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Posted: 8/13/2007 7:03:35 PM EDT
[#1]
Its not that high. Most have to qualify 80 or 85 % to pass, depends on the state. I had to do it here, got a 90% and it was only like 48 or 50 rounds total top score was a possible 240 IIRC |
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Posted: 8/13/2007 8:23:09 PM EDT
[#2]
Here the Louisiana POST qualification course. It is shot basically on a modified B27 silhouette target that only uses the outermost ring, no internal rings.
OFFICIAL POST FIREARMS COURSE STAGE I *25 yards **6 rds. standing, barricade, strong hand 6 rds. kneeling, barricade, strong hand 6 rds. standing, barricade, strong hand or off-hand, off-side (90 seconds) *NOTE: Movement to barricade required, maximum distance 5 yards **NOTE: With verbal commands (POLICE! Dont Move!) STAGE II 7 yards 6 rds. kneeling (10 seconds) *12 rds. standing (25 seconds) 6 rds. off-hand only (8 seconds) *NOTE: Mandatory reloading for all weapons after first six (6) rounds STAGE III 4 yards 3 rds. one- or two-hands (3 seconds) Instinct shooting position from holster. 3 rds. one- or two-hands (3 seconds) Instinct shooting position from ready-gun position String II: Repeat I STAGE IV 2 yards *2 rds., one- or two-hands (2 seconds) Close quarter shooting position from holster. Repeat twice *NOTE: Movement to rear required - one step TARGET: Possible points 120 Qualification 96 = 80% Scoring: Inside ring 2 points Outside ring 1 point Minimum score for SWAT is 110 out of 120. |
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Posted: 8/13/2007 8:31:13 PM EDT
[#3]
I knew someone was going to claim that IDPA is training.
 Don't know about anyone else, my quals go like this. (From memory. I may be off on some of the round counts.) (All start from snapped level III holster. Reloads are done as needed) 3 yards, 6 rounds, 3 seconds. 3 yards, 2 rounds, 2 seconds. ( repeated for a total of 8 rounds, head shots) 7 yards, 12 rounds, 20 seconds, 6 rounds weak hand. The only stage with a mandated mag change. (that pisses off the high cap guys)  15 yards, 12 rounds, 15 seconds, kneeling from a standing position. 15 yards, 8 rounds in 4-2 round stages, 3 seconds each. (head shots) 25 yards, 15 rounds, 30 seconds. Kneeling. Since I carry a P220 that's a LOT of mag changes.  Passing is 90% minimum. Our targets are solid black with subdued scoring rings. Barricades and moving while shooting are in there somewhere. We really need to make it harder, lot's of folks max the course. Keep in mind this is just qualification. It comes at the end of familiarization firing which is 500 rounds and one day of classroom. (use of force law, legal updates, the sort of stuff you need to know when you are not shooting for a game.  )
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Posted: 8/13/2007 8:34:13 PM EDT
[#4]
They work for the most part in a way that will keep them all on the payroll and filling a slot.
Don't be fooled, they are not all Gunfighters. A few maybe but most are just doing a job, just like the guy at "Mc Whatever". |
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Posted: 8/13/2007 8:35:34 PM EDT
[#5]
An interesting comment I hear from a lot of local LEO's is how they always make sure to never get a perfect score, because they don't want it to be held against them if they are involved in an accidental shooting of some sort, be it a missed target of ND.
I think its mostly a BS excuse to make up for missed shots, but around here at least some seem to think a history of perfect qualifications can hurt them some day in court. |
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Posted: 8/13/2007 8:37:47 PM EDT
[#6]
It was brought up in my shoot. The lawyer spent half a day on it. My dept does not keep track of percentages for this very reason. You are only listed as "pass/fail" |
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Posted: 8/13/2007 8:40:59 PM EDT
[#7]
Here's our test...
