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Posted: 5/13/2004 7:01:13 AM EST
www.alaskool.org/projects/ak_military/warmaps.html

Yes the Japanese invaded , and put troops on American soil during WW II. I can't believe how many people don't know this . Granted they never taught this at my school either.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:09:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By Kodiak-AK:
www.alaskool.org/projects/ak_military/warmaps.html

Yes the Japanese invaded , and put troops on American soil during WW II. I can't believe how many people don't know this . Granted they never taught this at my school either.




We learned about it in one of my history classes. I can't remember if it was 8th grade or freshman year of HS though. The teacher was a WWII vet who was in AK at the time the Japs invaded.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:12:22 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:15:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 7:16:31 AM EST by Gloftoe]
Technically? Alaska wasn't a US State until 1959. True, it was a US Territory though. Does that constitute an invasion of the United States? Would an invastion of Puerto Rico be the same thing?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:17:00 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:17:11 AM EST
Alaska Statehood 1959
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:21:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
Technically? Alaska wasn't a US State until 1959. True, it was a US Territory though. Does that constitute an invasion of the United States? Would an invastion of Puerto Rico be the same thing?



Would you be prepared to sacrifice your life for Attu Island or Puerto Rico? When I was in my twenties, I'm pretty sure I would have.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:28:02 AM EST
Or Hawaii....


Originally Posted By Paul:

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
Technically? Alaska wasn't a US State until 1959. True, it was a US Territory though. Does that constitute an invasion of the United States? Would an invastion of Puerto Rico be the same thing?



Or Guam?

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:29:47 AM EST
Puerto Rico is one of the biggest enclaves of liberal thought in the USA.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:38:37 AM EST

How many people don't realise the US was invaded during WW II?


Just about the same number of folks who are unaware Pearl Harbor was a BIG FAT LIE (as FDR and the government KNEW about the attack in advance).

In-fact they instituted a 27 point plan to ensure the Japanese would attack us, and kept it all from Kimmel and Short, so they could take the fall.

Mike
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:40:53 AM EST
While it is technically true that the US was never invaded in WWII, we did have attacks against US states. A Japanese sub shelled the oil fields in Santa Barbara and the balloon bombs reached Oregon and the resulting fires caused US deaths.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:43:19 AM EST
The Phillipines did not gain their independence until 1946.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:43:40 AM EST
I did.
"G.I. Combat" had a comic book where the Haunted Tank was fighting in the Aleutians.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:49:12 AM EST
Wilmington NC was both Shelled by German U-Boats and invaded by landing parties.

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:51:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 8:15:58 AM EST by Tanker06]

Originally Posted By CalGat:
...and the balloon bombs reached Oregon and the resulting fires caused US deaths.


Not quite.... balloon bombs did hit all over the Northwest, but the only known fatalies were on May 5, 1945 when a minister and
his family were on a picnic. They found a balloon in the woods, and when they moved it, the bombs exploded, killing six of them.

The Japanese discontinued their balloon-bomb in April 1945, as the gov't, along with media, had clamped a wall of silence on
their existence, and the Japanese never knew that they were reaching the States. They had launched abt 9000 of them.
Some small fires attributed to them were small and easily contained.

They were found as far east as Michigan.

Correction: The minister & his wife took some kids from his church on the picnic. He was parking the car when the rest of the
group found the balloon and it's remaining HE bomb. One of the kids moved the bomb, it exploded, killing the wife and all five
of the kids.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 7:52:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
Technically? Alaska wasn't a US State until 1959. True, it was a US Territory though. Does that constitute an invasion of the United States? Would an invastion of Puerto Rico be the same thing?

Why not ? They didn't even set foot on Hawaii , nd we went apeshit.

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:01:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 8:02:08 AM EST by 95thFoot]

Originally Posted By SS109:
I did.
"G.I. Combat" had a comic book where the Haunted Tank was fighting in the Aleutians.



So that's how we defeated them there...interesting.......
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:08:36 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:10:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By Kodiak-AK:

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
Technically? Alaska wasn't a US State until 1959. True, it was a US Territory though. Does that constitute an invasion of the United States? Would an invastion of Puerto Rico be the same thing?

Why not ? They didn't even set foot on Hawaii , nd we went apeshit.



Well, they attacked a naval installation, killed 2403 US Navy Servicemen, sunk or damaged 18 US Navy ships, and a buttload of aircraft.

However, I confess that I don't know much about the Japanese invading Alaska. Did we even HAVE military bases up there at the time?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:13:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By PSYWAR1-0:
Wilmington NC was both Shelled by German U-Boats and invaded by landing parties.


The japanese also to dropped, I think it was hot air ballons of some type with some kind of incindiary devices on the forests of either Washington or Oregon


Those are the balloons that CalGat & I posted about. The balloons, called the "Fu-Go" Project, were armed with five or six (it
varied depending on which factory made them) incendiary bombs, and one standard HE. It was the standard HE bomb that killed
the six people on the picnic in Oregon. It landed, but hadn't gone off, then one of the kids moved it. BOOM.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:15:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:20:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By warlord:
Puerto Rico is one of the biggest enclaves of liberal thought in the USA.



so we let the democRats take care of this invasion?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:21:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By Hawkeye:
Nazi's came ashore here in Jacksonville, FL and Jekyll Island, GA.



