I did some searches didn't see anything related though I assume it has to have been discussed but maybe long ago there are new folks to chime in.

Anyhow, how important do you feel physical conditioning is to the whole tactical situation or self defense?

Here is why I ask. I was looking through some gun magazines and seems like many of the writers are pretty pudgy, the photos in most if not all of the classes had some massively overweight folks in them and there are some youtube videos out there where guys are wearing tactical gear and are unable to even buckle the fronts.

I am concerned that too many people think that having a gun is enough or something not sure what the deal is to be so full on high speed low drag acting except in the physical fitness area.  

I am not Jack Lalanne but I do run, work out on a heavy bag/kick bag, use my lil home gym with bow flex machine, free-weights and do some pilates. My wife is in phenomenal shape and we work out a little every day, my body is a bit broken up from line of duty injuries as a marine I have metal rods keeping lower back together, titanium plates keeping my neck together and bone grafts in both places as well as a left knee repair of ACL/MCL.

My wife stresses always healthy eating, her idea of a snack while we watch TV is cucumbers dipped in freshly squeezed lime juice (took awhile to get used to that). Hell I had a heart attack at 42yrs old in August (bad genes/hypertension)

Sometimes I think of a good excuse to blow it off It is REALLY hard for me to get myself in to our home gym every day but I do it. And am always stoked that I did at the end but still hard the next day. I am fundamentally very lazy Hell if someone just did 20 push ups every day for a week, walked for 20 minutes and increased both events a little every week and gave it a few weeks to develop the habit they'd be good to go.

Some of the guys at the local indoor range that are also CCW seem to think that is all they need is a gun. That there is no need to stay in a little shape.  

I want people to be safe, be able to protect themselves and be a total self defense package to the best of their ability. I like the guys and gals in the gun community I am not pushing for all of us to be super men but geeze Louise some folks are just massive.

So what is the consensus is having the gun and the gear enough? Or do folks agree self defense/tactical starts first with physical conditioning?

Do any of the "gun academies" stress physical fitness like going on a 3 mile run before the day's shooting starts?

I don't want to sound like a physical fitness Nazis I am not in perfect shape by a long shot but in good shape especially with an effed up body. I find working out decreases my pain, relieves stress, stops/reduces the blues.

Hey I know lets do an Afrcom biggest loser event Just kidding.

Should have done a thread about rick rolling you would have gotten more responses.




But yeah your right, I was one of those massive folks minus the tacticool gear, slowly turning it around now.

Pudgy is good.  All that fat is stored energy.  The skinny folks will starve to death and leave all their gear lying about for the (formerly) fatties to pick up as they'd like.  It will be utopia.

How important is having a penis in sex?

In before the "I carry so I don't have to run" quote.!!!

Quoted: Pudgy is good.  All that fat is stored energy.  The skinny folks will starve to death and leave all their gear lying about for the (formerly) fatties to pick up as they'd like.  It will be utopia.

Pudgy is different than massive land whale at least to me.

It seems to me that most of the "been there/done that" guys emphasize fitness more so that some of the others. For instance, Paul Howe has a run & gun course that requires a lot of exertion to complete (at his pace). He places a lot of emphasis on fitness.

Some of the other schools I have been to don't say much about it.

Quoted: Pudgy is good.  All that fat is stored energy.  The skinny folks will starve to death and leave all their gear lying about for the (formerly) fatties to pick up as they'd like.  It will be utopia.

I know your trying to be funny but losing weight without conditioning and stamina improvement will still just leave you a winded, worn out skinny.

Seriously, if the body is under stress,the better shape you're in the better it will cope.

Fat folks need lovin' too! Plus, in a SHTF I will last longer without food.

There was a poster on the wall in my police academy. It went into a lot of detail, but essentially it's this.

Most life or death fights hand-to-hand are over within a couple of minutes at most.

If you wish to survive you must do at least 4 hours of cardio a week for every minute you wish to stay alive.

Lifting weights  and walking around the front yard is not cardio.

