What's the deal?  Any good?  Anyone have one of the SUV models?  

I have a prius.  I love it.  58 Mpg on average, mostly hwy driving.

Quoted: I have a prius.  I love it.  58 Mpg on average, mostly hwy driving.

Are you sure?  Mine gets like 45-50 max.  I think thats the national average.  Highway driving even gets you less mileage.  Its made for city driving because braking actually replenishes the batteries.  You might want to check your figures again.  My buddy is a Toyota engineer that had a hand in the design and he will even tell you that anything over 50 mpg is total hogwash in real time driving.

Can the batteries be recycled cost effectively? Are these things really better for the environment than a non-hybrid small displacement car?

Quoted: Quoted: I have a prius.  I love it.  58 Mpg on average, mostly hwy driving. Are you sure?  Mine gets like 45-50 max.  I think thats the national average.  Highway driving even gets you less mileage.  Its made for city driving because braking actually replenishes the batteries.  You might want to check your figures again.  My buddy is a Toyota engineer that had a hand in the design and he will even tell you that anything over 50 mpg is total hogwash in real time driving.

Yes, I am sure.

Quoted: Can the batteries be recycled cost effectively? Are these things really better for the environment than a non-hybrid small displacement car?

Toyota will replace your batteries once at 100000 miles free of charge.  Yes thats a pun.  

So you actually dont have to worry about the batteries going bad.

What are you a greenie?

Actually the best bang for your buck is a VW diesel.

IMO, the coolest thing about the Prius isn't the fuel economy (which isn't enough of an improvement to justify the extra cost for most drivers), but rather the technology:

1. All-electric air conditioning - Instead of being engine-driven, the air conditioner compressor is powered by electricity. Not only is this approach more reliable (no shaft seals to leak), but it also allows the AC to run when the engine is off.

2. Electric power generation - The on-board alternator is powerful enough to run your entire house in an emergency. All that is lacking is an inverter to convert the high-voltage DC from the battery pack to 60 Hz AC power.

3. Exceptional space efficiency - Most of the interior dimensions compare with the mid-sized Camry. Also, the 5-door design handles cargo like a small station wagon.

Even if you ignore the hybrid design, it's still a ground-breaking vehicle.

When they make one that seats 7-9, and lots of storage...

That can get up to freeway speed by the end of the onramp...

AND looks nice...

I'll think about it.

Check out this thread.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=433652

Quoted: Toyota will replace your batteries once at 100000 miles free of charge.

Really?  That's the first I've heard of that, but if so, that's points in the Prius corner for whenever I can afford to buy a new car again...

Actually the best bang for your buck is a VW diesel.

High on my list as well.  A diesel passat would be nice.  

Quoted: Actually the best bang for your buck is a VW diesel. High on my list as well.  A diesel passat would be nice.

Better factor in all the time that VW will be in the shop.

They like to break, and expensively.

for various reasons they may end up costing you more then a strictly gas powered car over the long run. Just wait for a true alternative fueled/powered vehicle to come out.  Hybrids are merely stepping stones to something bigger and better...

Quoted: When they make one that seats 7-9, and lots of storage... That can get up to freeway speed by the end of the onramp... AND looks nice... I'll think about it.

They don't make a 7-9 seater van yet and looks are in the eye of the beholder.
BUT the electric motor in the Prius produces 295 ft. lbs. of torque.  You better believe that these little cars dig like crazy from a standing start.  I've had a hard time keeping up with them from stoplights in my Taurus.
That in fact, is one of the advantages of an electric motor.  They produce torque as soon as they are up off of zero rpm.  THAT'S why they are used as STARTERS in internal combustion engines.  An internal combustion engine produces almost zero torque until around 600-800rpm.  And even then, it's only sufficient to keep itself turning over.

Quoted: Can the batteries be recycled cost effectively? Are these things really better for the environment than a non-hybrid small displacement car?

The batteries are definitely recyleable. I've heard that the dealers pay a "bounty" on old battery packs to encourage the recycling. I don't know anything about Toyota replacing the pack free at 100k miles; new one to me. I know Honda does not. BUT the packs are designed to last at least 10 years of typical driving (150k miles at least), and I've seen anecdotal stories on one of the Prius discussion boards of some folk getting over 200k miles on the original battery pack (these are on the original model Prius).

