my friend just travelled to Rome and brought me back a very nice wooden rosary. Thanks for the link
Hey Sarge, I received a rosary with wooden beads from my wife's Catholic family some time back. I have it hanging up in our spare bedroom. Are there different rosaries with different amounts of beads for different prayers or something, or are they all the same?
Yes, there is also the Fransician Rosary.
I found a link about it at
but I don't know much about it to be honest.
and there are more I am sure.
Interesting. I'd never read the Mysteries before. I don't see anything in there
that Protestants would "protest". I wonder why the Rosary tradition
was not carried over into the Church of England and into Anglican churches......
I always assumed there was some mention of the Holy See in there or of Papal Infallibility
that made it go against the principles of the Reformation, but I don't see any.
Anglicans use every individual prayer of the Rosary except for the Hail Mary's.
We do however have statues of Mary prominent in the Church, so there might
be something in there that is out of alignment.
I am going to have to dig into researching why that is not in our doctrine,
I see no conflicts....
Almost every other tradition came from the RCC other than the few that were
The Fifth Glorious Mystery: The Coronation.
OK, Roman Catholics. I am not trying to fight here, I am curious. I see this in the
5th Glorious Mystery. Is there Scriptural backing for this?
We Anglicans use that one a lot, and quite often the Latin version.
Do any of you hardcore types say any of this in Latin?
Each mystery is basically an event that occurred in the Bible. You are supposed to reflect/meditate on that even as you say that decade.
Basically, it is more of a meditation than a prayer.
Here is one referance I have found.
"A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of twelve stars."
But I am not expert......
I believe it's because Anglicans don't pray to The Virgin Mary.
So apparantly Anglicans and the Church of England DID continue to say the Rosary for several years after Henry's little thing in 1535.
It was in 1563 when Elizabeth I made some doctrinal changes, including:
the rejection of the invocation of the Blessed Virgin and the Saints
This came from her association with some, I'll admit, kinda wacky people called "Calvanists".
After that the Rosary was modified to remove the Hail Mary, but by that time the people that had
been Roman Catholic and then forced to convert by henry were getting older, and the younger
folks had not had the Rosary tradition as instilled in them, and is passed.
I do find that Anglicans are OK with the Rosary excepting the Fifth Mystery.
Thanks for that Sarge, I'm not an expert in the whole Virgin Mary thing myself, but I
will capatilize Her name regardless of what some people think about it.
Yeah, I know that, but I am looking for more info on exactly WHY we don't.
We do nearly everything else the same as the Roman Catholic Church.
The reasoning is not entirely clear other than that wackjob Calvin had some
followers giving Elizabeth guidance.
I'm still digging info out.
The original intent of the English Reformation was not religious, it was political.
When Henry did his thing, he only changed 1 doctrinal item and that was to
move the seat of the Church from Rome to England. He didn't even authorize
divorce for others as is often claimed. All he did was authorize his OWN divorce
since he was head of the Church. Then, since the head of the Church was
married, it must be OK for all priests to be married, and we got that part.
The rest of the doctrine was the same until Elizabeth I.
She made most of the docrinal changes you see today, not Henry. He honestly wasn't
smart enough to think of any of that stuff.
Neither does the RCC....did you even look at the link?
Yes I did. And, I'm a RC.
Who do you assume you're praying to when you say a Hail Mary?
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
We pray to God and ask Mary also to pray for us
Just like when I ask you to pray for me.
I didn't realize God had a womb.
That's a direct statement TO Mary, not thru some proxy.
Of course God doesn't have a womb. You do know that Jesus is the fruit of her wombs, THAT is who gets blessed...JESUS not Mary.
The other part is when we ask her to pray for us.
It's pretty close, but there are some differences between Episcopal USA and the rest of
the Anglican community, most of it bad
That Anglican Rosary is not very well accepted, since there is no Church doctrine for it.
So, for a true Anglican, introducing something like that is unsound. Our
"Book of Common Prayer" has the prayer recitals for a year in it, and it is used.
Where you see this Anglican Rosary in use is in lots of places where missionaries have
converted or blended Roman Catholic populations with Anglicanism, especially in Africa.
The African arm of the Anglican Church is MASSIVE as you can imagine. The Anglican
Church has done more missionary work there than most churches, and so they have
a huge following.