Best way to look at it is by looking at it.

Everyone involved in HSLD op's are all in good shape and have standards to meet..if not they get the boot.

I look at the VT gunman day..when that picture of 4 fat guys dragging one skinny out and they looked like they were hurting, big time, fat guts hanging out, out of breath..etc..compare that to guys that have to pick up another man throw him on his shoulders and run for X amount of distance.

Fat=Dead in the tactical world or not.

for the average shooter...

a few extra pounds is  not a bad thing.  not more than 20 off your ideal weight.  you will shed it quick enough if you need to.  i am 6-1 and go about 250.  i realize that is about 50# more than what the chart says.  but at 220 i look underweight.  must be a "German" thing.  if i take a week long shooting class or go to the farm i don't tend to eat as well as i should and i drop quite a bit of weight.

i think it's better to stay hydrated and eat good food than worry about being at target weight.  

Quoted: for the average shooter... a few extra pounds is  not a bad thing.  not more than 20 off your ideal weight.  you will shed it quick enough if you need to.  i am 6-1 and go about 250.  i realize that is about 50# more than what the chart says. but at 220 i look underweight.  must be a "German" thing.  if i take a week long shooting class or go to the farm i don't tend to eat as well as i should and i drop quite a bit of weight. i think it's better to stay hydrated and eat good food than worry about being at target weight.

Yes it does boil down to "body type". Endomorph, Ectomorph and Mesomorph, or a persons genetic "mixing" of traits from a couple different types.

I am a Mesomorph with some Endomorph tendencies. I am large framed, gain muscle easily but also gain fat easily if Im not careful. that is Meso-Endo.

The old school height/weight charts and the newer BMI index is pure BS for someone like me.

The ORACLE has all the answers.   Ask him.

Quoted: There was a poster on the wall in my police academy. It went into a lot of detail, but essentially it's this. Most life or death fights hand-to-hand are over within a couple of minutes at most. If you wish to survive you must do at least 4 hours of cardio a week for every minute you wish to stay alive. Lifting weights  and walking around the front yard is not cardio.

That much!?!?!  Really????  

when your spare tire covers your spare mags and surefire like gravy its time to lose a little weight...

I've seen more than my share of tactical lard bodies...

Fat folks need lovin' too! Plus, in a SHTF I will last longer without food.

If you have a choice of meat, do you choose jerky, or a well marbled porterhouse.

Josephus wrote about the fat being tortured during a siege to give up the location of their food.


Seriously, it is absolutely vital.  I would rank it above absolute skill with firearms, personally.

Not everyone is preparing to go to the Q course.  But, the Heavy 6s and SGT Sugercookies are kidding themselves if they think that they are anything but a landwhale for sharks.

i r need 2 quat smokin  i r breathl3$$ apprenctice   i r not run far  i r need quit smoking

Quoted: Quoted: There was a poster on the wall in my police academy. It went into a lot of detail, but essentially it's this. Most life or death fights hand-to-hand are over within a couple of minutes at most. If you wish to survive you must do at least 4 hours of cardio a week for every minute you wish to stay alive. Lifting weights  and walking around the front yard is not cardio. That much!?!?!  Really????

Seriously.  Ground fighting is VERY intensive.

Quoted: .....Anyhow, how important do you feel physical conditioning is to the whole tactical situation or self defense?....

Hello Bad.....

Good thread

FWIW,

I believe that it is very important to be also knowledgeable in un-armed defense, improvised weapons use and of course firearms. And core fitness is crucial to survival and outcome.

I also am not a Fitness Nazi. BUT over the years I have learned that having a strong waist and lower back is the key to all power and movement, the stronger the better. A large waist will slow your overall reactive ness way down.

A simple daily 15-minute exercise routine geared to your core will additionally give great benefits to your entire body. Start with crunches or modified sit-ups, if you want to add upper body exercises then do dips and push-ups.

Also try to add walking or bike riding, drink plenty of water eliminate, diet sodas, and at the least significantly reduce your junk food intake.