But they were spies, and not very good ones at that.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:38:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 8:39:38 AM EST by Kodiak-AK]

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:

Originally Posted By Kodiak-AK:

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
Technically? Alaska wasn't a US State until 1959. True, it was a US Territory though. Does that constitute an invasion of the United States? Would an invastion of Puerto Rico be the same thing?

Why not ? They didn't even set foot on Hawaii , nd we went apeshit.



Well, they attacked a naval installation, killed 2403 US Navy Servicemen, sunk or damaged 18 US Navy ships, and a buttload of aircraft.

However, I confess that I don't know much about the Japanese invading Alaska. Did we even HAVE military bases up there at the time?

Yes . In fact the Naval base here is now the largest USCG base in the U.S.
www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=Alaska+WWII
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:41:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

How many people don't realise the US was invaded during WW II?


Just about the same number of folks who are unaware Pearl Harbor was a BIG FAT LIE (as FDR and the government KNEW about the attack in advance).

In-fact they instituted a 27 point plan to ensure the Japanese would attack us, and kept it all from Kimmel and Short, so they could take the fall.

Mike





BULLSHIT. Suggest you read "Pearl Harbor - Final Judgement" by Clausen. There were a lot of fuck-ups but to claim FDR set it up and successfully co-ordinated a secret attack by the Japanese with the connivance of the War Department, NavyDepartment, State Department, MacArthur, Churchill and others verges on lunacy. To claim FDR alone did it is clearly an impossibility, that then demands you have to have co-conspirators or unknowing dupes, and they have to have assistance and then you have to claim that all of them kept their mouths shut for $$, fear or loyalty, ort that FDR had them killed, which means you have to bring in bag men for payoffs, or the paid assassins, and they have to be silent .

Some of the wartime investigations were flawed, and Clausen explores why. Some of the reasons were that people that knew that the US had broken the Japanese codes, and were using enigma machines, lied through their teeth about that to keep it secret. Several of the Staff members on Kimmel and Shorts staffs were incompetent, and there ws also some CYA'g going on.

Also there was some level of business as usual, they relied on normal messaging practices, which meant using the normal government and civilian channels. The idea that you could pick up a phone in the Pentagon or White House and call Hawaii was virtually unheard of. Should they have done that. Yes.

Kimmel and Short had all the information they needed, they needed to be more pro-active and DC needed to kick them in the butts to get their searches and other preps in order.

Also apply Occam's Razor to the Pacific, if FDR wanted to get the US involved, there were several much easier ways to do it. Leave the Navy, Marines and Army in China, get the French or Dutch Governments in exile give protectorate status to of their SE Asia possessions to the US, similar to what happened with French, Danish and Dutch Atlantic possessions, declare spheres of influence or neutrality zones around various US possessions to protect the US interests (similar to Atlantic Charter actions.)

Now you want to argue that FDR wanted to get in the fight in Europe, that's well known and easily and clearly documented.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 9:07:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By PaDanby:

Originally Posted By mr_wilson:

How many people don't realise the US was invaded during WW II?


Just about the same number of folks who are unaware Pearl Harbor was a BIG FAT LIE (as FDR and the government KNEW about the attack in advance).

In-fact they instituted a 27 point plan to ensure the Japanese would attack us, and kept it all from Kimmel and Short, so they could take the fall.

Mike





BULLSHIT. Suggest you read "Pearl Harbor - Final Judgement" by Clausen. There were a lot of fuck-ups but to claim FDR set it up and successfully co-ordinated a secret attack by the Japanese with the connivance of the War Department, NavyDepartment, State Department, MacArthur, Churchill and others verges on lunacy. To claim FDR alone did it is clearly an impossibility, that then demands you have to have co-conspirators or unknowing dupes, and they have to have assistance and then you have to claim that all of them kept their mouths shut for $$, fear or loyalty, ort that FDR had them killed, which means you have to bring in bag men for payoffs, or the paid assassins, and they have to be silent .

Some of the wartime investigations were flawed, and Clausen explores why. Some of the reasons were that people that knew that the US had broken the Japanese codes, and were using enigma machines, lied through their teeth about that to keep it secret. Several of the Staff members on Kimmel and Shorts staffs were incompetent, and there ws also some CYA'g going on.

Also there was some level of business as usual, they relied on normal messaging practices, which meant using the normal government and civilian channels. The idea that you could pick up a phone in the Pentagon or White House and call Hawaii was virtually unheard of. Should they have done that. Yes.

Kimmel and Short had all the information they needed, they needed to be more pro-active and DC needed to kick them in the butts to get their searches and other preps in order.

