I just graduated with a BA in political science and am considering a profession in medicine. The problem is though, I have absolutly no background in science due to an undergraduate career focused on government, history, and philosophy. Do any of you guys know what requirements I would need to fulfill before applying to med school, and if there are programs designed for people to "catch up"? Thanks for the advice.

holiday inn

Discover your black or hispanic race (for the extra points), bone up on basic chemistry and bio, take some classes in both and score As, and take an MCAT prep course.

The pre-req's are pretty set in stone I believe.

8 hours inorganic chemistry
8 hours organic chemistry
8 hours physics
8 hours of specific biological sciences

I'm sure they vary from med school to med school but these were the minimums when I was in college.

Also Medical College Admissions Test (MCAT) is needed.

Experience in the medical field is also very helpful even if it's just volunteer work.

Get those and I believe you have the basic requirements.

Look into the physicians assistant field.   You will need fewer pre-reqs, the program will be 2-2.5 years long and you can make six figures if you specialize.  The bascially practice medicine under the supervision of a physician.   Nurse Practitioners do the same with even less supervision.  My aunt makes 80 dollars an hour as a NP.

www.bls.gov/oco/ocos081.htm

www.bls.gov/oco/ocos083.htm

high GPA, volunteer work/leadership role, high MCAT score, physics, bio, chemistry, interviewing skills, luck....

The best advice, steer clear of med school.  Todays climate is not one for a good career in medicine.

Otherwise, look at this.  www.aamc.org/students/applying/about/start.htm

Look into everything, most people don't.  Keep in mind the amount of people who apply is ridiculous and an obsitcle in itself.  Figure maybe 1000 people apply for a handful of seats.

Quoted: The best advice, steer clear of med school.  Todays climate is not one for a good career in medicine.

Just curious what your rationale or your background is on this? Im in nursing school and everyone and their brother has offered me a job when I graduate. Not the same as a Doc, but why would the climate not be good for medicine?

Quoted: Quoted: The best advice, steer clear of med school.  Todays climate is not one for a good career in medicine. Just curious what your rationale or your background is on this? Im in nursing school and everyone and their brother has offered me a job when I graduate. Not the same as a Doc, but why would the climate not be good for medicine?

I can see the point when applied to physicians due to malpractice insurance but most medical professions are going to be solid gold as far as job security and income.  

Try one of those Caribean medical schools.  A friend of mine that couldn't get into law school and dropped out of chiropractic school is now an MD thanks to island medical school.

I'll tell you my experiences as a Med-School applicant who didn't make the cut.  I applied 3 times, of the first two being in undergrad where my BA was in Chemistry, and once when I was finishing up my Masters in Public Health.  My MCAT scores just weren't good enough (although if I was a "minority", it would have been fine...I'm Asian, what the med schools consider an "over-represented minority").  

What you need are those pre-reqs as set by the AAMC and most of the schools, which is something like 8 hours of Chem, 8 of Bio, English, Math, and 8 hours of other science or similar.  You also have to take the MCAT, which is an 8 hour long torture examination designed to systematically make your brain into mush and tear your hair out of your head test your "knowledge".  Most people who take the MCAT take some sort of prep course such as Kaplan or Princeton Review, both of which are also not fun to take; they are usually 16 hours per week, with full length practice tests 4-5 times and a lot of homework and costs around $1500-$2000.  If you make it through all that, then you apply, along with approximately 2500 other people per school jockeying for those 100-120 slots.  Basically, only one in 10 or so make it in (or among your 15 or so classmates in the prep course, only one or two will get in).  The applications are typically 6-12 page affairs, with the dreaded "personal statement" telling them why you should be selected, avoiding common cliches and syrupy sentiments, to join their MD program over those other 9 dum dums vieing for the same spot.  If you make it through all that, interviews and school visits round out the process.  

What Misery said about MDs being not as good a profession as before has truth in it.  My focus in the MPH program was Health Policy and Management, most of which deals with healthcare allocation and delivery.  The most pressing issue is the tri-fecta of 1.) third party payers (insurance, Medicare, etc), 2.) government policies and 3.) malpractice, all of which combine making it less and less attractive, both financially and job-security wise.  This emerging prominance of health insurance being pushed as something everyone has to have is driving this trend.  Health insurance, at its core, is supposed to make healthcare affordable, but in practice is beneficial to neither the patient nor the provider.  The provider is reined in in what he or she can and cannot do and just how much they can make.  This means that doctors do not enjoy the level of autonomy they were traditionally afforded and their compensations likewise decrease.  The reasons this hits MDs harder than RNs is because in our healthcare system, the RNs are the bulk of the "hands-on" providers whereas the MDs provide the medical direction and oversight aspect of the provider.  While the knowledge and experience of the MDs are invaluable, it presents a easy target for healthcare organizations to cut since it won't actually decrease the amount of "hands-on" healthcare; basically you have fewer MDs providing direction and oversight to more RNs.  

A lot of schools want you to have a year english and a year of calculus as well. You probably will have to go back to school to get any consideration at all. One idea might be to work as an EMT for a while, gain some real world experiance, see if you're still intersted, and build your resume.

Quoted: A lot of schools want you to have a year english and a year of calculus as well. You probably will have to go back to school to get any consideration at all. One idea might be to work as an EMT for a while, gain some real world experiance, see if you're still intersted, and build your resume.

I am actually considering becoming an EMT in the interm. I have a lot of down time as I am taking a year *off* to figure out what the heck I want to do in life. More school is unquestionbly in the future, though whether it be an MBA, JD, or MD I have no idea. There is personal draw to the MD, though it will present tremendous obstacles considering that I am so ill prepared for that course if I choose it.

Quoted: Quoted: The best advice, steer clear of med school.  Todays climate is not one for a good career in medicine. Just curious what your rationale or your background is on this? Im in nursing school and everyone and their brother has offered me a job when I graduate. Not the same as a Doc, but why would the climate not be good for medicine?

