How would a LEO know it's a pre-ban? How to CYA?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How would a LEO know it's a pre-ban? How to CYA?

Posted: 4/27/2001 9:48:30 PM EDT

My pre-ban PWA started out as a full size AR15
it has since changed to a M4 {semi}.
How would a Law Enforcement Officer know this is
a pre-ban rifle? Is their any way to get paperwork from the manufacturer stating it's a pre-ban to help smooth things along if a person gets questioned about their weapon?

Posted: 4/27/2001 9:59:56 PM EDT

[#1]

They have to prove that it's an illegally configured weapon. Let them sort it out.

Or-

Get a Palm Pilot or Handspring Visor and download the AR15 serial number list into your PDA.

Carry it with you when you travel with your AR.

Posted: 4/27/2001 11:46:50 PM EDT

[#2]

Face it..the ball is in their court. All they have to do is suspect that it is an illegal weapon and the burden of proof is on you (as usual). Carry documentation with your firearm at all times and you might save yourself a huge hassle.

Posted: 4/28/2001 3:38:52 AM EDT

[#3]

Innocent Before Proven guilty!
the STATE has to prove its illegal.

Posted: 4/28/2001 4:15:44 AM EDT

[#4]

So how would they know if a "home made" lower is pre or post, since it has no serial # or markings. Would the owner have to prove that he made it before the ban.

Posted: 4/28/2001 4:49:30 AM EDT

[#5]

all they would have to prove is that it's a AW as per the '94 ban,you will have to prove that it was made as a complete firearm or was a complete kit prior to the ban to be a legal grandfathered firearm.mmk

Posted: 4/28/2001 4:55:52 AM EDT

[#6]

Originally Posted By madman kirk:
all they would have to prove is that it's a AW as per the '94 ban,you will have to prove that it was made as a complete firearm or was a complete kit prior to the ban to be a legal grandfathered firearm.mmk

View Quote

"Bought the 80% lower from a guy at a gunshow in Raliegh, NC some time around '90 and I bought the upper from Model 1 at a Greensboro, NC show sometime in '91. Paid cash for both and if I had any reciptes, I lost them during several moves. Had it together right away and been shooting it ever since."

Just make sure your supplier "Model 1" or whoever else actually has been to a show that you mention.

Posted: 4/28/2001 6:17:57 AM EDT

[#7]

Is their any way to get paperwork from the manufacturer stating it's a pre-ban to help smooth things along if a person gets questioned about their weapon?

View Quote

If the manufacturer is still in business they can give you a letter certifying that the rifle was indeed built by them before the ban. That is if it left the manufacturers as a complete rifle. They may charge you for the paperwork, as much as $25. If you're sure it is a factory built gun try giving them a call. That is if they are still in business.

Posted: 4/28/2001 7:54:34 AM EDT

[#8]

Why do you people worry so much about some LEO noticing if you have a pre or post ban configured weapon? How many times has an officer come up to you to look at your gun to see what you're shooting? The only way this would happen is if you were committing some other crime and had your illegal weapon with you. Stop being so paranoid. The cops are NOT out there looking for flashhiders on post ban AR's!

Posted: 4/28/2001 8:07:55 AM EDT

[#9]

[size=4]AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/SIZE=4]

All the cop needs is probable cause. Not guilt or innocence. You can't be guilty without being haled into court first! We don't (yet) have in absentia criminal liability.

Listen to Reloader! There are no cops looking for cross-ban weapons as a matter of departmental policy. What WILL happen is every time some poor schmo with "AWs" gets busted, [i]then[/i] they will be looked at. It will be just like what happens for stolen guns when shooting at the range. When's the last time you heard about anybody get caught with a stolen gun? What were the circumstances? It will be like that.

Just like that.

Posted: 4/28/2001 8:16:36 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Innocent Before Proven guilty!
the STATE has to prove its illegal.

View Quote

Yea, Sure, You know as well as everyone else they can do anything they want to and you have to prove otherwise, the old saying "tell it to the Judge" comes to mind, or "reasonable suspicion". Most are OK as far as the gun goes but do something to piss them off and they will find something. If the weapon is questionable get paperwork proving it legal and keep it in the buttstock. AKA-C.Y.A.

