama for both.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:32:08 PM EDT
One of the main complaints I've seen on the Serpa is that the mechanism can get jammed up with dirt and debris, and you're unable to get your gun out.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:32:29 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Idpapaperoperator:
I ran a serpa in competition with an M9 and G34 for a year or so before I went Bladetech. I didn't have an issue but I can see how some people could. More scary to me were the stories of the serpa lock breaking and you not being able to draw the gun if they happens.

Also the glock stat on NG probably has a lot to do with popularity and the fact that so many cops use them. More popularity more chance of NG especially if police (some) don't get enough training.
View Quote



I was at a Louis Awerbuck class when we had to take a Goddamn hacksaw to cut a guys Glock out of a Serpa. Fuck that shit. Louis carried it with him for years and would show it at classes as a warning about them.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:39:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2016 12:43:41 PM EDT by Red_Blue]
Originally Posted By jekbrown:
Some trainers and internet commandos say that serpa holsters are shit because they cause negligent discharges.
View Quote

Any holster that requires the trigger finger to release the pistol has a factor that is known to contribute to ND risk. As there are a wide variety of retention holsters that use the thumb instead to release the pistol, a trigger finger release is not necessary. The only reason some cheap holsters use it, is cost. It's easier to build one of those than thumb releases.

Most instructors wouldn't recommend a cheap general nylon holster for serious pistol use either. As an instructor there is a hard limit how much you can realistically do to prevent your student shooting himself in the foot while doing a timed draw. Even if you did tens of hours of dry fire to very closely observe that they won't slip their finger from the holster release to the trigger during the draw, when they do make that mistake it's a split second failure you cannot stop in real time.

It's much much easier to ban the dangerous holster (or require the release to be deactivated and that no finger be placed on it during the draw) and have the students shoot themselves in their own time, than to deal with the insurance company about the injuries or damage to indoor range floors.

Originally Posted By jekbrown:
Exact same guy says a Glock is the only handgun one should ever carry....even though Glocks have a higher ND rate than any other pistol ever (issued to cops).
View Quote

How many of those are from speed holstering the pistol?
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:39:40 PM EDT
I used a Serpa with a Glock for a while as my comp holster. I didn't have a problem with the release.

I stopped because the holster broke. I replaced it with a kydex holster a local guy made.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:40:10 PM EDT
I've never actually looked into this but how do you release the Serpa? Is a finger flat along the side pushing down enough pressure or do you have to bend your finger to release?

If you can keep your finger straight it doesn't seem like an issue to me.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:40:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/18/2016 12:40:40 PM EDT by Mariner82]
Originally Posted By burkeva:

OPs flawed logic is flawed. Derpa holster places your trigger finger right where the trigger is when you draw. Way too easy with that release system to have your finger actuate the trigger.
Glock has a higher percentage of NDs than other pistols? Please cite where this stat came from? If Glocks do have a higher percentage of NDs than other pistols is it because most agencies use Glocks? When do the NDs happen? During disassembly?drawing? Tomfoolery ? OP seems like a good guy, but I must disagree with the entire premis of his post.
View Quote

Only if you have little stubby Trump fingers. 
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:40:30 PM EDT
Don't buy shitty holsters.

Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:41:16 PM EDT

I wonder how many people in this thread smoke cigarettes.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:41:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jekbrown:
Some trainers and internet commandos say that serpa holsters are shit because they cause negligent discharges.

Exact same guy says a Glock is the only handgun one should ever carry....even though Glocks have a higher ND rate than any other pistol ever (issued to cops).

Blatant hypocrisy or is this a case of two different sects of internet commandos / mall ninjas in disagreement?

Personally, I like them both, but that's just MO.
View Quote


Actually, we don't like Serpas because they are trash.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:41:51 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By davisac:
I've never actually looked into this but how do you release the Serpa? Is a finger flat along the side pushing down enough pressure or do you have to bend your finger to release?

If you can keep your finger straight it doesn't seem like an issue to me.
View Quote


Pretty much. The Serpa principle is fine. Safariland's ALS is much, much better. The Serpa is a shitty holster just because it's a shitty holster made of shitty polymer.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:43:06 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jekbrown:


This is not true... At least not my hands / grip. My finger is not only straight, it's no where near the trigger. It's on the frame, right where it should be.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
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Originally Posted By jekbrown:
Originally Posted By burkeva:
OPs flawed logic is flawed. Derpa holster places your trigger finger right where the trigger is when you draw. Way too easy with that release system to have your finger actuate the trigger.