Let's just say the majority of surgeons I knew said they wouldn't do it over again and told me not to waste my time going through all the BS with how medicine is these days.  I'm sure most people are jaded in what job they do regardless of how much it can pay or what not, but I've known two surgeons who left medicine real early to get out of it all together.  The older guys always said "It' just not fun to be a doctor anymore".  This isn't the 70s and 80s were you make good money as a physician.  Very few specialties will get you the fortune people think doctors make.  It's actually a very rough haul and most people don't have a clue what it's like until they go through the process.  What Ghost-Shooter says about getting in is really in a good light.

Don't mind my cynical view though, if you are fine with making no money, not sleeping, and can memorize and understand complex scientific data in massive amounts, then you might fair okay in the med school and residency environment.  Just dont assume you'll make a lot of money after you are done with it and you really want to help sick people regardless of the sacrifce, because that's what it's all about today, nothing else.

Being a doc isn't what it once was but you will have a job. No problem there.

Take the basic science and prepare for the MCAT. I was out of college for 4 years when I took the MCAT and would get up at 5AM to study and sometimes at night after everyone went to bed. No Kaplan Course. Checked around and found some sample tests(those are a must).  I did just fine.

Application process is rigorous for sure and most don't make it. Odds are though that if you are qualified to get in to Med School you will make it through. They screen out everyone else. Only ones that got booted from our school had "issues" and in all honesty wouldn't have gotten in if they weren't women or minorities.

Once in it would be good to have some basics to hang info onto. You will go through 4times as much material as you do in college. Every month we took a battery of tests similar to taking a semesters worth of college finals in one morning.
To know something of the following would sure help:

Anatomy and Physiology
Cell Bio
Biochem and Molecular Bio
some Pharmacology, at least soem basics.
Microbiology

You can learn it as you go but it will be harder for sure.

I hope you like taking tests. You'll be taking some that are several days long.

Good luck and study hard.

Take a look at the Medical School Admissions Requirements

Book

This will let you know what the admissions requirements are for all the medical schools in the country.  Basically, you'll need a year of inorganic chemistry, a year of organic chemistry, a year of physics, a year of biology, a year of english, and a semester to a year of math.  These may vary a bit depending on the school.  You'll need to take the MCAT, ideally in April, and start applying in June the year before you start classes.  Doing well on the MCAT is critical.  I went to med school with several people who weren't science majors, and they did just fine.  The web page Misery mentioned is also a good place to start.  When I was applying, there were about 43000 applicants for 16000 spots.  In your interviews, the med schools will want to know why you want to be a physician, so you'll need a good answer.

There are some post-baccalaureate programs to get you the prerequisites, but I don't know anything about them.  You should be able to search the internet and find out about them.

Your state medical school will likely be the best shot for admission, though I got rejected from mine and went on to do a combined MD-PhD at a top 5 school.  The best schools will give you the best shot at getting the residency you want.  Avoid foreign medical schools (except Canada) if possible.

If I were doing it all over, I'd seriously consider becoming an orthodontist.  Easier path, better lifestyle, and great $.

Good luck.

I graduated from Podiatry School in 2003 with (by the time the student loans are totaled with interest) $200k in debt.

I did a one year residency (Primary Podiatric Medicine Residency), and started a Surgical residency here in PA--my residency got dropped (for basically screwed up reasons/politics in the Council for Podiatric Medical Education).   Hoping to start another Surgical Residency in July or Sept. if it works out.  

I took the MCAT in 1994 and got a 31, a reasonable score.  Unfortunately, my undergrad grades sucked   (working while going to school will do that to you).  I had a member of the admissions committee (through his secretary, who was the sister of a family friend) check my application--his advice was to quit work, get a Masters of Sci. then reapply, or apply as a minority.  No way was I going to get in with my undergrad grades as they stood.

Thought about it for a few years, and decided against quitting work to go to school for 2 years, and then start medical school for 4 more years (having a couple of kids puts a damper on some plans that involve having no income for several years).  

My wife happened to have a client that was a Podiatrist's wife, and mentioned that I was thinking about going back to school.  I met with him, had my application in the mail within a week.  Got an interview.  Did well--was told my MCATs were a bit too old, so I would need to re-take, but all I needed (because my other qualifications were pretty good, and I had a good work history) was to score a 17.  I re-took it in 1999 and scored a 30.

Didn't take a prep class for the MCAT, but I generally do well on standardized tests.

I like what I do, and once this residency crap is sorted out, I should make a fair living.  One Dr. I worked for nets over $700k from her solo pratice (she works a bunch of hours and markets like crazy).  Most make (after a couple of years out) from $100 to $200K, depending on work hours, location, etc.  

Now, that is after 4 years of college, 4 years of Pod. School, and 2 or 3 years of residency (my residency last year paid $24k in the middle of Chicago for 65-75 hour average work weeks, and this year it was $30k for about 50 hr weeks).

I actually considered the Physician Assistant approach--the work is similar and you can specialize (I have worked a bit with a PA that was the Heme/Onc. Dr's right hand for stem cell transplants) .  What turned me off was that my "Basic Sciences" were too old, so I would have to re-take Chem, Bio, etc.  This was after graduating with a double major in Bio and Psych (about 8 years before), and having taken graduate level classes in both over the last couple of years (my work at the time paid for up to 6 credits/semester, and I tried to take at least 3 credits).     If you have any interest in the PA track, try and find a program that gives you a masters degree with the PA certificate, rather than repeating the Bachelors degree.

So, sometimes you don't "plan" on it and it works out--I had pretty much given up going to school when I walked into the Podiatry track.  Long haul to get to here (and it will be much longer when a residency finally ends and I have to re-pay student loans).

AFARR

Wow, you guys are awesome. I really appreciate the advice and information. I am heading in for the evening but I will for sure look through the links and consider all that you have said. Once again, thank you for taking the time to convey your experiences. It is appreciated.

gvidon212

On the EMT issue, look into what volunteer oppertunities are available in your area, because in most areas in return for volunteering all schooling is paid for.

Here in my county you can go all the way to Paramedic, Level II Firefighter, Haz-mat tech, And Rescue Tech with virtually no out of pocket expenses, and have certififcations that are valid in most states but a few odd ones.