They use less gas, therefore generally less pollution. If you're concerned about pollution levels, and you ought to be if you breathe, you can compare vehicle's pollution levels here:
www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

I have one of the Honda Civic hyrbids, and I'm happy with it. I'm not terribly concerned about making back the $3000 premium; that was never my primary motivation anyways. I see hybrids as a stepping stone to something better (probably some sort of hydrogen powered vehicles). The automakers can't and won't make the leap from regular gas powered vehicles to hydrogen; too costly and too much risk. Therefore an interim/transition technology is needed. Hybrids are it.  If no one buys the first generation of any given technology, you'll never see later and much better versions.

Is it true that when you get a Prius,the salesman gives you Kerry/Edwards and Celebrate Diversity bumperstickers ?

Quoted: Is it true that when you get a Prius,the salesman gives you Kerry/Edwards and Celebrate Diversity bumperstickers ?

Interesting question. MOST of the Prius I see do have silly Democratic type stickers. Most of the Hondas I see have no stickers. I refuse to put stickers on my vehicles. I also am not a Democrat/socialist/communist.

Don't fall into the fallacious thinking of anyone who cares about the environment must be a commie pinko; far from the truth. Just think about it a bit. What kind of world do you want to leave to your kids - a smelly grey used up world, or a better one? Will your kids think your generation let them down by not taking better care of the Earth?

Quoted: Quoted: Is it true that when you get a Prius,the salesman gives you Kerry/Edwards and Celebrate Diversity bumperstickers ? Interesting question. MOST of the Prius I see do have silly Democratic type stickers. Most of the Hondas I see have no stickers. I refuse to put stickers on my vehicles. I also am not a Democrat/socialist/communist. Don't fall into the fallacious thinking of anyone who cares about the environment must be a commie pinko; far from the truth. Just think about it a bit. What kind of world do you want to leave to your kids - a smelly grey used up world, or a better one? Will your kids think your generation let them down by not taking better care of the Earth?

It IS an interesting question.
The Prius DOES seem to have a reputation as "THE Liberal's car" and I find this incomprehensible.
I wonder how serious all those Conservatives REALLY are about SHTF when they turn up their noses at a car that can move you 500 miles from a disaster area on 11 gallons of gas.

My wife and I had a '93 Honda Civic that got 42mpg hwy. Seems to me that almost 15 years later we'd have hybrids getting twice that.

Quoted: My wife and I had a '93 Honda Civic that got 42mpg hwy. Seems to me that almost 15 years later we'd have hybrids getting twice that.

W-G,
There are concept designs for hybrids that get 90mpg.
In addition to the basic hybrid drive technology, cars can be made much lighter and even stronger using aircraft construction techniques.  It is economically possible to use mass production carbon fiber technology in conjunction with monobody type construction, then add to that, bio/gasoline technology and one can easily get a hybrid design up around 90mpg.

We had a talk about this by Amory Lovins from the Rocky Mountain institute.  He's not a "Screamin' Greenie".  He was listed by the Wall Street Journal as one of the individuals most likely to influence the future course of commerce.  He's one of the people whose opinions are sought out by Fortune 500 companies.
There are some big changes that are going to happen over the next twenty years in how cars are made.  The only questions are; are American companies going to be on the leading edge?  Or are they going to stay behind the eight ball?

How many people will die on contact when the mom mobile Suburbantanic SUV plowes into one of those fold up hybrids? There is no way I would put my family in one of those cracker boxes. I don't care if they get 200 mpg. Their saftey is more important than being able to brag on how many miles per gallon were getting. Give me a mid-size German sedan with the airbag curtain everything kit. I am a technology freak and think the technology is going the right direction, but I'm not going to be the ginnypig driving around in a glorified Golf cart. Reporting back on the saftey ratings of the hybrids is what I'll anticipate. Oh well, Not for my wife and kids.....

1.  I believe that hybrids will be the technology for the next 20 years.  After that, our ability to use nuclear power to produce hydrogen may drive true fuel cell technology.
2.  Thanks to the bleeding edge guys for pushing this technology.  You're making a statement, not a sound economic choice (yet).  But there has to be pioneers willing to risk and spend and you're proving the engineering viability of this technology.
3.  To all you Prius drivers:


GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE PASSING LANE !!!
YOU'RE SLOWING US DOWN !!!

Quoted: I wonder how serious all those Conservatives REALLY are about SHTF when they turn up their noses at a car that can move you 500 miles from a disaster area on 11 gallons of gas.