This is not true... At least not my hands / grip. My finger is not only straight, it's no where near the trigger. It's on the frame, right where it should be.


Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


It's the mall ninja motherfucker that's fired 50 rounds in his whole life that shows up to a 3 day pistol class with one....

Are you drunk, or is this your normal self?
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:45:42 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
GLOCK has a better marketing department, and gun guys would rater get free/cheap guns than free/cheap holsters.

That being said, the Serpa holsters are kinda junky... not so much because of the design but just because they aren't made very well.
View Quote



This is my issue with them... The only person that can make you have an ND is you.

Sherpa is junk because it's made out of recycled condoms and water bottle caps or something.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:45:48 PM EDT
We still use them as ranch holsters, secure and easy on and off with the paddle.
I have had them full of mud/sand and have not had one lock up yet.

No ND's yet either, but thankfully I am smarter than the plastic.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:46:24 PM EDT
Steve Fisher had a similar thing happen in one of his class. A little pebble jammed the mechanism, and they couldn't get the gun out. No thanks.

Some trainers ban Serpas from their classes.

The Glock, OTOH, is working exactly as it's designed to - trigger press makes it go boom.

Stop drinking the Serpa Koolaid and get a real holster.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:46:54 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By burkeva:
Derpa holster places your trigger finger right where the trigger is when you draw.
View Quote


No they don't. If you leave your trigger finger aligned as it was when you pushed the button it will end up on the frame, not the trigger. The Serpa is still junk, but blaming it for people pulling the trigger on their draw is disingenuous.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:49:37 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By the444shooter:
One of the main complaints I've seen on the Serpa is that the mechanism can get jammed up with dirt and debris, and you're unable to get your gun out.
View Quote



I've seen a bit of snow lock up a Serpa.

Serpa's are junk.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:50:35 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jim85IROC:
I have a Serpa holster for my Glock, and I've only shot myself like 4 times, max. The whole issue is totally overblown.
View Quote

lol
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:52:10 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Jim85IROC:
I have a Serpa holster for my Glock, and I've only shot myself like 4 times, max. The whole issue is totally overblown.
View Quote



Did you die though?


Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:53:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:54:13 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JoshAston:
The Serpa is still junk, but blaming it for people pulling the trigger on their draw is disingenuous.
View Quote


I agree.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:54:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:55:23 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By davisac:
I've never actually looked into this but how do you release the Serpa? Is a finger flat along the side pushing down enough pressure or do you have to bend your finger to release?

If you can keep your finger straight it doesn't seem like an issue to me.
View Quote

Correct, but once someone reads something on the internet....


Link Posted: 10/18/2016 12:58:50 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SPECTRE:
NEWS FLASH !!!!!

If you don't pull the trigger it won't fire.
View Quote

This. Can't stand it when people say glocks cause nds.
No fucker, keep your God damn finger off the motherfucking trigger. There now wasn't that easy?
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 1:02:20 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HALFNATTYGAINZ:

No fucker, keep your God damn finger off the motherfucking trigger. There now wasn't that easy?
View Quote


But nobody could ever train enough to hit a manual safety... that shit will get you killed.

Right?

Link Posted: 10/18/2016 1:07:58 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:


But nobody could ever train enough to hit a manual safety... that shit will get you killed.

Right?

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Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
Originally Posted By HALFNATTYGAINZ:

No fucker, keep your God damn finger off the motherfucking trigger. There now wasn't that easy?


But nobody could ever train enough to hit a manual safety... that shit will get you killed.

Right?





Nothing wrong with a manual safety.



or pacifiers.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 1:08:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jekbrown:
Some trainers and internet commandos say that serpa holsters are shit because they cause negligent discharges.

Exact same guy says a Glock is the only handgun one should ever carry....even though Glocks have a higher ND rate than any other pistol ever (issued to cops).

Blatant hypocrisy or is this a case of two different sects of internet commandos / mall ninjas in disagreement?

Personally, I like them both, but that's just MO.
View Quote


Correlation doesn't equal causation. While it's possible that Glocks are inherently more susceptible to ND's I'd look at the largest group using any pistol to see if they is a likelihood they are skewing the statistics in either direction.


