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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/2/2005 10:35:04 AM EDT
LET THEM HAVE A CONTEST LIKE THE ONE THAT IS DESCRIBED IN THE CHRISTIAN'S BIBLE AT 1ST KINGS CHAPTER 18.

FOLLOWING IS A PARAPHRASING OF THAT EVENT AS DESCRIBED ELSEWHERE ON THE WORLD WIDE WEB:

"Bring two bulls. Give one to the prophets of Baal to cut up and offer as sacrifice on the altar but put no fire under the sacrifice. I will cut up another bull and build an alter of stone to offer unto the LORD God but will place no fire under the sacrifice. Let the god who is the real God answer by sending down fire from Heaven to burn up the sacrifice. If Baal can do this let all of the people worship Baal. But if Baal cannot do this let the LORD God send fire from Heaven to consume the sacrifice and let the people worship the LORD God only."

The prophets of Baal placed their cut up bull on their altar of stone and prayed all day for Baal to send down fire from heaven to burn the sacrifice. They leaped about the altar. They cried. They cut themselves with knives to get Baal to answer, but nothing happened.

After hours of prayer Elijah mocked them saying, " Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is meditating, or he is busy, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is sleeping and must be awakened."

Until evening they cried aloud for Baal to answer them without avail. Finally Elijah selected twelve stones to represent the twelve tribes of Israel and built an altar. He made a trench around the altar large enough to hold a great amount of water. He ordered the men to pour four large pots of water over the sacrifice and to run into the trench where it surrounded the altar like a large moat. Three times the men poured four large pots of water over the sacrifice until it filled the trench.

At the time of the evening offering of sacrifice Elijah called out, "LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be know this day that You are God in Israel and I am Your servant, and that I have done all these things at Your word. Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that his people may know that You are the LORD God, and that You have turned their hearts back to You again."

"Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood and the stones and the dust, and it licked up the water that was in the trench." Never had such a water heater been seen in the presence of the people at the request of the prophet of the LORD God.

The people were so astonished that they fell upon their faces and cried out repeatedly,, "The LORD, He is God!"

AND HERE ARE MY PREDICTIONS REGARDING SUCH A CONTEST.

NUMBER 1 IS THAT IT WILL NEVER TAKE PLACE, SINCE NEITHER OF THE TWO PARTIES LISTED IN THE TITLE OF THIS TOPIC, ARE REALLY CONFIDENT THAT EITHER ONE OF THE PARTIES WOULD/COULD BE A WINNER OF THIS CONTEST.

NUMBER 2 IS THAT IF IT WERE TO TAKE PLACE, NEITHER OF THE TWO PARTIES LISTED IN THE TITLE OF THIS TOPIC, WOULD WIN AS DESCRIBED IN THE ABOVE QUOTE AND THEN BOTH PARTIES WOULD HAVE TO START EXPLAINING TO THE PEOPLES WHO INHABIT THIS PLANET WHY THEY HAVE BEEN INSTRUMENTAL IN HAVING US KILLING EACH OTHER OVER "NOTHING" FOR ALL THIS TIME AND THAT UNFORTUNATELY WE ARE HERE ALONE TO EITHER TAKE CARE OF OURSELVES AND EACH OTHER OR TO DESTROY OURSELVES AND EACH OTHER.


Link Posted: 9/2/2005 11:25:42 AM EDT
I would only attempt such a thing if I knew God was telling me to do it.

He is not a monkey on a string to perform tricks at our beck and call.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 11:36:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 2:00:46 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
****Deleted****<va-gunnut>Troll at your own risk...
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 12:31:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
I would only attempt such a thing if I knew God was telling me to do it.

He is not a monkey on a string to perform tricks at our beck and call.



How would he tell you to do this ? Remember, that apparently, Elijah, thought it was the correct thing to do. Basically, what is different about our current situation and the one at Elijah's time ?

It sounds like to me that you fall into category number 1.