Posted: 4/28/2001 8:18:28 AM EDT

[#11]

I have legal preban and postban ARs. When I'm at the range or at a match, I always keep the serial# side down on the bench or mat. Saftey first, the chamber with an OBI in it is up!
*Very* bad form to reach for someone elses rifle, especially when everybody is armed :)
As for normal LEO's (not ATF), %90 of them wouldn't have a clue. I'm also convinced at least %30 of FFL dealers are clueless also.

Posted: 4/28/2001 8:29:05 AM EDT

[#12]

Guys, the AW ban is a FEDERAL law. The only people who can arrest you for violating it are federal agents, unless there is a corresponding state law where you live. About the only way you're gonna get busted for having pre-ban features on a post-ban gun is if you commit another crime with said weapon and get it seized as evidence, and somebody at the state level takes the time to figure out your weapon violates the slime bill (assuming they know how to), then calls BATF. And that's assuming BATF wants to take the case. I've had cases where I've caught convicted felons with sawed-off shotguns, slam-dunk case, and BATF said they weren't interested.

And the burden of proof is on the feds to prove it's an illegal rifle, and also that you should have known it's illegal. Difficult case to prove in many instances, as there are lots of defenses you could bring.

Posted: 4/28/2001 8:49:07 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Guys, the AW ban is a FEDERAL law. The only people who can arrest you for violating it are federal agents

View Quote

I hope you dont really believe that.

Posted: 4/28/2001 9:01:48 AM EDT

[#14]

Ditto. You can be arrested for anything.

Posted: 4/28/2001 9:25:58 AM EDT

[#15]

You can believe what you want, but state and local LEO's have no authority to arrest for federal crimes, unless there has been an arrest warrant issued by a federal judge. The exception is if the officer is part of a task force involving the feds, and then they generally get endowed with federal enforcement authority for the duration of their time on that task force. The U.S. Attorneys generally regard state and local LEO's as not being competent to enforce federal laws unless they are under direct supervision of 'superior beings' from federal agencies.

Posted: 4/28/2001 10:11:48 AM EDT

[#16]

Sparky is correct. Federal agents can not arrest for state laws or local crimes and vice versa unless there is a mutual agreement in place within a jurisdiction (like local cops at a VA hospital) or a state law provides for this.
Warrants can be served by any competant LEO. My state has made the AW into part of its state laws....but I can not think of a single arrest ever for someone on just a AW charge.
Seriously, almost no cop is going to go after your you or your guns unless you give him reason to. Almost every single gun owner I have ever met is an upstanding citizen and would never ever find himself in a situation.
If you create a situation where the cops have to check out your guns and anything else for illegal activity...what do you want..sympathy for being a criminal?

Posted: 4/28/2001 10:30:43 AM EDT

[#17]

Cops all take the oath to protect and defend the Constitution, which includes the inalienable rights in the 2nd Amendment. If they violate their oath, then they become an occupying paramilitary force.

Posted: 4/28/2001 10:41:28 AM EDT

[#18]

There seems to be a widespread misconception that state and local LEO's are involved in a nation-wide conspiracy to deprive everyone of their second amendment rights. Anyone who has been a member of the law enforcement community knows what a joke that is. The feds and locals generally don't like or trust each other, and hold each other in contempt. Many local agencies can't get along with each other, especially neighboring jurisdictions. Infighting is common, and the politics sometimes mind-blowing.

Imbroglio, bite me. Dude asks a serious question, and here you come with your armchair commando bullshit. Sometimes you sound suspiciously like a troll.

Posted: 4/28/2001 12:44:36 PM EDT

[#19]

What's so armchair commando about asking police to uphold their oath of office? Seems pretty civic-minded to me. Actually, I can't get the local paper to print anything about local politicians failing at this basic duty. I guess I'm a right wing kook also...

Thank god for the inter-agency infighting. If they ever got their act together, all law-abiding citizens would be toast.

