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Posted: 7/20/2008 1:51:22 AM EDT
How do you decide what is right and what is wrong?(and what is in the "gray area")

Do you decide for yourself, or do you delegate that decision making power?

My philosophy has always been "Do no harm, unless needed"
(yeah, I'm the one deciding, and I'm responsible for my actions)

Lots of people CLAIM to lead "moral lives"

I've seen behind that "curtain"
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 1:53:31 AM EDT
Live and let live......

As long as you are not causing physical harm to someone , who the hell am I to tell you how to live your life?
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 1:56:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sprayandpray:
Live and let live......

As long as you are not causing physical harm to someone , who the hell am I to tell you how to live your life?


Well.....there's also mental harm and harm by omission, lots of gray
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 1:56:47 AM EDT
Preachy bullshit. I scoff at your moral code.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 1:58:31 AM EDT
Let me help you.

It's WRONG to be condemning people for their hypocrisies.

You ain't god, you're just another hypocrite.

Link Posted: 7/20/2008 1:58:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tim_the_enchanter:
Preachy bullshit. I scoff at your moral code.


EXACTLY
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 1:59:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pdg45acp:
Let me help you.

It's WRONG to be condemning people for their hypocrisies.

You ain't god, you're just another hypocrite.


Impressive "catch 22"
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 2:05:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pdg45acp:
Let me help you.

It's WRONG to be condemning people for their hypocrisies.

You ain't god, you're just another hypocrite.



Yet, you could point out the hypocrisy without actually condemning it...
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 2:06:39 AM EDT
Oh yeah, is perverted sex between consenting married adults "moral"?
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 2:07:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tim_the_enchanter:
Preachy bullshit. I scoff at your moral code.



Who me?
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 2:07:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 2:07:49 AM EDT by sprayandpray]

Originally Posted By 22bad:
Oh yeah, is perverted sex between consenting married adults "moral"?



Yes


(poll anyone?)
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 2:10:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sprayandpray:
(poll anyone?)


Not a fan of polls......too anonymous

Go ahead and state your preferred poll questions
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 2:12:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 22bad:
Oh yeah, is perverted sex between consenting married adults "moral"?



Poll question, You already asked it........ Let's see what Dave A's Majority test will net us......
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 2:12:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 22bad:
Oh yeah, is perverted sex between consenting married adults "moral"?


Your original premise question is flawed in that it begs the question of assuming BDSM is perverted. Several of us have already rejected that notion in your original thread.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 2:20:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 2:21:37 AM EDT by 22bad]

Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:

Originally Posted By 22bad:
Oh yeah, is perverted sex between consenting married adults "moral"?


Your original premise question is flawed in that it begs the question of assuming BDSM is perverted. Several of us have already rejected that notion in your original thread.


It was INTENDED as a "flawed" question
(should be a comma between consenting, married)
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 2:23:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sprayandpray:

Originally Posted By 22bad:
Oh yeah, is perverted sex between consenting married adults "moral"?



Poll question, You already asked it........ Let's see what Dave A's Majority test will net us......


Actually, I'm more interested in what the rest of the site says
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 2:29:07 AM EDT


my internal moral compass usually guides me
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 2:40:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By luger355:


my internal moral compass usually guides me


Cool.....where did you get it calibrated?
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 2:53:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 22bad:
[Cool.....where did you get it calibrated?

Life experience. Knowing what its like to be done wrong, knowing that you treat people the way you want to be treated, etc.
You don't need some mythological super-being to threaten you with a burning lake of fire to be able to figure out the stuff I just mentioned.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 2:57:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By 22bad:
[Cool.....where did you get it calibrated?

Life experience. Knowing what its like to be done wrong, knowing that you treat people the way you want to be treated, etc.
You don't need some mythological super-being to threaten you with a burning lake of fire to be able to figure out the stuff I just mentioned.