An interesting side to that, way off topic, is that the African Anglicans are much more
in tune with doctrine in general than the ECUSA. Here we have this openly gay
Bishop Gene Robinson ordained, which will probably result in the ECUSA being kicked
out of the Anglican community, and a split in the ECUSA will end up with 2 Episcopal bodies
here in the states. The African Church is one of the strongest groups condemning
the ornination of Bishop Robinson, and I have to say when I send my tithe to the
Church now I send a goodly portion to the African Anglicans rather than the ECUSA.
I'm also attending a Lutheran Church since my local Episcopal priest is a fan of
"Gay Gene". When the split occurs, I'll be able to return to the Episcopal Church.
Til then the ECUSA is out of communion with the rest of the Church in my opinion.
Anyway, it's a real mess.
Thanks for these links, it's interesting reading.
You can always come back home to the RCC TexasSig
I tried, I really did.
The Original Sin thing, the Infallibility of the Pope thing, and the Transubstantiation thing
got me. I was THIS close. Those I could not reconcile with my reading of the
Bible and other writings, so I am stuck somewhere in the middle.
The idea that Mass is a literal sacrifice and not a symbolic gesture of respect
is probably the hardest for me. That's another thread maybe sometime.
doctrine of the Church of England to me is what I believe, it's just that here in
the USA that doesn't exist anymore. The ECUSA took a dump when it ordained
not just a gay priest, but a BISHOP nonetheless.... It's depressing.
That first LINE is almost directly from the Bible.****Edited****<va-gunnut>
<====unabashedly "wacky Calvinist".
Or just move slightly the other way and join the "wacky" side of theology.
In 1553, Calvin approved of the execution by burning of Michael Servetus for heresy.
This was after he created a church "court" called The Consistory. This group
was charged with maintaining order in the church and among its members. Offenses ranged from
propounding false doctrine to moral infractions, such as wild dancing and bawdy singing.
Generally the punishments were mild, but in 1553 Michael Servetus, who had previously
been arrested and convicted if heresy by the Roman Catholic Church, had escaped
and fled to Geneva, where he attended a sermon by John Calvin, who had similar
beliefs and was also not a friend of Rome. Calvin recognized Servetus as an escapee
detained him. Calvin's power in Geneva was a bit on the rocks at the time so he
figured he could gain some prestige by making a public thing out of Servetus, even
though they were both aligned together for the most part in the attempt at
Reformation of the RCC.
Servetus had written a book and sent it to Calvin. John Calvins response was
In 1553 when Servetus went to hear Calvin, John approached him as a friend nonetheless,
in order to trick him into captivity.
Now, Servetus himself wasn't a particularly well liked guy. His book dealt with the possiblity
that maybe the Trinity was not correct, and there could be more than one God. This
of course didn't sit well with most people. Servetus also taught a concept called
"pulmonary circulation", which in today's medicine we know to be true. This was also
called heresy by Calvin. Servetus also preached against the necessity of infant Baptism,
which has since been accepted by the Anglican church.
On October 27 1553 Servetus was burned alive at the stake outside of Geneva.
This solidified Calvins political power. Because of that, some of his higher ups were
allowed to Court with Elizabeth I.
When Elizabeth was finishing her doctrinal changes for the Churh of England, several
of Calvins beliefs, including anti-paedobaptism were added to CoE doctrine.
Given the murderous history of John Calvin and his friends, I think I can say
"wacky" with some bit of historical justification.
Calvins ideas were sound doctrinally in nearly all cases, and Calvinism has a stong
folllowing and is in line with most other Reformed Protestant Churches.
But using your Curch power for political gain is exactly the thing that Calvin, Luther,
and others initially used as the excuse to attack the Roman Catholic Church.
So, when I refer to the original group associated with Calvin as "wacky" I think
that can be justified.
I'm accused of "bashing" other religions pretty regularly, but I think if you read the
historical circumstances of the occurences, things change.
Is it "bashing" a group to repeat their history exactly as it happened?
Now, back to the Rosary.
So I find it interesting, as far as Protetants go, that the Rosary is not used.
The argument given is that Protestants do not say "Hail Mary's".
I have a copy of a "church approved" hymnal for both Lutheran and Episcopal churches
and guess what?
Both of these have the hymn "Ave Maria" in it.
Ave Maria is the Latin translation of the Hail Mary, word for word.
So that makes no sense to me. Protestants don't say Hail Mary's but we sing it?
DAMN...how did I NOT know that??
I KNEW I should have studied latan instead of bongthology.
Ave María, grátia plena, Dóminus tecum.
Benedícta tu in muliéribus, et benedíctus
fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta María, Mater Dei,
ora pro nobis peccatóribus, nunc, et in hora mortis nostræ.
