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Posted: 5/1/2002 5:04:42 PM EDT
Are going to save your 2nd ammendment rights? Regan machine-gun ban Bush sr. import ban The way I see it, is our posterity will pay for our sins, if we continue to vote for the Repubs. If we don't vote or vote demos. we will get to fight.
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 5:07:17 PM EDT
Add a poll! [:D]
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 5:12:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ar10er: Are going to save your 2nd ammendment rights? Regan machine-gun ban Bush sr. import ban The way I see it, is our posterity will pay for our sins, if we continue to vote for the Repubs. If we don't vote or vote demos. we will get to fight.
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In defense of Ron, the 86" Machine Gun ban was part of a greater bill that restored MANY firearm rights. He did NOT have a line item veto cpacity. Bush Sr. remains an asshole. Republicans are the lesser of two evils. But voting for third parties (ie. Libertarians) usually results in the in a win by the GREATER of two evils. Result, 8 years if Bill Clinton. They ain't gonna save us but I vote Republican in presidential races and Libertarian in lesser races where they actually stand a chance. The best thing each of us can do is support Libertarian candidates in your LOCAL races. These are the people who make the laws that MOSTLY effect YOU.
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 5:44:43 PM EDT
BTT because inquiring minds got to know, will you push this off on your children.
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 5:49:13 PM EDT
I actually vote Republican in local elections where my vote means more. In the landside elections, I will vote Libertarian so they get federal funding.
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 5:54:08 PM EDT
i think a point often lost in these kinds of discussions is that it is not the prezes who are solely responsible for the legislation that passes. there's this group of people called the Senate and this group of people called Representatives that have a hell of a lot of control over these issues too. you HAVE to look at the big picture. some people can't seem to recognize the forest for the one big tree standing in their way.
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 6:04:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ARLady: i think a point often lost in these kinds of discussions is that it is not the prezes who are solely responsible for the legislation that passes. there's this group of people called the Senate and this group of people called Representatives that have a hell of a lot of control over these issues too. you HAVE to look at the big picture. some people can't seem to recognize the forest for the one big tree standing in their way.
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I only used the big guys above for the reason you mentioned, the one big tree, that at the time were the leaders of the party. And I might add that there are plenty of Republican Senators, Congressmen, and Mayors that are anti. If only mildly so. Rockfeller, Mc Cain, Guliani, etc.....
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 6:15:20 PM EDT
I vote Republican because it is the lesser of two evils. Meanwhile each year my taxes continue to go up and my freedoms diminish. If I vote for a third party then the things would get worse faster because the greater of the two evils would win more often.
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 6:24:02 PM EDT
As blindly as Rosie O' votes Democrat.[8D]
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 6:33:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SS109: I actually vote Republican in local elections where my vote means more. In the landside elections, I will vote Libertarian so they get federal funding.
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If a Libertarian takes federal funding you can be sure about one thing: He isnt a Libertarian. Libertarians dont believe in federal funding of *any* political point of view. To use federal tax money to support a political party or candidate is to FORCE another to pay for a candidate or philisophy he or she may find abhorrible. This is at the heart of Libertarianism. It isnt acceptable to [red]initiate[/red] force against another human. Louis
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 6:39:22 PM EDT
I support most Republicans. Not all of them are good, but I just don't vote for the bad ones. And even McCain, a "bad" Republican, voted against the AW Ban and the Brady Bill. Not to say I'd ever support him, but it's definitely food for thought...
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 6:41:09 PM EDT
The only 'thing' I believe in anymore are the creations of Mr. Stoner, Mr. Browning, and Mr. Glock... That, and a big-ass stash of ammo to feed them with... The politicians all smell the same...
Link Posted: 5/1/2002 6:54:08 PM EDT
How many here actually believe ar10er is going to save your 2nd amendment rights?
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 7:27:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Avtomat: How many here actually believe ar10er is going to save your 2nd amendment rights?
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It will not be me, but will it be the Republicans? [url]www.thehill.com/050102/gop.shtm[/url]
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 7:51:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2002 7:52:33 AM EDT by Golgo-13]
Republicans profit mightily from being not-Democrats. It isn't that Republicans are pro-gun, it's that the Democrats (some real important high profile ones, anyway) are anti-gun. I honestly believe that the Republicans don't really want you to keep your gun, it's simply that there are other aspects of their agenda that are more urgent for them right now than disarming you. If you study the history of the US, whenever there were laws passed designed to disarm some group or prohibit some class of weapon, the Republicans were right in there as part and parcel of it. Just now, it is very convenient for them to have you think of them as on your side.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 8:06:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2002 8:21:09 AM EDT by warlord]
Originally Posted By Golgo-13: . . I honestly believe that the Republicans don't really want you to keep your gun, it's simply that there are other aspects of their agenda that are more urgent for them right now than disarming you. If you study the history of the US, whenever there were laws passed designed to disarm some group or prohibit some class of weapon, the Republicans were right in there as part and parcel of it. Just now, it is very convenient for them to have you think of them as on your side.
