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Posted: 4/22/2014 9:03:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/22/2014 9:11:33 AM EDT by AlvinYork]
How is a progressive tax equal justice under the law? How is it constitutional? let alone whether or not an income tax is legal.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:09:41 AM EDT
Anytime somebody wants to talk seriously to me about politics I ask them if they believe in a graduated tax system.

When they say "yes" I call them a communist and refuse further discussion.


Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:21:58 AM EDT
Take roads, for instance, assuming government in general builds and maintains them.
It would seem likely that business and trades would make more use of these than average, to the point you might say that they benefit the wealthy more than the poor, but benefit all to some degree. The wealthy (a broad description) probably find a certain level of progressive taxation benefits them but there are limits. Those roads can be used to move poor and wealthy alike.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:23:58 AM EDT
FPNI


I get to define fairness but you don't. Now give me a bunch of your money.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:25:52 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By dogsplat:
Anytime somebody wants to talk seriously to me about politics I ask them if they believe in a graduated tax system.

When they say "yes" I call them a communist and refuse further discussion.


View Quote



Works for me!

I was once called a regressive for suggesting a flat tax. Wore that badge with honor...
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:30:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:32:44 AM EDT
The only part of the progressive tax that actually works is on the lower and middle class. The rich pay folks to find ways to reduce and evade taxes.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:35:15 AM EDT
I've argued that a progressive tax runs afoul of the equal protection clause.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:37:31 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Eukatae:


At a flat 20% tax rate rich people still pay more for that road.
With our progressive tax the rich pay for 90% of that road.

What if we include other factors. Rich people rarely avail themselves of many of the very expensive services of government yet pay for most of it.
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Originally Posted By Eukatae:
Originally Posted By nightstalker:
Take roads, for instance, assuming government in general builds and maintains them.
It would seem likely that business and trades would make more use of these than average, to the point you might say that they benefit the wealthy more than the poor, but benefit all to some degree. The wealthy (a broad description) probably find a certain level of progressive taxation benefits them but there are limits. Those roads can be used to move poor and wealthy alike.


At a flat 20% tax rate rich people still pay more for that road.
With our progressive tax the rich pay for 90% of that road.

What if we include other factors. Rich people rarely avail themselves of many of the very expensive services of government yet pay for most of it.



That's totally fair!

Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:39:57 AM EDT
Life isnt fair. You agreed to pay your taxes by accepting the benefit of holding a job in America. Your choice, pay the tax or dont work and have no tax liability. There is no fucking 'fair' or 'constitutional' about it.

Quit whining about communism and progressivism.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:40:26 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By jough43:
The only part of the progressive tax that actually works is on the lower and middle class. The rich pay folks to find ways to reduce and evade taxes.
View Quote


The "lowest income" 47% of Americans pay zero federal income tax. What a burden.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:42:01 AM EDT
The first time I heard our graduated tax scheme referred to as progressive and other graduated tax schemes as regressive, I got into an argument.

"There's nothing progressive about it. It punishes success. How the hell does that promote progress?"

Now that I have a better understanding of what they mean by progress . . .
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:42:15 AM EDT
The rich have more money, so each individual dollar is worth less to them. In order to tax fairly, the rich need to pay a much higher percentage to be taxed equally to a poor person.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:43:01 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Skillshot:
The rich have more money, so each individual dollar is worth less to them. In order to tax fairly, the rich need to pay a much higher percentage to be taxed equally to a poor person.
View Quote
Most poor people pay no taxes.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:44:09 AM EDT
Progressive taxation is the only reason why I love the lottery. At least it gets some money out of the leeches.

Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:44:52 AM EDT
Marx says it's completely fair.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:44:59 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Most poor people pay no taxes.
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Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Originally Posted By Skillshot:
The rich have more money, so each individual dollar is worth less to them. In order to tax fairly, the rich need to pay a much higher percentage to be taxed equally to a poor person.
Most poor people pay no taxes.


someone has to pick up the slack
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:45:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/22/2014 9:46:13 AM EDT by Chairborne]
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Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Most poor people pay no taxes.
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Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Originally Posted By Skillshot:
The rich have more money, so each individual dollar is worth less to them. In order to tax fairly, the rich need to pay a much higher percentage to be taxed equally to a poor person.
Most poor people pay no taxes.


People here are super quick to point out that they pay Social Security, FICA, and Medicare tax (if they work) and sales tax (even though it's local and not federal) and road and fuel taxes assuming they drive.

I say that's fine and good. Those taxes make it possible to use the roads, use public schools, etc. None of them except Federal income tax enable the Fed govt to run, and by extension, most state programs. If you pay no net federal taxes, you should not be allowed to vote in federal elections. Period.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:46:04 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Skillshot:
The rich have more money, so each individual dollar is worth less to them. In order to tax fairly, the rich need to pay a much higher percentage to be taxed equally to a poor person.
View Quote



Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:46:08 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Zaphod:



Works for me!