Some people do, I've repeatedly heard(over the years)

"If I didn't believe in hell I'd kill several people I know"
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 3:02:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 22bad:

Originally Posted By luger355:
discclonersplus.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/04/moral_compass_lg_clr.gif

my internal moral compass usually guides me


Cool.....where did you get it calibrated?


the FSM guides me in all things
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 4:14:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 22bad:

Some people do, I've repeatedly heard(over the years)

"If I didn't believe in hell I'd kill several people I know"

Weak people, if all that keeps them in line is an imaginary supreme being.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 4:28:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 4:31:28 AM EDT by goodoleboy]
I decide for myself whats right and wrong, but I also have been influenced on what to think..We all have gotten some influence and direction (Ten Commandments for example is the most popular), but some can later grow wings and decide for themselves later on in life..
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 4:42:59 AM EDT
I keep my own counsel and people that really know me, know what a giving individual I am. Cross the line and mistake my kindness for weaknes, you get to see the other side and it ain't pretty.

Most things are black and white with me, with few gray areas.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 9:08:40 AM EDT
There are no shades of gray.

There is right, wrong, and things I don't give a damn about.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 9:10:28 AM EDT
Golden Rule
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 9:12:36 AM EDT
Reason, mostly.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 11:44:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:

Originally Posted By 22bad:

Some people do, I've repeatedly heard(over the years)

"If I didn't believe in hell I'd kill several people I know"

Weak people, if all that keeps them in line is an imaginary supreme being.


I believe that is a fairly common "mindset"
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 12:13:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 12:18:48 PM EDT by Dave_A]
God dictates the 'baseline' of right and wrong...

From there, the guiding principle is 'If it is wrong, it is ALWAYS wrong'....

So, for example, if murder is wrong, it is ALWAYS wrong, no matter what the victim did to you or your family...

If it is wrong to purposefully inflict pain on another for the purpose of your own enjoymnet, it is ALWAYS wrong - weather you are beating up a bum on the streets for kicks, or whipping your wife with a belt as part of some perverse sex-game....

And so on...

Changing the circumstances does not change the morality of an action, thus 'derived' immorality is often founded on 'issues' unrelated to the purpose of the act (See BDSM thread - the judgement of 'perverse' was based on the non-sexual portion of such activities (immoral/deviant behavior) being combined with sex (no judgement passed on the sex itself)... But the sex is what everyone focused on when critiquing my response....

The central tenet to the above, is that we are all a very short 'tick' away from being completely immoral creatures, and the only way to preserve morality is to observe it as absolutely as you can...

Each lapse pushes you one step closer to the abyss (and I don't mean Hell - I mean 'to yielding completely to your nature' - eg to chaos)...
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 12:21:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
God dictates the 'baseline' of right and wrong...

From there, the guiding principle is 'If it is wrong, it is ALWAYS wrong'....

So, for example, if murder is wrong, it is ALWAYS wrong, no matter what the victim did to you or your family...

If it is wrong to purposefully inflict pain on another for the purpose of your own enjoymnet, it is ALWAYS wrong - weather you are beating up a bum on the streets for kicks, or whipping your wife with a belt as part of some perverse sex-game....

And so on...

Changing the circumstances does not change the morality of an action, thus 'derived' immorality is often founded on 'issues' unrelated to the purpose of the act (See BDSM thread - the judgement of 'perverse' was based on the non-sexual portion of such activities (immoral/deviant behavior) being combined with sex (no judgement passed on the sex itself)... But the sex is what everyone focused on when critiquing my response....



Just as you fail to understand the difference between "weather" and "whether", you also fail to comprehend the difference between mutual consent and non-consensual scenarios, as your examples clearly indicate.

If God is the baseline, then he is guilty of breaking his own laws, as he took pleasure in the suffering of those who did not follow him. As his son later instructed: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 12:28:15 PM EDT
There is right and there is wrong. There are no gray areas.

We do right because...
...we fear the judgement of others.
...we fear the judgements of ourselves.
...we fear the judgement that we believe awaits us in whatever comes next.
...we fear the judgement that comes in this life.


We do wrong because...
...it feels good.
...it is fun.
...we don't are about the jugdement of others.
...it benefits us.
...we feel the wrong is justified.

(I'm sure there are more refined specific reasons for doing each, but that is the broad strokes.)
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 12:41:51 PM EDT
Hit someone in anger= wrong
Hit someone in defense=OK. Even if I enjoy it.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 12:56:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By URL:
There is right and there is wrong. There are no gray areas.