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I agree 100% with you on your point. The Republicans have had their share of hare brained ideas. Many of the Republicans have oher priorities, such as religion, abortion, taxes, workers comp. etc. Just voting for Republicans will not protect your 2nd Amend rights, because there a number of anti-gun Republicans. The gunners should watch them pretty closely. Here in Calif, the Republicans will change sides if it suits their political needs. Has anyone actually participated on the local grass-roots level of the Republican party? The is the level of involvement will keep those anti-gun Republicans in line and that will assure the future of our 2nd Amend rights in the USA. I would like to add that the original 1989 AW ban in Calif. was signed by REPUBLICAN Gov. Geo. Duekmejian, an Armenian who has forgotten what the Turks did to the Armenians in 1919.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 8:14:02 AM EDT
It looks like the fight is slowing down. According to news updates. The Democrats are willing to giving the "gun issue".?.?
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 8:20:12 AM EDT
Let's face it. Republicans are politicians, just like Democrats. It's a law of nature that politicians are worthless swine. It just happens that Republicans are, on average, slightly less worthless than Democrats. So I play the law of averages and vote Republican. But they are no more saints of freedom than a fuel oil enema is a delightful experience.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 8:29:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By FirearmTom1: It looks like the fight is slowing down. According to news updates. The Democrats are willing to giving the "gun issue".?.?
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Are you sure? Those folks may lay low during the Bush Jr. administration for now; but if a person like Al Gore or Hillary Clinton came to power, you can bet that gun control will be on the front burner. The socialists can't control you 100% until they take away your means to resist them, even if it is symbolic. Those people has a long-term plan of 10-20 years, and they are relentless, whereas when the gunners win one, they go to sleep.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 8:44:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By marvl: Let's face it. Republicans are politicians, just like Democrats. It's a law of nature that politicians are worthless swine. It just happens that Republicans are, on average, slightly less worthless than Democrats. So I play the law of averages and vote Republican. But they are no more saints of freedom than a fuel oil enema is a delightful experience.
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Agreed, but this is the best we can do. Humans are not infalliable. Until something better comes along, this will have to do. Democracy requires the participation of all of the people. Just think, only one-half of the eligible people actually register to vote; out of that only one-half of them actually vote; and out of that only a few actually participates in politics, i.e. working on a political campaign, and even fewer actually run for an office.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 9:08:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SS109: I actually vote Republican in local elections where my vote means more. In the landside elections, I will vote Libertarian so they get federal funding.
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We need the Libertarians to run as Republicans and add input into the Republican party. But the Libertarians that run as Republicans MUST drop their open border and unlimited immigration policy!!!!!
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 9:45:27 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ar10er: Regan machine-gun ban
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Well if Reagan really [b]banned[/b] machineguns, then what's all this talk I hear of people still buying, selling, owning, repairing and shooting them????
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 9:50:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By ar10er: Regan machine-gun ban
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Well if Reagan really [b]banned[/b] machineguns, then what's all this talk I hear of people still buying, selling, owning, repairing and shooting them????
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He banned the sale of newly manufactured machine-guns. So as the ones that are out there now wear out.....
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 10:16:59 AM EDT
Someone seems to be forgetting about the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban, Brady bill, an various other anti-gun laws enacted under Clinton and the other anti-gun liberal Democrats. I'd rather vote for someone who tells me they are pro-gun(Repubs) than someone who is SCREAMING turn in your guns NOW(Demos)!
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 10:45:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2002 10:49:31 AM EDT by cnatra]
Originally Posted By ar10er: Are going to save your 2nd ammendment rights?
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NO, 90% of politicians will do what is the most politically expedient thing to remian in office! OR whatever lines their pocket$ most effectively. Look at what the REP's are doing to Sen. Bob Smith of NH
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 11:10:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ar10er: He banned the sale of newly manufactured machine-guns. So as the ones that are out there now wear out.....