Also apply Occam's Razor to the Pacific, if FDR wanted to get the US involved, there were several much easier ways to do it. Leave the Navy, Marines and Army in China, get the French or Dutch Governments in exile give protectorate status to of their SE Asia possessions to the US, similar to what happened with French, Danish and Dutch Atlantic possessions, declare spheres of influence or neutrality zones around various US possessions to protect the US interests (similar to Atlantic Charter actions.)

Now you want to argue that FDR wanted to get in the fight in Europe, that's well known and easily and clearly documented.



I always love the argument for you see it matters little in the sceme of thngs for what makes you believe the government then was anymore screwed up than now in dissimilating intelligence information into action?

It's like saying the British knew about the Panzers at operation Market Garden, or the US knew about "The Battle of the Bulge".

Hell get more modern and the US knew about the "Tet Offensive" or hell we even knew about 9/11.

It's a wisp of smoke coming from many directions until the flames climb high.

Tj
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 9:08:26 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 9:08:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
Would you be prepared to sacrifice your life for Attu Island or Puerto Rico? When I was in my twenties, I'm pretty sure I would have.



Believe me, Attu Island isn't worth ANYONE'S life.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 9:12:36 AM EST



One of my uncles fought in the Aleutians, just found this out before he died last May.

Link Posted: 5/13/2004 9:52:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
Would you be prepared to sacrifice your life for Attu Island or Puerto Rico? When I was in my twenties, I'm pretty sure I would have.



Believe me, Attu Island isn't worth ANYONE'S life.


Link Posted: 5/13/2004 9:53:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
Technically? Alaska wasn't a US State until 1959. True, it was a US Territory though. Does that constitute an invasion of the United States? Would an invastion of Puerto Rico be the same thing?



Does a beach in NC count? My Father-in-law (God rest his soul) and his sub-attack crew fished dead Germans out of the drink. They also posed the corpses with cigs in their mouth and took pictures, etc. and the press didn't say a word... We survived that war.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 2:18:06 PM EST
The claim that FDR knew about the attack on Pearl but let it happen falls apart with the application of just a little brain power. Whether we were ready for the Japs or not, the result would have been the same. In other words, if our forces had been ready for the attack, we still would have been at war with the Japs. Hello....they attacked us....nothing we did or could have done would have changed that.

The Battle of the Bulge was a huge but costly victory for the Allies. It shortened the war because we were able to kill many Germans ahead of a spring '45 offensive.

As for Tet '68, we knew something was in the works and steps were taken to prepare for it. Like the Battle of the Bulge, Tet '68 was a huge but costly victory for us. VC and NVA casualties were terrifically high especially among the well-trained VC cadre. In fact, the VC ceased to be combat effective for the remainder of the war.

I am not an historian. However, I have read hundreds of books relying on sources from both sides of many conflicts. I have read many books from both side of the VN controversies. I base my humble opinions on the balance of these many, many sources.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 2:23:11 PM EST
I didn't know until I went to Alaska the summer after my senior year of high school
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 3:11:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:

Would you be prepared to sacrifice your life for Attu Island or Puerto Rico? When I was in my twenties, I'm pretty sure I would have.



Not a chance in HELL!!! They can have pureto rico right now if they want that shit hole.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 3:23:05 PM EST
What was the first territory we lost to the japs?

Was it wake or guam? Did losing 90% of the PI count as the first loss?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 3:30:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 3:33:16 PM EST by ProfessorEvil]

Originally Posted By Aimless:
The japanese also to dropped, I think it was hot air ballons of some type with some kind of incindiary devices on the forests of either Washington or Oregon




Yeah. A small prop plane was launched from a sub, with two hand carried incindiary bombs. The intent was to light the western forests on fire. The guy who dropped them was an intermediary between the local village in OR and his hometown in Japan (the whole sister cities thing). have to look up the names now, damnit.

Pilot's name was Fujita, he bombed Mt Emily Oregon (near brookings, OR).
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 3:56:07 PM EST
Guam fell fairly quickly. Wake held out for a while in a heroic defense.

Pearl had a variety of issues. Disseminating intel in a hurry was one of them. Poor Intel Officers was another. Disseminating all the intel was a major factor. Getting the staffs to believe what they had. Part of the problem was that anything that came from the broken codes was extremely closely held, the challenge to get it out without revealing that we were in fact reading their codes. They had already had a war warning message and had stood down from the higher readiness status. Pearl knew that the Japanese Fleet was out and had gone radio silent, but decided they were heading south.

I think our overall intell accuracy is roughly the same. We are just a hell of a lot faster and efficient in getting it out.

FDR didn't make the decisions to not put out submarine pickets or aircraft patrols out. FDR didn't make the decision (against a lot of advice) to cluster the aircraft. FDR didn't ignore the radar warning. FDR didn't ignore the Ward attacking the sub in the defense zone. FDR didn't make the decision to not deploy anti-torpedo nettings.

The Japanese tactical intel and target selection wasn't much better. They should have known the carriers were out, they should have known to hit the tank farms at Makalapa and the ammo on the ground out at West Loch
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