I still worry sometimes that I'll get pulled by some goofy cop for a taillight out or something and he'll want to search my vehicle on the way to/from the range. When I say "No fucking way" he is then going to impound my pickup. I'll then be charged with violating some bullshit law about safe storage (I refuse to get a CCW in NC unless they lift the fingerprinting and notice of change of address requirements--I'm not a sex offender). The law as to what is and what is not a concealed weapon in NC is very, very vague. Since I don't have a trunk, it's basically at the officer's discretion. Keeping a loaded gun on the seat in plain view is okay, putting it behind the seat is not. Go figure. Which one is more likely to scare the hell out of a cop pulling you over? I just put the AR in its soft case, with the ammo separate. If that's not good enough for them, nothing will be. I don't have a cap, so the back bed is open. Not a good place to store your rifles.

I am very wary of law enforcement around here, even if some are pro-gun, they are still anti-citizen. Budgets are strained and they are looking for any way to pick up some extra $$$. Plus, many are anti-drug nazis whose heads are filled with all kinds of statist crap. I live in an anti-gun county with anti-gun DA and lots of MMM sypmathizers. I hope to one day leave this socialist utopian hell and move to a more reasonable county.

Sorry to get off the pre/post topic.

Posted: 4/28/2001 1:14:45 PM EDT

[#20]

Originally Posted By Mike T:
Sparky is correct. Federal agents can not arrest for state laws or local crimes and vice versa unless there is a mutual agreement in place within a jurisdiction

View Quote

Not so. Fed and state courts have concurrent jurisdiction on a wide variety of matters- both civil and criminal (along with the requirement to must show affect on interstate commerce). No agreement is necessary, although they often cooperate and coordinate prosecutions to avoid duplicity. For example, I have a federal cocaine possession case right now (occured on a Naval base- Damn Neck) that is about to go to the state court (it's usually the other way around). No agreement, just concurrent jurisdiction and a phone call. The prosecutor will simply nol prosse the charge and my guy will be indicted in the Virginia Beach Circuit Court. Sux 'cause the charge is a misdemeanor in federal court and a felony in state court. Nothin I can do about it.

The second part of your post is right on. The original question posed by Shadow45 assumes two things, to-wit: 1) LE has time to worry about post/pre ban configuration violators and, 2) they really give a sh*t. Both are usually false assumptions. I point this out to argue that LE is not going to actively look for a violator, however, not as an excuse to break the law. It's not worth it; better safe than sorry. I'm often asked to cite cases involving a prosecution of such a violation, based on that alone. I can never find any; the only ones I know of are ancillary to major drug felonies (ie. they are tag-a-long crimes).

YardDogOne,

I strongly disagree.

Posted: 4/28/2001 1:33:17 PM EDT

[#21]

Steve is right- concurrent jurisdiction frequently exists, but only when there is a state statute that makes the same conduct a crime as the federal statute. If your state has no 'assault weapons' law, then there can't be any state prosecutions for that offense. And you can't be arrested just for possessing one by a state or local LEO, unless they are acting in some sort of federal capacity.

He is also right in that most LEO's don't give a shit about the ban- we've got better things to do. Many don't even know half of its provisions, and most cops that I know think it sucks just as much as you guys do.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that all cops are now your enemy if you're a gunowner- t'aint so. Even a lot of the non-BATF feds think that law is BS. Instead of bitching about the cops potentially violating your rights by enforcing this law, work to get it changed. The attitude taken by some on this board will do nothing but drive a wedge between LEO and non-LEO gunowners, which doesn't help anybody but the opposition.

And I don't think Imbroglio's post was 'civic-minded'- he's just trying to stir up the same old 'us versus the evil police' argument that has frankly been beaten to death on this board.

Posted: 4/28/2001 2:05:02 PM EDT

[#22]

I am not doing any such thing. It is similar to the effects of concealed weapons. Criminals will not know who is carrying a gun and therefore have to worry about getting shot by a potential victim.

Only in the case of firearms, gun owners have to feel like potential criminals and don't know which cops are upholding their oath and which are going to act like JBT.

Posted: 4/28/2001 2:34:35 PM EDT

[#23]

Yeah, actually, you are. Shadow45 asked a specific question about how he should document his rifle's pre-ban status, and you popped off with your 'occupying army of cops' post that was not helpful in the slightest. The only possible purpose behind that post was to stir the pot yet again.