I dont remember which targets we use. They are blue silhouettes with a circle around the heart/lung area and a smaller circle in the head. Inside the circles is two points, outside the circles is one point and outside the silhouette is zero points for a possible score of 100 pts. 25 yrds from ready: fire 5 rounds in 10 seconds 15 yrds from ready: fire 10 rounds in 10 seconds 10 yrds from ready: fire 10 rounds in 10 seconds w/ a reload 10 yrds from holster: fire 10 rounds in 10 seconds w/ a reload 7 yrds from holster: fire 10 rounds in 10 seconds w/ a reload 5 yrds from holster: fire 5 rounds in 5 seconds w/ one hand Super easy. I think it was designed mainly to make sure everyone can, at the minimum, operate the weapon; not to determine if everyone can fight with a handgun. We have excellent firearms instructors and we get really good weapons training via voluntary in-service classes. Needless to say you see the same few faces in the "tactical" class every year. |
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Posted: 8/13/2007 8:41:55 PM EDT
[#8]
Interesting. I wonder how some ambulance chaser, coupled with a liberal judge, would react to being told such statistics were not being kept to protect officers from/in lawsuits? With the right judge, that could bring a shitstorm. |
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Posted: 8/13/2007 8:43:29 PM EDT
[#9]
This is basically true. LOTS of cops do not train with their sidearm past qualification. I try to go and shoot as often as possible.....ignore your shooting skills and they will go away. Having said that when I shoot/qualify I dont even think about scores or points. I think about how fast and smooth my draw is (I practice my draw FREQUENTLY so that is stays in muscle memory) grabbing a quick front sight to the center mass of my target and let the HP's fly. I shoot to save my life and I do it as quickly as I can accurately. Im in no way saying that I spray and pray, Im all about center mass of my target. We have guys who use every second of their time during qualification to make a nice pretty tightly grouped shots slowfiring and carefully taking aim.........we all know the mechanics. Great, fine. I have also seen these same officers when we do stress drills their targets look like a shotgun blast at 50yds. The sidearm on a police officer is a useless and cumbersom tool to carry around all day long. Until the very moment when it is most crucial and you needed to be trained with it properly to deploy it and save your life or the life of another. |
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Posted: 8/13/2007 8:44:05 PM EDT
[#10]
No problem at all. It protects the CITY too. Write it into policy and everything would be just fine. |
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Posted: 8/13/2007 8:48:37 PM EDT
[#11]
We qualify at 50-25-15-5 yards, All timed and must get 80% to qualify..
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Posted: 8/13/2007 8:55:59 PM EDT
[#12]
I can't speak for every department, but ours runs 4 department qualification/training sessions a year. One is a state qualification (7,15 and 25) which at one time was based off a 50 round 100 point qualiciation. Now, it is just pass/fail. By department standard, you must have a minimum of 85% to pass. The other 3 sessions are CQC, deployment from automobile, multiple target engagement, blah blah blah. We had a civilian once tell us they we could not shoot, so we asked him to shoot. We put our newest officer against him, needless to say, he did not have much to say and left the range.
Now, I agree most officers could care less about being able to shoot, but not all. |
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Posted: 8/13/2007 9:10:52 PM EDT
[#13]
In my agency, our quals consist of firing one round that is retrieved from our breast pocket. So long as we can load it and make it go bang, we're good to go.
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Posted: 8/13/2007 9:22:17 PM EDT
[#14]
we qual twice a year and the qual course is usually changed up each time. it's a 50 rd qual that's scored hit and miss. most of our officers do fairly well. we always put in things like movement and mag changes, but don't get too complicated.
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Posted: 8/13/2007 9:25:20 PM EDT
[#15]
One thing non-LE always get confused about.
Qualification is to prove to the lawyers that you have met the minimum standard mandated by the state. Qual is not training anymore than a license renewal test is driving the Indianapolis 500. |
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Posted: 8/13/2007 9:27:13 PM EDT
[#16]
Amen, Qualification is a static measurement of ability on a prescribed course. It is not training. |
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Posted: 8/13/2007 10:12:56 PM EDT
[#17]
Just like IDPA and USPSA are at best practice instead of training.
