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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/24/2005 9:23:35 AM EDT
Okay, so I'm a .gov GS employee working for the Army.

We just hired a guy at 2 pay-grades below mine, who is is 31 with 2 Associates Degrees.

I'm 25 with no degree.

I am constantly re-doing his work, which makes extra work for me, and I'm tired of it.

He only recently found out that I hold a higher paygrade than him, and since then, has become pretty unpleasant to work with. I'm not his direct supervisor, but my supervisor has made it clear to everyone we work with that when he is gone I run the shop, and he's gone all week.

Yesterday, I was fixing something he messed up, and I was calmly trying to explain how he needed to do it in the future when he started arguing and raising his voice and said "Fuck You!" in front of several Majors and Lt Cols.
I was pissed that he was acting very unprofessionally, but didn't know what to say, so I told him that it was his mistake, and he needed to fix it, and left the room.

Before I left for home I got a another call about something else he said was fiuxed, but was actually messed up, and updated our database that he needed to go fix it again.

Today he came to work, and saw that I had re-assigned him the work, and as soon as we were the only ones in the room he started to get pissy and mentioned yesterday. He paused for a second, and I said "Speaking of yesterday, don't ever say fuck you to me again in front of customers." I admit, I was trying to egg him on a little, but from there he blew up even further and started yelling and raising his voice and saying, "Or what? Or what, huh? What are you going to do about it?" and calling me childish and then denying that he had ever said fuck you in the first place. He kept carrying on and getting louder and louder, and I just said to him, calmly, "Just do the work right the first time, and it won't get re-assigned to you."
And he carried on again, ending with, "Don't talk to me from now on unless it's about work!", then trying to add little barbs here and there after he said this

I don't know, I tried to stay calm, and he kept getting louder and louder with his tantrum while calling me childish and denying he had ever said anything wrong in the first place.
It was like arguing with a liberal!

What should I do? Just ignore the whole thing? Say something to my boss when he gets back from vacation?

Need some advice folks!
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:30:14 AM EDT
I don't know if you are 'officially' in charge while your boss is gone. If so, document the work quality problems with HR, and include both of his tantrums, including the names of all witnesses. This isn't going to go away and is only going to get worse.

If you don't have the authority to 'write him up', notify your boss as soon as he returns, infact put it in writing to him, exactly like above, and demand that the problem be addressed before it escalates.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:31:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 9:32:04 AM EDT by AeroE]
Document the incident with date, times, location, the names of the customers present, a description of the incident, and the precise words said. Give it to your boss and let him do his job.

The coworker's age and AA's are irrelevant.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:32:30 AM EDT
DOCUMENT HIS ACTIONS!!! Reduce them to writing now. Time, date, circumstances & withnesses. You need to request a mgt with your supv "at his earliest convenience" apon his return.

You are dealing with a short fused whako, watch your back.


"We just hired a guy at 2 pay-grades below mine"

Is he still in a probationary period where he can be dismissed promptly?
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:33:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 9:38:34 AM EDT by senorFrog]
Draw down on them.

BTW, I see you are 25, he's 30-ish. Don't let him intimidate you or turn this around on you. Go to HR ASAP. Explain your boss it out and your haveing issues w/this employee. Have them state your companies policy re a respectful workplace to him. I would not allow him to undermine your authority or make you look childish in front of superiors. Also, don't have it out with him one-on-one. Doesn't sound like he listens to reason.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:33:12 AM EDT
Since your boss leaves you running the show when he's gone, get him to give you disciplinary authority for when he IS gone, and then take it from there.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:34:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By neilfj:
I don't know if you are 'officially' in charge while your boss is gone. If so, document the work quality problems with HR, and include both of his tantrums, including the names of all witnesses. This isn't going to go away and is only going to get worse.

If you don't have the authority to 'write him up', notify your boss as soon as he returns, infact put it in writing to him, exactly like above, and demand that the problem be addressed before it escalates.



This sounds good except the "demand" part. I'd leave it up to the boss what to do, you're just letting him know.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:34:15 AM EDT
I'm thinking of two words:

The first one is 'draw' and the second one is 'down'.


In the twisted world of HR, the first one to complain is usually looked at as the victim.

Be first.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:40:38 AM EDT
Don't listen to there dumbasses. Kick him in the nuts, THEN draw down. It is so simple.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:43:48 AM EDT
"Draw down, draw down...yadda yadda yadda..."

Pistol-whipping is truly a lost art.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:44:06 AM EDT
Why are you doing his work? You are facilitating his existance. Let him slide, do you own work and if there is problem that you cant deal with because he did do his share then point it out to your super.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:44:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 9:44:55 AM EDT by sae057]
Set his desktop background to the photo gallery you and his sister made of you violating his sister 4 different ways?