I was once called a regressive for suggesting a flat tax. Wore that badge with honor...
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Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Originally Posted By dogsplat:
Anytime somebody wants to talk seriously to me about politics I ask them if they believe in a graduated tax system.

When they say "yes" I call them a communist and refuse further discussion.





Works for me!

I was once called a regressive for suggesting a flat tax. Wore that badge with honor...


When you say flat tax, are you talking about a flat percentage of income or, government budget / every registered voter = everyone pays the the exact same amount? If income, then that is very progressive in my book...
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:46:46 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By AKsala:
Life isnt fair. You agreed to pay your taxes by accepting the benefit of holding a job in America. Your choice, pay the tax or dont work and have no tax liability. There is no fucking 'fair' or 'constitutional' about it.

Quit whining about communism and progressivism.
View Quote




Does my sarcasm meter need calibration?
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:46:56 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Chairborne:


People here are super quick to point out that they pay Social Security, FICA, and Medicare tax (if they work) and sales tax (even though it's local and not federal) and road and fuel taxes assuming they drive.

I say that's fine and good. Those taxes make it possible to use the roads, use public schools, etc. None of them except Federal income tax enable the Fed govt to run, and by extension, most state programs. If you pay no net federal taxes, you should not be allowed to vote in federal elections. Period.
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Originally Posted By Chairborne:
Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Originally Posted By Skillshot:
The rich have more money, so each individual dollar is worth less to them. In order to tax fairly, the rich need to pay a much higher percentage to be taxed equally to a poor person.
Most poor people pay no taxes.


People here are super quick to point out that they pay Social Security, FICA, and Medicare tax (if they work) and sales tax (even though it's local and not federal) and road and fuel taxes assuming they drive.

I say that's fine and good. Those taxes make it possible to use the roads, use public schools, etc. None of them except Federal income tax enable the Fed govt to run, and by extension, most state programs. If you pay no net federal taxes, you should not be allowed to vote in federal elections. Period.
Yeah, but all of that is offset by EITC
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:47:22 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By AKsala:
Life isnt fair. You agreed to pay your taxes by accepting the benefit of holding a job in America. Your choice, pay the tax or dont work and have no tax liability. There is no fucking 'fair' or 'constitutional' about it.

Quit whining about communism and progressivism.
View Quote


Sure thing, Chairman Mao.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:47:32 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By DeltaElite777:
Progressive taxation is the only reason why I love the lottery. At least it gets some money out of the leeches.

View Quote



The scratch off tickets the fucking scumbags buy with their EBT card? Hardly.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:47:40 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By AKsala:
Life isnt fair. You agreed to pay your taxes by accepting the benefit of holding a job in America. Your choice, pay the tax or dont work and have no tax liability. There is no fucking 'fair' or 'constitutional' about it.

Quit whining about communism and progressivism.
View Quote

What ever you say comrade.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:48:19 AM EDT
No percentages; everyone should pay the same tax.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:48:26 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Skillshot:
The rich have more money, so each individual dollar is worth less to them. In order to tax fairly, the rich need to pay a much higher percentage to be taxed equally to a poor person.
View Quote


Not sure if serious...
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:51:14 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By KingRat:
No percentages; everyone should pay the same tax.
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That, or get rid of federal income taxes and go with The Fair Tax.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:51:32 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By AlvinYork:

What ever you say comrade.
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Originally Posted By AlvinYork:
Originally Posted By AKsala:
Life isnt fair. You agreed to pay your taxes by accepting the benefit of holding a job in America. Your choice, pay the tax or dont work and have no tax liability. There is no fucking 'fair' or 'constitutional' about it.

Quit whining about communism and progressivism.

What ever you say comrade.


You are a conquered person living in the United States. You will follow the rules:

heres your choices:

1)go live hand to mouth on some homestead somewhere
2)dont make more than the minimum income required to file a return
3)sit down, shut the fuck up, fold your hands and pay your unfair taxes.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:52:37 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By AKsala:


You are a conquered person living in the United States. You will follow the rules:

heres your choices:

1)go live hand to mouth on some homestead somewhere
2)dont make more than the minimum income required to file a return
3)sit down, shut the fuck up, fold your hands and pay your unfair taxes.
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Originally Posted By AKsala:
Originally Posted By AlvinYork:
Originally Posted By AKsala:
Life isnt fair. You agreed to pay your taxes by accepting the benefit of holding a job in America. Your choice, pay the tax or dont work and have no tax liability. There is no fucking 'fair' or 'constitutional' about it.

Quit whining about communism and progressivism.