Go to law school.  Less brains needed, less work, less expense, and the same salary.

Quoted: Go to law school.  Less brains needed, less work, less expense, and the same salary.

I agree with everything but the "same salary" thing. The average physician salary is ~3-4 times the average JD salary.

Please don't let the discouraging things written deter you from going for it. Sure you may have to take a few courses and study but it is well worth it. The job market is wonderful (esp. in Anesthesiology); you will have no trouble finding work.

Glad to see drjarhead chim in! He's the greatest FP I know on this site!

For those interested, Tufts University has a one year prep. program to prepare for admission to med school.

My brother in law just completed a program at Columbia that is designed for college grads who didn't do their prereqs to go to med school.  It was gruelling, but you may want to look into it, the med school acceptance rate from the program is very high.

Quoted: I just graduated with a BA in political science and am considering a profession in medicine. The problem is though, I have absolutly no background in science due to an undergraduate career focused on government, history, and philosophy. Do any of you guys know what requirements I would need to fulfill before applying to med school, and if there are programs designed for people to "catch up"? Thanks for the advice.

Shouldn't you just go ask the school what the requirements are and fulfill them?  

One thing to think about.  My good friend was an average student who had to be a doctor.  Applied for 6 years to the U. of Washington Med. School before being accepted.  He finished top of his class with an offer to instruct!  His fresh/soph years weren't even at the UW (he transferred in from a Div.II school!).  Put your mind to it, never give up and you'll get what you want.  That's what he did, even when so many told him to move on and give up his dream.

I was thinking about going to dental school last year, the pre-reqs are the same for medical school.

About 32 credits of chemistry and biology classes.  I had all the math and english stuff covered in my degree. Would take about a three semester year of full time classes to get it all done, plus the MCAT.

Check out St. Mathews Medical School, Grand Caymans Campus.

I am in medical school now.. I can not recomend it to anyone.. I am too far in to back out, and am sure I will like being a doctor, but steer clear man, unless it is your life long dream... it is just not worth it

Granted, I just matched today in Neurology, so I am riding pretty high right now.
Don't let the naysayers get you down. If you want to be a doctor, go be a doctor. It is rewarding and fulfilling in ways that I think all other jobs fall short of. If you have doubts, you should look long and hard in the mirror, because med school does suck. But hey, I made it through, so anyone can.

As far as getting in, a few posters above have mentioned programs specifically for people in your shoes. Here's one from the #2 med school in the country, Wash U.
www.artsci.wustl.edu/~ucollege/postbacc.html

Good luck!
tony

Quoted: Glad to see drjarhead chim in! He's the greatest FP I know on this site!

Hey, wait a minute. Ain't I the only FP on this site?

One thing that is ever hardly covered is you really ought to take some business courses.  Having hired over 16 M.D.'s I have yet to have one come through that had any formal business education and very few had any practical business knowledge.  Most M.D.'s significantly lower their earning potential just by not knowing the basics.

Quoted: One thing that is ever hardly covered is you really ought to take some business courses.  Having hired over 16 M.D.'s I have yet to have one come through that had any formal business education and very few had any practical business knowledge.  Most M.D.'s significantly lower their earning potential just by not knowing the basics.

You are right of course but who the hell has time for that?

Tony, congrats! -- where are you headed?

Hielo,

You are correct on the lacking business knowledge.  School and residency don't do anything to prepare you for the business world.  Residencies are based out of hospitals, and frequently teaching hospitals that treat everyone with the Drs having no knowledge of the patients financial abilities, insurance, etc.  In the real world, as I am learning, you have to market effectively, know what will be covered for your patients by their insurance co. (the podiatrist I am working for right now has billed over 32 different insurance co's, and knows the basics of what each covers for her most common prescriptions and tests), and know how to manage a business.

The only school I have ever had experience with that taught business was Dental School--I worked with a bunch of dental students once.  They didn't get clinic credit if their patients didn't show up, or didn't pay, so they learned to keep an eye on those things.

AFARR

If you really want to be a physician, go for it, but be aware of the difficulties involved as mentioned earlier.  I examined med school and several other medical fields before deciding upon pharmacy.  Insurance, legal hassles, and .gov red tape has taken the fun out of many medical fields (including mine).  Examine what your goals are and make sure you can accept the lifestyle and stress.  I narrowed my choices down to optometry or pharmacy before I made my decision.

I am happy enough with my career, but if I had to do it all over again I would have looked a lot harder at optometry.  Being self employed has become more appealing to me as I have gotten older, and I think that optometry is one of the few medical professions that health insurance hasnt decimated yet.  Independent pharmacy is dying fast (insurance does not pay enough to cover expenses - the few who are still surviving dont make money with their prescription counter, they do it with other services like DME and custom compounding), and the docs on this board can fill you in on the sordid details of trying to run a medical practice.

Good luck with whatever choice you make.

Quoted: Tony, congrats! -- where are you headed?

UAMS. Home sweet home. I will probably go away to do a fellowship though.
tony

Thanks for your help guys. I checked out some of the links provided. Has anyone here done a Post-Baccalaureate program? Are they all two years, and then how long is medical school thereafter? I am trying to get a sense of how much more education this would require. Lastly, how long do residencies go for?

+1 for PA school.  One of my sister's friend's ex-gf is a surgical PA, and out of PA school is making $120000/yr for working 36hrs a week, plus she gets to do surgery.  Of course, she's really hot, and the surgeons are horndogs, so that might have something to do with it.

Quoted: Quoted: The best advice, steer clear of med school.  Todays climate is not one for a good career in medicine. Just curious what your rationale or your background is on this? Im in nursing school and everyone and their brother has offered me a job when I graduate. Not the same as a Doc, but why would the climate not be good for medicine?