PDs really ought to ask more of people. You'd be surprised what you can get simply by raising the standard. Ask more of people, and they will deliver more. Ken Good wrote a hell of an article about that. I have it saved on my other computer, some day I will put it up for ya'll, its a good read. BTW, Department of Energy nuke couriers can straight up shoot. And thats a fact. I know that we here are enthusiasts, but I would like to see a comparison of shooting ability between an average officer and an average gun owner. Non-enthusiasts. Believe me, if you think cops can't shoot, ya'll haven't seen much of the rusty-.38-in-a-nightstand crowd. |
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Posted: 8/13/2007 10:28:49 PM EDT
[#18]
This is exactly it. I am sure guys on car boards criticize officers driving abilities and think that every officer should be a Gordon clone able to rip around atrack at 200+ MPH. Qual courses here vary. Minimum of 80 % to pass. We use several COF everytime we are at the range, and then tosss in some COF that emphasize whatever skills or topics were covered in a block of instruction at the beginning of the day. Edit: we use the FBI Q target. Did away with the B-series targets years ago ...some agency out west....I think it was Chicago...had a minority officers association that had a lawsuit that accused the agency of training its guys to shoot at black people by using black silhouettes...to me the easy answer there would be to switch to a B series target that wasn't black, but oh well. |
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Posted: 8/13/2007 10:34:52 PM EDT
[#19]
Every state is different and some cities are then again different.
Most places now don't keep scores at all. It is either pass or fail. OK uses the OK-CL target and goes from the 3ft to the 50 and shoots 20 times. 15 shots minimum qualification. 1 shot to the head from 3 yrds. However they just changed it to make it easier. Max 25 yards now.
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Posted: 8/13/2007 10:54:54 PM EDT
[#20]
We used to shoot out to 50. The reality is that most police shootings take place at conversational distances. Courts require that the COF and overall training reflect what the officer is going to be facing. So the ability to get that gun out quickly and rounds on target is heavily emphasized here. We have entire COF that don't go past 10 yards, but the rounds have to be specifically on target for the specific scenario... head shots, pelvic girdle, etc. Thats not to say that an occasional COF couldn't include a few rounds at longer distances just so the officer can see what they and the weapon are capable of at that distance. |
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Posted: 8/13/2007 10:55:12 PM EDT
[#21]
Shoot wildly at moving cars. Pass if they explode, fail if they don't stop, high recommendation if car hits a ramp and does cool slow mo flip and land in water...
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Posted: 8/13/2007 10:57:11 PM EDT
[#22]
You are correct most gunfights are short but, A couple of years ago we had a guy in our city shooting people with an M1. He was taken out with a 65 yard pistol shot. I was in favor of keeping the 2 50 yards shots during quals. Oh well. |
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Posted: 8/13/2007 11:02:58 PM EDT
[#23]
Can you give some more details? I'm always looking for any stories about officer-involved shootings. Geography of shooting area, did responding officers have access to long guns on scene, etc.There was the case of the USAF guy a few years ago who took a 100 yard shot with his M9 to take out a guy wielding an SKS shooting people on base, but such incidents are really rare. Our guys carry shotties, supervisors carry rifles, and I wouldn't expect them to use the handgun at that distance as primary weapon if they had access to the long gun. |
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Posted: 8/13/2007 11:05:01 PM EDT
[#24]
Long range shooting is an important skill. I was standing in a Wal-Mart today, and looking from the Deli to the garden center it was easily over 100m.
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Posted: 8/13/2007 11:54:18 PM EDT
[#25]
I took a carbine class with some police officers from St Joe Mo. a few years ago
They were discussing the shooting of a Officer Brad Arn Officer Arn was killed by a guy with a Mak90 The officer that eventally killed the gunman shot him at about 65 yds with a .45 of some sort IIRC I tried to find some info on google but it is all pretty vauge Memorial site for Officer Arn |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 2:18:35 AM EDT
[#26]
We fire 36 rounds at a variety of distances at moving targets. Score is simple pass fail due to some silly case law.
