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Posted: 4/27/2014 12:55:14 PM EDT
I just got bitched at by an MD (Wife's best friend, no pics, you don't want them of one, you're not getting them of the other) that ketogenic diets are dangerous, will send my cholesterol, BP, etc etc, through the roof and make me sick as hell, as well as not resulting in any weight loss.

Now, this woman has seen me every few weeks or so for a few years, has seen me do a keto diet, lost lots of weight, and fix my diabetes. She's seen my lab results go from high normal to high on cholesterol, lipids, triglycerides down to low normal on them all.

She on the other hand, has been doing a traditional higher carb, low fat diet, is now pre diabetic, has gained weight and her numbers are up. She says she's on a tried and true method and I'm on a fad diet.

The evidence is right in front of her face, it's undeniable. She denies it.

How can smart people be so damn stupid?
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 12:58:26 PM EDT


In her defense, it has all the hallmarks of a fad, and it can fuck some people up. But she is face to face with proof that it's working for you, so yeah, that's pretty silly.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 12:58:35 PM EDT
I can't believe anyone still buys into the low fat bullshit.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:00:38 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Jbclark84:
I can't believe anyone still buys into the low fat bullshit.
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Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:00:58 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BigeasySnow:


In her defense, it has all the hallmarks of a fad, and it can fuck some people up. But she is face to face with proof that it's working for you, so yeah, that's pretty silly.
View Quote

The people that get fucked up by it, in my experience, are ones that get an outline from someone they know and think they know about it and start doing it. People here are a good example, I don't know how many times arfcom has told me over the years that Atkins is a meat and eggs diet.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:01:14 PM EDT
CSB...


Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:01:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:02:07 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Fairplay:
CSB...


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It must be, you took the time to respond.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:02:39 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:


Yeah, she's so incredibly stupid to not draw general conclusions from a sample of ONE data point in each condition.

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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
I just got bitched at by an MD (Wife's best friend, no pics, you don't want them of one, you're not getting them of the other) that ketogenic diets are dangerous, will send my cholesterol, BP, etc etc, through the roof and make me sick as hell, as well as not resulting in any weight loss.

Now, this woman has seen me every few weeks or so for a few years, has seen me do a keto diet, lost lots of weight, and fix my diabetes. She's seen my lab results go from high normal to high on cholesterol, lipids, triglycerides down to low normal on them all.

She on the other hand, has been doing a traditional higher carb, low fat diet, is now pre diabetic, has gained weight and her numbers are up. She says she's on a tried and true method and I'm on a fad diet.

The evidence is right in front of her face, it's undeniable. She denies it.

How can smart people be so damn stupid?


Yeah, she's so incredibly stupid to not draw general conclusions from a sample of ONE data point in each condition.


If you only knew. You obviously don't.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:03:23 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Jbclark84:
I can't believe anyone still buys into the low fat bullshit.
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Sadly, I have to do the low fat thing. I simply cannot tolerate a lot of fat anymore. Fuck You cancer you took bacon away from me.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:03:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
I just got bitched at by an MD (Wife's best friend, no pics, you don't want them of one, you're not getting them of the other) that ketogenic diets are dangerous, will send my cholesterol, BP, etc etc, through the roof and make me sick as hell, as well as not resulting in any weight loss.

Now, this woman has seen me every few weeks or so for a few years, has seen me do a keto diet, lost lots of weight, and fix my diabetes. She's seen my lab results go from high normal to high on cholesterol, lipids, triglycerides down to low normal on them all.

She on the other hand, has been doing a traditional higher carb, low fat diet, is now pre diabetic, has gained weight and her numbers are up. She says she's on a tried and true method and I'm on a fad diet.

The evidence is right in front of her face, it's undeniable. She denies it.