We do right because...
...we fear the judgement of others.
...we fear the judgements of ourselves.
...we fear the judgement that we believe awaits us in whatever comes next.
...we fear the judgement that comes in this life.


We do wrong because...
...it feels good.
...it is fun.
...we don't are about the jugdement of others.
...it benefits us.
...we feel the wrong is justified.

(I'm sure there are more refined specific reasons for doing each, but that is the broad strokes.)


You are giving reasons why one does what they perceive to be right and wrong, but you haven't answered the question. Namely, how do you arrive at the determination of which is which?
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 4:17:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2008 4:22:37 PM EDT by Dave_A]

Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
God dictates the 'baseline' of right and wrong...

From there, the guiding principle is 'If it is wrong, it is ALWAYS wrong'....

So, for example, if murder is wrong, it is ALWAYS wrong, no matter what the victim did to you or your family...

If it is wrong to purposefully inflict pain on another for the purpose of your own enjoymnet, it is ALWAYS wrong - weather you are beating up a bum on the streets for kicks, or whipping your wife with a belt as part of some perverse sex-game....

And so on...

Changing the circumstances does not change the morality of an action, thus 'derived' immorality is often founded on 'issues' unrelated to the purpose of the act (See BDSM thread - the judgement of 'perverse' was based on the non-sexual portion of such activities (immoral/deviant behavior) being combined with sex (no judgement passed on the sex itself)... But the sex is what everyone focused on when critiquing my response....



Just as you fail to understand the difference between "weather" and "whether", you also fail to comprehend the difference between mutual consent and non-consensual scenarios, as your examples clearly indicate.

If God is the baseline, then he is guilty of breaking his own laws, as he took pleasure in the suffering of those who did not follow him. As his son later instructed: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.


Your view of God is slightly different than mine, I'd say...

Reading through the Bible, I allways had a distinct impression that God never took pleasure in the suffering of those who did not follow him, but rather treated it as an unfortunate necessity...

Hence the repeated warnings, the prophets, supernatural signs... All sending a message of 'Don't MAKE ME do this to you'... Well, that and the whole sacrifice of Jesus to save humanity from said suffering...

A God that took pleasure in the suffering of evil humanity would have given us an entirely different world... A world far more like what the old Greeks envisioned, where sadistic deities played with humans like toys...

P.S. As for the 'mutual consent' angle, that goes into another issue of morality...

If it is accepted (As I do) that masochistic tenancies are indicative of mental health issues/instability, then taking advantage of someone with said tenancies to satisfy your own sadisim is not on the same level as 'mutual consent'...

2 people engaging in a combative sport is 'mutual consent' (of course, in that scenario, the 'objective' is to enhance your fighting skills, not to 'enjoy inflicting pain')...

A person asking to be beaten up because 'he likes it' (for the sake of this example, we are not talking about a sexual encounter of any kind - just some guy asking you to beat him up & promising not to resist).... Has issues and his 'consent' is questionable...

Link Posted: 7/20/2008 4:19:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:

Originally Posted By URL:
There is right and there is wrong. There are no gray areas.

We do right because...
...we fear the judgement of others.
...we fear the judgements of ourselves.
...we fear the judgement that we believe awaits us in whatever comes next.
...we fear the judgement that comes in this life.


We do wrong because...
...it feels good.
...it is fun.
...we don't are about the jugdement of others.
...it benefits us.
...we feel the wrong is justified.

(I'm sure there are more refined specific reasons for doing each, but that is the broad strokes.)


You are giving reasons why one does what they perceive to be right and wrong, but you haven't answered the question. Namely, how do you arrive at the determination of which is which?


Dave , I believe this was directed at you......
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 4:23:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sprayandpray:

Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:

Originally Posted By URL:
There is right and there is wrong. There are no gray areas.

We do right because...
...we fear the judgement of others.
...we fear the judgements of ourselves.
...we fear the judgement that we believe awaits us in whatever comes next.
...we fear the judgement that comes in this life.


We do wrong because...
...it feels good.
...it is fun.
...we don't are about the jugdement of others.
...it benefits us.
...we feel the wrong is justified.

(I'm sure there are more refined specific reasons for doing each, but that is the broad strokes.)


You are giving reasons why one does what they perceive to be right and wrong, but you haven't answered the question. Namely, how do you arrive at the determination of which is which?