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Problem is they dont wear out, cause all the repair parts are still legal... all it does is rase the price... I take it that no one here has read Neal Knox's column in the current issue of Shotgun News? He explains how the NRA can use the new Campaign Finance Reform Laws to stop the GOP national comittee from using gun owners as a cash cow, and give it greater control in keeping gun owners money from winding up in the hands of RINO's.. very informative.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 11:35:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By cnatra:
Originally Posted By ar10er: Are going to save your 2nd ammendment rights?
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NO, 90% of politicians will do what is the most politically expedient thing to remian in office! OR whatever lines their pocket$ most effectively. Look at what the REP's are doing to Sen. Bob Smith of NH
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I agree. But the work against Sen. Bob Smith was attributed to Sen. Lott in the press I have read. It is ostensibly about low polling numbers for Sen. Smith against a popular democRAT, and a Republican Senatorial challenger that appears stronger in the polls. The fate of the Senate may hang on this vote. I have 2 cents about Sen. Lott: Lott is/was one of the most powerful men on the planet, yet he lost the majority to a friend. Yes Jeffords was a Lott personal friend. Lott several times released to the press he was waging war and calling for war against the democRATS. This "big hat, no cattle" behavior does not make sense. If one has power one wields that power, not talk about wielding power. If I did not know better I would say Lott was a beard, a front for another power. And I don't know better. At best I would say Lott has remarkably bad judgement for someone who has gained so much station and power. 2 cents.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 11:40:56 AM EDT
Douglas Adams might well have been writing about US politics.... "On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people." "Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy." "I did," said Ford. "It is." "So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?" "It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want." "You mean they actually *vote* for the lizards?" "Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug,"of course." "But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?" "Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?" --from "So Long, and Thanks for All The Fish", by Douglas Adams. ............... Sound familiar, anybody?[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 11:44:46 AM EDT
Trent Lott got his power by being the seinor member of the opposition party for six years. The problem is he refuses to admit that he no longer is the seinor Republican. George W. Bush is. And Lott refuses to be a follower.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 11:45:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2002 11:46:57 AM EDT by Torf]
Why don't you just tripe on over to the Democratic Underground and ask this question. "What party do you trust to keep dangerous guns off the streets and in the hands of government where they belong?" a. Democrats b. Republicans c. Other
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 11:49:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Torf: Why don't you just tripe on over to the Democratic Underground and ask this question. "What party do you trust to keep dangerous guns off the streets and in the hands of government where they belong?" a. Democrats b. Republicans c. Other
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Which will prove what, exactly? That there are anti-gunners in the Democratic party, especially its farthest-left fringe? That isn't exactly breaking news.
Link Posted: 5/2/2002 11:56:45 AM EDT
Its hopeless. I just close my eyes and point whenever I vote.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 1:08:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2002 1:11:27 PM EDT by Torf]
Originally Posted By Golgo-13:
Originally Posted By Torf: Why don't you just tripe on over to the Democratic Underground and ask this question. "What party do you trust to keep dangerous guns off the streets and in the hands of government where they belong?" a. Democrats b. Republicans c. Other
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Which will prove what, exactly? That there are anti-gunners in the Democratic party, especially its farthest-left fringe? That isn't exactly breaking news.
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That the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Sometimes you just have to vote against something in order to prevent bad stuff from happening. There is no reason at present to not vote for Republicans. I want to see my freedoms stretched well into the future, not fast-track their demise.
Link Posted: 5/3/2002 4:39:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Torf: That the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Sometimes you just have to vote against something in order to prevent bad stuff from happening. There is no reason at present to not vote for Republicans. I want to see my freedoms stretched well into the future, not fast-track their demise.
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No. The enemy of my enemy is the enemy of my enemy, nothing more. I suggest you pay a little more attention to the voting record of said republicans. It is manifestly obvious that the whole 2nd ammendment issue is strictly one of convenience for them. McCain, George Bush I, Rudy, et. al. are not anamalous within the party. If, on the other hand, you prefer to continue basing important decisons on Arab proverbs, please don't embarass yourself by standing there (dick in hand) w/ a baffled look on your face when your beloved republicans help pass the next piece of anti-liberty legislation.
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 9:23:08 PM EDT
79 louse votes is all we get out of all these hits, come on guys it's very easy to click on a little box, after all you were able to turn the computer on, weren't you?
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 9:38:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ar10er: 79 louse votes is all we get out of all these hits, come on guys it's very easy to click on a little box, after all you were able to turn the computer on, weren't you?
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If you want, I'll vote a couple more times. Oh, wait... this ain't Chicago.
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 9:39:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: In defense of Ron, the 86" Machine Gun ban was part of a greater bill that restored MANY firearm rights. He did NOT have a line item veto cpacity.
