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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 9/19/2007 9:01:18 PM EST
Treading lightly, the thought entered my mind today about how religious persons, specifically the stricter types, view those who effectively killed themselves before burning to death or dying from smoke.

No one will ever be able to enter the mind of a person faced with such a decision, but half of me cant help but think maybe, just maybe the horrible situation led them to think that they may survive the jump, the other half says no way.

With that in mind, how do the stricter (zealots?) view the fate of those that jumped?
Link Posted: 9/19/2007 9:25:52 PM EST
I definately would qualify as a zealot by most people's standard and I would say that He will deal with these people the same as everyone else. According to what they did with Christ when the Spirit revealed Him to them.

If they received Him as Lord and then jumped off the building, they are saved.

If they rejected Him as Lord and they jumped off the building then they are lost.

Salvation is not about works or our successes or failures in life, it is about Jesus.
Link Posted: 9/19/2007 9:27:46 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2007 9:28:48 PM EST by AROptics]
Moving away from instantaneously skin scorching heat is a reflex, not a decision.

Suicide is a decision.
Link Posted: 9/19/2007 9:44:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By AROptics:
Moving away from instantaneously skin scorching heat is a reflex, not a decision.

Suicide is a decision.

Many had plenty of time to THINK it through. IIRC, I very sadly recall a couple holding hands as they jumped. Hardly a reflex in the traditional sense.
Link Posted: 9/19/2007 9:53:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2007 9:55:05 PM EST by MudBug]
I try not to think about it.

I wasn't there so I know this may sound strange, but the stories and few pictures from that time really effected me. I can almost feel the fear and horror they must have gone through and it makes my skin crawl and my heart feel real heavy. It's one of my top ten horrific memories.

So, does that sound strange considering I was in Nor Cal when this happened?


ETA: Sorry, I didn't realize this was the Religion forum.
Link Posted: 9/19/2007 9:58:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2007 10:03:22 PM EST by AROptics]

Originally Posted By The_Biased_Observer:

Originally Posted By AROptics:
Moving away from instantaneously skin scorching heat is a reflex, not a decision.

Suicide is a decision.

Many had plenty of time to THINK it through. IIRC, I very sadly recall a couple holding hands as they jumped. Hardly a reflex in the traditional sense.


So condemned prisoners who are given the choice between lethal injection and the gas chamber are committing suicide because they make a choice?

Given any option to live they would have taken it. That is not suicide.

Given this seems an attempt to rip religion at the cost of the poor people who were murdered on 9/11, I'm out.
Link Posted: 9/19/2007 10:05:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By AROptics:

Originally Posted By The_Biased_Observer:

Originally Posted By AROptics:
Moving away from instantaneously skin scorching heat is a reflex, not a decision.

Suicide is a decision.

Many had plenty of time to THINK it through. IIRC, I very sadly recall a couple holding hands as they jumped. Hardly a reflex in the traditional sense.


So condemned prisoners who are given the choice between lethal injection and the gas chamber are committing suicide because they make a choice?

Given any option to live they would have taken it. That is not suicide.

Given this seems an attempt to rip religion at the cost of the poor people who were murdered on 9/11, I'm out.


I agree. When death is inevitable and imminent, choosing quick over long and painful shouldn't be considered suicide.
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 6:38:22 AM EST
Considering the fact that those people were faced with certain, and potentially very painful death, I refrain from trying to judge their decision. I trust in the Lord's mercy on this subject.
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 8:39:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By AROptics:

Originally Posted By The_Biased_Observer:

Originally Posted By AROptics:
Moving away from instantaneously skin scorching heat is a reflex, not a decision.

Suicide is a decision.

Many had plenty of time to THINK it through. IIRC, I very sadly recall a couple holding hands as they jumped. Hardly a reflex in the traditional sense.


So condemned prisoners who are given the choice between lethal injection and the gas chamber are committing suicide because they make a choice?

Given any option to live they would have taken it. That is not suicide.

Given this seems an attempt to rip religion at the cost of the poor people who were murdered on 9/11, I'm out.


The difference between a prisoner and those that jumped are enormous and no where near a comparison. Your last comment is almost as ridiculous.

Anyone else?
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 2:15:37 PM EST
Strictly up the the Almighty.
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 2:21:43 PM EST
Those people were in no way committing suicide. I'm sure they waited as long as possible to jump, and there have been cases where people have survived extreme falls. So their motivation was to escape the extreme heat and flame, and they may have hoped for some small chance of miraculous survival.

Not a suicide by anyone's definition.
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 2:28:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By Shane333:
Considering the fact that those people were faced with certain, and potentially very painful death, I refrain from trying to judge their decision. I trust in the Lord's mercy on this subject.