What ever you say comrade.


You are a conquered person living in the United States. You will follow the rules:

heres your choices:

1)go live hand to mouth on some homestead somewhere
2)dont make more than the minimum income required to file a return
3)sit down, shut the fuck up, fold your hands and pay your unfair taxes.
Care to elaborate on that?
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:54:37 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Skillshot:
The rich have more money, so each individual dollar is worth less to them. In order to tax fairly, the rich need to pay a much higher percentage to be taxed equally to a poor person.
View Quote


This supposes that the purpose of taxes is to punish the rich and benefit the poor. As opposed to just having a system of collecting money to run the government in an equitable manner.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:54:52 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Chairborne:
The "lowest income" 47% of Americans pay zero federal income tax. What a burden.
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I'll just drink a little gas and piss on the fire.

Per a recent report from the CBO; in 2012 in the United States the CBO divided taxpayers into 5 groups:
Bottom 20% of income earners, 21-40%, 41-60%, 61-80% and 81-100%.

The top 20% of income earners paid 93% of all income tax revenue collected by the IRS.

The top 40% of income earners paid 106% of all income tax revenue collected by the IRS.

Yup, 106% of the total tax burden!!!
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:55:37 AM EDT
Our current system would be comparable to charging people for retail goods and service based upon how much they make.

Even a flat tax (percentage) penalizes those who make more.

The more you get away from X amount per person, the more socialist it becomes.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:55:41 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Care to elaborate on that?
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Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:
Originally Posted By AKsala:
Originally Posted By AlvinYork:
Originally Posted By AKsala:
Life isnt fair. You agreed to pay your taxes by accepting the benefit of holding a job in America. Your choice, pay the tax or dont work and have no tax liability. There is no fucking 'fair' or 'constitutional' about it.

Quit whining about communism and progressivism.

What ever you say comrade.


You are a conquered person living in the United States. You will follow the rules:

heres your choices:

1)go live hand to mouth on some homestead somewhere
2)dont make more than the minimum income required to file a return
3)sit down, shut the fuck up, fold your hands and pay your unfair taxes.
Care to elaborate on that?

Not in my nature, I like being the stubborn nail sticking up.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:56:42 AM EDT
Fair? Legal?

Look - I believe the rich sometimes pay too many taxes. Most uber rich only pay capital gains, because that's their source of revenue, which is much much lower. Earned income brackets are way too high and only punish people like doctors and lawyers who work hard for their money.

Poor people also pay no taxes, which is stupid because then they don't have any skin in the game. Paying taxes means you have a vested interest in how the money is spent. So that's also an issue.

The idea behind tax brackets? Simple - the money $$ you make, the higher % of it becomes disposable. The more that's disposable, the more the government feels justified in taking. If you can't understand that concept, the debate really isn't worth having.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:57:39 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Skillshot:
The rich have more money, so each individual dollar is worth less to them. In order to tax fairly, the rich need to pay a much higher percentage to be taxed equally to a poor person.
View Quote


Da Comrade! I know you are trolling, but I think we should have progressive traffic fines, like the Scandinavians do. Get a speeding ticket in your Ferrari Mr. Gates? That'll cost you $500K.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 9:59:52 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By AKsala:
Life isnt fair. You agreed to pay your taxes by accepting the benefit of holding a job in America. Your choice, pay the tax or dont work and have no tax liability. There is no fucking 'fair' or 'constitutional' about it.

Quit whining about communism and progressivism.
View Quote

What happened to equal protection under the law?
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 10:00:41 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:
Our current system would be comparable to charging people for retail goods and service based upon how much they make.

Even a flat tax (percentage) penalizes those who make more.

The more you get away from X amount per person, the more socialist it becomes.
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Please tell me you aren't serious.

I'm all for lower taxes, including redoing our current brackets to make it more like a flat tax.

But X per person?

Yeah, that would never be abused.....
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 10:03:14 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By desmando:

What happened to equal protection under the law?
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Originally Posted By desmando:
Originally Posted By AKsala:
Life isnt fair. You agreed to pay your taxes by accepting the benefit of holding a job in America. Your choice, pay the tax or dont work and have no tax liability. There is no fucking 'fair' or 'constitutional' about it.

Quit whining about communism and progressivism.

What happened to equal protection under the law?


Equal protection under the law? Equal protection of what exactly?

You have the right to pay the same amount of taxes as your neighbor, who makes exactly the same as you do and has the same sized family.

How long before someone starts talking about ex-post facto in this thread?
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 10:05:19 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By jough43:
The only part of the progressive tax that actually works is on the lower and middle class. The rich pay folks to find ways to reduce and evade taxes.
View Quote

Not really, Something like 70% of the taxes paid are paid by rich people.
And a good percentage of Americans pay no income tax and some even get tax credits back.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 10:07:07 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By LibertarianYankee:


Please tell me you aren't serious.