Because within the next... 10 years (I'm guessing - +/- 5 years (more likely plus)) they will have cured ALL of the major diseases, Lupus, Celiac Disease, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Cushing's Disease, Sjogren's Syndrome, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Multiple Sclerosis, Parkinson's, Altzheimer's, Sarcadosis, Addison's Disease, Graves' Disease/Hyperthyroidism, Hashimoto's Hypothyroidism, Heart Disease, Stroke, Bi-Polar, ADD, ADHD, High Blood Pressure, Pulmonary Fibrosis, Cystic Fibrosis, Muscular distrophy, Diabetes type 1 & 2, the list is endless.

Why/How? Well, in (I think) 2003 President Bush signed an order for the FDA to make an RDA for Omega 3 fatty acids. I BELIEVE it is supposed to be 2G/day. It goes into effect sometime in 2006. When that occurs, the incidence of most EVERYTHING you guys deal w/ that an anti-biotic, anti-fungal or anti-viral won't "fix" is gonna drop significantly. When THAT happens, maybe the scientifioc medical community will take it's collective head out of it's nether regions and put 2 + 2 and come up w/4. Pellegra, Beri-Beri and Scurvy ALL were "terrible diseases" killed many peoplethe medical wisdom at THOSE times tried their BEST to deny that the LACK of a specific nutrient could POSSIBLY be implicated. But then, after pulling their heads out of their neter regions, they discovered that WAS the problem, and took steps to correct it.

The addition of the omega 3's is also VERY likely to impact cancer, though, IMO lignans are a more critical factor.

Essentially, there will be a FAR lessor NEED for medical professionals VERY soon. It'll probably take at least ... 7-14 more years to "mop up" the truely idiotic/moronic folks. There will likely still be SOME "flu" and other viral/bacterial/fungal problems....but a LOT of these also get "cleaned up" by the omega 3's  - and the strenthening of the immune system by the O3's... so the incidence of these infections will be minimized.

Sorry.

Of course people will still have "injuries" ... but if you go into "disease" .... not likely to be needed in the future. Emergency medicine will be somewhat "safer" anyway. FWIW.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The best advice, steer clear of med school.  Todays climate is not one for a good career in medicine. Just curious what your rationale or your background is on this? Im in nursing school and everyone and their brother has offered me a job when I graduate. Not the same as a Doc, but why would the climate not be good for medicine? Because within the next... 10 years (I'm guessing - +/- 5 years (more likely plus)) they will have cured ALL of the major diseases, Lupus, Celiac Disease, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Cushing's Disease, Sjogren's Syndrome, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Multiple Sclerosis, Parkinson's, Altzheimer's, Sarcadosis, Addison's Disease, Graves' Disease/Hyperthyroidism, Hashimoto's Hypothyroidism, Heart Disease, Stroke, Bi-Polar, ADD, ADHD, High Blood Pressure, Pulmonary Fibrosis, Cystic Fibrosis, Muscular distrophy, Diabetes type 1 & 2, the list is endless. Why/How? Well, in (I think) 2003 President Bush signed an order for the FDA to make an RDA for Omega 3 fatty acids. I BELIEVE it is supposed to be 2G/day. It goes into effect sometime in 2006. When that occurs, the incidence of most EVERYTHING you guys deal w/ that an anti-biotic, anti-fungal or anti-viral won't "fix" is gonna drop significantly. When THAT happens, maybe the scientifioc medical community will take it's collective head out of it's nether regions and put 2 + 2 and come up w/4. Pellegra, Beri-Beri and Scurvy ALL were "terrible diseases" killed many peoplethe medical wisdom at THOSE times tried their BEST to deny that the LACK of a specific nutrient could POSSIBLY be implicated. But then, after pulling their heads out of their neter regions, they discovered that WAS the problem, and took steps to correct it. The addition of the omega 3's is also VERY likely to impact cancer, though, IMO lignans are a more critical factor. Essentially, there will be a FAR lessor NEED for medical professionals VERY soon. It'll probably take at least ... 7-14 more years to "mop up" the truely idiotic/moronic folks. There will likely still be SOME "flu" and other viral/bacterial/fungal problems....but a LOT of these also get "cleaned up" by the omega 3's  - and the strenthening of the immune system by the O3's... so the incidence of these infections will be minimized. Sorry. Of course people will still have "injuries" ... but if you go into "disease" .... not likely to be needed in the future. Emergency medicine will be somewhat "safer" anyway. FWIW.

You obviously don't know shit about medicine.

Quoted: You obviously don't know shit about medicine.

Yeah... see if you say that in 10-15 years. I'd lay $ you have NO CLUE how to cure MS. _I_ do. Current "medical professionals" have little to no clue. I know what causes it, I know how to repair the damage it causes and how to halt it's progression. Do you?

My guess is you are a "doctor" or other medical professional. Which is why you are so close-minded. Open your mind, think a little bit, then do some research. All of the auto-immune diseases are CAUSED by the same mechinism, concentrate on what they've determined "helps" Sjogren's and Lupus. All of the auto-immune diseases can all be improved if not cured by fixing it.

"Doctors" of "the day" also "poo pooed" those trying to point out that addition of fresh fruits and veggies "cured" scurvy. That Beri-Beri was a thiamine (B1) deficiency. Or that Pellegra was caused by Niacin (vitamin B3) deficiency.

Open your mind "doc". Think. And look into alternative occupations if you won't be retired by say 2015-2020. Or unless you are VERY VERY good at what you do. And since YOU seem to have no clue... I'm betting on the looking for an alternate occupation ;)

Wanna discuss pathology? Etiology? Go for it. I'd bet I know at LEAST 20X what you do. At LEAST.