Posted: 4/28/2001 2:54:59 PM EDT

[#24]

Like I said in my previous post....Fed law and state laws are different things. There has to be a law to enable one or the other or you have concurrent jurisdiction (Which I called the mutual agreement so to be non-technical)
Steve- I'll bet you have some sort of empowerment law in your statute or constitution. We do not.
And, if I may, the readers here should note you have three LEO's on this subject, all from different areas, all with different laws. I will include myself in the group with Steve and Sparky as sounding reasonably intelligent (although I have been called other things).
Each one of us, in one way or another, has stated that the gun grabbing mentality amongst your municipal/state cops does not exist. Doesn't happen, period. Read what Steve said again about that. It is true.
As we have come forward to state this, I feel any attempts to create the US vs Them attitude are wrong. And, to be honest, I did not take Imbroglios post as being that way. MAn just stated his opinion-I read no further into it.
We are not your enemies....heck I'll bet I went hunting or shooting with a bunch of guys on this board.
Further-please take to heart Sparky's post. Use your energy to change the laws, not create enemies where there are none.
Enough talking....Steve or Sparky-if you are upset by my inclusion of you gents, I apologize.
God Bless America.

Posted: 4/28/2001 3:02:14 PM EDT

[#25]

Mike T, I was not offended at all. Yours was a well-written post. I still think Imbroglio is a pot-stirrer, though. Considerably more articulate than Andreusan, but still a pot-stirrer.

Posted: 4/28/2001 3:07:22 PM EDT

[#26]

If you can, get paperwork proving that it's a pre-ban. I'm a cop, and the mentallity is "if it's on paper, it must be O.K." Most cops that have a lick of sense know that a semi-auto rifle spits out the same number of rounds whether or not it has a folding stock, bayonet lug, collapsible stock, hi-cap mag, etc. I for one am more worried about a guy(or gal) with a bolt-action rifle that knows how to use it than I am about a 16 year old peckerwood with an SKS that doesn't know how to use it. The "assault weapons" ban is a stupid, feel-good law, and I will be happy if it sunsets. I have to live under the same idiotic laws that you do, and I'm about sick of it.

Posted: 4/28/2001 3:30:14 PM EDT

[#27]

Most of us could care less. I'm not going to check because its a BS law that should never have been passed. I have too much other stuff to worry about to check your bayonet lug. We really REALLY REALLY don't give a f^&%.

There is no conspiracy. Black helicopters are actually FS34031 Green Drab. Clinton's gone. Reno's GONE. Mcvey's almost gone. Give it a friggin rest.

Posted: 4/28/2001 10:02:39 PM EDT

[#28]

Thanks to everyone who posted a helpful reply!
I am just trying to avoid any unforeseen problems. The police officer's that patrol
my crappy neighborhood have no idea that I have no criminal record, class D/G/W licenses, work corporate security, and I am a student of Criminal Justice, So having the right paperwork would probably save me a lot of time in the event the officer has no idea what he is looking at.If you think that won't happen let me tell you about the time I got pulled over
and the officer was checking out my USP Tactical..........:)

Posted: 4/29/2001 6:51:28 AM EDT

[#29]

Originally Posted By Mike T:
. . . any attempts to create the US vs Them attitude are wrong. And, to be honest, I did not take Imbroglios post as being that way. MAn just stated his opinion-I read no further into it.
We are not your enemies....heck I'll bet I went hunting or shooting with a bunch of guys on this board.

View Quote

Amen.

People should scrutinize their choice of "enemy" before launching salvos.

Posted: 4/29/2001 8:01:12 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
You can believe what you want, but state and local LEO's have no authority to arrest for federal crimes.....

View Quote

And what about bank robbery on an FDIC institution?

Consult an attorney.

Posted: 4/29/2001 8:17:06 AM EDT

[#31]

Last time I got stopped for a traffic violation, the only thing they wanted to establish was that mine was not an NFA weapon. I don't think they even cared if it was preban or what. It was a preban but they never asked.