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I was only 5 years old at the time, and I did not get involved with guns until 1992. Anyway, what rights did it restore? It seems that a machinegun ban in general would overshadow anything that was restored. It gives a government a huge tactical advantage over a populace when the SHTF so to speak. themao [chainsawkill]
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 10:11:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ar10er: The way I see it, is our posterity will pay for our sins, if we continue to vote for the Repubs. If we don't vote or vote demos. we will get to fight.
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I think that is a very wise statement and I will remember it. I have voted republican in the past because they are destroying the country more slowly than the democrats. Until recently I wasn't quite so pessimistic about the whole thing, but the way the bush administration is bending over to the PC has really got to me. My ideological stance is the same as the republicans--the problem is, none of them stick to the ideals.
Link Posted: 5/4/2002 10:21:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By ar10er: 79 louse votes is all we get out of all these hits, come on guys it's very easy to click on a little box, after all you were able to turn the computer on, weren't you?
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If you want, I'll vote a couple more times. Oh, wait... this ain't Chicago.
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You can vote for BOG now.[:D]
Link Posted: 5/5/2002 6:45:59 AM EDT
"....Government is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant, and a fearful master." -George Washington
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 6:17:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Golgo-13:
Originally Posted By Torf: That the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Sometimes you just have to vote against something in order to prevent bad stuff from happening. There is no reason at present to not vote for Republicans. I want to see my freedoms stretched well into the future, not fast-track their demise.
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No. The enemy of my enemy is the enemy of my enemy, nothing more. I suggest you pay a little more attention to the voting record of said republicans. It is manifestly obvious that the whole 2nd ammendment issue is strictly one of convenience for them. McCain, George Bush I, Rudy, et. al. are not anamalous within the party. If, on the other hand, you prefer to continue basing important decisons on Arab proverbs, please don't embarass yourself by standing there (dick in hand) w/ a baffled look on your face when your beloved republicans help pass the next piece of anti-liberty legislation.
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And as the USA goes down in flames sooner rather than later, I will reflect back on this conversation and remember that Golgo-13 refused to vote for any Republicans simply because a few are opposed to the RKBA. Convienence? Naah. If gun control were really that popular, there would be few Republicans in power to be sure. I don't give a rat's ass who came up with the saying. It is common sense. Go ahead. Bury your empty head in the sand (dick in hand) and congratulate yourself on not getting all wrapped up in the dirty routine of politics. I used to think that liberals would be the end of this country. I never realized that so many misguided conservatives would help them.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 6:20:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By themao:
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG: In defense of Ron, the 86" Machine Gun ban was part of a greater bill that restored MANY firearm rights. He did NOT have a line item veto cpacity.
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I was only 5 years old at the time, and I did not get involved with guns until 1992. Anyway, what rights did it restore? It seems that a machinegun ban in general would overshadow anything that was restored. It gives a government a huge tactical advantage over a populace when the SHTF so to speak. themao [chainsawkill]
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I think that it contained some sort of declaration that the People DID have the right to bear arms, and I think it also preempted the rights of states to forbid the transportation of guns across the borders. There were other things it did also. I think mail order has somthing to do with it. Someone else please step up now...
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 6:25:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Torf:
Originally Posted By Golgo-13:
Originally Posted By Torf: That the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Sometimes you just have to vote against something in order to prevent bad stuff from happening. There is no reason at present to not vote for Republicans. I want to see my freedoms stretched well into the future, not fast-track their demise.
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No. The enemy of my enemy is the enemy of my enemy, nothing more. I suggest you pay a little more attention to the voting record of said republicans. It is manifestly obvious that the whole 2nd ammendment issue is strictly one of convenience for them. McCain, George Bush I, Rudy, et. al. are not anamalous within the party. If, on the other hand, you prefer to continue basing important decisons on Arab proverbs, please don't embarass yourself by standing there (dick in hand) w/ a baffled look on your face when your beloved republicans help pass the next piece of anti-liberty legislation.
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And as the USA goes down in flames sooner rather than later, I will reflect back on this conversation and remember that Golgo-13 refused to vote for any Republicans simply because a few are opposed to the RKBA. Convienence? Naah. If gun control were really that popular, there would be few Republicans in power to be sure. I don't give a rat's ass who came up with the saying. It is common sense. Go ahead. Bury your empty head in the sand (dick in hand) and congratulate yourself on not getting all wrapped up in the dirty routine of politics. I used to think that liberals would be the end of this country. I never realized that so many misguided conservatives would help them.