Peace
Steel Talon

Quoted: Quoted: .....Anyhow, how important do you feel physical conditioning is to the whole tactical situation or self defense?.... Hello Bad..... Good thread FWIW, I believe that it is very important to be also knowledgeable in un-armed defense, improvised weapons use and of course firearms. I also am not a Fitness Nazi. BUT over the years I have learned that having a strong waist and lower back is the key to all power and movement, the stronger the better. A large waist will slow your overall reactive ness way down. A simple daily 15-minute exercise routine geared to your core will additionally give great benefits to your entire body. Start with crunches or modified sit-ups, if you want to add upper body exercises then do dips and push-ups. Also try to add walking or bike riding, drink plenty of water eliminate, diet sodas, and at the least significantly reduce your junk food intake. Peace Steel Talon

+1

Don't recall ever seeing "heavy" SEAL's or Army Rangers. The civvy world is soft... so are most of the people that live in it.

Quoted: Don't recall ever seeing "heavy" SEAL's or Army Rangers. The civvy world is soft... so are most of the people that live in it.

Yeah, but alot of us try very hard to stay in shape. Age is the biggest obstacle. Everything hurts much longer after a good workout!!!

for sum reason college, especially if u and the wife both r fulltime students with kids, packs on weight, like 5-10 lbs per year, its like there is little or no time for anything and when u do find time you wanna sit down and do nothing, maybe tv video games or reading.

Prob has to do with all the fast food and soda and no physical activity. plusyer metabolism seems to want to slow down after 22, but your eating habits dont change much except for more junk and less real food.

im 28, long legs wide shoulders, 6 even and weigh between 190 and 200 depending on the month, last month i weighed 201, this month 196, the month before 192....and ive changed nothing.

My biggest prob is lack of time and too much whiskey/cigarettes.

Quoted: for sum reason college, especially if u and the wife both r fulltime students with kids, packs on weight, like 5-10 lbs per year, its like there is little or no time for anything and when u do find time you wanna sit down and do nothing, maybe tv video games or reading. Prob has to do with all the fast food and soda and no physical activity. plusyer metabolism seems to want to slow down after 22, but your eating habits dont change much except for more junk and less real food. im 28, long legs wide shoulders, 6 even and weigh between 190 and 200 depending on the month, last month i weighed 201, this month 196, the month before 192....and ive changed nothing. My biggest prob is lack of time and too much whiskey/cigarettes.

But you can do some hellacious voice overs cantcha?

im purdy good at cap'n barbossa from pirates of the carribean

Quoted: It seems to me that most of the "been there/done that" guys emphasize fitness more so that some of the others. For instance, Paul Howe has a run & gun course that requires a lot of exertion to complete (at his pace). He places a lot of emphasis on fitness. Some of the other schools I have been to don't say much about it.

most of those schools would go out of business if they scared off the fatties

Fitness IS very important, but practically who wants to pay a couple grand for a gun course that runs the customers fat ass into the ground and then they can barely shoot at all since customer McFatty can't even hold up his 10 pound tactical rifle.

Besides PT you can do on your own.  Skills you learn in courses need to be taught in that environment.  Why waste time and money doing PT when people are there to learn gun skills?

Quoted: Quoted: Don't recall ever seeing "heavy" SEAL's or Army Rangers. The civvy world is soft... so are most of the people that live in it. Yeah, but alot of us try very hard to stay in shape. Age is the biggest obstacle. Everything hurts much longer after a good workout!!!

No doubt, early twenties is a lot easier than early forties for fitness. Everything hurts now, but I can't see ever just letting yourself go completely. People are lying to themselves if they think there is any substitute for conditioning in a tactical environment.

Quoted: for the average shooter... a few extra pounds is  not a bad thing.  not more than 20 off your ideal weight.  you will shed it quick enough if you need to.  i am 6-1 and go about 250.  i realize that is about 50# more than what the chart says.  but at 220 i look underweight.  must be a "German" thing.  if i take a week long shooting class or go to the farm i don't tend to eat as well as i should and i drop quite a bit of weight. i think it's better to stay hydrated and eat good food than worry about being at target weight.