Should we just ENDLESSLY go on killing one another over this ? I assure you I am NOT, asking this tongue-in-cheek.
Link Posted: 9/2/2005 12:48:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/2/2005 2:01:39 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]

Originally Posted By Hawker:
****Deleted****<va-gunnut>



Is this the language and spirit that your religious teaching imparts to you ?

If so, it must come from somewhere other than the teachings of Jesus !!!
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 8:45:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wpshooter:

How would he tell you to do this ? Remember, that apparently, Elijah, thought it was the correct thing to do. Basically, what is different about our current situation and the one at Elijah's time ?



Believe me, on occasion I have heard Him. Not daily, but in those few instances it was unmistakable. Can I explain it to you? Probably not, especially considering where you are coming from.


It sounds like to me that you fall into category number 1.


Nope. I'm not taking your bait.


Should we just ENDLESSLY go on killing one another over this ? I assure you I am NOT, asking this tongue-in-cheek.


Are you talking about the killing in this current Jihad and counter-Jihad fighting?

The west lived in relative peace with those of the Islamic faith until elements of Islam decided they were strong enough to strike out against us. This is nothing new. Read the history of Islam and its relations with its neighbors.

For those of the Muslim faith who bear no ill will toward us, I wish no harm upon them.

Those who decide to inflict casualties upon us should not expect to do it with impunity.
Link Posted: 9/3/2005 9:01:18 AM EDT
Just shoot the Muslim terrorist with an AR-15 multiple times, let him bleed out, problem solved.
Link Posted: 9/4/2005 9:54:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KlubMarcus:
Just shoot the Muslim OR CHRISTIAN terrorist with an AR-15 multiple times, let him bleed out, problem solved.



The problem is with those who would use terror as a way to further their cause, not islam.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 1:02:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:
The problem is with those who would use terror as a way to further their cause, not islam.

But this topic specified a Christian capitalist and a Muslim terrorist.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 12:09:24 PM EDT
I think we ought to first start out by re-reading Summa contra gentiles by Thomas Aquinas, written to answer alot of the Muslim's claims.

In short, it's NOT theology that separates us so much as PHILOSOPHY. Their metaphysics (Aristotle-lite) doesn't allow them (or the Jews for that matter) to accept as POSSIBLE that God could become incarnate or be Trinity.

So the entirety of the Christian world view, i.e. that Jesus was more than a prophet, that he was in fact, GOD and Man and that his Father and Spirit are distinct persons.... is simply, for them, insane.

They can't accept that, so everything else - atonement, death on the cross, resurrection, etc. are thrown out as well.

Arguing from a "bible-only" perspective with someone who doesn't believe in the bible as inspired is dead on arrival. A non-starter.

So you have to first go back to basics and show that their METAPHYSICS is wrong, that their theology is based on a presupposition that is flawed and that God can be Father and hence, can have a Son, who came and revealed the truths found in the Gospel to us.

Once you get there, then the Koran and Gospel are back on equal footings as PLAUSIBLE, OR PROBABLE RATHER THAN A CONFLICT BETWEEN TRUTH AND OBVIOUS INSANTITY.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 12:18:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KlubMarcus:

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:
The problem is with those who would use terror as a way to further their cause, not islam.

But this topic specified a Christian capitalist and a Muslim terrorist.



But what about the Christian Socialists and the Islamic Capitalists?
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 1:10:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 2:42:28 PM EDT by VA-gunnut]
***Deleted<va-gunnut>***
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 1:26:01 PM EDT
Well Muslims have been attacking Christian Lands and people for centuries, I don't see how this is likely to change anytime soon unless we step up and actually fight back with more than just PC combat...
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 8:14:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:
I would only attempt such a thing if I knew God was telling me to do it.

He is not a monkey on a string to perform tricks at our beck and call.




If God did tell Brohawk to do it, it would be to win the lost not test God. It would not be a tool to display who God favors or a means to resolve issues but an event to cause the wicked to repent. Vast majority of the Bible is about the redemption of man including 1Kings 18.

    Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

    Deu 6:16 Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah.


Shok
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 10:29:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BenDover:
But what about the Christian Socialists and the Islamic Capitalists?

I would shoot the Socialists first.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 12:16:59 PM EDT
The conflict will end someday.

When Jesus comes to the earth in all power and glory every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that he is The Lord.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:40:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 9:42:27 AM EDT by humzai]
The problem isn't of or caused by religion it's of man's desires. A person who murders the innocent is not following islam he is only following his own desires the Quran says that if u kill one person it is as if u killed all of humanity and if you save one persons life it is as if u saved all of humanity. No one blames christianity for the actions of Timothy Macveigh or Hitler, then why in do you people blame Islam for the actions of an individual or individuals are not even following the basic tenets and beliefs of Islam. When people use verses that state that kill people wherever you find them the verses are taken way out of context. The verses following those and the ones prior to it are taking about those people that oppress you and are fighting against you and the verse after it says if they stop fighting and oprressing then u should stop too. If you look at history the Muslims fought to protect themselves and free the oppressed, Islam does not allow war for expansion of land.

There are many similarities between the two religions, similar beliefs and there are a few major differences. Muslims believe that Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) was a prophet and a messenger of god, and that he was born to the virgin Mary. The diffrences lie in that we don't believe in the Trinity, and we do not belive he was crucified. The Quranic teachings in this regard may be summed up as follows: (1) Christ was neither crucified nor killed by the Jews, notwithstanding certain apparent circumstances which produced that illusion in the minds of some of the enemies; and (2) Jesus was taken up to God (i.e.. God raised him up to Himself. Muslims believe that Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) will return and fight the anti-christ. Another major difference is that we dont believe in the orginal sin, we believe that all people are born free of sin. Muslims are supposed to respect the people of the book (Christians and Jews) and their religions as the all originate from the same place.



Link Posted: 9/15/2005 9:48:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By humzai:
The problem isn't of or caused by religion it's of man's desires. A person who murders the innocent is not following islam he is only following his own desires the Quran says that if u kill one person it is as if u killed all of humanity and if you save one persons life it is as if u saved all of humanity. No one blames christianity for the actions of Timothy Macveigh or Hitler, then why in do you people blame Islam for the actions of an individual or individuals are not even following the basic tenets and beliefs of Islam. When people use verses that state that kill people wherever you find them the verses are taken way out of context. The verses following those and the ones prior to it are taking about those people that oppress you and are fighting against you and the verse after it says if they stop fighting and oprressing then u should stop too. If you look at history the Muslims fought to protect themselves and free the oppressed, Islam does not allow war for expansion of land.

There are many similarities between the two religions, similar beliefs and there are a few major differences. Muslims believe that Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) was a prophet and a messenger of god, and that he was born to the virgin Mary. The diffrences lie in that we don't believe in the Trinity, and we do not belive he was crucified. The Quranic teachings in this regard may be summed up as follows: (1) Christ was neither crucified nor killed by the Jews, notwithstanding certain apparent circumstances which produced that illusion in the minds of some of the enemies; and (2) Jesus was taken up to God (i.e.. God raised him up to Himself. Muslims believe that Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) will return and fight the anti-christ. Another major difference is that we dont believe in the orginal sin, we believe that all people are born free of sin. Muslims are supposed to respect the people of the book (Christians and Jews) and their religions as the all originate from the same place.