Dave , I believe this was directed at you......


No, that was directed at URL...

I've pretty much answered the above statement (eg 'God Says...', and then apply those decrees across life...)...
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 4:26:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
You don't need some mythological super-being to threaten you with a burning lake of fire to be able to figure out the stuff I just mentioned.


Your understanding of religeon is as broken as your 'moral compass'...

P.S. As for your other post... Those 'weak people' you talk about, will hold onto their morality longer than you will, come various challenges... As yours is backed by thin air.... They (we), however, have someone to answer to for the life we live...


Link Posted: 7/20/2008 4:38:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By Molon-Labe:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
God dictates the 'baseline' of right and wrong...

From there, the guiding principle is 'If it is wrong, it is ALWAYS wrong'....

So, for example, if murder is wrong, it is ALWAYS wrong, no matter what the victim did to you or your family...

If it is wrong to purposefully inflict pain on another for the purpose of your own enjoymnet, it is ALWAYS wrong - weather you are beating up a bum on the streets for kicks, or whipping your wife with a belt as part of some perverse sex-game....

And so on...

Changing the circumstances does not change the morality of an action, thus 'derived' immorality is often founded on 'issues' unrelated to the purpose of the act (See BDSM thread - the judgement of 'perverse' was based on the non-sexual portion of such activities (immoral/deviant behavior) being combined with sex (no judgement passed on the sex itself)... But the sex is what everyone focused on when critiquing my response....



Just as you fail to understand the difference between "weather" and "whether", you also fail to comprehend the difference between mutual consent and non-consensual scenarios, as your examples clearly indicate.

If God is the baseline, then he is guilty of breaking his own laws, as he took pleasure in the suffering of those who did not follow him. As his son later instructed: Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.


Your view of God is slightly different than mine, I'd say...

Reading through the Bible, I allways had a distinct impression that God never took pleasure in the suffering of those who did not follow him, but rather treated it as an unfortunate necessity...

Hence the repeated warnings, the prophets, supernatural signs... All sending a message of 'Don't MAKE ME do this to you'... Well, that and the whole sacrifice of Jesus to save humanity from said suffering...

A God that took pleasure in the suffering of evil humanity would have given us an entirely different world... A world far more like what the old Greeks envisioned, where sadistic deities played with humans like toys...

P.S. As for the 'mutual consent' angle, that goes into another issue of morality...

If it is accepted (As I do) that masochistic tenancies are indicative of mental health issues/instability, then taking advantage of someone with said tenancies to satisfy your own sadisim is not on the same level as 'mutual consent'...

2 people engaging in a combative sport is 'mutual consent' (of course, in that scenario, the 'objective' is to enhance your fighting skills, not to 'enjoy inflicting pain')...

A person asking to be beaten up because 'he likes it' (for the sake of this example, we are not talking about a sexual encounter of any kind - just some guy asking you to beat him up & promising not to resist).... Has issues and his 'consent' is questionable...



Ah, but if there were Greek deities that already existed prior to Christianity, then to break away and follow the teachings of a new God was not only heretical, but according to your definition, perverted and deviant.

You said earlier that (and I quote): "...the guiding principle is 'If it is wrong, it is ALWAYS wrong'....

So, for example, if murder is wrong, it is ALWAYS wrong, no matter what the victim did to you or your family...

Changing the circumstances does not change the morality of an action..."

So if murder is wrong, and it is always wrong, no matter what the victim did to you or your family (or in a larger sense, your country), then you should be against the wars, as murder is still wrong. But you aren't, so you yourself hold morally ambiguous positions.

Now, in respect to the masochistic tendencies portion of your response, I always see catchphrases, usually corresponding to sports, but sometimes military service too, that say essentially the same thing: Embrace the pain. Are you saying they are all mentally ill? What about the DIs who seem to take inordinant amounts of pleasure in the physical suffering of their charges? Are you saying they are mentally ill? What about the Buddhist that sleeps on a bed of nails, or walks on hot coals in order to transcend the pain? Mentally ill by your account? Since you don't seem to get this, unsurprisingly, people don't engage in BDSM with pain as the end result. Pain is the medium by which they achieve the end result...just like the other cases I've given.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 4:43:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
You don't need some mythological super-being to threaten you with a burning lake of fire to be able to figure out the stuff I just mentioned.