How can smart people be so damn stupid?
View Quote
Too bad I will never get the 45 seconds back that it took me to read that and type this response....
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:03:54 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:

The people that get fucked up by it, in my experience, are ones that get an outline from someone they know and think they know about it and start doing it. People here are a good example, I don't know how many times arfcom has told me over the years that Atkins is a meat and eggs diet.
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Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By BigeasySnow:


In her defense, it has all the hallmarks of a fad, and it can fuck some people up. But she is face to face with proof that it's working for you, so yeah, that's pretty silly.

The people that get fucked up by it, in my experience, are ones that get an outline from someone they know and think they know about it and start doing it. People here are a good example, I don't know how many times arfcom has told me over the years that Atkins is a meat and eggs diet.



Lol, it about killed me.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:04:39 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BigeasySnow:



Lol, it about killed me.
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Originally Posted By BigeasySnow:
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By BigeasySnow:


In her defense, it has all the hallmarks of a fad, and it can fuck some people up. But she is face to face with proof that it's working for you, so yeah, that's pretty silly.

The people that get fucked up by it, in my experience, are ones that get an outline from someone they know and think they know about it and start doing it. People here are a good example, I don't know how many times arfcom has told me over the years that Atkins is a meat and eggs diet.



Lol, it about killed me.

I still think you have something else going on.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:05:31 PM EDT
I thought carbs have always been considered a super no-no fat loss diets...
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:07:52 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:

I still think you have something else going on.
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Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By BigeasySnow:
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By BigeasySnow:


In her defense, it has all the hallmarks of a fad, and it can fuck some people up. But she is face to face with proof that it's working for you, so yeah, that's pretty silly.

The people that get fucked up by it, in my experience, are ones that get an outline from someone they know and think they know about it and start doing it. People here are a good example, I don't know how many times arfcom has told me over the years that Atkins is a meat and eggs diet.



Lol, it about killed me.

I still think you have something else going on.


Could be, but I've never had anything else wrong with me. And the BP drop makes sense...
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:09:28 PM EDT
I've never heard of low-carb fucking anyone up. How's that work?
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:09:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2014 1:10:20 PM EDT by 32ACP]
Deleted.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:13:33 PM EDT
Tell her to read the book Sugar Busters. it is a very doable life style change. Cuts out the sugar and the bad carbs.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:14:49 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BASE:
I've never heard of low-carb fucking anyone up. How's that work?
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Two things.

It requires that you REALLY stay on top of hydration.
A tiny percentage of people have a BP issue from it. I've heard of it with one person, snow.

VS. the high carb low fat diet that has just put the third person I know in the hospital this year, all 3 for heart procedures due to problems that worsened with dieticians and/or MDs telling them to get on that diet.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:15:35 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By passgas55:
Tell her to read the book Sugar Busters. it is a very doable life style change. Cuts out the sugar and the bad carbs.
View Quote

She has accused me of faking my own test results, she doesn't care what she reads, if it didn't come from med school, she ignores it.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:16:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2014 1:20:36 PM EDT by djkest]
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Originally Posted By Jbclark84:
I can't believe anyone still buys into the low fat bullshit.
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This. My wife is a dietician and she isn't a fan of low-fat diets. If anything needs to be cut, it's carbs.

As to why? Most people are being taught by old teachers, teachers of the "old school". So they are slow to change their thinking even in the face of good evidence. The medical community has been like this for a while now, and it effects almost every aspect. Slow to change direction or reconsider what they know. Old teachers, old books, old methods. The only reason "low fat" diets ever worked was by secretly cutting calories, but they weren't really good diets. You can see it in the supermarkets still with all the "low fat" and "fat free" junk food that they sell, loaded with sugar but devoid of taste.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:16:34 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:

The people that get fucked up by it, in my experience, are ones that get an outline from someone they know and think they know about it and start doing it. People here are a good example, I don't know how many times arfcom has told me over the years that Atkins is a meat and eggs diet.
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Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By BigeasySnow:


In her defense, it has all the hallmarks of a fad, and it can fuck some people up. But she is face to face with proof that it's working for you, so yeah, that's pretty silly.