I'm all for lower taxes, including redoing our current brackets to make it more like a flat tax.

But X per person?

Yeah, that would never be abused.....
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Originally Posted By LibertarianYankee:
Originally Posted By AmericanPeople:
Our current system would be comparable to charging people for retail goods and service based upon how much they make.

Even a flat tax (percentage) penalizes those who make more.

The more you get away from X amount per person, the more socialist it becomes.


Please tell me you aren't serious.

I'm all for lower taxes, including redoing our current brackets to make it more like a flat tax.

But X per person?

Yeah, that would never be abused.....


How could it be abused?
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 10:08:08 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 10:09:52 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
"fairness" is an entirely subjective term, and depends entirely on self-interest and how you frame the issue. So arguing about the fairness of one approach versus the other is largely pointless, because you will not convince people that simply see the issue in a different way.

That said, I think the argument could be made for "fair" taxes being entire consumption-based. So drop all income taxes, and just have a much larger sales tax. That way, the rich WILL pay more, because they spend more - but the 25% tax they pay for their Aston Martin and yacht will be the exact same rate as the 25% the lower-income person pays when he buys a small Hyundai and a dinghy. That way, you can make shitloads of money - and YOU DECIDE how much you want to be taxed. You don't want to be taxed a lot, just live a modest lifestyle, and you can keep all of your money.

But, I am sure someone will disagree, and would think that's horribly unfair.


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I disagree. That's horribly unfair.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 10:10:18 AM EDT
If the labor participation rate is just 63%, then there is 37% of the population not paying any FITW, Medicare or SS.

Get rid of the income tax entirely.

Then go to a larger federal sales tax. That would capture everybody, including all the illegals that are here working cash on the barrel head jobs.



Link Posted: 4/22/2014 10:11:19 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By MotorMouth:
How could it be abused?
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Let's see. How about this - the rich elites that run the country set taxes equal to $20k per person per year regardless of employment status.

Can't afford that? Public housing for you, and you lose your right to vote.

I swear some people don't think things through.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 10:11:22 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
"fairness" is an entirely subjective term, and depends entirely on self-interest and how you frame the issue. So arguing about the fairness of one approach versus the other is largely pointless, because you will not convince people that simply see the issue in a different way.

That said, I think the argument could be made for "fair" taxes being entire consumption-based. So drop all income taxes, and just have a much larger sales tax. That way, the rich WILL pay more, because they spend more - but the 25% tax they pay for their Aston Martin and yacht will be the exact same rate as the 25% the lower-income person pays when he buys a small Hyundai and a dinghy. That way, you can make shitloads of money - and YOU DECIDE how much you want to be taxed. You don't want to be taxed a lot, just live a modest lifestyle, and you can keep all of your money.

But, I am sure someone will disagree, and would think that's horribly unfair.


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I agree with you 100%, but how many countries have a VAT and no additional taxes? One problem with a large/onerous sales tax/VAT is that it really encourages tax cheats. Places like Greece have very large VATs, and a massive black market aimed at avoiding paying it.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 10:11:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 10:12:05 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
"fairness" is an entirely subjective term, and depends entirely on self-interest and how you frame the issue. So arguing about the fairness of one approach versus the other is largely pointless, because you will not convince people that simply see the issue in a different way.

That said, I think the argument could be made for "fair" taxes being entire consumption-based. So drop all income taxes, and just have a much larger sales tax. That way, the rich WILL pay more, because they spend more - but the 25% tax they pay for their Aston Martin and yacht will be the exact same rate as the 25% the lower-income person pays when he buys a small Hyundai and a dinghy. That way, you can make shitloads of money - and YOU DECIDE how much you want to be taxed. You don't want to be taxed a lot, just live a modest lifestyle, and you can keep all of your money.

But, I am sure someone will disagree, and would think that's horribly unfair.


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Works for me. I'd much prefer a consumption tax to an income tax.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 10:13:19 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 10:13:27 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:


That really is a huge benefit of sales tax instead of income tax, in addition to other "fairness" considerations.
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By WeimaranerDad:
If the labor participation rate is just 63%, then there is 37% of the population not paying any FITW, Medicare or SS.

Get rid of the income tax entirely.

Then go to a larger federal sales tax. That would capture everybody, including all the illegals that are here working cash on the barrel head jobs.



That really is a huge benefit of sales tax instead of income tax, in addition to other "fairness" considerations.


In theory. In reality they would do all their shopping at "swap meets", and the local "Mercado" that doesn't accurately report sales tax, or pay it.
Link Posted: 4/22/2014 10:14:03 AM EDT
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