Posted: 4/29/2001 9:31:23 AM EDT

[#32]

My father-in-law and myself were pulled over by a state trooper on the way to go shooting a couple of months ago for his tail light being out. Realistically, we had approximately 50 rifles, 20-25 handguns and about 10 shotguns with us along with 15k rounds or so of ammo and the various targets, the skeet thrower, tools shooting bags full of mags etc...You get the picture. His van was literally full of guns and of course we both had one concealed on our hip (CHL).

After seeing all the guns as he walked up and asking if we were on our way to go shooting he basically said, "Well damn guys, if I hadnt just come on shift I would take off early and head out with yall. It looks like yall are gonna have some fun today". And that was it. Told him to get the tail light fixed and for us to have fun.

God I love Texas....

Michael

Posted: 4/29/2001 9:48:30 AM EDT

[#33]

ponyboy i need to move to texas.mmk

Posted: 4/29/2001 10:26:08 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
You can believe what you want, but state and local LEO's have no authority to arrest for federal crimes.....

View Quote

And what about bank robbery on an FDIC institution?

Consult an attorney.

View Quote

I think you misunderstood exactly what he was saying. Of course state/local LE, in your example, could arrest the bank robbery and charge him with robbery under a state statute. That's not what Spanky was saying; he was saying that the state/local LE would not (and could not) arrest the guy and charge him with violating the federal code. That would be outside their own jurisdictional bailiwick.

Spanky, I hope I did not take too much liberty with what you were saying, however, I thought it was clear. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

Posted: 4/29/2001 11:35:04 AM EDT

[#35]

You got it right, Steve- that was exactly my point. I haven't been called "Spanky" in a long time, though! :)

Posted: 4/29/2001 11:55:16 AM EDT

[#36]

Oops, sorry about that, [i]Sparky[/i].

Posted: 4/29/2001 12:28:56 PM EDT

[#37]

And the burden of proof is on the feds to prove it's an illegal rifle, and also that you should have known it's illegal. Difficult case to prove in many instances, as there are lots of defenses you could bring.

View Quote

The only burden of proof the feds must meet is to prove (1) that you are in possession of the rifle, and (2) the rifle in question has the ability to accept a detachable mag and two additional assault features. Doesn't mater whether its pre-ban or not - the burden of proof is on the defendant to show they possessed a 'grandfathered' weapon if they want to escape prosecution. Read 922(v) carefully - posession of any statutorily defined "assault rifle" is a felony...UNLESS the possessor can prove the rifle was in that configuration prior to 9-13-94.

Posted: 4/29/2001 12:42:13 PM EDT

[#38]

Nope. It isn’t so - we're all guilty otherwise.

Unless we all had our pre-bans in the desk sergeant’s hands at our local police office, fully assembled, and got his signature and a photograph to boot at midnight 14 September 1994 who's to say that at the stroke of midnight that it wasn't assembled for that very minute?

Posted: 4/29/2001 1:43:16 PM EDT

[#39]

Only 1 in a million would be able to spot your illegal AR unless you are commiting a crime. Then it would be illegal anyway and certainly confiscated. What you have to worry about is some "rogue" cop out there that want's to take it to confirm it's legality. Here in SC, they don't give a crap, period (unless it's full auto). Now if you sell it, then you might get nailed for it.

Posted: 4/29/2001 2:03:56 PM EDT

[#40]

Paul -

I sugest you read 18 USC 922(v) very carefully. Now compare to 922(o) and the burden of proofs as regards posession of machineguns. There are dozens of guys who have been prosecuted under 922(o) because they got caught with their legally possessed machinegun, but couldn't produce an original copy of their paperwork.

Now I'm not saying they necessarily have to prosecute these or that the gov't would push the law to those limits if you were caught, but thats the way the law is written - they have the power to do so if they wish.

Now unlike an NFA weapon where there is specific proofs (approved form 4)that are necessary for legal possession, here you only need enough proof (testimony, receipts, etc.) to convince a jury of your peers.

Posted: 4/29/2001 2:13:22 PM EDT

[#41]

I would think that reasonable doubt could be raised about pre-ban status if the lower was sold prior to 9/94

1) wouldn't the lower at least be test fitted by the manufacturer prior to sale?

2) wouldn't most buyers do a test fit?