The Prius is in no way a SHTF car, unless SHTF exists solely of $5 a gallon gasoline.
In SHTF, you're gonna get whatever gas and gear you're currently carrying, and my gasoline SUV will get me over 600 miles with a full tank and my gas cans.  You won't fit any spares in a Prius.

Quoted: How many people will die on contact when the mom mobile Suburbantanic SUV plowes into one of those fold up hybrids? There is no way I would put my family in one of those cracker boxes. I don't care if they get 200 mpg. Their saftey is more important than being able to brag on how many miles per gallon were getting. Give me a mid-size German sedan with the airbag curtain everything kit. I am a technology freak and think the technology is going the right direction, but I'm not going to be the ginnypig driving around in a glorified Golf cart. Reporting back on the saftey ratings of the hybrids is what I'll anticipate. Oh well, Not for my wife and kids.....

www.automotive.com/2004/12/toyota/prius/safety/

Four and five star ratings in every crash test category aren't good enough?  

Prius is hardly a "fold-up" hybrid.  I've heard nothing but high praise for its safety ratings.

Quoted: Quoted: I wonder how serious all those Conservatives REALLY are about SHTF when they turn up their noses at a car that can move you 500 miles from a disaster area on 11 gallons of gas. The Prius is in no way a SHTF car, unless SHTF exists solely of $5 a gallon gasoline. In SHTF, you're gonna get whatever gas and gear you're currently carrying, and my gasoline SUV will get me over 600 miles with a full tank and my gas cans.  You won't fit any spares in a Prius.

You obviously haven't looked at a new Prius.
There's seating for five and more than enough space in the cargo area for a couple of 5 gal gas cans.  That's enough to up one's cruising range to 1,000 miles.
To each his own.  There are plenty of parts of the country where a Prius will perform as well as anything else.

Prius and Civic hybrid waiting lists here are huge, as are the waiting lists for new VW Jetta TDIs. Personally, I'll go diesel with my next commute. Repairs for VWs do suck,but it beats having your car slowly die at 100k+ as the battery pack fails. I like to get about 200k from my cars and trucks. The current hybrid battery pack lifetimes are designed for the "buy a new car every three years" folks. I can't afford that.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder how serious all those Conservatives REALLY are about SHTF when they turn up their noses at a car that can move you 500 miles from a disaster area on 11 gallons of gas. The Prius is in no way a SHTF car, unless SHTF exists solely of $5 a gallon gasoline. In SHTF, you're gonna get whatever gas and gear you're currently carrying, and my gasoline SUV will get me over 600 miles with a full tank and my gas cans.  You won't fit any spares in a Prius. You obviously haven't looked at a new Prius. There's seating for five and more than enough space in the cargo area for a couple of 5 gal gas cans.  That's enough to up one's cruising range to 1,000 miles. To each his own.  There are plenty of parts of the country where a Prius will perform as well as anything else.

I have looked at the Prius.
But you obviously don't understand SHTF.  
If you want to get outta Dodge with the clothes on your back, you're welcome to it.
If I want a hybrid for SHTF, the first one I'm going to look at is the Ford Escape hybrid with a trailer hitch and a small trailer.

Quoted: Quoted: Can the batteries be recycled cost effectively? Are these things really better for the environment than a non-hybrid small displacement car? Toyota will replace your batteries once at 100000 miles free of charge.  Yes thats a pun.   So you actually dont have to worry about the batteries going bad. What are you a greenie? Actually the best bang for your buck is a VW diesel.

I suppose my point is that everyone who thinks they are saving the earth at the same time they get better fuel economy should consider the disposal of the batteries in their green-mobiles. Is it a break even deal, or are these hybrids actually worse for the environment than a VW?

Quoted: Quoted: Actually the best bang for your buck is a VW diesel. High on my list as well.  A diesel passat would be nice.   Better factor in all the time that VW will be in the shop. They like to break, and expensively.

Funny, my 2000 Jetta TDI only goes to the shop for routine maintenance.  Maybe that's the key, actually maintain your vehicle.

Quoted: I suppose my point is that everyone who thinks they are saving the earth at the same time they get better fuel economy should consider the disposal of the batteries in their green-mobiles. Is it a break even deal, or are these hybrids actually worse for the environment than a VW?

I'm no expert, but it seems to reason that huge battery banks are worse for the environment in the end than a fuel-efficient gas engine.