The people that get fucked up by it, in my experience, are ones that get an outline from someone they know and think they know about it and start doing it. People here are a good example, I don't know how many times arfcom has told me over the years that Atkins is a meat and eggs diet.



what is a ketogenic diet if not meat/eggs + low starch vegetables?

it's pretty much the induction phase of atkins in perpetuity

Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:17:34 PM EDT
I won a hundred bucks from my doc when my weight and cholesterol dropped on a mostly bacon diet.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:18:03 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By djkest:


This. My wife is a dietician and she isn't a fan of low-fat diets. If anything needs to be cut, it's carbs.
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Originally Posted By djkest:
Originally Posted By Jbclark84:
I can't believe anyone still buys into the low fat bullshit.


This. My wife is a dietician and she isn't a fan of low-fat diets. If anything needs to be cut, it's carbs.



my PCP also suggests a low carb diet for weight control. but to him it's anything under 100g of carbs per day.

not the ketogenic diet.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:19:04 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By dog-meat:



what is a ketogenic diet if not meat/eggs + low starch vegetables?

it's pretty much the induction phase of atkins in perpetuity

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Originally Posted By dog-meat:
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By BigeasySnow:


In her defense, it has all the hallmarks of a fad, and it can fuck some people up. But she is face to face with proof that it's working for you, so yeah, that's pretty silly.

The people that get fucked up by it, in my experience, are ones that get an outline from someone they know and think they know about it and start doing it. People here are a good example, I don't know how many times arfcom has told me over the years that Atkins is a meat and eggs diet.



what is a ketogenic diet if not meat/eggs + low starch vegetables?

it's pretty much the induction phase of atkins in perpetuity


And what does Atkins put the emphasis on? Leafy green vegetables. Meat and eggs only will result in ketosis and weight loss, once you take your monthly dump.
He also suggested other things, like being under a doctor's care first, and taking vitamins for making up losses from cutting a few things out.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:20:11 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:

She has accused me of faking my own test results, she doesn't care what she reads, if it didn't come from med school, she ignores it.
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Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By passgas55:
Tell her to read the book Sugar Busters. it is a very doable life style change. Cuts out the sugar and the bad carbs.

She has accused me of faking my own test results, she doesn't care what she reads, if it didn't come from med school, she ignores it.
yea... she probably shouldnt be a dr..
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:20:12 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By dog-meat:



my PCP also suggests a low carb diet for weight control. but to him it's anything under 100g of carbs per day.

not the ketogenic diet.
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Originally Posted By dog-meat:
Originally Posted By djkest:
Originally Posted By Jbclark84:
I can't believe anyone still buys into the low fat bullshit.


This. My wife is a dietician and she isn't a fan of low-fat diets. If anything needs to be cut, it's carbs.



my PCP also suggests a low carb diet for weight control. but to him it's anything under 100g of carbs per day.

not the ketogenic diet.

Mine will hand people the Atkins book. He's been an administrator for clinical studies on it and has seen huge test samples on the effects.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:22:13 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Cypher15:
yea... she probably shouldnt be a dr..
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Originally Posted By Cypher15:
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By passgas55:
Tell her to read the book Sugar Busters. it is a very doable life style change. Cuts out the sugar and the bad carbs.

She has accused me of faking my own test results, she doesn't care what she reads, if it didn't come from med school, she ignores it.
yea... she probably shouldnt be a dr..

I call her a 'flat earther'. If it didn't get said in med school, it's not true.
I recently had a PA tell me to continue taking my diabetes meds, despite perfect sugars without them, because within the previous year I'd had a high A1C.
The concept of self induced hypoglycemia was apparently foreign to her.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:22:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BASE:
I've never heard of low-carb fucking anyone up. How's that work?
View Quote


It was so weird. Low carb is fine, but my attempt to cut the carbs all the way down may have led to a salt deficiency which dropped my BP enough that I felt really sick, to the point that I couldn't eat and felt like I was going to pass out. I was drinking a lot of water and eating salt, but it just didn't work. It was bad.