3) Very few if any uppers prior to 9/94 would be non evil feature guns, so any test fitting would be with AW uppers.

4) If an officer saw you with an M4gery they would probably make sure you weren't a felon, it wasn't auto, and you weren't up to no good. Why do you think that the officer would even know evil features? Most that would know the AR-15 would know it from M-16 experience of LEO/GOV'T weapons. I doubt they had a 4 hour block of instruction on the evils if the flash suppresor and what it means to them.

5) It only had to be an AW for 1 second prior to the ban to be pre-ban. If you have a lower from '88 how could anyone really say in 6+ years that wepon was not an AW, not even for a second. Lawyers write laws........ But jury's are citizens that have the final not guilty/guilty say. Juries are often more practical that lawyers.

Posted: 4/29/2001 3:22:15 PM EDT

[#42]

Let me tell you a story.......

A few weeks ago I was outside of my house firing a Cetme rifle. My farm borders city limits. I have a neighbor that lives to the left of me, through the woods, in city limits.
4 magazines into the session, a city cruiser pulls up, and out steps a young male officer, and an older female patrol sergeant. Now, let me set the stage. City has no jurisdiction outside of their limits here. County council pulled the jurisdiction after some disagreements over city enforcement and practices, and after city police harassed a few key players on county council.Anyway, up my driveway pulls the city police. The young male officer steps out, in the middle of my yard, and yells to a man holding a fully locked and loaded cetme,with a walther p99 on his hip, to "
COME HERE!" Well, I kind of looked at him like he was mentally retarted. I honestly don't think he knew he was in the county. Well, I cross slung the rifle across my chest and strolled on over. He then tells me that he is gonna ticket me for firing in city limits. At this point I inform him that he is standing in the county. The patrol sergeant snickers at him.
Well, now he is not happy. Wanna know what his next questions are?
1. What kind of gun is that?
A. Cetme rifle
2. What caliber does it shoot?
A. 7.62
3. Is it full auto
A. No, class 3 machineguns are not legal here, only silencers. ( This gets me a quizzical look)
4. What is class 3?
A. legal NFA firarms.
5. IS THAT AN ASSAULT RIFLE
A. No, it is a 922 R compliant rifle
6. Let me see it
A. No, call the sheriffs dept.
7. What do you mean no?
A. I mean no, you can not see it. If you think it is illegal, call the sheriff.
8. IS IT REGISTERED TO YOU?
A. When did SC start requiring registration, did a law change, I know it isnt federal, federal registration of class 1 is illegal.
9. WHERE IS YOUR PAPERWORK ON IT. I THINK IT IS AN ASSAULT WEAPON.
A. Paperwork is at the gun store where I bought i it from.

Posted: 4/29/2001 3:23:54 PM EDT

[#43]

At this point he asks me where I am from. I told him I was born the next county over and have done some traveling. He looks at me real hard again, warns me not to let any rounds cross over into the city, and leaves.
At this point I call teh county, talk to their patrol Capt. He was not happy. He referres me to city patrol, who was equally as clueless about firearms, so, yes, I took teh time to school him and counter every wrong or bullshit thing he said. He finally , get this, conceded to me that he had no Idea how to even begin to enforce firearms laws. I his him with if he cant recite and enforce them, then why is he sending out officers, in the county, to make up and enforce laws, when they have no idea what they are talking about. Right then and there he informed me that my address now has a do not respond , refer to county. I called county back and gave them the outcome. Have not had a problem since

Point is, for all of the stuff Mr City did not know, he knew about assault weapons, and he was gonna try and nail me with one. He knew he was wrong, and he knew I knew he was fishing. That is why he did not call county. County would have came out, looked around, played with my rifles, said have a nice day, and left. DO NOT THINK that all cops do not know or care about assault weapons. Some do, and some are junior jackboots waiting to happen. A cool cop is great, and what you hear from the police on this board is reassuring, but do not think for a second that their opinion represents all LEO's. They are all diffrent people. what might be kosher with one, may get you reamed by another. Food for thought. BTW, any York County Deputies wanna go shooting?