The lyrics of the song:
Ave Maria Lyrics
ETA: I'm very interested in the Rosary (in a sense) as well. Having a Methodist background (though now Nazarene), the idea of the meditation in prayer is very appealing for my spiritual life. I wonder what most protestants think of this..
Most cities will have a Catholic book store where you can buy a rosary. Most catholic churches also have small little "gift" shops where you can buy one also, and yes they do make a profit usually.
They are not blessed so if have to get them blessed AFTER you buy it.
Many online places also sale them.
Blessed are the meek.
More research has uncovered the following from a couple of Anglican instructions
Interestingly, the Amen is NOT included at the end, which is strange. You say a prayer
but I guess if you don't end it with Amen it is different somehow? Amen translated means roughly "so be it".
So, it would seem that Hail Mary's are fine for Anglicans, but the Mysteries are still not doctrinal.
It also seems that more of this stuff was made up just to piss off the Pope than I had
originally thought. It was most certainly all about politics.
I'd like to add to my comments of "wacky" above to include a few Anglican Bishops
along the way... all they were doing was stirring up trouble it appears, at least in some
It's pretty silly to sing Ave Maria, pray the Hail Mary, but say that the Rosary is not
Quick reply to the Calvin hijack:
If one would decry Calvin for burning a man at the stake for heresy (and one would do so rightly), how much moreso should one decry the thousands of martyrs at the hands of the Roman Catholic church at the same time?
This is NOT an excuse for Calvin's act, and I do believe he was wrapped up in politics way too much, but understand that this too was a product of the Reformation. If a mere serf can talk directly with God, then the "divine right" of Kings is rediculous. The Reformation precipitated the "peasent wars" where many people died, but without which the Founding Father's wouldn't have the philosophy of self-governance.
"All things work together for the good..."
BTW: Servetus could be described as a proto-unitarian. His teaching was heresy, Calvin just chose the wrong way to silence him.
I'l stand by the Calvinist label, as by your own admission:
In many ways the man doesn't mach the "ism" with both Calvin and Luther, IMHO. As far as I'm concerned, their personal failings don't nessecarily negate the good theology and docrine that came from them.
Oh, there is no doubt others have engaged in some horrible activities, I was just called
on the spot in IMs and other placed to justify my use of the word wacky, I still stand by that.
<== still "wacky" about Grace.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread about the Rosary (already in progress).
Heh heh. Oh, there are tons of wackiness in the history of the European churches I'm afraid.
The whole bunch of them were a bit insane from the power and glory hunt.
What irks me is some of the nasty IMs I received from people that were Calvinists
that had NO IDEA what that even meant, or who John Calvin was and what he did.
I mean, good greif. From my side, the Anglican side, look at my own Oliver Cromwell.
Talk about a nutjob!!! This guy was unreal.
So all I'd like to say is, before you IM be complaining about a supposed insult, read some history.
There is more going on here than the words of the Bible, at least as far as doctrinal
messages and the organization of the various denominations. Most of todays modern
churches came out of this period, and most were led by brilliant sociopaths.......
Don't get your feelings hurt if your particular namesake happens to have been one of the crazies.
Calvin, Luther, Cromwell, Wesley, Zwingli, Melanchthon.
All of these folks had a touch of lunatic about them.
They were for the most part proof that
Back (again) to the Rosary.
They keep pulling me back IN!
I wouldn't call it lunacy, but neither will I be offended, as long as we mention Colonna, della Rovere, Torquemada, de Medici , Loyola, and Carafa in the same breath.
As were the names I mentioned. The Roman Catholic church had the power to burn more books, burn more theologians, and make more war than the Reformers ever did. Something to think about.
(again, sorry for continuing the hijack sarge)
ETA: Taken to IM, though it's probably too late.
Oh, no argument from me at all on what the Roman Catholics did. I only left them
out because that's pretty much common knowledge. Most people don't
realize that the Reformers did as many horrible things as the group they
were protesting against.
I've met countless Protestants that somehow think nothing bad ever happened on
the way to where we are now, that Luther just nailed his list of stuff up to the door
and that was it, they shook hands with the Pope and went their separate ways.
Most certainly didn't happen that way.
Sorry Sarge, this one has been hijacked beyond repair I'm afraid
Although I did learn a lot from you posting it, some very interesting
things regarding the Rosary I've discovered over the last couple of days.
That's what the Lutherns used to say.....Sgat1r5