The salt/BP thing is just a theory. I can't think of what else it could have been.

http://www.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/1b89uv/science_avoiding_keto_flu_explained/\

Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:23:20 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:

Two things.

It requires that you REALLY stay on top of hydration.
A tiny percentage of people have a BP issue from it. I've heard of it with one person, snow.

VS. the high carb low fat diet that has just put the third person I know in the hospital this year, all 3 for heart procedures due to problems that worsened with dieticians and/or MDs telling them to get on that diet.
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Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By BASE:
I've never heard of low-carb fucking anyone up. How's that work?

Two things.

It requires that you REALLY stay on top of hydration.
A tiny percentage of people have a BP issue from it. I've heard of it with one person, snow.

VS. the high carb low fat diet that has just put the third person I know in the hospital this year, all 3 for heart procedures due to problems that worsened with dieticians and/or MDs telling them to get on that diet.


I see. I went and googled it after my post and found some info on the hydration issue. I still don't understand how it would dick with BP. My BP and cholesterol both went down when I did the low carb thing a couple years ago. I don't do it anymore, but I believe I learned some healthy habits from it. It was surprising seeing the glycemic index of some foods I never really thought were that bad.

I think we generally eat far too many trashy carbs these days.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:23:31 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
self induced hypoglycemia ...
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What does that mean?
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:25:05 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By dog-meat:



What does that mean?
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Originally Posted By dog-meat:
Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
self induced hypoglycemia ...



What does that mean?

Taking a pill to give myself hypoglycemia. She didn't understand that it would happen if I had normal sugar and took a pill designed for someone with hyperglycemia.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:30:43 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BigeasySnow:


It was so weird. Low carb is fine, but my attempt to cut the carbs all the way down may have led to a salt deficiency which dropped my BP enough that I felt really sick, to the point that I couldn't eat and felt like I was going to pass out. I was drinking a lot of water and eating salt, but it just didn't work. It was bad.

The salt/BP thing is just a theory. I can't think of what else it could have been.

http://www.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/1b89uv/science_avoiding_keto_flu_explained/\

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Originally Posted By BigeasySnow:
Originally Posted By BASE:
I've never heard of low-carb fucking anyone up. How's that work?


It was so weird. Low carb is fine, but my attempt to cut the carbs all the way down may have led to a salt deficiency which dropped my BP enough that I felt really sick, to the point that I couldn't eat and felt like I was going to pass out. I was drinking a lot of water and eating salt, but it just didn't work. It was bad.

The salt/BP thing is just a theory. I can't think of what else it could have been.

http://www.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/1b89uv/science_avoiding_keto_flu_explained/\



Shit yeah. I can see why you might make that connection. When I came back home a few years back I decided to try the zero carb thing. The beginning was rough. I was taking BP meds which was part of the reason I did it. My doc insisted I keep taking the meds and I passed out a few times after sitting for a while and then standing. So I'm sure it was affecting my BP. I stopped taking the meds eventually, so I saw all of that as a good thing.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:37:30 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By BASE:


Shit yeah. I can see why you might make that connection. When I came back home a few years back I decided to try the zero carb thing. The beginning was rough. I was taking BP meds which was part of the reason I did it. My doc insisted I keep taking the meds and I passed out a few times after sitting for a while and then standing. So I'm sure it was affecting my BP. I stopped taking the meds eventually, so I saw all of that as a good thing.
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Originally Posted By BASE:
Originally Posted By BigeasySnow:
Originally Posted By BASE:
I've never heard of low-carb fucking anyone up. How's that work?


It was so weird. Low carb is fine, but my attempt to cut the carbs all the way down may have led to a salt deficiency which dropped my BP enough that I felt really sick, to the point that I couldn't eat and felt like I was going to pass out. I was drinking a lot of water and eating salt, but it just didn't work. It was bad.