Posted: 4/29/2001 4:14:04 PM EDT

[#44]

Point taken,

Of course just the way the contact starts should've clued you in that there would be trouble. "hey you with the gun come here!" Real nice. From what you say there wasn't an attempt to check if you had a safe area to shoot, backstop etc, which was probably the real reason they were sent to talk to you.

however you say there was a Sgt. that didn't say anything, Why do you suppose that was?? You seem to say that the county and city officers that you called didn't think that there was any reason to be bothering you.

This is a familiar theme 'tho, you've probably shot there gor years without problems. Now urbal sprawl sets in and somebody living there call the cops because OMG there is gunfire! I thought that was part of the reason people were moving out of the city, to get into the country and be able to enjoy the outddors.

People that don't know guns often have wild fears, bullets that can do anything, riccochet wild etc. But guns are so noisy.... Nex time stupid fires up the lawn mower send mr. questions over to inquire if that is a pre-ban or post-ban lawn mower.

There will always be the exception to the rule.... The contact probably should have ended right after you said "this is ths county..."

City and County agencies often have a much different view/response to weapons because of the areas where they work. City police probably don't contact a lot of people with weapons that aren't up to no-good. Game Wardens talk to lots of people with weapons that are legally hunting, so it's no big deal for them to talk with someone with a gun.

Someone probably got excited...... "man with a gun......."

Posted: 4/29/2001 5:10:35 PM EDT

[#45]

C_Rion. I gotta know what city/county this was so I can avoid it. Sounds like you got a couple of "rogue" cops in your visit. To draw on you is serious enough by itself. I'd bring that up with the chief and ask him to confirm how stable those officers are.

Posted: 4/29/2001 5:36:22 PM EDT

[#46]

C_Rion

Sounds like an ingnorant FTO supervisor and a officer Trainee. When I went through the Field Training and Evaluation Program 3 years ago I would have been pulled off the street for a few weeks for officer safety and legal training.

pat

Posted: 4/29/2001 6:10:15 PM EDT

[#47]

C_Rion-Sorry about that crappy experience you had. From the way the doofus handled the initial contact, he sounded like a green recruit or a seriously badge-heavy dumbass. Unfortunately, you are right- I and the other LEO's here don't represent the opinion of every single other LEO in the country, that would obviously be impossible. There will be some who have a hard-on for 'assault rifles' and may try to hassle you. You handled it great, though- he needed to have his attitude shoved back down his throat. For everyone else who is reading, pay attention to the way C_Rion dealt with this guy. He was polite but firm in refusing to obey this officer's illegal orders, and calmly pointed out to the officer where he was wrong. He didn't give the officer any excuse to continue the illegal contact, and made the appropriate contacts with the higher-ups to prevent it happening again.

It's a sad fact that, like any other profession, we have our share of jerks. Unfortunately, a jerk in our profession can be much more dangerous than some others. I've seen new officers do things similar to this, and I've acted promptly to correct his/her misconception about what our job is. Too often now we are hiring kids straight out of college with little or no real life experience, and expect them to be able to go out and do police work. Quite often, they fail. They think their job is to enforce the law so aggressively that compassion and plain common sense get lost. Our job is to keep the peace and maintain order, not to look for chippy crimes to bust folks for. The younger set frequently forgets that we are PUBLIC SERVANTS, not dictators. When you combine over-zealousness with a lack of common sense and a lack of knowledge about what the job really entails, sometimes disaster ensues. All I can do is apologize and assure you that there are many in the profession who are doing our level best to weed out dickheads like that one- they give us all a bad name, and besides that, are generally a pain in the butt to work with.

Posted: 4/29/2001 6:45:39 PM EDT

[#48]

1) I agree with most of what has been said. The theoretical parts at least, I know nothing about the law.

2)I hear lots of reassuring remarks from LEO’s. But you are LEO’s that post on this site. You are not the “average” LEO that I’m likely to run across IMHO.

3)“I’ve driven home when I was “over the limit” several times. For xx years even. I’ve never been stopped…”

I guess my point is – is it worth it? I have a preban AR but I don’t know that I would ever spend the extra hundreds of dollars for it again.

Yeah, I know it’s your right to do it but I don’t understand people going through all of this anxiety over it.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - How would a LEO know it's a pre-ban? How to CYA?

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