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Posted: 8/14/2007 2:19:35 AM EDT
[#27]
In my agency we qualify monthly with handgun and rifle. yearly with shotgun. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 2:22:11 AM EDT
[#28]
we used to keep scores. then there was a civil suit in which one of the officers who shot the BG had always shot perfect scores in qualification. The BG family claimed that since the cop was documented as such an outstanding shot he could have simply shot the gun out of the BG hand. The jury agreed and awarded the BG family a large judgement. After that many agencies went to a simple pass fail with no recordeded score. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 2:25:47 AM EDT
[#29]
IM inbound |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:11:56 AM EDT
[#30]
Pass / fail is the norm in most states. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:33:26 AM EDT
[#31]
Revolver,
Six shots, 7 yards, low light (welding goggles) - No score, just for familiarzation. Six shots, 15 yards, low light (welding goggles) - No score. Six shots standing, strong hand, 3 yards, reload, six shots, weak hand - 60 points for all shots in the gray area of target, 30 second time limit. Six shots standing, strong hand, seven yards, reload, six shots weak hand seven yards - Score 60 points, 30 second time limit. Six shots standing, strong hand, 15 yards, reload, six shots strong hand standing - score 60 points, 45 second time limit Six shots kneeling strong hand, 15 yards, reload, six shots strong hand kneeling - score 60 points, 45 second time limit. All shooting double action on S&W model 65 revolvers using standard duty load, 38 Special 158 grain lead round nose. Total score 480 points. 70% or better to pass. Pathetic, isn't it? Shotgun, Four shots rifled slugs, 15 yards Four shots rifled slugs, 25 yards 70% hits to qualify. The only time we are to use rifled slugs is during qualification. On duty, the load is #4 buckshot. 00 if you are the Elite C.E.R.T. The DOC doesn't want us to use too much deadly force when we're using deadly force. Rifle, Five shots, bench rest, 100 yards reload five shots, bench rest, 100 yards - score 100 points. Five shots, prone, 100 yards, reload, five shots, prone, 100 yards - score 100 points. Five shots, kneeling 50 yards, reload, five shots, kneeling 50 yards - score 100 points. Five shots, standing hasty sling, 50 yards, reload, five shots, standing no sling, 50 yards - score 100 points. The rifle is a Remington Model seven in .223 with a 3x9 scope. Ammo is American Eagle 55 grain FMJ. Here's hoping that the DOC doesn't figure out that this round could fragment. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 5:01:26 AM EDT
[#32]
Yup. I've trained with a few glow worms, and they were exceptionally good with their guns. You should see them run a rolling point building clearing exercise...it's like poetry in motion. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 6:08:18 AM EDT
[#33]
When I was going through WMD first responder training we did a section on those guys. They are bad ass. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 6:14:04 AM EDT
[#34]
All depends on who you get from DOE. The group I trained with had 1 guy that was good with a carbine and pistol. The rest left much to be desired. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 6:27:15 AM EDT
[#35]
I agree that qualifications for LEO's should be tougher.
But, I have seen other BOS treat their duty sidearms like a carpenter treats his hammer. AS a TOOL, not as THE instrument to save their lives. Hell, some of the people in my Agency (we qual four times a year) only clean and lube their weapons during qualifications. And they wonder why they get slide stoppages, stovepipes, etc...  How about cleaning, lubing and swapping out your magazines once a month, dumbass? Hell, when I was issued my duty sidearm, it came with six magazines. One in the weapon, and two in the mag pouches. Three to keep unloaded and swap out once a month. I went ahead and bought mag springs from Brownells to replace the crappy ones H&K threw in there. Twelve mag high quality springs cost me about 30 bucks, including shipping. I think that is cheap when my life, other Officers and the public's lives are at stake. After I swap out the mags, I swap out the springs in the old mags to let the others rest. Figure it couldn't hurt. And I have never had a problem during quals. I have shot perfect, but as was stated earlier, I will not do so on a regular basis, because our scores are recorded. We had a Union Rep tell us the same story, that your qual scores are admissible as evidence, and will definitely be used against you.
Then that self same scenario awards the scumbag's family several million in damages and the Officer's reputation and career are ruined. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 6:32:51 AM EDT
[#36]
The guys I trained with were the SRT team for a nuclear weapons storage site.... |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 6:35:16 AM EDT
[#37]
I dont remember all of the stages or times, we shot from 25 yards up to 3 yards, 50 rounds 500 possible points 400 to qualify.
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Posted: 8/14/2007 6:37:33 AM EDT
[#38]
I have known several of the guys at Ft. Smith for a while now, they are all highly trained and very good at what they do. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 8:02:29 AM EDT
[#39]
That's a lot more than any cops I know of, including the ones in my family. Not that it's a bad thing. 