Your understanding of religeon is as broken as your 'moral compass'...

P.S. As for your other post... Those 'weak people' you talk about, will hold onto their morality longer than you will, come various challenges... As yours is backed by thin air.... They (we), however, have someone to answer to for the life we live...




Unless of course, those people to whom they've abdicated their right and responsibility of self determination dictate that they need to reconsider their morality to fit the new definition conjured out of thin air. Unless you insist that church dogma never changes. You aren't foolish enough to do that, though, are you?
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 4:47:52 PM EDT
My apologies. I obviously didn't understand the question. I thought we were talking about what we consider gray areas.

If we are talking about what is right and wrong then there are only personal answers to that question.

As a religious person my basis for right and wrong comes from my faith and upbrining. Persons with different beliefs and upbringings have entirely different ideas of right and wrong.

I've met one individual that simply believes in nothing. There is simply what you do and what you don't do. He understands that their are "laws of man", but doesn't believe anything to be inherently right or wrong. I don't agree with him in the least but it is his life experience and belief.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 4:54:05 PM EDT
I kill a Rooster, take the wish bone, dry it , and break it. If I get the long side I act. There is simply no better way to determine right and wrong.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 5:02:24 PM EDT
By the time you have reached the "age of reason" you know in many instances what is "right" and what is "wrong".

If you're not sure (your "gray zone") there are two things you can do. One is to follow the Libertarian principle - as long as what you (or someone else) is causing no harm to any one's life, liberty and pursuit of happiness (including owning and protection of property) then it is likely to be okay.

If you're still having problems you can always pray for guidance. Prayer works
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 5:05:03 PM EDT
Desire/punishment

If the numerator is greater than the denominator, then it is a green light.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:11:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
You don't need some mythological super-being to threaten you with a burning lake of fire to be able to figure out the stuff I just mentioned.


Your understanding of religeon is as broken as your 'moral compass'...

P.S. As for your other post... Those 'weak people' you talk about, will hold onto their morality longer than you will, come various challenges... As yours is backed by thin air.... They (we), however, have someone to answer to for the life we live...




My understanding of religion is just fine. I know the type of person quite well.
Oh come on, there are so many 'religious" people whose morality is just a public image, a sham, so don't even go there. Please. I know the type, as I said.
Link Posted: 7/20/2008 7:16:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 22bad:
Oh yeah, is perverted sex between consenting married adults "moral"?


It's only perverted if you are doing it right.
Link Posted: 8/1/2008 5:44:38 PM EDT
If I must err ("to err is human"), I try to err on the side of more personal freedom, and less telling other people what to do ("do unto others as you would have them do unto you").

I don't like being told what to do, especially when I ain't hurtin' no one, yo.

Oh, and don't forget the Golden Rule (of America, not of Christianity):

MYOFB!
Link Posted: 8/1/2008 5:46:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 22bad:
Oh yeah, is perverted sex between consenting married adults "moral"?

That depends. Do you consider Aquinas an authority on morality?
Link Posted: 8/1/2008 5:58:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By threefeathers:
I kill a Rooster, take the wish bone, dry it , and break it. If I get the long side I act. There is simply no better way to determine right and wrong.

Man, I've been on the losing end of one of those before......
Link Posted: 8/1/2008 6:02:26 PM EDT
Generally, I base decisions of right and wrong in the context of either "Do no harm" or "in the interest if the Greater Good". However, instinct and the desire for survival tend to shrink one's concern for the well-being of others when one's personal self is at risk
Link Posted: 8/1/2008 6:05:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/1/2008 6:08:04 PM EDT by Tromatic]
Will I either be embarrassed or kick myself in the ass upon reflection. YOUR feelings mean nothing. If I were ever to stand before a judge and justify my actions, could I do so without regret. Truth, unless it's for blood and maybe two friends.
Link Posted: 8/1/2008 6:11:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wise_jake:

Originally Posted By 22bad:
Oh yeah, is perverted sex between consenting married adults "moral"?

That depends. Do you consider Aquinas an authority on morality?


No, but I'd love to see him levitate
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