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Posted: 6/1/2001 2:55:57 PM EDT
By the way, the HRT uses Federal COMMERCIAL red and white box .223. In the test 5.56 NATO, which is known to contain flash suppressants was used. [url]news.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010601/pl/fbi_waco_1.html[/url] Waco Simulation Didn't Test Gun FBI By MATT KELLEY, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON (AP) - The simulation that concluded government agents did not fire their guns during the Waco siege did not test the type of assault rifle the FBI (news - web sites) had at the scene, according to an official who helped run the test. The simulation last year used a standard M-16 military rifle with a 20-inch barrel, said Robert Stewart, a U.S. Postal Service inspector who helped coordinate the simulation. The FBI does not use standard M-16s, and members of its Hostage Rescue Team who were at Waco, Texas, in 1993 carried a version with just a 14-inch barrel, an FBI spokeswoman said. Firearms experts say the longer gun has less muzzle flash. Lawyers for the Branch Davidians who survived the fiery end of the siege in April 1993 are now questioning whether the test really proved that FBI agents never fired their guns at the Davidian compound. ``I think it completely undermines the test results,'' attorney Michael Caddell said. Caddell said he plans to use the test as evidence if the lawsuit his clients filed against the government is restored on appeal. Former Sen. John Danforth, who led the independent Waco review, said he did not know specifics about the test gun. He said it would not change his conclusion that the FBI did not fire upon the Davidians at the end of the siege. Eighty Davidians died. ``I don't know what weapons were tested myself,'' Danforth said Friday. ``But all of this was part of the agreement, and all of it was pronounced fair at the end of the test.'' An FBI official, who spoke only on condition of anonymity, said the agency provided one of the shorter rifles to Danforth's office and that the ground rules for the test called for the smaller rifle to be used. Danforth said Friday he thought he received ``something less than total cooperation'' from the FBI, although he said that did not change his findings that absolved the FBI of blame for the Davidians' deaths. ``Do I think there's anything out there hidden in some drawer that would affect the outcome? I don't think there's any chance of that,'' Danforth said. Stewart said the military's M-16 rifle that testers used had a 20-inch barrel, not the 14-inch carbine that the FBI had at Waco. He provided documentary filmmaker Mike McNulty with a photograph of the gun tested. ``We tested a standard military issue M-16, not a carbine,'' Stewart said.
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 2:56:32 PM EDT
(continued) The Davidian lawyers sought the simulation on March 19, 2000, because they believed flashes of light that appeared on infrared video from the final moments of the siege could be muzzle flashes from FBI guns. Experts from British contractor Vector Data Systems concluded the flashes on the April 19, 1993, tape were glint from the sun, not gunfire. Danforth and U.S. District Judge Walter S. Smith Jr. relied in part on that information to conclude that FBI agents did not fire their guns at the Davidian compound. Firearms experts say the difference in barrel lengths could have affected the test. Guns with longer barrels produce smaller muzzle flashes than those with shorter barrels because the hot gases released by firing have longer to dissipate and cool, they said. ``From my experience, it's intuitive that with a shorter barrel, you're going to get a longer muzzle flash,'' said Don Bassett, a retired FBI agent who helped create the Hostage Rescue Team. Caddell said he repeatedly insisted that the test include the smaller M-16, and said that Danforth's office kept him from inspecting the weapons used in the simulation. Caddell said the test protocol called for using the shorter assault rifle. ``We were either suckered by the Office of Special Counsel or we were suckered by the FBI, or both,'' Caddell said. Danforth denied any wrongdoing. ``The weapons that were used and the way the test was conducted was something that was agreed on by everyone,'' Danforth said. Ten days before the test, Brad Swenson of Danforth's office wrote Caddell to say that on the FBI's recommendation, testers would only use one type of M-16. Swenson said the FBI would provide a gun ``which is representative of all the M-16 style weapons the HRT had at Waco.'' Swenson referred to that gun as an M-16A2, the standard rifle with a 20-inch barrel. Swenson also wrote that the test gun would have a 14-inch barrel. Caddell learned of the weapons discrepancy from McNulty, a filmmaker who has made several documentaries about Waco that accuse the government of a cover-up. The government has maintained that the Davidians led by David Koresh died by their own hand, shooting themselves and setting fire to their compound.
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 2:59:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 3:04:00 PM EDT
I'm interested, but my login will probably time-out before I'm done reading. [%|]
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 3:14:15 PM EDT
not surprising FBI is always screwing something up!
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 3:54:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 4:03:46 PM EDT
Imliblio [whacko]
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 4:42:43 PM EDT
J.Edgar must be rolling in his grave. The FBI has gone from the premier investigative agency in the world, to a political 'secret police' soon to rival the Gestapo. Starting in the '80's with Robbie Mathews, the 3-letter agencies have declared war on the 'far right.' Ruby ridge and Waco were only two examples. This phony-baloney 'war on drugs' has corrupted EVERY law enforcement agency in the US, and the FBI is no exception. I'm married to a former FBI support staff employee, and believe me, it is not the same agency it was 25 years ago.
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 4:48:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 4:51:30 PM EDT
J. Edgar hoover is Gestapo like in my book. he had no buisness imprisoning japanese americans just because of their race. imagine us "patriots" being imprisoned because we might be aryan terroists or something. J. Edgar hoover helped the Rex 84 program come into existance which would be used under martial law to imprison americans whom the government fears may be involved in some supposed terroist activity. not McCarthy, but Hoover was the true anti-communist zealot. anti-communist, but not a zealot lib
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 4:59:37 PM EDT
Is anybody really surprised by this? I'm not, that's for sure.
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 5:48:37 PM EDT
FBI motto "No Body Leaves Alive."
Link Posted: 6/1/2001 5:58:24 PM EDT
FBI First at Burning Infants
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