+1, same here.  Was at 250, hitting the gym and I'm down to 240ish.  Still have pics from bootcamp when I was @209, I looked like a skeleton. Yay for German body types

Quoted: Quoted: Don't recall ever seeing "heavy" SEAL's or Army Rangers. The civvy world is soft... so are most of the people that live in it. Yeah, but alot of us try very hard to stay in shape. Age is the biggest obstacle. Everything hurts much longer after a good workout!!!

Heard That !!!


Tiger Balm and Ibuprophyn BooYah!!

Peace
Steel Talon

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Don't recall ever seeing "heavy" SEAL's or Army Rangers. The civvy world is soft... so are most of the people that live in it. Yeah, but alot of us try very hard to stay in shape. Age is the biggest obstacle. Everything hurts much longer after a good workout!!! No doubt, early twenties is a lot easier than early forties for fitness. Everything hurts now, but I can't see ever just letting yourself go completely. People are lying to themselves if they think there is any substitute for conditioning in a tactical environment.

Triple Strength Glucosamine/Chondroitin is your friend

Quoted: There was a poster on the wall in my police academy. It went into a lot of detail, but essentially it's this. Most life or death fights hand-to-hand are over within a couple of minutes at most. If you wish to survive you must do at least 4 hours of cardio a week for every minute you wish to stay alive. Lifting weights  and walking around the front yard is not cardio.

Yeah I totally agree. I am not sure you need to be a 90th degree Blackbelt in some crazy martial art but Krav Maga and some cardio and weight training I think is good for the soul. I just think the chances of something going really bad where you need to defend and respond 1 you want a fairly nice heart rate and 2 you will want to be able to have some intense activity, running, jumping, hiding, skipping, grappling, ducking for at least 5-10 minutes.

And I know when I was a young marine I on occasion got into a few brawls/smokers on ship/LINE Instructor course/just plain wrestlin out in the field if you have been in a fight against someone in good shape it can last for awhile and it will kick your ass.

Now who wants to throw on a jockstrap get oiled up and do some wrestling hahahahaha just kidding. sorta

Just my humble opinion but I believe fitness is the most important thing.  

You will be in a world of hurt if you're too tired and weak to fight and shoot straight if just the process of getting to the fight took everything out of you.

I'll use my BJJ training as an example.  Our class starts with about 30 minutes of PT.  Then it's about an hour of technical training and drills and then finally full force grappling for 30 minutes.  This is what I mean about "getting to the fight".

I've seen new guys get so smoked in that first 30 minutes that the rest of class is hell for them and many have to take puke breaks during the full force grappling.  Let me tell you it ain't easy.

Seriously everything in life is easier and more enjoyable if you are in shape.  You don't have to be in Navy SEAL shape but you need to be in good enough shape to get the job done and still have a bit extra in the gas tank...

Crossfit has a good chart on basic Athletic Skill Standards, see the link below.

crossfitatlanta.typepad.com/CrossFit_Athletic_Skill_Stand.pdf

It's not the be all and end all of athletic standard tests but it will give you a good idea of where you stand as far as overall fitness goes.

fitness and tactical training go hand in hand.

if you think you are a crack shot and can remain in an static position indefinatley, good luck to you. in real world situations speed is what wins.  if you can maneuver so you can both kill the enemy first and avoid getting hit yourself, then you win.  it doesnt matter how much your rifle costs or what kind of goggles you are wearing.

try running up a single flight of stairs wearing body armor, two weapons and a full load of ammo and water.  then factor in that you have several more buildings to clear.  if you are folded over panting when that one moment hits and you get contact, its not going to be a good day for you.

a lot of people think they can do what the military does, but they dont even realize the half of it.  you dont just drive somewhere, get out of the vehicle, and gun down the enemy at your leisure.