I could of not of said it better......


Link Posted: 9/20/2007 4:23:50 PM EST
By the way, I do not believe that suicide is an unpardonable sin.

Jesus demonstrated by healing all and never making anyone sick that sickness is an enemy (I know some will disagree).

Does anyone believe that if a person did not have the faith to be healed of cancer that they would go to hell for loosing a battle to this physical sickness?

Of course not.

So why do people feel that when a person looses their battle with mental illness and commit suicide that it is an unpardonable sin?

The Bible commands us to submit to every ordinance of man so it is a sin to drive 80 mph in a 55 mph zone. If a person crashes and dies suddenly while driving 80, they committed a sin unto death and died without having time to repent of this sin.

Do they go to hell for causing thier own death through an unrepented sin?

It is all just works based religious tradition. The ONLY factor that determines salvation is what you did with the revelation that you received of Jesus being Lord.

If a person commits suicide after making Jesus their Lord they are still saved.

If a person never commits suicide and dies of old age never having made Jesus their Lord they are lost.

This should be Christrianity 101, but Jesus spoke true when He said that religion teaches the traditions of men as the commandments of God and end up making the Word of God of none effect.

Salvaton is never about what we did or did not do, it is about what Jesus did for us all and our response to what He did for us all (including suicides).

John
Link Posted: 9/20/2007 4:34:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2007 4:43:20 PM EST by 1911Custom]

Originally Posted By FightingHellfish:
Those people were in no way committing suicide. I'm sure they waited as long as possible to jump, and there have been cases where people have survived extreme falls. So their motivation was to escape the extreme heat and flame, and they may have hoped for some small chance of miraculous survival.

Not a suicide by anyone's definition.


Exactly. With a room full of searing black smoke, to STAY in the room is certain death. To leap is also certain death, but you will have extended your life (by only seconds), not ended it sooner.

As for religious judgements by strict followers........ that's what got us into this crap in the first place.

Edited to subtract...........{infuriating statements meant to start an argument}
Link Posted: 9/21/2007 5:00:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By Kratos:
If they received Him as Lord and then jumped off the building, they are saved.

If they rejected Him as Lord and they jumped off the building then they are lost.

HUGE +1
Link Posted: 9/21/2007 5:12:09 AM EST
In the Torah it is stated that it is a Sin to allow someone to kill you. (if you can do otherwise, that is)


Those people that jumped refused to let Muhammad Atta kill them, although he tried.

They took their own lives into their own hands and refused to die a slow and painful death.


Practically speaking, their suicides were better than the alternative. Religiously speaking (if you're of a religion that cares about the Torah/Tanakh/Old Testament/The First Bible/et al), they're covered, too.
Link Posted: 9/21/2007 1:53:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By Shane333:
Considering the fact that those people were faced with certain, and potentially very painful death, I refrain from trying to judge their decision. I trust in the Lord's mercy on this subject.


Ditto.
Link Posted: 9/22/2007 9:38:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By Kratos:
By the way, I do not believe that suicide is an unpardonable sin.

Jesus demonstrated by healing all and never making anyone sick that sickness is an enemy (I know some will disagree).

Does anyone believe that if a person did not have the faith to be healed of cancer that they would go to hell for loosing a battle to this physical sickness?

Of course not.

So why do people feel that when a person looses their battle with mental illness and commit suicide that it is an unpardonable sin?

The Bible commands us to submit to every ordinance of man so it is a sin to drive 80 mph in a 55 mph zone. If a person crashes and dies suddenly while driving 80, they committed a sin unto death and died without having time to repent of this sin.

Do they go to hell for causing thier own death through an unrepented sin?

It is all just works based religious tradition. The ONLY factor that determines salvation is what you did with the revelation that you received of Jesus being Lord.

If a person commits suicide after making Jesus their Lord they are still saved.

If a person never commits suicide and dies of old age never having made Jesus their Lord they are lost.

This should be Christrianity 101, but Jesus spoke true when He said that religion teaches the traditions of men as the commandments of God and end up making the Word of God of none effect.

Salvaton is never about what we did or did not do, it is about what Jesus did for us all and our response to what He did for us all (including suicides).