Quoted: Quoted: You obviously don't know shit about medicine. Yeah... see if you say that in 10-15 years. I'd lay $ you have NO CLUE how to cure MS. _I_ do. Current "medical professionals" have little to no clue. I know what causes it, I know how to repair the damage it causes and how to halt it's progression. Do you? My guess is you are a "doctor" or other medical professional. Which is why you are so close-minded. Open your mind, think a little bit, then do some research. All of the auto-immune diseases are CAUSED by the same mechinism, concentrate on what they've determined "helps" Sjogren's and Lupus. All of the auto-immune diseases can all be improved if not cured by fixing it. "Doctors" of "the day" also "poo pooed" those trying to point out that addition of fresh fruits and veggies "cured" scurvy. That Beri-Beri was a thiamine (B1) deficiency. Or that Pellegra was caused by Niacin (vitamin B3) deficiency. Open your mind "doc". Think. And look into alternative occupations if you won't be retired by say 2015-2020. Or unless you are VERY VERY good at what you do. And since YOU seem to have no clue... I'm betting on the looking for an alternate occupation ;) Wanna discuss pathology? Etiology? Go for it. I'd bet I know at LEAST 20X what you do. At LEAST.

uh, oh..... this is gonna get nasty.... Gonna go make some popcorn.....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You obviously don't know shit about medicine. Yeah... see if you say that in 10-15 years. I'd lay $ you have NO CLUE how to cure MS. _I_ do. Current "medical professionals" have little to no clue. I know what causes it, I know how to repair the damage it causes and how to halt it's progression. Do you? My guess is you are a "doctor" or other medical professional. Which is why you are so close-minded. Open your mind, think a little bit, then do some research. All of the auto-immune diseases are CAUSED by the same mechinism, concentrate on what they've determined "helps" Sjogren's and Lupus. All of the auto-immune diseases can all be improved if not cured by fixing it. "Doctors" of "the day" also "poo pooed" those trying to point out that addition of fresh fruits and veggies "cured" scurvy. That Beri-Beri was a thiamine (B1) deficiency. Or that Pellegra was caused by Niacin (vitamin B3) deficiency. Open your mind "doc". Think. And look into alternative occupations if you won't be retired by say 2015-2020. Or unless you are VERY VERY good at what you do. And since YOU seem to have no clue... I'm betting on the looking for an alternate occupation ;) Wanna discuss pathology? Etiology? Go for it. I'd bet I know at LEAST 20X what you do. At LEAST. uh, oh..... this is gonna get nasty.... Gonna go make some popcorn.....

Hey, he insulted me FIRST... ;)

And if he IS a "doctor" I have a LITTLE more respect for used auto salesmen than I do for docs... but just BARELY. But all the damn letters in the alphabet after your name don't mean SHIT if you cannot DO your JOB! (in a docs case, "heal" people.) Now docs do a DAMN FINE job with INJURIES. Break a bone - doc is the way to go. But get/develop a DISEASE? No phoquing way... except MAYBE for a DX... they TEND to do a FAIR job at providing the correct DX.

Docs (I GO TO) have NO idea what to do w/me as I speak their "mysterious medicaleese" and they cannot intimidate me with large words. Wah.

But I pretty much GUARANTEE that his main "argument" will be, "there's nothing but anecdotal evidence to support than contention". That's a doctors way of saying, "Uh... well.. um... Hun't uh!"

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You obviously don't know shit about medicine. Yeah... see if you say that in 10-15 years. I'd lay $ you have NO CLUE how to cure MS. _I_ do. Current "medical professionals" have little to no clue. I know what causes it, I know how to repair the damage it causes and how to halt it's progression. Do you? My guess is you are a "doctor" or other medical professional. Which is why you are so close-minded. Open your mind, think a little bit, then do some research. All of the auto-immune diseases are CAUSED by the same mechinism, concentrate on what they've determined "helps" Sjogren's and Lupus. All of the auto-immune diseases can all be improved if not cured by fixing it. "Doctors" of "the day" also "poo pooed" those trying to point out that addition of fresh fruits and veggies "cured" scurvy. That Beri-Beri was a thiamine (B1) deficiency. Or that Pellegra was caused by Niacin (vitamin B3) deficiency. Open your mind "doc". Think. And look into alternative occupations if you won't be retired by say 2015-2020. Or unless you are VERY VERY good at what you do. And since YOU seem to have no clue... I'm betting on the looking for an alternate occupation ;) Wanna discuss pathology? Etiology? Go for it. I'd bet I know at LEAST 20X what you do. At LEAST. uh, oh..... this is gonna get nasty.... Gonna go make some popcorn..... Hey, he insulted me FIRST... ;) And if he IS a "doctor" I have a LITTLE more respect for used auto salesmen than I do for docs... but just BARELY. But all the damn letters in the alphabet after your name don't mean SHIT if you cannot DO your JOB! (in a docs case, "heal" people.) Now docs do a DAMN FINE job with INJURIES. Break a bone - doc is the way to go. But get/develop a DISEASE? No phoquing way... except MAYBE for a DX... they TEND to do a FAIR job at providing the correct DX. Docs (I GO TO) have NO idea what to do w/me as I speak their "mysterious medicaleese" and they cannot intimidate me with large words. Wah. But I pretty much GUARANTEE that his main "argument" will be, "there's nothing but anecdotal evidence to support than contention". That's a doctors way of saying, "Uh... well.. um... Hun't uh!"

you have some very strong opinions about those of us in health related fields. what I don't understand is, why do you go to the doctor if you claim to know more than he/she?