imagine rotating from missions to 6 hour guard shifts over and over for several days, catching naps in a crowded guntruck once in a while, beat from the constant 130 degree sun, dehydrated because all you have is boiling hot water from your trunk, and then catching contact at the tail end of an 8 hour silent OP.  how well do you think you will move at that point carrying 70-80lbs of armor and gear? how well do you think you will shoot with your entire face pouring with sweat and wearing a heavy helmet with a PVS-14 attached to it? how well do you think your mind will work with a radio blaring in your ear with 12 different urgent conversations at once, and tracers flying by your face out of shadows 500m away?  what if you have to carry a casualty to a vehicle who, like you, is wearing 40lbs of body armor?

training is everything, its always the singer not the song. physical conditioning is only a single aspect of it, but probably the most important.

Quoted: fitness and tactical training go hand in hand. if you think you are a crack shot and can remain in an static position indefinatley, good luck to you. in real world situations speed is what wins.  if you can maneuver so you can both kill the enemy first and avoid getting hit yourself, then you win.  it doesnt matter how much your rifle costs or what kind of goggles you are wearing. try running up a single flight of stairs wearing body armor, two weapons and a full load of ammo and water.  then factor in that you have several more buildings to clear.  if you are folded over panting when that one moment hits and you get contact, its not going to be a good day for you. a lot of people think they can do what the military does, but they dont even realize the half of it.  you dont just drive somewhere, get out of the vehicle, and gun down the enemy at your leisure. imagine rotating from missions to 6 hour guard shifts over and over for several days, catching naps in a crowded guntruck once in a while, beat from the constant 130 degree sun, dehydrated because all you have is boiling hot water from your trunk, and then catching contact at the tail end of an 8 hour silent OP.  how well do you think you will move at that point carrying 70-80lbs of armor and gear? how well do you think you will shoot with your entire face pouring with sweat and wearing a heavy helmet with a PVS-14 attached to it? how well do you think your mind will work with a radio blaring in your ear with 12 different urgent conversations at once, and tracers flying by your face out of shadows 500m away?  what if you have to carry a casualty to a vehicle who, like you, is wearing 40lbs of body armor? training is everything, its always the singer not the song. physical conditioning is only a single aspect of it, but probably the most important.

All of which are not applicable to most US shooters.  They are not part of a unit, doubtful they even have GMRS comms much less sets and the organizational structure for a 12 net radio system.  Generally they are not going to be pulling OP's silently, and mose don't even have night vision or helmets.  You'd be lucky to have them wearing plate carriers with rifle plates.

Different potential "working" worlds.

Id for one, would prefer to be surrounded by fat arfcommers in a zombie apocolypse.  All the gun fire will draw them to their position and then they would be able to eat for hours.  While I escape.

Quoted: i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd182/sullysauto/FAT.jpg

Dude, WTF?

On a serious note to the OP, try playing paintball for a day with a camelpak and extra paint in tubes.

You'll find out that being in shape is extremely important. Not to mention if you're going out with body armor/plates and a BOB.

Quoted: There was a poster on the wall in my police academy. It went into a lot of detail, but essentially it's this. Most life or death fights hand-to-hand are over within a couple of minutes at most. If you wish to survive you must do at least 4 hours of cardio a week for every minute you wish to stay alive. Lifting weights  and walking around the front yard is not cardio.

4 hours per minute??  That seems a bit much.  Not trying to argue, just saying.

IMO, www.crossfit.com is one of the best methods to stay in overall good shape.  They structure the workouts to touch on many different aspects of physical fitness.  Many people from many different combat disciplines (mil, LEO, MMA, etc.) use the methodologies taught in Cross Fit.  Best part is that it takes little time when done correctly.  The longest days I had were the 10k run days.  Those were few and far between.