Humzai,

I can respect your stance. Unfortunately the Muslim community, taken as a whole, hasn't done a lot to convince me that your perspective is very common.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 10:40:14 AM EDT
what do you mean by that and how would they show that stance to you. People claim that our leaders don't condemn terrorist actions, they do they have been doing that almost nonstop for the last several years, the fact that the media does not cover it does not mean they do not do it. You have to understand at least this is what I believe occurs is that what happens with these many of these people is that they lack knowledge of Islam but desire to do something so these terrrorists use them by telling them this is the right path and that you will be rewarded for this on the day of judgement, so they misuse the trust afforded to them by ignorant people to further their own agendas.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 11:48:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By humzai:
what do you mean by that and how would they show that stance to you. People claim that our leaders don't condemn terrorist actions, they do they have been doing that almost nonstop for the last several years, the fact that the media does not cover it does not mean they do not do it. You have to understand at least this is what I believe occurs is that what happens with these many of these people is that they lack knowledge of Islam but desire to do something so these terrrorists use them by telling them this is the right path and that you will be rewarded for this on the day of judgement, so they misuse the trust afforded to them by ignorant people to further their own agendas.



It isn't just the leaders, it's the families and the entire communities.

Look at Hezbollah, for example. It's a terrorist organization that holds a number of seats in the Lebanese government, is largely financed by Iran and Syria, etc. Why hasn't it been shut down? Why hasn't the Islamic public demanded an end to this organization? Why are Iran and Syria financing it? What about the populations of those countries?

Hezbollah is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization. Countries classifying it as such include the USA, Canada, United Kingdom, Australia, etc...not to mention the European Union. Over 300 US citizens have been murdered by it. Please show me examples of an outcry by Islamic leaders against Hezbollah.

Link Posted: 9/15/2005 12:16:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 12:16:59 PM EDT by scuba_ed]

Originally Posted By wpshooter:
LET THEM HAVE A CONTEST LIKE THE ONE THAT IS DESCRIBED IN THE CHRISTIAN'S BIBLE AT 1ST KINGS CHAPTER 18.

FOLLOWING IS A PARAPHRASING OF THAT EVENT AS DESCRIBED ELSEWHERE ON THE WORLD WIDE WEB:

"Bring two bulls. Give one to the prophets of Baal to cut up and offer as sacrifice on the altar but put no fire under the sacrifice. I will cut up another bull and build an alter of stone to offer unto the LORD God but will place no fire under the sacrifice. Let the god who is the real God answer by sending down fire from Heaven to burn up the sacrifice. If Baal can do this let all of the people worship Baal. But if Baal cannot do this let the LORD God send fire from Heaven to consume the sacrifice and let the people worship the LORD God only."

The prophets of Baal placed their cut up bull on their altar of stone and prayed all day for Baal to send down fire from heaven to burn the sacrifice. They leaped about the altar. They cried. They cut themselves with knives to get Baal to answer, but nothing happened.

After hours of prayer Elijah mocked them saying, " Cry aloud, for he is a god; either he is meditating, or he is busy, or he is on a journey, or perhaps he is sleeping and must be awakened."

Until evening they cried aloud for Baal to answer them without avail. Finally Elijah selected twelve stones to represent the twelve tribes of Israel and built an altar. He made a trench around the altar large enough to hold a great amount of water. He ordered the men to pour four large pots of water over the sacrifice and to run into the trench where it surrounded the altar like a large moat. Three times the men poured four large pots of water over the sacrifice until it filled the trench.

At the time of the evening offering of sacrifice Elijah called out, "LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be know this day that You are God in Israel and I am Your servant, and that I have done all these things at Your word. Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that his people may know that You are the LORD God, and that You have turned their hearts back to You again."

"Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood and the stones and the dust, and it licked up the water that was in the trench." Never had such a water heater been seen in the presence of the people at the request of the prophet of the LORD God.

The people were so astonished that they fell upon their faces and cried out repeatedly,, "The LORD, He is God!"

AND HERE ARE MY PREDICTIONS REGARDING SUCH A CONTEST.

NUMBER 1 IS THAT IT WILL NEVER TAKE PLACE, SINCE NEITHER OF THE TWO PARTIES LISTED IN THE TITLE OF THIS TOPIC, ARE REALLY CONFIDENT THAT EITHER ONE OF THE PARTIES WOULD/COULD BE A WINNER OF THIS CONTEST.