go back and get all of your science, then med school

you should finish just as president hillary signs the national health care act and turns you into a low pay government employee.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The best advice, steer clear of med school.  Todays climate is not one for a good career in medicine. Just curious what your rationale or your background is on this? Im in nursing school and everyone and their brother has offered me a job when I graduate. Not the same as a Doc, but why would the climate not be good for medicine? Because within the next... 10 years (I'm guessing - +/- 5 years (more likely plus)) they will have cured ALL of the major diseases, Lupus, Celiac Disease, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Cushing's Disease, Sjogren's Syndrome, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Multiple Sclerosis, Parkinson's, Altzheimer's, Sarcadosis, Addison's Disease, Graves' Disease/Hyperthyroidism, Hashimoto's Hypothyroidism, Heart Disease, Stroke, Bi-Polar, ADD, ADHD, High Blood Pressure, Pulmonary Fibrosis, Cystic Fibrosis, Muscular distrophy, Diabetes type 1 & 2, the list is endless. Why/How? Well, in (I think) 2003 President Bush signed an order for the FDA to make an RDA for Omega 3 fatty acids. I BELIEVE it is supposed to be 2G/day. It goes into effect sometime in 2006. When that occurs, the incidence of most EVERYTHING you guys deal w/ that an anti-biotic, anti-fungal or anti-viral won't "fix" is gonna drop significantly. When THAT happens, maybe the scientifioc medical community will take it's collective head out of it's nether regions and put 2 + 2 and come up w/4. Pellegra, Beri-Beri and Scurvy ALL were "terrible diseases" killed many peoplethe medical wisdom at THOSE times tried their BEST to deny that the LACK of a specific nutrient could POSSIBLY be implicated. But then, after pulling their heads out of their neter regions, they discovered that WAS the problem, and took steps to correct it. The addition of the omega 3's is also VERY likely to impact cancer, though, IMO lignans are a more critical factor. Essentially, there will be a FAR lessor NEED for medical professionals VERY soon. It'll probably take at least ... 7-14 more years to "mop up" the truely idiotic/moronic folks. There will likely still be SOME "flu" and other viral/bacterial/fungal problems....but a LOT of these also get "cleaned up" by the omega 3's  - and the strenthening of the immune system by the O3's... so the incidence of these infections will be minimized. Sorry. Of course people will still have "injuries" ... but if you go into "disease" .... not likely to be needed in the future. Emergency medicine will be somewhat "safer" anyway. FWIW.

I seem to remember some similar claims made about Laetrile, aka "the magic bullet".  Snake-oil (or in this case, fish oil) salesmen have been present since recorded time.  This is not to say that Omega-3s don't serve a purpose; it's just that they certainly won't cure everything.  I recommend you start your own thread.  Don't forget your tinfoil hat.  

Quoted: Quoted: You obviously don't know shit about medicine. Yeah... see if you say that in 10-15 years. I'd lay $ you have NO CLUE how to cure MS. _I_ do. Current "medical professionals" have little to no clue. I know what causes it, I know how to repair the damage it causes and how to halt it's progression. Do you?

Sure you do. The evil doctors are just hiding the cure because they like making money.

Quoted: Quoted: You obviously don't know shit about medicine. Yeah... see if you say that in 10-15 years. I'd lay $ you have NO CLUE how to cure MS. _I_ do. Current "medical professionals" have little to no clue. I know what causes it, I know how to repair the damage it causes and how to halt it's progression. Do you? My guess is you are a "doctor" or other medical professional. Which is why you are so close-minded. Open your mind, think a little bit, then do some research. All of the auto-immune diseases are CAUSED by the same mechinism, concentrate on what they've determined "helps" Sjogren's and Lupus. All of the auto-immune diseases can all be improved if not cured by fixing it. "Doctors" of "the day" also "poo pooed" those trying to point out that addition of fresh fruits and veggies "cured" scurvy. That Beri-Beri was a thiamine (B1) deficiency. Or that Pellegra was caused by Niacin (vitamin B3) deficiency. Open your mind "doc". Think. And look into alternative occupations if you won't be retired by say 2015-2020. Or unless you are VERY VERY good at what you do. And since YOU seem to have no clue... I'm betting on the looking for an alternate occupation ;) Wanna discuss pathology? Etiology? Go for it. I'd bet I know at LEAST 20X what you do. At LEAST.

You sound just about delusional to me.

You submit that because a few vitamin deficiencies are cured with vitamins that everything can be. That mentality is infantile and shows a total misunderstanding of a multitude of disease processes.

You can cure MS? LMAO. I think you need a shrink.
But if you could cure MS you would be doing it, as it would make you a VERY, VERY rich man. So take your shot--I can't wait to see the controlled studies.

Yeah, you're correct, I am an MD. Your opinion nothwithstanding, I am very good at what I do. In your case you sound like a disturbed homosexual. Well, hell that's exactly what you are.
In my case, I could move on to another field any time. In all honesty I am so sick of seeing emotionally disturbed people like you that loss of work in the medical profession wouldn't bother me one bit. I can just about guarantee you that I'll be out of it long before 15 years. Further, I would actually be thrilled to be out of business due to a lack of illness and disease.

As for a bet, I'd go at least (AT LEAST) a grand if I thought there was EVER a chance of getting ANY money from you. 15 years? LMAO.

If your heart isnt in helping and treating people then medicine is not for you.  The money isnt there anymore so most of the rewards are from my patients themselves.  The hug that my 22yo patient gave me when I diagnosed her with cancer and cured her is everything. She will not be able to have childen but will live a long life.  The 80yo lady that always stops to say hello to me because I was able to stop her from leaking urine so she can go out and shop and play pinnocle with her girlfriends.  

The money isnt there for the amount of work you put in.  The gray hairs are multiplying on my head as we speak!

Quoted: I seem to remember some similar claims made about Laetrile, aka "the magic bullet".  Snake-oil (or in this case, fish oil) salesmen have been present since recorded time.  This is not to say that Omega-3s don't serve a purpose; it's just that they certainly won't cure everything.  I recommend you start your own thread.  Don't forget your tinfoil hat.

I'm not EXACTLY saying it will "cure" everything as much as I'm saying that the LACK of it is CAUSING most disease. Hence REPLACING adequate quantities "fixes" the symptoms, and alleviates the disease process. Minor difference, certainly, but a difference. I had this figured out (to a lesser extent than I do now) 5 years ago. NOW the docs are BEGINNING to catch up. They've implicated omega 3 deficiency in SOME auto-immune diseases, Sjogren's, Lupus, RA. They are BEGINNING to put it together w/Altzheimer's, Parkinson's and some others... but not enough, not FAST enough. Plus enough of them bugged the President sufficiently to convince him to direct the FDA to announce an RDA for the omega 3's. (Coming in 2006). Last I heard, it's supposed to be 2G/day.