Quoted: Quoted: fitness and tactical training go hand in hand. if you think you are a crack shot and can remain in an static position indefinatley, good luck to you. in real world situations speed is what wins.  if you can maneuver so you can both kill the enemy first and avoid getting hit yourself, then you win.  it doesnt matter how much your rifle costs or what kind of goggles you are wearing. try running up a single flight of stairs wearing body armor, two weapons and a full load of ammo and water.  then factor in that you have several more buildings to clear.  if you are folded over panting when that one moment hits and you get contact, its not going to be a good day for you. a lot of people think they can do what the military does, but they dont even realize the half of it.  you dont just drive somewhere, get out of the vehicle, and gun down the enemy at your leisure. imagine rotating from missions to 6 hour guard shifts over and over for several days, catching naps in a crowded guntruck once in a while, beat from the constant 130 degree sun, dehydrated because all you have is boiling hot water from your trunk, and then catching contact at the tail end of an 8 hour silent OP.  how well do you think you will move at that point carrying 70-80lbs of armor and gear? how well do you think you will shoot with your entire face pouring with sweat and wearing a heavy helmet with a PVS-14 attached to it? how well do you think your mind will work with a radio blaring in your ear with 12 different urgent conversations at once, and tracers flying by your face out of shadows 500m away?  what if you have to carry a casualty to a vehicle who, like you, is wearing 40lbs of body armor? training is everything, its always the singer not the song. physical conditioning is only a single aspect of it, but probably the most important. All of which are not applicable to most US shooters.  They are not part of a unit, doubtful they even have GMRS comms much less sets and the organizational structure for a 12 net radio system.  Generally they are not going to be pulling OP's silently, and mose don't even have night vision or helmets.  You'd be lucky to have them wearing plate carriers with rifle plates. Different potential "working" worlds.

understood, thats why i emphasized that the focus of my post was the military aspect of the "tactical" world. im just trying to show that things are a lot different in real life than they are in your head. parts of it can be applied to the "shtf" fantasy shared by most here.

realistically, what would happen?  you hear a window break downstairs, you run to the closet to get your pistol, run downstairs to start poking around in the dark and find out whats going on.  if you are already panting heavily you have given an edge to your adversary.  also, being physically fit makes you more adept at maneuvering, especially on the fly if shots come out of the shadows. you can stand there and take the second shot he fires if the first one somehow missed you, or you can move, preferrably fast. physical conditioning assists your reflexes as well.

not to mention that if somehow you took a bullet, you would have much better odds of surviving it if you are in good shape. muscle takes hits better than fat, and if your heart and lungs are in good condition they are more inclined to keep working after trauma.

last but not least, if you want to get into the average joes tactical situation, it will most likely occur at close proximity. this means that a gunfight may not happen even if you both have guns,  and you will end up locked in a physical struggle to determine who is going home in a bag and who is not.

A gun is a great equalizer.

How else could a 98 year old partially paralyzed woman stand a chance against a Muy Thai kickboxer?   Give her a MAC-10 and it's anyone's guess as to who lives or dies.

Physical conditioning is only as important as the tasks you plan on performing in life.

I dont plan on running 500 miles or climbing Everest but I do plan on shooting someone in the face if they try to hurt me.

Quoted: i r need 2 quat smokin  i r breathl3$$ apprenctice   i r not run far  i r need quit smoking

Not true, I have a guy at work who smokes 2 packs a day and runs a 12 minute 2 mile, fucking retard endurance if I ever saw it.

yes if you research bruce lee he got his ass royally handed to him in a few bouts of full contact and bruce lee to his honor made it very clear just becase your damned good doesnt mean you should be a slacker on stamina ====run your ass off and do all the basics regularly!!

After all the reeducation on stamina he was never defeated by anyone!!!

Wrestle 3 2 minute rounds with someone similar to your size, then report back your findings.

Quoted: Here is why I ask. I was looking through some gun magazines and seems like many of the writers are pretty pudgy, the photos in most if not all of the classes had some massively overweight folks in them and there are some youtube videos out there where guys are wearing tactical gear and are unable to even buckle the fronts.