NUMBER 2 IS THAT IF IT WERE TO TAKE PLACE, NEITHER OF THE TWO PARTIES LISTED IN THE TITLE OF THIS TOPIC, WOULD WIN AS DESCRIBED IN THE ABOVE QUOTE AND THEN BOTH PARTIES WOULD HAVE TO START EXPLAINING TO THE PEOPLES WHO INHABIT THIS PLANET WHY THEY HAVE BEEN INSTRUMENTAL IN HAVING US KILLING EACH OTHER OVER "NOTHING" FOR ALL THIS TIME AND THAT UNFORTUNATELY WE ARE HERE ALONE TO EITHER TAKE CARE OF OURSELVES AND EACH OTHER OR TO DESTROY OURSELVES AND EACH OTHER.




-------------------------------

In keeping with the title of this thread "conflict between the Christian/capitalist and the Muslim extremist - A CHALLENGE"

First things first. The better definition, if I understand your post regarding the "the Muslim extremist " is actually a reference to the better description of Islamisist, Radical Islam, or Extremist Islam. I've done enough intel work in this area, and these represent community consensus.

That said, you may be suprised by the number of Islamisists who do indeed have the capitalist touch. These are not purely radical organizations, but to indeed work as profit-based.

Link Posted: 9/15/2005 12:22:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Shane333:

Originally Posted By humzai:
The problem isn't of or caused by religion it's of man's desires. A person who murders the innocent is not following islam he is only following his own desires the Quran says that if u kill one person it is as if u killed all of humanity and if you save one persons life it is as if u saved all of humanity. No one blames christianity for the actions of Timothy Macveigh or Hitler, then why in do you people blame Islam for the actions of an individual or individuals are not even following the basic tenets and beliefs of Islam. When people use verses that state that kill people wherever you find them the verses are taken way out of context. The verses following those and the ones prior to it are taking about those people that oppress you and are fighting against you and the verse after it says if they stop fighting and oprressing then u should stop too. If you look at history the Muslims fought to protect themselves and free the oppressed, Islam does not allow war for expansion of land.

There are many similarities between the two religions, similar beliefs and there are a few major differences. Muslims believe that Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) was a prophet and a messenger of god, and that he was born to the virgin Mary. The diffrences lie in that we don't believe in the Trinity, and we do not belive he was crucified. The Quranic teachings in this regard may be summed up as follows: (1) Christ was neither crucified nor killed by the Jews, notwithstanding certain apparent circumstances which produced that illusion in the minds of some of the enemies; and (2) Jesus was taken up to God (i.e.. God raised him up to Himself. Muslims believe that Jesus (Peace Be Upon Him) will return and fight the anti-christ. Another major difference is that we dont believe in the orginal sin, we believe that all people are born free of sin. Muslims are supposed to respect the people of the book (Christians and Jews) and their religions as the all originate from the same place.






Humzai,

I can respect your stance. Unfortunately the Muslim community, taken as a whole, hasn't done a lot to convince me that your perspective is very common.



_______________________________

Humzai--with a few exceptions, the openness and differences of our religions are intriguing; they would make you a Jew or myself a Muslim.

No conversion theme here. just to re-iterate that our differences are far less than what we share in common.

B'Shalom,

Ed
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 5:49:17 PM EDT
I agree, Muslims believe that our duty is only to inform weather or not they convert is their choice.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 8:44:57 AM EDT
If only that were the case... unfortunately "let the best religion win" in an "open marketplace of ideas" such as is found in the West, is not what is found in the Middle East or Indonesia where Muslims (being the majority) do use civil law to forbid other religions from sharing their faith and do make it very hard for non-Muslims to live without converting just to avoid hassles.

Now naturally this is more of a majority vs minority and ethnic vs ethnic thing than religion per se, but it ought to be addressed and I hope it will be so bloodshed is averted. Sadly, violence against others DOES seem universal - for example, hardly catechised Catholics turning on newly converted Evangelicals in Latin America.