My Grandmother's cousin had Sjogren's. She couldn't see well enough to drive. The docs were doing spit. I did about 1 hour's worth of research and gave her a regimine of suppliments she should take. Explaining everything as fully as I could. Not KNOWING if I had clue 1 what I was talking about, she asked her doc - especially about the omega 3's. He said, "I don't think that has anything to do with what you have". Then on the NEXT visit to the doc (fortunately he was ignorant, NOT stoopid [sic]. )He said, "Remember asking me about those omega 3's...? Well, I did some scientific research, and turns out, she was right." Then gave her a list VERY similar to the one I gave her of things he wanted her on. Though they were all pharmaceutical grade items. . Now 2 years later not ONLY can she SEE well enough to drive, BUT she's feeling a LOT better, in general (for someone in her late 60's)

Your EYES, Kidneys, bladder, BRAIN, all have SIGNIFICANT levels of omega 3's. EVERY CELL IN YOUR BODY is surrounded by DHA...(an omega 3) 99% of Americans have diets that are DEFICIENT in omega 3's... (20% critically deficient) so when cells die...how does one's body "replace" them? Well, it uses the best available "substitute". (From the studies I've read, looks like omega 6's, most often) So would YOU "buy" a house where the contractor's suppliers "ran out" of 2X4's and 2X6's and 2X8s and instead they substituted 2X2's? Well, GEE, why NOT? It's PRACTICALLY the same thing! It's ALL WOOD after all! It won't make any difference!

Just remember that you dissed me in 10-15 years. Then look me up an appologize, eh?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You obviously don't know shit about medicine. Yeah... see if you say that in 10-15 years. I'd lay $ you have NO CLUE how to cure MS. _I_ do. Current "medical professionals" have little to no clue. I know what causes it, I know how to repair the damage it causes and how to halt it's progression. Do you? Sure you do. The evil doctors are just hiding the cure because they like making money.

Hey, I've PROVEN it. I can "cause" and alleviate my MS attacks at will. (Given about a month's notice anyway for the "inducement" MAYBE a week to fully reverse it, and about 2 months to reverse all damage that occurred DURING the attack), and it may be a tad longer now, as I saw a 2 day increase each time. And it's been over a year since I last did so). I've done it 4 times. First time, co-incidence. Second time, COULD be co-incidence, but MAYBE I'm "on" to something. Third time...Hmmm... Fourth time, by jove I've got it!

And no, I don't think it's a conspiracy, I just think that the medical profession is being particularly dense is all. PLUS, even though it DID make SOME sense, _I_ really didn't think it WOULD work, but it DID. Some of the RESEARCHERS are on the ball though, and really getting somewhere. At BEST I'd say 5 years, as they tend to NOT move very "rapidly" on much of anything ;) (And, granted, for good (malpractice) reasons). But in THIS, anyway, being a pessimist... give it 10-15 ;)

They've (docs) "invested" a LOT in "pharmaceuticals" and what not, but most of TODAY'S Pharmaceuticals do NOTHING to affect a CURE, and EVERYTHING to "alleviate symptoms" - because the pharmaceutical companies FEED Docs all their intel... well, MOST of it (post graduation). And if the pharm companies CURE the disease they can't sell prescriptions to someone the rest of their life, can they?

Let me ask this: If you pulled into a garage and told them that your oil light came on, can they take care of it and they said, "SURE!" and proceded to snip the wire to the oil light and said, "All fixed! $35 please!" would YOU "buy" that? (well, maybe you WOULD ;) SURE they fixed the SYMPTOM (the initial one, anyway) but the oil STILL needs either changed, or MORE oil needs added. Without addressing THAT, how long do you think your car will actually RUN?

Point is, I was told I'd NEVER have better than 20/1000 vision in my right eye (due to an attack of MS prior to starting my "regimine"). This was 4 months AFTER the attack - 3 months being the "normal" timeframe given for "recovery" of ability. I now have 20/40 vision in that eye. RIGHT where it was prior to the MS attack that took ALL the sight (initially) from that eye.

Don''t buy it? I don't give a phoque. I know the truth, and you'll know I HAD the answer after all... assuming you don't die from one of the omega 3 deficiency diseases (my term, not theirs ;) before the medicos catch up ;)

Quoted: you have some very strong opinions about those of us in health related fields. what I don't understand is, why do you go to the doctor if you claim to know more than he/she?

I wouldn't if I had fair access to proper tools like they do, namely (this past Novemeber) I had to go get a TB test, as I traveled to Korea and was exposed to TB.

Also, as I stated previously, I may KNOW more (in certain areas) but I'm not as skilled in treating injuries (they're actually pretty good at this), nor infectious diseases (like TB, for instance), and I don't have the schooling/training they do to correctly DIAGNOSE things (altho I've done well a COUPLE of times... it was more intellect + luck, IMO).  I gave them the "good" at DX and good at "injuries" - go look... I did.  Honest ;)

And YEAH, I'm kinda pissed at the PROFESSION. Probably not exactly "fair" but I'd estimate that only 5-10% of your profession are worth $2 let alone some of the fees your profession garners (but then I WAS spoiled by a doc I grew up w/who when I FIRST went to him DID charge $2/visit and had increased it to $5 by the time I graduated HS... . I think I've maybe met...5 doctors out of like... 20 that I'd say are worth spit. Granted, 20 isn't the entire profession. However, _I_ figured it out, without all the expensive training, taught myself the applicable portions of organic chemistry that applied to the AI diseases +++ had I NOT had to learn the terminology, the etiology the pathogenesis, a good deal of immunology and things YOU all ALREADY know, it would have MAYBE taken me 3 months to figure it all out. And GRANTED I did NOT think I was right. (So why would YOU think that the omega 3's were 90% of the "answer?") But I STILL tried it because I was 33 and my life was effectively OVER. My fatigue (fatigue HA! - try EXHAUSTION!) was so bad that during "bad weeks" I was sleeping 14-17.5 hours a DAY, good weeks it was more like 11-12. I was loosing bladder control, and other things. I couldn't see well out of one eye, my gait was phoqued, sometimes my speech was so slurred I could NOT be understood. When I COULD walk I HAD to use a cane 50% of the time, or more often. I had to CRAWL to the bathroom because of poor balance/coordination most days. I had BAD migraines typically at LEAST 1-2X a week. So quiet and dark - of course I was pretty much sleeping all the damn time anyway...