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Your beloved Republicans just helped pass the Patriot Act without even a peep of dissent. Yeah, they're real freedom lovers for sure. You just keep bleating their praises, though, and maybe they'll get around to you last.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 7:53:42 AM EDT
OK. It sounds like freedom is dead now as opposed to 6 months ago. Why don't you just go have your own little revolution? Sure some of this stuff sucks, but what are you going to do about it? Just keep burying your head in the sand, and it will all blow over right? Your chosen side has no power. Nobody cares about 3rd, 4th, and 5th parties. As long as the Republicans are able to wield power, I will be working to try to direct it. Don't vote. Don't elect Republicans. Don't get off your ass, and guess what? You now have Democratic domination, and if you don't see a difference between the two parties, then you are an idiot, and further discussion is useless. Here is your choice: A) Static or lower taxes Increased enforcement of laws Static or reduced gun laws Energy independence Stronger military Increased or Static property rights Static or reduced social spending Personnal freedom/responsibility B) Static or higher taxes Reducted enforcement of laws (but 100,000 more cops) Increased gun laws Reduced energy production and consumption Static or weaker military Decrease in property rights Increased social spending Corporate regulation/liability The majority of Republicans fall into category A. Not all to be sure, such as the idiots running around New England. The majority of Democrats fall into category B. some Southern types may not apply. Pick your poison carefully. Your freedoms over the next 50 years depend on it.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 4:02:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By drlouis:
Originally Posted By SS109: I actually vote Republican in local elections where my vote means more. In the landside elections, I will vote Libertarian so they get federal funding.
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If a Libertarian takes federal funding you can be sure about one thing: He isnt a Libertarian. Libertarians dont believe in federal funding of *any* political point of view. To use federal tax money to support a political party or candidate is to FORCE another to pay for a candidate or philisophy he or she may find abhorrible.
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Harry Browne qualified for federal matching funds in 1996 (for sure) and 2000 (I think), and turned it down both times.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 4:32:52 PM EDT
I think you just said "we will get to fight." Is that supposed to be a good thing??? Seriously, I don't trust any politician farther that I can throw him, but the Repub's are our only hope for the gun lobby. We must try to change the Republican Party from the inside, instead of voting Libertarian (A COMPLETE AND UTTER WASTE OF A VOTE---don't tell me that you voted Libertarian in order to send a message-nobody is listening the day after the election, TRUST ME! Seriously, if we all nominated more conservative Republican candidates, and gave them our unwavering support, they would not have to worry about making the soccer moms happy with more gun controls. The very same people who want to vote Lib., also do not support the NRA- go figure. A strong Republican party+ a strong, united NRA= Your Freedom Protected BTW, I would vote any politician out in a second, regardless of party, in favor of the candidate who is most pro-gun. That sometimes means taking the lesser of two evils, which is MUCH better than the alternative.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 5:02:21 PM EDT
I think I will have to start another poll. The point I am trying to make is that the Republicans are taking our freedoms slowly, and the Democrats want it all now. From most of the replies I have read, there is little disagreement with this statement. So are we just delaying the inevitable, or do any of you really think there is a chance of turning it around? The point being is, that if we a merely delaying the inevitable, then are we not cowards pushing it of on our posterity?
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 5:39:17 PM EDT
You sound like you want a Civil War II, ASAP. Sorry to disappoint, but that ain't happening any time soon. The way to stop the erosion of your freedoms is to muster and concentrate our political power as gun owners. Some, such as libertarians, fail to realize the importance of not splintering our powers. Check out the back of a dollar bill- see the eagle, grasping the bundle of arrows? When the arrows are closely bound together, they are unbreakable---let that sink in on you, and think about it a bit before you post again. By seperating our power as gun owners, we ultimately weaken and destroy the very cause we claim to be so fervently protecting.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 5:45:54 PM EDT
You are one of the few that think it is going to turn around. Could you provide some evidence?
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 6:02:42 PM EDT
Could anybody give me an example of a serious return of freedoms in the last 30 years? Please prove me an idiot, I would like to see something positive going on. PS. a good defense of freedom doesn't count, it must be a return of freedom.
Link Posted: 5/6/2002 6:11:34 PM EDT
Reagan did not ban machine guns, you can still buy them (in states that allow MG ownership). Also, can't you make a new machine gun with a new pre '86 registered auto sear? I've heard about FN-FNC full auto conversions going on since 1986. If I recall correctly Reagan re-legalized gun shows, and re-legalized interstate sales of firearms. Can anybody enlighten me on the specifics of the 1986 firearms legislation?
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