It happens and it's tragic and while some local priests or bishops may either support it or turn a blind eye to the injustice, Rome and the Pope is vocal in calling for a halt to any such violence.

With respect to Islam, the Catholic Church has made alot of efforts to open things up for Muslims, allowing them to build a mosque in Rome and other cities for example. But no Church is allowed to be constructed in Saudi Arabia and any Catholics who try to pray in their homes or businesses are threatened by the religious police. In either case a minority is just trying to peacefully assemble for private worship.

In the West it's pretty much a given that Muslims have the RIGHT to convince their neighbors in the rightness of the Qu'ran and wrongness of everything else. Provided the convincing is done by force of argument and words rather than physical threats or arms. No church or official group denies this or teaches against this. But again such openness isn't found in nations with a majority population of Muslims.

That's a pity. We ought to be able to disagree peacefully. Argue - by all means, as religion is important! But argument ought not devolve into violence.

One may invoke the Crusades...but even there, the point wasn't to attack Muslims qua Muslims, but to liberate the Holy Lands. Nor did they attempt to COLONIZE the Kingdom of Jerusalem, or make it an official doctrine of Catholicism that Muslims be forced into the faith. Any such local acts of violence were condemned and passed on into Catholic history books as "bad things" to be ashamed of, not glories to be honored.

So again, we ought to seek a peaceful exchange of ideas and belief and win converts by force of words not arms. That alone is worthy of God.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 9:04:28 AM EDT
Yeah the middle east is an unfortunate area in many senses. A lot of the so called Muslim states ( I don't believe any state on this planet is a Muslim state) are run by despots that only care for themselves. In Syria if you are a practicing Muslim you go to jail, and there are other problems in the other countries some as severe others not soo much. The mistreatment of other faiths is not part of our religion during the middle ages the Jews came to Muslim lands bec ause they were persecuted in Europe, most mistake the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a conflict of religion it is not, It is a conflict of land.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 10:06:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By humzai:
Yeah the middle east is an unfortunate area in many senses. A lot of the so called Muslim states ( I don't believe any state on this planet is a Muslim state) are run by despots that only care for themselves. In Syria if you are a practicing Muslim you go to jail, and there are other problems in the other countries some as severe others not soo much. The mistreatment of other faiths is not part of our religion during the middle ages the Jews came to Muslim lands bec ause they were persecuted in Europe, most mistake the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a conflict of religion it is not, It is a conflict of land.



That's a pretty insightful response. I don't agree with all of it, but still insightful.

Remember that during the "middle ages" the Islamic Empire, or more appropriately, Ottoman Empire was going strong and getting stronger each day due to its control of land trade routes. In this period of security and self assurance, the Muslim rulers could allow those of other faiths to settle in Islam-controlled lands as long as they paid their increased taxes.

It's when trade routes changed that the sky fell on the Ottoman Empire. Without the constant revenue generated by taxation of trade, the empire slowly but surely imploded. Muslims, anxious to understand their fall from power, looked for a reason. Instead of noting the obvious economic reasons, they looked inward and surmised that they were suffering because they weren't zealous enough in their observance of Islam.

Up to this point Islam was as secular as it was religious. Science, medicine, and technology where considered important. As the empire deterioriated, zealousness in Islamic observances became paramount and science was pushed off to the nethermost corner. Tolerance of those of other faiths was replaced with paranoia, hatred, and jealousy.

Well, obviously this wasn't the correct answer to the economic problems, and the empire fell apart. In fact, it was effectively carved up during WWI.

At this point even the discovery of oil was too late. The regime was gone and the newer states were so corrupt that the wealth of oil merely filled the pockets of the elite, while the poor become more and more fanatical by the moment. The situation has merely progressed in like manner until today.

Link Posted: 9/26/2005 11:21:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Shane333:
The conflict will end someday.