Thanx for serious replies and thank you to the dickheads who turned this thread into a "you're a greenie/ you dont' know SHTF-fu, grasshopper" type bullshit thread!  After 8 years of this crap, I don't mind the hijacks, it just makes for good laughs now.

Quoted: Quoted: Is it true that when you get a Prius,the salesman gives you Kerry/Edwards and Celebrate Diversity bumperstickers ? Interesting question. MOST of the Prius I see do have silly Democratic type stickers. Most of the Hondas I see have no stickers. I refuse to put stickers on my vehicles. I also am not a Democrat/socialist/communist. Don't fall into the fallacious thinking of anyone who cares about the environment must be a commie pinko; far from the truth. Just think about it a bit. What kind of world do you want to leave to your kids - a smelly grey used up world, or a better one? Will your kids think your generation let them down by not taking better care of the Earth?

I just don't think that buying a hybrid will change anything in the environment. So I guess I'm not ready yet. But, the Toyota Prius is one of the most cost efficent vehicles to own over 5 years.
www.intellichoice.com/reports/vehicleReport/vehicle_nmb/19025/type/new/year/2006/make/Toyota/model/Prius  
ETA: I guess it won't let me do a direct link to the car.
ETA: The Prius is cheaper to own over 5 years than a $10,000 Kia or a Civic or a Focus. I think it is cheaper to own over 5 years than anything else.

Quoted: I suppose my point is that everyone who thinks they are saving the earth at the same time they get better fuel economy should consider the disposal of the batteries in their green-mobiles. Is it a break even deal, or are these hybrids actually worse for the environment than a VW?

I know the batteries are recyclable, but I don't know what kind of impact they have.  I do know that VW can't even get their diesels to comply with ULEV pollution standards, whereas Prius is SULEV.  I believe the California models are even rated AT-PZEV.

Bottom line is hybrid anything is teh ghey. If you drive anything with a motor smaller than 5 liters than your a earth loving hippy. (only exceptions to the 5 liter rule is if your car is turbo or supercharged or has atleast a nos system with 75 hp jets minimum)

I'm surprised none of the European submarine manufacturers aren't getting into this-they have some pretty advanced diesel/electric technology nowadays, and it seems like diesel hybrids should be the next step.

Quoted: Quoted: I wonder how serious all those Conservatives REALLY are about SHTF when they turn up their noses at a car that can move you 500 miles from a disaster area on 11 gallons of gas. The Prius is in no way a SHTF car, unless SHTF exists solely of $5 a gallon gasoline. In SHTF, you're gonna get whatever gas and gear you're currently carrying, and my gasoline SUV will get me over 600 miles with a full tank and my gas cans.  You won't fit any spares in a Prius.

HAR!

for comparison.. i have a 91 honda CRX HF. I keep it tuned. it gets over 45 mpg.. around 50 on the interstate. holds around 10 gals. i can with great ease get two five gallon containers of gas in the hatch giving me a range of around 1000 miles.

i bring this up because the crx is a little two seater hatch. the prius has a nice hatch too. and gets around the same mpg if not more. you could put your family in it and an extra 10 gals and get an easy 1000 miles.

also thing of it this way. in shtf your gonna be scrounging and trading. that 10 gals of gas you might be able to scrounge is gonna take you further in the prius than the suv.

prius are neat cars. if you are interested in technology they are cool. they are not the be all and end all of ending gas dependence but they are a step in that direction.

the two top cars on my wish list are a prius and a corvette z06. with a rock crawling jeep rubicon a close second. (and if i won the lottery a unimog). each vehicle fills a niche.

Quoted: When they make one that seats 7-9, and lots of storage... That can get up to freeway speed by the end of the onramp... AND looks nice... I'll think about it.

It's doable. The Military has experimented with Hybrid-drive Armored Personnel Carriers (M113s) and HMMWVs (Hummers) and they worked as good or better than their diesel counterparts. The battery technology is the limiting issue. The bateeries that work well are prohibitively expensivbe to make right now. This could change with increased production and demand. If consumer demand was there, you can bet they would be making Hybrid Suburbans and Expeditions. I would look for them in the next 10 years.

here are some articles on some of those efforts:

Military hybrid testing

federal Labs

Army hybrid-drive humvee


Hybrid-Drive Humvee


M113 Hybrid Electric Drive System

All it will take is a few more years of skyrocketing gas prices for the market to adapt.
The big oil companies are sounding their own death knell over the next 20 years with their record profits, IMO.