The salt/BP thing is just a theory. I can't think of what else it could have been.

http://www.reddit.com/r/keto/comments/1b89uv/science_avoiding_keto_flu_explained/\



Shit yeah. I can see why you might make that connection. When I came back home a few years back I decided to try the zero carb thing. The beginning was rough. I was taking BP meds which was part of the reason I did it. My doc insisted I keep taking the meds and I passed out a few times after sitting for a while and then standing. So I'm sure it was affecting my BP. I stopped taking the meds eventually, so I saw all of that as a good thing.


I went low carb a few months ago and went through the usual "low carb flu". It went away and I felt amazing. So much energy. Low carb, reasonably low fat seems to really agree with me. The keto attempt fucked me up for a couple weeks and I've yet to get back to where I was before the setback.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:43:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/27/2014 1:44:09 PM EDT by brassburn]
Here's the thing. For some reason, we tend to take people with a very special and usually rather narrow skillset or education (Doctor, Lawyer, Police, Firefighter, Engineer, Enterprise IT, etc. etc.) and ascribe to them characteristics of all around high intelligence, worldliness, and common sense.

What a load of shit that is.

I've met total fucking idiots in every one of those fields. We all have. Do they have skill and enough intelligence to get into the field? Absolutely. Does it mean that they are "smart" enough not to be a raging liberal socialist, a racist, a narcissist, a drug addict, a thief, (you get the picture)? Absolutely NOT.

People are people. You'll find them dumb, smart, evil, and honorable in every walk of life and at every age. I don't know why, in general, we expect different.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:43:05 PM EDT
The plural of anecdote is not data, and test subjects of one do not proper medical research and conclusions make.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:44:42 PM EDT
Most medical schools still don't have courses in nutrition for medical students. What nutrition info they do get, is the same old "low fat-high carb" song and dance of the past few decades, which American culture has been steeped in, so they believe it.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:46:46 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
The plural of anecdote is not data, and test subjects of one do not proper medical research and conclusions make.
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Reading the thread is for girls!

The doctor that put me on my diet has administered a clinical trial of it, parts of which have been published in JAMA, calling Atkins the most effective of the tested diets, despite going against conventional wisdom. Yep, Being published in JAMA, really a test subject of one.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:50:00 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:

She has accused me of faking my own test results, she doesn't care what she reads, if it didn't come from med school, she ignores it.
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Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By passgas55:
Tell her to read the book Sugar Busters. it is a very doable life style change. Cuts out the sugar and the bad carbs.

She has accused me of faking my own test results, she doesn't care what she reads, if it didn't come from med school, she ignores it.



You are asking her to dismiss what she views as knowledge gained through empirical research based on your claims and personal experiences. That is the opposite of science and scientific thinking - it is instead the basis of all primitive traditional medicine and other pseudosciences, from astrology to phrenology.

If you want to persuade her, you only chance is by offering actual research conducted by reputable professionals.

Or, maybe she is just an idiot. But, demanding she ignore what she believes is the findings of empirical research because of you personal experiences, is just absurd on its face.

You don't have to look far to find someone who claims their health was improved through prayer, or by doing yoga, or getting magical tattoos.
Link Posted: 4/27/2014 1:50:58 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:

Reading the thread is for girls!

The doctor that put me on my diet has administered a clinical trial of it, parts of which have been published in JAMA, calling Atkins the most effective of the tested diets, despite going against conventional wisdom. Yep, Being published in JAMA, really a test subject of one.
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Originally Posted By Dan_Gray:
Originally Posted By Bohr_Adam:
The plural of anecdote is not data, and test subjects of one do not proper medical research and conclusions make.

Reading the thread is for girls!

The doctor that put me on my diet has administered a clinical trial of it, parts of which have been published in JAMA, calling Atkins the most effective of the tested diets, despite going against conventional wisdom. Yep, Being published in JAMA, really a test subject of one.



I was responding to your OP. Don't blame others when you build your case one way at first, than add new details later.
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