When Jesus comes to the earth in all power and glory every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that he is The Lord.



I "TRULY" hope you are correct, yet I fear that you are not.

Could it be that man just can not accept their mortality.

Your above quote is something that you have been taught all your life by your parents and/or other people. Have you ever taken pause to think this thru for YOURSELF ? Even the Bible itself refers to the "what if" this was NOT true. Basically, it says that of all men, you would be the most (to use it's language) "miserable".

If you can give me proof (and I believe according to the Bible, that would be your duty), I am very willing to listen.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 11:42:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wpshooter:

Originally Posted By Shane333:
The conflict will end someday.

When Jesus comes to the earth in all power and glory every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that he is The Lord.



I "TRULY" hope you are correct, yet I fear that you are not.

Could it be that man just can not accept their mortality.

Your above quote is something that you have been taught all your life by your parents and/or other people. Have you ever taken pause to think this thru for YOURSELF ? Even the Bible itself refers to the "what if" this was NOT true. Basically, it says that of all men, you would be the most (to use it's language) "miserable".

If you can give me proof (and I believe according to the Bible, that would be your duty), I am very willing to listen.



Think it thru for myself? All the time. I have very carefully thought thru it since I was a young teenager.

As for proof, what is it that you require? What kind of proof? Some things, such as the acceptance of Jesus as one's Savior, is a matter of faith. If it were proven to the logical requirement of every scientist on earth, where would be the test of faith?
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:34:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JusAdBellum:
I think we ought to first start out by re-reading Summa contra gentiles by Thomas Aquinas, written to answer alot of the Muslim's claims.

In short, it's NOT theology that separates us so much as PHILOSOPHY. Their metaphysics (Aristotle-lite) doesn't allow them (or the Jews for that matter) to accept as POSSIBLE that God could become incarnate or be Trinity.

So the entirety of the Christian world view, i.e. that Jesus was more than a prophet, that he was in fact, GOD and Man and that his Father and Spirit are distinct persons.... is simply, for them, insane.

They can't accept that, so everything else - atonement, death on the cross, resurrection, etc. are thrown out as well.

Arguing from a "bible-only" perspective with someone who doesn't believe in the bible as inspired is dead on arrival. A non-starter.

So you have to first go back to basics and show that their METAPHYSICS is wrong, that their theology is based on a presupposition that is flawed and that God can be Father and hence, can have a Son, who came and revealed the truths found in the Gospel to us.

Once you get there, then the Koran and Gospel are back on equal footings as PLAUSIBLE, OR PROBABLE RATHER THAN A CONFLICT BETWEEN TRUTH AND OBVIOUS INSANTITY.




As a Muslim, I think I should clarify Islam's beliefs regarding Jesus. Muslims believe:

1) Jesus (peace be upon him) was born to virgin Mary (peace be upon her). Muslims believe that Mary was a virgin and this is one of God's miracles.

2) Jesus was a prophet but NOT the son of God. Muslims believe God is completely seperate from all of his creation and that God has no offspring or relations of any kind.

3) Jesus was not killed and was never crucified. Instead, someone who looked like Jesus was crucified. This is why Jesus was seen alive a couple days later. Then, God lifted Jesus up to heaven where he is now and one day Jesus will return to kill the Messiah Dajal (false messiah, or what Christians may call the anti-Christ).

4) Jesus told his people not to worship him, but instead, to worship God alone. Jesus also told his people not to eat pork or drink wine.

5) Muslims believe that eventually, Christians changed the Bible and lost touch with their faith, and so God sent his final messenger, Mohammed (peace be upon him).



One of the most fundamental of all Muslim faiths is to believe that God has no partners, kin, children, etc. There is one God. That's it. No God incarnate, no sons, no holy spirit. God is seperate from his creation.

Just God.

That's it.

And that is the most significant difference between Islam and Christianity.

Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:48:59 PM EDT
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