Or......maybe just report it to HR.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:46:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 9:48:31 AM EDT by kaizoku]

Originally Posted By AeroE:

The coworker's age and AA's are irrelevant.



I only mentioned it because I think a possible reason for his animosity would be due to him being older and having degrees, but making less money than someone 6 years younger with no degrees. He did mention yesterday, before the incident, that he had been a little jealous of me because I hold a higher paygrade.

Thanks for the advice folks, my boss will know first thing Monday morning when he gets back.

Lucky for me, I do have a witness for today, the co-worker forgot about someone who hadn't left the room...now I just need to track down the officers from yesterday.

Draw down, should have seen it coming!
Unfortunately, the .gov prefers their servants unarmed, so it isn't an option...although I could always use a stapler instead
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:48:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By neilfj:
I don't know if you are 'officially' in charge while your boss is gone. If so, document the work quality problems with HR, and include both of his tantrums, including the names of all witnesses. This isn't going to go away and is only going to get worse.

If you don't have the authority to 'write him up', notify your boss as soon as he returns, infact put it in writing to him, exactly like above, and demand that the problem be addressed before it escalates.



This sounds good except the "demand" part. I'd leave it up to the boss what to do, you're just letting him know.



Agreed. Just get it documented.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:50:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 9:50:31 AM EDT by senorFrog]
Good luck. Let us know what happens.

Maybe give your boss half the morning to settle down but def talk to him first before this a-hole does. OR send him an email now BRIEFLY describing the problem and requesting to speak to him Monday Am re resolution. Then wait for him to come get you when you he has time.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:50:53 AM EDT
And then Becky said....

That bitch!!!

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:55:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 9:57:27 AM EDT by The_Reaper]

Originally Posted By kaizoku:

Yesterday, I was fixing something he messed up, and I was calmly trying to explain how he needed to do it in the future when he started arguing and raising his voice and said "Fuck You!" in front of several Majors and Lt Cols.

Need some advice folks!



Get the names of the witnesses, and file a grievance.

You have witnesses. Use them NOW.


I'll be keeping an eye on this thread to see if you have any updates.
I'm curious to see what happens.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:01:52 AM EDT
You said the boss made it clear you run the shop while he is gone, correct ? It was for a reason and that reason is he trusted you. Trust him to do the right thing, tell him
This may sound like a broken record (does anyone still listen to "records") but WRITE down what happened and give it to the boss when he asks you how things went. In your written record details count, names of ALL people involved (included the clients), time, place and EXACT verbage used by both parties. Make sure its dated and in a form that is clear and complete.

Your NOT a snitch this pin head should have NEVER done that in front of clients. I would want to know how things went while I was gone.

Good luck
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:13:45 AM EDT
The guy sounds like a major asshole that needs to get his ass kicked.

Document, document, document.

Put the whole thing on your bosses desk when he gets back.

It's strange. I've almost always been the oldest guy around in the jobs I've had and it's never once mattered to me what someones age, experience or paycheck was as to how I behaved around them. All I care about is that they do the job and treat me OK in the process.

I've had wet behind the ear kids that were great and I've had "old timers" that should have taken out back and shot for being such rude, arrogant, condescending tin plated gods with delusions of grandeur.

Some people are so damned hung up with "form over substance" that it makes me sick.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:19:03 AM EDT
Document everything including the witnesses that overheard the FU. Write down everything.
Make it look very professional because it will come down to your word over his. Don't let him know
you are documenting so he will not have anything to back up his side when he gets called on the carpet.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:34:17 AM EDT
Probably doesn't matter if he is off Civil Service probation
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:45:35 AM EDT
Just find his mistakes and send them up the chain. It obvious he wants to get fired for poor performance.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:52:09 AM EDT
REPORT his ass to HR



You tried to reason with the asshole, now drop the hammer
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:54:24 AM EDT
I had an issue with someone a few years ago.

I was a lead consultant with consultants in my group working for the customer. I had one consultant that spent 6 of 8 hours a day away from her desk. She should come in late. Spend an hour at her desk (on the phone or surfing). Then go to lunch and come back an hour before it was time to leave. Needless to say, her work was sub par and causing others in the group to pick up the slack.

I documented her activities for 2 weeks and finally went to the boss (customer). After that, they had a heart to heart and her performance improved for a couple months. Her contract ended and wasn't renewed.

It's always a difficult thing to do. But it must be done. Talk to your boss camly and professionally.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 11:10:21 AM EDT
Draw down !!

Ok, now let me go back and read the situation.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 11:12:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 11:18:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By huggybro:
Don't let him know
you are documenting so he will not have anything to back up his side when he gets called on the carpet.



Bad idea. It is a federal law that he be notified that you are documenting his actions. Afer the fact is okay just so long as he is notified.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 11:27:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zardoz:
Since your boss leaves you running the show when he's gone, get him to give you disciplinary authority for when he IS gone, and then take it from there.