Quoted: IMO, the coolest thing about the Prius isn't the fuel economy (which isn't enough of an improvement to justify the extra cost for most drivers), but rather the technology: 1. All-electric air conditioning - Instead of being engine-driven, the air conditioner compressor is powered by electricity. Not only is this approach more reliable (no shaft seals to leak), but it also allows the AC to run when the engine is off. 2. Electric power generation - The on-board alternator is powerful enough to run your entire house in an emergency. All that is lacking is an inverter to convert the high-voltage DC from the battery pack to 60 Hz AC power. 3. Exceptional space efficiency - Most of the interior dimensions compare with the mid-sized Camry. Also, the 5-door design handles cargo like a small station wagon. Even if you ignore the hybrid design, it's still a ground-breaking vehicle.

Our best friends recently purchased their second Prius.  After testing it, I must agree.  That fugly little beast is one amazing vehicle.  If my missus wasn't beating the crap out of me for a new Honday Odyssey, I'd get a Prius in a second.

One thing my friend said that did concern me was that HE has to pay for the battery replacement and that it was going to cost $5K!  

I read the above posting on Toyota replacing it...can someone pls verify?

Quoted: Prius and Civic hybrid waiting lists here are huge, as are the waiting lists for new VW Jetta TDIs. Personally, I'll go diesel with my next commute. Repairs for VWs do suck,but it beats having your car slowly die at 100k+ as the battery pack fails. I like to get about 200k from my cars and trucks. The current hybrid battery pack lifetimes are designed for the "buy a new car every three years" folks. I can't afford that.

Where are you getting your information on how fast the battery packs die? The packs are designed for 10 years normal useage (that's about 150k miles)...read here automobiles.honda.com/models/faqs.asp?ModelName=Civic+Hybrid

And go to Toyota's website under hybrids, faq, how it works and you'll see that they say the batteries are lasting 180k miles with no degradation.

So go and get educated before you continue to speak mis-information.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder how serious all those Conservatives REALLY are about SHTF when they turn up their noses at a car that can move you 500 miles from a disaster area on 11 gallons of gas. The Prius is in no way a SHTF car, unless SHTF exists solely of $5 a gallon gasoline. In SHTF, you're gonna get whatever gas and gear you're currently carrying, and my gasoline SUV will get me over 600 miles with a full tank and my gas cans.  You won't fit any spares in a Prius. HAR! for comparison.. i have a 91 honda CRX HF. I keep it tuned. it gets over 45 mpg.. around 50 on the interstate. holds around 10 gals. i can with great ease get two five gallon containers of gas in the hatch giving me a range of around 1000 miles. i bring this up because the crx is a little two seater hatch. the prius has a nice hatch too. and gets around the same mpg if not more. you could put your family in it and an extra 10 gals and get an easy 1000 miles. also thing of it this way. in shtf your gonna be scrounging and trading. that 10 gals of gas you might be able to scrounge is gonna take you further in the prius than the suv. prius are neat cars. if you are interested in technology they are cool. they are not the be all and end all of ending gas dependence but they are a step in that direction. the two top cars on my wish list are a prius and a corvette z06. with a rock crawling jeep rubicon a close second. (and if i won the lottery a unimog). each vehicle fills a niche.

Go to any reputable survival forum (including our own SF) and keyword search for "hybrid", "Prius" or "CRX".  You won't find much.

Of course, you may be "visionary", but I'm pretty sure you're more "delusional".  

I can load up my SUV with all the gas I have (which is probably all the gas you'll ever have) and easily outrange the smaller hybrids without a doubt.  I can also carry all my gear and tow something (more gas).

Hybrids will, in a few years, be a truly economical alternative.  Right now, there's not a single model which will cost justify itself at current gas prices.

I'm not bashing hybrids, I actually like the concept, but this generation will be relegated as commuter vehicles.

Wards's Autoworld, an industry publication, had an editorial pointing out the fallacies of paying a premium for a Hybrid a few months ago.
The example used was a Chrysler Hemi with cylinder deactivation technology.  Gas mileage in the 30's (HWY) with all of the room and pulling power you need when you need it.  At best, the hybrid real world mileage was mid 40's on the highway.  Not enough to offset the cost and comfort trade offs.  Their suggestion, get the Hemi.

Quoted: All it will take is a few more years of skyrocketing gas prices for the market to adapt. The big oil companies are sounding their own death knell over the next 20 years with their record profits, IMO.