John


Very well put. Christ did say that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (or Christ's offer of salvation), not suicide, was the only unpardonable sin.
Link Posted: 9/22/2007 8:28:19 PM EST
I'd never even thought about that, but I don't think it'll cause any of them trouble at all.
Link Posted: 9/22/2007 8:33:27 PM EST
it could be argued that most did not leap for conscious suicidal reasons, but for subconscious normal reaction to extreme heat and toxic breathing air.
Link Posted: 9/24/2007 1:06:36 PM EST
Its not how you die, but how you lived, if they knew Jesus as their Lord that is what counts.
Link Posted: 9/24/2007 1:23:33 PM EST
I always hated watching people jump from the WTC, all those jumpers got a pass, no matter what belief they were, they were murdered by those 19 c#$ksuckers, and come judgement day all hell is gonna break loose on those evil people everywhere.
Link Posted: 9/24/2007 3:54:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By cobra-ak:
I always hated watching people jump from the WTC, all those jumpers got a pass, no matter what belief they were, they were murdered by those 19 c#$ksuckers, and come judgement day all hell is gonna break loose on those evil people everywhere.


They were dead either way. They saw something we have not seen, and they do get a pass.
Link Posted: 9/26/2007 3:13:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shane333:
Considering the fact that those people were faced with certain, and potentially very painful death, I refrain from trying to judge their decision. I trust in the Lord's mercy on this subject.

Kinda sums up my thoughts on the subject.
Link Posted: 10/3/2007 1:31:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By Kratos:
I definately would qualify as a zealot by most people's standard and I would say that He will deal with these people the same as everyone else. According to what they did with Christ when the Spirit revealed Him to them.

If they received Him as Lord and then jumped off the building, they are saved.

If they rejected Him as Lord and they jumped off the building then they are lost.

Salvation is not about works or our successes or failures in life, it is about Jesus.


+1

Link Posted: 10/3/2007 3:17:41 AM EST
None of those people choose to die that day. None of them had any desire to commit suicide.
Everyone of them would have taken the stairs if they could.

I think it's a dumb question.
Link Posted: 10/3/2007 9:05:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By pv74:

Originally Posted By Kratos:
I definately would qualify as a zealot by most people's standard and I would say that He will deal with these people the same as everyone else. According to what they did with Christ when the Spirit revealed Him to them.

If they received Him as Lord and then jumped off the building, they are saved.

If they rejected Him as Lord and they jumped off the building then they are lost.

Salvation is not about works or our successes or failures in life, it is about Jesus.


+1


+1
Link Posted: 10/3/2007 9:12:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By Kratos:
I definately would qualify as a zealot by most people's standard and I would say that He will deal with these people the same as everyone else. According to what they did with Christ when the Spirit revealed Him to them.

If they received Him as Lord and then jumped off the building, they are saved.

If they rejected Him as Lord and they jumped off the building then they are lost.

Salvation is not about works or our successes or failures in life, it is about Jesus.


I agree.

Link Posted: 10/3/2007 9:23:08 AM EST
Who cares what strict "religionists" think, or even what a preacher has to say. Judgement is God's and no other's.

If you want an answer, ask Him. He might require you to wait until ya'll are face to face to tell you though.
Link Posted: 10/3/2007 9:27:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2007 9:30:55 AM EST by thinsley]

Originally Posted By Kletzenklueffer:
Who cares what strict "religionists" think, or even what a preacher has to say. Judgement is God's and no other's.

If you want an answer, ask Him. He might require you to wait until ya'll are face to face to tell you though.


HAHAH! That's good!

Sometimes when my kids ask "life" questions I can't answer, I tell them to ask God. I also sometimes tell them, they may have to wait until they see him. Good one.
Link Posted: 10/3/2007 9:48:40 AM EST
This answer is strictly up to Him, but I don't think that He would have a problem with it.
Link Posted: 10/3/2007 9:50:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By Shane333:
Considering the fact that those people were faced with certain, and potentially very painful death, I refrain from trying to judge their decision. I trust in the Lord's mercy on this subject.


Shane really hit the nail on the head with this comment.

Based on my understanding of the Redemption and Ressurection I can't see any reason why these people would be denied the Kingdom of God for their actions in this circumstance.
Link Posted: 10/4/2007 8:10:33 AM EST
The jumpers got a free pass to heaven no matter their religion, listen to the explosion and debris about halfway through the footage the murdering @#$%^&ers WILL face judgement my foul language censored only out of respect to my religious compatriots who would be offended.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 7:44:44 PM EST
Who can claim to truly know the Lords mind?

That said doctrine states that intent is paramount staying in fire=death for sure attempting to escape with slim hope the only other possible way to try and survive


OP, I think you are trying to stir crap up
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:45:16 AM EST
what if there is no such thing an an unpardonable sin....i know this can be taken to incredible extremes (Atta, Hitler, Manson...).....but God made us....he's knows the battles we face every day....he knows how fallible we are, what if he just takes everyones soul (what he gave us that seperates us from other creatures) back to be with him when our lives here end?
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