Big +1!!! Tell your boss if he doesn't do this he is 'hamstringing' you and making your job extremely difficult.

As it is right now it looks like you are stuck between a rock and a hard place, I was in a similar perdicament as you are now, it turned out the 'boss' was just using me to do his dirty work.

After I figured this out, I just let the assholes do as they pleased, when the boss tried to get on my ass for their poor performance, I told him that I didn't have the authority to 'make' them do otherwise.

I continued to do my job, and just my job, he didn't fix the problem and soon was let go. In the end I got his job complete with raise and the authority. I made it clear that things would be my way or the highway, needless to say, the few that didn't get with the program were replaced......
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 11:50:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By neilfj:
I don't know if you are 'officially' in charge while your boss is gone. If so, document the work quality problems with HR, and include both of his tantrums, including the names of all witnesses. This isn't going to go away and is only going to get worse.

If you don't have the authority to 'write him up', notify your boss as soon as he returns, infact put it in writing to him, exactly like above, and demand that the problem be addressed before it escalates.

+1 in all respects. And to the topic starter - you better learn how to effectively deal with / shut down this kind of shit, if you expect to be 'in charge' of anything.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 12:06:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rayra:

Originally Posted By neilfj:
I don't know if you are 'officially' in charge while your boss is gone. If so, document the work quality problems with HR, and include both of his tantrums, including the names of all witnesses. This isn't going to go away and is only going to get worse.

If you don't have the authority to 'write him up', notify your boss as soon as he returns, infact put it in writing to him, exactly like above, and demand that the problem be addressed before it escalates.

+1 in all respects. And to the topic starter - you better learn how to effectively deal with / shut down this kind of shit, if you expect to be 'in charge' of anything.



+1 and if you don't get this under control and fast you will lose any credability with anybody else in the office.... This should result in a written warning for misconduct and if the company is small I would expect some companies would fire for behavior like that...
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:25:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sslocal:

Originally Posted By huggybro:
Don't let him know
you are documenting so he will not have anything to back up his side when he gets called on the carpet.



Bad idea. It is a federal law that he be notified that you are documenting his actions. Afer the fact is okay just so long as he is notified.



WHAT? Since when is it illegal to take notes about what someone else is doing?
It isn't as if he is using video or audio recorders. Just taking notes.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 4:41:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rayra:
And to the topic starter - you better learn how to effectively deal with / shut down this kind of shit, if you expect to be 'in charge' of anything.



No worries there, 6 years in the Navy taught me to "effectively handle and shutdown" this kind of shit...it's a little different in the civilian world though, especially the world of .gov employment...unfortunately.

What's really bad is that I'm moving back to Oregon and only have 3 months left at this job, and they'll be shorthanded after I leave, so no matter what, he'll still be around, pulling this shit.

The guy he replaced was so lazy that all he did was sit at his desk and work on college classes over the internet, and it took 3 months before we could get rid of him...and he quit before he could get fired.

Just thinking about this guy trying to egg me on to fight him at work and raising his voice and then calling ME childish has me all steamed up

I miss "fan room counseling"
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 5:12:25 PM EDT
CYAWP

Cover
Your
Ass – or Accusations
With
Paperwork

Document EVERYTHING!
If your co-worker fouls up make sure it is properly logged in as His fault.
Everything else is pretty obvious.
Let HIM get Let HIM get disciplined, not you.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 5:18:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kaizoku:

Originally Posted By rayra:
And to the topic starter - you better learn how to effectively deal with / shut down this kind of shit, if you expect to be 'in charge' of anything.



No worries there, 6 years in the Navy taught me to "effectively handle and shutdown" this kind of shit...it's a little different in the civilian world though, especially the world of .gov employment...unfortunately.

What's really bad is that I'm moving back to Oregon and only have 3 months left at this job, and they'll be shorthanded after I leave, so no matter what, he'll still be around, pulling this shit.

The guy he replaced was so lazy that all he did was sit at his desk and work on college classes over the internet, and it took 3 months before we could get rid of him...and he quit before he could get fired.

Just thinking about this guy trying to egg me on to fight him at work and raising his voice and then calling ME childish has me all steamed up

I miss "fan room counseling"



Eff that. You a navy boy or bad ass seaman? Scream right back at this bumb. If he can't be fired and you're stuck with him mine as well let him know not to eff with you.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 5:56:36 PM EDT
You're both GS, right?

First, as everyone else said, document.



Second--use the system for you. If he screamed and/or threatened you, go to civpers folks and file a harrassment/grievance. He has created a hostile work environment, right?

Next--ask your boss if you can see his COREDOC/position description. IIRC, that's job-specific--there shouldn't be any personal info on there. Compare his COREDOC to yours, make sure you've got legal leg to stand on, and that you do in fact have the authority to direct his work and discipline as required. The boss may have made you second in charge in reality, but you should make sure you also have the legal guns to back that up.