"Record profits" which are not out of line with other industries, BTW (and lag many others).
Those same profits are being used to a) find more of the same (oil) and b) R&D other energy sources.

They aren't going away, but they won't be so oil-based in the future.

ETA:  The military reasoning behind hybrids is based almost entirely on the logistics system.  Just getting fuel into combat quadruples (and sometimes, tenfold) the cost of the fuel.  Less fuel means lesslogistical resources (which are overwhelmingly dedicated to petroleum delivery), as  well.  The initial outlay would more than be justified over the life of the vehicle.

Not to mention the fact that a hybrid can run as a generator when not moving.
My FDC track (M577, a M113 derivative) would have to deploy the 4.2kW generator almost immediately after emplacement.  A hybrid track wouldn't need the genset to power all four radios, the heater and the coffee maker I installed.

Regarding the A/C.  From the comment about the Prius, it would appear they have an electric one. (ANswers a question I had about other Hybrids).  But, you need to check on the Hybrid you are buying.  Most others - I know the one I was considering, a Ford Escape - run the gas engine for the A/C compressor:  if you live in a warm climate, you do not have an hybrid.  So, all the other analysis goes out the window for the practical reason that the hybrid part ceases to be.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder how serious all those Conservatives REALLY are about SHTF when they turn up their noses at a car that can move you 500 miles from a disaster area on 11 gallons of gas. The Prius is in no way a SHTF car, unless SHTF exists solely of $5 a gallon gasoline. In SHTF, you're gonna get whatever gas and gear you're currently carrying, and my gasoline SUV will get me over 600 miles with a full tank and my gas cans.  You won't fit any spares in a Prius. HAR! for comparison.. i have a 91 honda CRX HF. I keep it tuned. it gets over 45 mpg.. around 50 on the interstate. holds around 10 gals. i can with great ease get two five gallon containers of gas in the hatch giving me a range of around 1000 miles. i bring this up because the crx is a little two seater hatch. the prius has a nice hatch too. and gets around the same mpg if not more. you could put your family in it and an extra 10 gals and get an easy 1000 miles. also thing of it this way. in shtf your gonna be scrounging and trading. that 10 gals of gas you might be able to scrounge is gonna take you further in the prius than the suv. prius are neat cars. if you are interested in technology they are cool. they are not the be all and end all of ending gas dependence but they are a step in that direction. the two top cars on my wish list are a prius and a corvette z06. with a rock crawling jeep rubicon a close second. (and if i won the lottery a unimog). each vehicle fills a niche. Go to any reputable survival forum (including our own SF) and keyword search for "hybrid", "Prius" or "CRX".  You won't find much. Of course, you may be "visionary", but I'm pretty sure you're more "delusional".   I can load up my SUV with all the gas I have (which is probably all the gas you'll ever have) and easily outrange the smaller hybrids without a doubt.  I can also carry all my gear and tow something (more gas). Hybrids will, in a few years, be a truly economical alternative.  Right now, there's not a single model which will cost justify itself at current gas prices. I'm not bashing hybrids, I actually like the concept, but this generation will be relegated as commuter vehicles.

actually my shtf delusion is 40 acres and a mule.... no gas atall....

By 2010

US Army's new truck

With the cruise set at an indicated 68mph(about 65-66 by GPS), I've had 842 miles on one tank in my TDI.  I've heard of people getting 900 and more miles, but they're probably driving a lot slower.  And you can fit quite a bit in there too, if you fold down the back seats.  I drove from AZ to MD with a tv, microwave, most of my clothes, a couple rifles and a pistol, a few thousand rounds of 7.62 and 5.56, a couple boxes of dishes and other kitchen stuff(george foreman grill, bunch of food, etc), a THE Pack full of stuff, air mattress, folding chair, cooler, computer... that's all I can remember off the top of my head.  Coming from Yuma, I chickened out and filled up in Albuquerque, but could have made it to Los Alamos.  A couple days later, I set the cruise control in the low 80s and made over 700 miles without stopping.  That was Los Alamos, NM to the OK/AR state line, non-stop.  I was a little stiff when I got out, but I was never uncomfortable in the car.  I jumped back in and continued driving(after filling up, a much-needed trip to the restroom, and a classic double w/cheese).