Example:

#1 Ignorant or poorly trained firearms users - vs - #2 well trained or careful users (who stick know their limitations and don't push too far outside their skill level) both using the same pistol in the same configuration.

or...

#1 Those who use a pistol they are uncomfortable or unfamiliar with - vs - #2 those who own a pistol they are familiar with even if mediocre in skill and training

Both of these examples would skew highly toward #1 having more ND's and generally being less safe than #2.


That said, the Serpa does position the trigger finger in a spot that increases the chance for an ND. Even with this it's possible to train to avoid it or at least greatly reduce the likelihood of an ND occurring.

Example: when releasing the lock during the draw, maintain the index finger in a stiff straight position pointed towards the ground, using the second knuckle of the palm side of your index finger to release rather than the tip of the first digit with bent finger. Leaving the index finger fully extended and straight during the draw stroke until the gun is clear of your holster and the muzzle is outside the area of your possible foot movement - approximately 45°, or halfway between the draw and the target.

During a stressful scenario an ND becomes more likely with any holster/gun combo, especially with a Serpa so correct training (slow deliberate over quick sloppy actions) is essential to being safe and ensuring you survive. I think being comfortable with your setup is an important of training, if you are comfortable with a Glock/Serpa or whatever that goes a long way towards being proficient as well as safe.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 1:15:21 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By QP031:

Correct, but once someone reads something on the internet....

https://youtu.be/MAGri0Xy5Y0
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Originally Posted By QP031:
Originally Posted By davisac:
I've never actually looked into this but how do you release the Serpa? Is a finger flat along the side pushing down enough pressure or do you have to bend your finger to release?

If you can keep your finger straight it doesn't seem like an issue to me.

Correct, but once someone reads something on the internet....

https://youtu.be/MAGri0Xy5Y0


This is probably the cause of 90% of the ND's with Serpas. Proper training is vital to anything firearms related. I imaging most who have ND's use the release like a button and press with the tip of a bent index finger, opening the chance it will slide right into the trigger guard and pull the trigger on the up stroke.

I'm lucky, as I have 1000's of reps building muscle memory from using the release on my bike lock. It's just a tiny button and would work with the tip of a finger, but I can operate it the same way as is correct for the Serpa which helps to reinforce proper draw.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 1:18:22 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HALFNATTYGAINZ:
No fucker, keep your God damn finger off the motherfucking trigger. There now wasn't that easy?
View Quote

I wish. I don't regularly teach from zero experience level, but I've talked to quite a few instructors who do. The collective experience is that there is really nobody out there with whom that works.

You cannot learn it simply by being told so once and then go on doing it perfectly. Being able to master trigger discipline takes hours of training, including live fire. The more difficult task or a series of tasks you integrate, the harder it is and the more time you need to get someone observe it perfectly or near perfectly (essentially safely).

If you know of a way to do it faster than that, the training industry would immediately hire you and license your method and you wouldn't have to do anything else for work ever again.

I think the OP is also misleading quite a bit in the inference that only huge Glock fan instructors have the no trigger finger release holster policy. Those two are really not related and there is no “hypocrisy”. It's probably true that many instructors like to instruct with the Glock because it's one of the easiest pistols to shoot, even though it's not that easy to hit with. Which means it's just optimal for basic training and for organizations that need easy tools for simple people not being built up to be experts with the tools.

It also appears that for the course/unit provided pistols where ther is a choice, many beginner level users will rather take a light pistol with a heavy trigger and without a manual safety over a steel pistol with a better trigger but a manual safety. Only through experience they come to appreciate the performance characteristics more than the simplicity of the UI.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 1:18:57 PM EDT
OP, your premise is flawed.


You should feel bad
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 1:20:09 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Serpas are junk because they jam on rocks and junk besides the poor design
View Quote


What's the immediate action drill for that? Does SPORTS work? I forget.

This is a good reason to use a different holster. You can't train for a rock causing a stoppage in the release.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 1:22:57 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Sharkman74:
OP, your premise is flawed.


You should feel bad
View Quote

I feel bad for the OP.

I called the local hotline for her.
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 1:23:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/18/2016 1:24:30 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
[b]Originally Posted By bcauz3y:



Nothing wrong with a manual safety.



or pacifiers.
View Quote

Need a like button.
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