Next--don't talk to him anymore. Email him for EVERYTHING, tasks and directions to rework--and include your boss in the Blind Courtesy Copy field--or in the CC field, your choice if you want to be obvious about it or not. Take extra-special care to document in the emails why he has to rework something. "On MMDDYY, I directed you to do X. Capt Schmitty came to me yesterday and told me it was done incorrectly. Please reaccomplish the work by MMDDYY."

These emails not only help your boss show how much of a slacker he is, but also becomes your documentation when it comes time for performance review, etc.

If you do have to talk to him, never do it without someone else in the room, or at least with the door open.

If all else fails, have your boss sit down with you & him and lay it on the table. Your boss MUST tell him, directly, that A) you're in charge of his work, B) his crappy work will not be tolerated any more, and C) outbursts like that will not be tolerated either.

Good luck. Managing civilians is fun, even if you're one yourself.

Link Posted: 8/24/2005 6:20:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Zardoz:
"Draw down, draw down...yadda yadda yadda..."

Pistol-whipping is truly a lost art.



thanks, I needed a laugh
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 6:55:44 PM EDT
There are plenty of tools to deal with GS employees.

The best shaping tool is a counseling form, for positive both negative actions, in order to shape and frame what is expected from both the subordinate and the supervisor. That means you and the new guy should have had counseling actions during initial hire and quarterly, afterward, more frequently if needed.

It helps get all the cards on the table.

It doesn't sound to me like you have any official supervisory responsibility, although it can be a collateral duty not specified in your job description, but should be a bullet on your counselings at a minimum. If supervisory duties comprise more than 30%, it should be in writing as part of your job description. You would most likely be responsible for counselling the new employee and write his eval, which would give you some leverage over him.

You should also attend a supervisors class, which would provide you guidelines on how to deal with situations like this.

Jim
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 8:43:17 PM EDT
I didn't read all the replys or the rest of your message. As soon as you said "fuck" all of your credibility and supposed authority was thrown out the window. It sounds like you need to learn how to deal with subordinates that may have different ideals than you do.

M.L.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 9:25:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By logem:
I didn't read all the replys or the rest of your message. As soon as you said "fuck" all of your credibility and supposed authority was thrown out the window. It sounds like you need to learn how to deal with subordinates that may have different ideals than you do.

M.L.



Might be in your interest to actually read the whole post before wasting time commenting on it.

You're confused about who said fuck to whom, me thinks.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 3:05:28 AM EDT
Let me get this straight: he said "F*ck You!" in front of CUSTOMERS?????

Why are you on this board instead of at HR getting this guy fired???????
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 4:29:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AeroE:
Document the incident with date, times, location, the names of the customers present, a description of the incident, and the precise words said. Give it to your boss and let him do his job.

The coworker's age and AA's are irrelevant.



Big +111111111111!
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 5:17:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By logem:
I didn't read all the replys or the rest of your message. As soon as you said "fuck" all of your credibility and supposed authority was thrown out the window. It sounds like you need to learn how to deal with subordinates that may have different ideals than you do.

M.L.



MY credibility and authority is out the window because HE said "Fuck you" to ME?

It sounds like you need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 5:29:30 AM EDT
I completely agree with everyone else who has suggested that you "paper trail" the guy.

Just be factual with your documentation and don't add in any "editorial opinions."

Also, I would suggest NOT talking with your boss about this or making any "demands" for more authority. Don't comment about your asshole coworker AT ALL.

You'll come off as far more professional if you document the events, then simpy say to your boss: "An unfortunate incident occurred while you were away. I've documented it here. Let me know if you need more information." Then just leave it at that.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 5:37:38 AM EDT
I would echo the advice to document his actions and yours and also advise you to sit down with your direct supervisor and discuss the chain of command. How are you suppose to handle simple discretions? Have an open communication with your supervisor and be careful how you discuss this with him. Make sure you come across as professional and not a tattle tell or whiner.

Best of luck. Oh and also do not let his age or degree intimidate you. Patty
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 8:19:39 AM EDT
Thanks again for all the advice folks.

I'll post an update after I talk with my boss.

Patty, what part of Oregon are you from? I'm from the Rogue Valley, and moving back in December, can't wait!
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 8:27:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kaizoku:
Thanks again for all the advice folks.

I'll post an update after I talk with my boss.

Patty, what part of Oregon are you from? I'm from the Rogue Valley, and moving back in December, can't wait!



You're not listening to the advice. Don't just talk to the boss. Get it on paper. DOCUMENT!!! Even after you're gone, the paper trail will still be there. Yes, talk to your boss, but also, hand him a copy of the report you've already filed.
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