I'm not saying it's a good SHTF vehicle, but hatchbacks(Prius included, I'm sure) have a lot more utility than most people think.  And with my TDI, when the low fuel light comes on, that means I've burned about 15gal, and have about two gallons left.  You could add a small trailer, or get a wagon, for even more utility, or a roof rack.  Sure, a trailer or rack will lower mileage, but that's true for any car.  There was one guy on the TDIclub(<<<GREAT source for TDI info!) who claimed that he averaged about 35mpg crossing the country in his Jetta... towing a new Mini Cooper.  Don't forget diesels can run on a wide variety of fuels- diesel, biodiesel, kerosene, jet fuel, vegetable oil, etc.

Ok, I guess most of that was OT, but I wanted to say that hatchbacks are a lot more useful than people think.  It ain't a truck bed of course, but it's not bad.

As for going to the shop, I've had a few problems with my TDI, but it's never stalled or failed to start.  Just little shit like power windows, bad ground, etc.  WIth the help of TDIclub forums, I do my own work.  Although I do think I have a fuel leak right now, which isn't exactly "little shit" any more.  At least it's not gasoline, I'd probably have a molten pile of metal and rubber instead of a car.

Quoted: Regarding the A/C.  From the comment about the Prius, it would appear they have an electric one. (ANswers a question I had about other Hybrids).  But, you need to check on the Hybrid you are buying.  Most others - I know the one I was considering, a Ford Escape - run the gas engine for the A/C compressor:  if you live in a warm climate, you do not have an hybrid.  So, all the other analysis goes out the window for the practical reason that the hybrid part ceases to be.

Does the electric motor not work when the gas engine is running?  I would think the motor could still assist the gas engine, it's just that the gas engine won't stop running at stop lights and stuff.  Still sounds like a hybrid to me.

Quoted: Quoted: How many people will die on contact when the mom mobile Suburbantanic SUV plowes into one of those fold up hybrids? There is no way I would put my family in one of those cracker boxes. I don't care if they get 200 mpg. Their saftey is more important than being able to brag on how many miles per gallon were getting. Give me a mid-size German sedan with the airbag curtain everything kit. I am a technology freak and think the technology is going the right direction, but I'm not going to be the ginnypig driving around in a glorified Golf cart. Reporting back on the saftey ratings of the hybrids is what I'll anticipate. Oh well, Not for my wife and kids..... www.automotive.com/2004/12/toyota/prius/safety/ Four and five star ratings in every crash test category aren't good enough?   Prius is hardly a "fold-up" hybrid.  I've heard nothing but high praise for its safety ratings.

my roommate got t-boned by an ford f-250 while in his prius.  he was fine.  the car held up fine.

Honda Civic Hybrid - 2003

46,000 miles - no probs

38 - 42 mpg around town

45 - 50 on the highway

Quoted: Quoted: Regarding the A/C.  From the comment about the Prius, it would appear they have an electric one. (ANswers a question I had about other Hybrids).  But, you need to check on the Hybrid you are buying.  Most others - I know the one I was considering, a Ford Escape - run the gas engine for the A/C compressor:  if you live in a warm climate, you do not have an hybrid.  So, all the other analysis goes out the window for the practical reason that the hybrid part ceases to be. Does the electric motor not work when the gas engine is running?  I would think the motor could still assist the gas engine, it's just that the gas engine won't stop running at stop lights and stuff.  Still sounds like a hybrid to me.

Yes and no.  The real point of the hybrid, as I understand it, is that the electric motor can run the car at low speeds (city), and the gas engine kicks in only when needed.  To be sure, the electric helps the gas at speed, and the gas helps recharge the batteris at this speed (though nothing is even close to 100% efficient, so it's a loss, actually).  To me, the real benefit of a hybrid is that it recharges when going downhill or stopping, and allows a less than 100% operating cycle of the gas engine.  If the A/C on, as in FL or TX, for example, requires the gas engine on, then you have 100% gas engine operation.  Yes, the electric motor helps, but it would be a wash, at best, and may be less than that when one gets through the various inefficiencies inevitable in any system (for example, the part of the gas motor's output spent in recharging batteries would be more efficiently spent providing power directly to the drive train than via the electric motor, as there will be losses in the chargind system, batteries, and electric motor)

Quoted: Honda Civic Hybrid - 2003 46,000 miles - no probs 38 - 42 mpg around town 45 - 50 on the highway

1993 Honda Civic 1.6L gas engine

181,000 miles - no probs

33-35 mpg around town

41-42 mpg on the highway

Getting nearly the same fuel economy as a new hybrid for 1/4 the price?

Priceless.

Why doesn't anyone make a hybrid minivan?