Now I'm looking at going back to work, probably full time by next year (crossing fingers).

I appologise, I don't mean to dis ALL doctors... most, though.... BUT, had I performed MY job the way most docs do THEIRS I'd have been FIRED post haste. "I don't know" was NOT an acceptable answer UNLESS it was followed by, "But I'll find out!" And I'm fairly critical of work ethic in general. (Waiters/waitresses get $.01-5% tip for poor/bad service, 8-10% for adequate service 15% for good service and 25+% for Excellent service. The highest I've ever tipped was, I believe around 40% but she was PHENOMINAL (or maybe psychic - she was that good ;)

Quoted: You sound just about delusional to me. You submit that because a few vitamin deficiencies are cured with vitamins that everything can be. That mentality is infantile and shows a total misunderstanding of a multitude of disease processes. You can cure MS? LMAO. I think you need a shrink. But if you could cure MS you would be doing it, as it would make you a VERY, VERY rich man. So take your shot--I can't wait to see the controlled studies. Yeah, you're correct, I am an MD. Your opinion nothwithstanding, I am very good at what I do. In your case you sound like a disturbed homosexual. Well, hell that's exactly what you are. In my case, I could move on to another field any time. In all honesty I am so sick of seeing emotionally disturbed people like you that loss of work in the medical profession wouldn't bother me one bit. I can just about guarantee you that I'll be out of it long before 15 years. Further, I would actually be thrilled to be out of business due to a lack of illness and disease. As for a bet, I'd go at least (AT LEAST) a grand if I thought there was EVER a chance of getting ANY money from you. 15 years? LMAO.

First, this being the internet, and any idiot with a computer and an internet connection or a library pass can get online and write... well, pretty much anything, I totally understand your position. But I assure you I am neither delusional nor do I need a shrink (BTW, is that a CoC violation? ;)

Second, it would make me a rich WOMAN IF that's what I was looking to be. I'm not saying I would MIND it.... but that's not my goal. My goal is to HELP people. If I can do THAT I may not be $ rich, but I WILL be rich. Frankly, I already AM. I've helped SEVERAL people here locally, including my grandmother and gradfather, a former schoolmate, 3 Pink Pistols members (one put away her wheelchair and walker though she's not had to USE the cane, it's stuill "handy" last I heard. My partner, her ... well her daughter's mother-in-law. About a dozen others. Ailments from diabetes to MS to Pulmonary Fibrosis to Cancer to Altzheimer's Hypothyroidism (she's down from .75 of the medication to .5) to Sjogren's to whatever that "frequent urination" thing is called, to Fibromyligia to Scleroderma.

Third. They've implicated omega 3 deficiency in Sjogren's (an auto-immune disorder), Lupus, they ARE "getting there" on MS, but, IMO they are missing the octacosanol "factor" and are unlikely to "get" anywhere HIGHLY significant until they do (they'll see improvement, just not reversal). Also, I'm on the omega 9's as well, I realize that THESE are NOT "essential" but intuition tells me they are likely somehow significant. I've not had time to form a rational basis for this beyond other people anecdotally not doing as well as I on "fish oil" but taking similar amounts w/all the other likely suspects. So not certain if it's the Alpha-linolenic acid or the oleic acid (I take flax oil so I get some of both), and haven't had the time to determine which and why.

Glad you'll be "out of the profession" in 15 years... (for YOUR sake) though they DO seem to be progressing faster than I had anticipated... what can I say, I'm a pessimist ;)

I'm also heartened that you would WELCOME the end of disease. Maybe there IS hope for you ;)

Now, just for giggles, check this out:

Journal of the American College of Nutrition

Also:

In a study of phospholipids in MS patients, the levels of almost all of the omega-6 fatty acids were found to be normal whereas the levels of all omega-3 fatty acids were found to be below normal. The results of this research suggest that MS patients might be more critically deficient in omega-3 fatty acids than omega-6. [Holman RT, et al. Deficiencies of polyunsaturated fatty acids and replacement by nonessential fatty acids in plasma lipids in multiple sclerosis. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA. Jun1989;86(12):4720-4.]

Which ALSO supports my contention. But, IMO, the "PROOF" is my 90% "recovery" and going from 8 exacerbations under the doctors care to 1 in 4 years under my own (5 in 4 years if you count the ones I deliberately "caused" by stopping the omega 3 and ONLY the omega 3 supplimentation.

Now, consider what has BEEN "blamed" in the past as the "cause" of MS prior to studies that DISPROVED these (alone, anyway) to be the "cause".

Vaccines (Chicken Pox, Hepatitis B, Flu)
Stress
Allergies

I know there were more "false alarms" but these are the ones that come to mind. So, what do all of these have in COMMON?

Well, the first and last activate the immune system, right? Activating the immune system causes a rapid depletion of omega 3 fatty acids... so does stress. Hmmm.

Take a deep hard look at why you are considering becoming a doc.  The climate continues to change for the  worse as we're treated more like commodities by hospitals/insurance companies/politicians.  It's certainly not what it used to be.  Autonomy gets smaller every year as do reimbursements.  Only thing getting larger is the amount of paperwork/credentialing/3rd party oversight.  

The frustrations are not worth job security and relatively good income when you get there if it that's a major factor for you.  Business ignorant docs are no match for shrewd lawyers, CEO's, and politicians who institute policy we have to live by.

Have a purpose to be happy within this system be it genuine love of humanity, advancing science, or to earn that MD and an MBA/JD to stand and fight for the cause of doctors and patients with policy makers.  Otherwise you will be miserable, wasted nearly 10 years of the prime of your life and bitter.  Think about it hard.

Go dental...thats what i did...

I was planning on taking the MCAT, but at the last minute decided on taking the DAT...did well, got accepted to a dental school..and am having a blast.

i cant say the same for my friends in medical school.  And aside from the fact they are miserable, dollars to donuts says ill be making more money than they are.

Here's a link for a one year post-baccalaureate premedical program at Goucher College in Maryland;

www.goucher.edu/postbac

Good Luck on your studies if you decide to study medicine.