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Posted: 8/14/2007 8:17:36 AM EDT
[#40]
1. 50 feet, six shots, IIRC the time limit is like 20 seconds but very few shoot over 10
2. Draw from holster, 6 shots from strong hand, reload, 6 shots weak hand, in 12 seconds 3. Low light, hold flashlight while shooting, three two shot bursts 4. Multiple targets while moving, start at 3 feet, draw, three rounds in middle target, while backing up, three more rounds in middle target, 3 in right target, 3 in left target (all but the first three while walking backwards) 5. Barricade, shoot two targets off to the right of barricade while behind cover, then switch to weak hand, shoot two targets to left while behind cover. 6. Engage two targets while walking to your right, reload, engage two targets while walking to your left. I think its right at 60 rounds. The course I shot in the academy was much better, IMO. We did some harder stuff there, thats when I really learned to shoot. Our qualifications and firearms training aren't that great, IMO. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 8:24:00 AM EDT
[#41]
If I'm running a 100 when I get to the final phase I will pull one to two on purpose. When we used B27's I shoot the head, no scoring. ETA: http://www.apostc.state.al.us/Forms/tabid/54/Default.aspx post form 5, FBI Q target, state requires 70% and yearly. Department is semi-annual requires and 80%. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 8:33:33 AM EDT
[#42]
We actually have a number of local LEO's at our IPSC matches, and they shoot VERY well.. they are, of course, the exception, as they are the ones who actually show up and practice. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 8:39:35 AM EDT
[#43]
Ditto for the IPSC and IDPA matches here. Training is good, but if you don't practice you will not perfect the skills you trained to learn. Practice is good, but not without the training to do it right. What's the big deal?
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Posted: 8/14/2007 8:41:25 AM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 8/14/2007 9:09:27 AM EDT
[#45]
. doubletap.
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Posted: 8/14/2007 10:49:28 AM EDT
[#46]
Hell, I dont even clean my duty pistol every month. It gets cleaned after it is fired; thats it. Rotating mags is a non-issue to me as well. Now if I carried something like a 1911 I might rotate mags, but that isnt an issue here. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 12:39:23 PM EDT
[#47]
Brother,
Some of these people have NEVER swapped out their mags. I have been an LEO for 4 1/2 years, and some of the guys I started with still have not swapped out the mags. I know I am a bit retentive when it comes to maintaining my duty sidearm, but my life is at stake. Do you guys clean your AR's after shooting? Do you make sure it is lubed properly before you put it in the gun case/rifle vault/patrol car? Some of the duty weapons I have seen, the night sights were covered in crud, and when we night qualified, they couldn't pass until they scrubbed the gunk off the sights. |
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Posted: 8/14/2007 3:53:32 PM EDT
[#48]
Sorry, but why exactly do you think its needed to swap a mag out after 4 years? They are more durable than you apparently give them credit for. Particularly the Glock line...they are pretty much indestructable. |
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Posted: 8/15/2007 6:19:34 AM EDT
[#49]
Maybe the Glocks mags are, but the ones we get for our duty H&K's aren't. After 6 months the mag springs get weak, and during quals, they are suffering stovepipe jams. Constantly. They allow them to clear the weapon (they stop the firing line) and they get to continue. You don't stop the firing line!!! To me, that is an invitation to disaster. If they do not teach (and they do not) a proper clearing drill (tap, rack and ready will not clear a stovepipe in the H&K) of sliding your hand along the top of the slide (to get rid of the stovepiped round) you are just asking for trouble. I suffered those the after the first six months, and I learned (and practiced) the proper clearing procedures (with snap caps) so that I would not perform the same asinine technique of raising my hand in order to have the firing line stopped so I can qualify. Simply swapping out your mags or the mag springs will stop that situation from EVER happening. I can recall an old maxim my Dad taught me, prepare for the worst and hope for the best. I also remember something from my old Boy Scout days, Be Prepared. If I am drawing my duty weapon, the Shit Has Hit the Fan, and I won't have the time or luxury of worrying whether my sidearm is functioning at 100%, I am going to have to ASSUME that it is. And we all know what assume is!!! Hell, the new weapon is the H&K P2000 - we were notified to NOT DROP THE MAGAZINE ON A HARD SURFACE AS THEY HAVE A TENDENCY TO MALFUNCTION AFTERWARDS. Very reassuring. Especially when the range you qualify at is on concrete or asphalt. You are supposed to inspect the magazine for any damage, but most of the guys would not know what to look for. The base plates will get knocked out of alignment, or will crack. Not trying to start an argument here, I just think that if your life (and the lives of others) depend on you, that you would take care of your equipment. We work in a hot, humid and very dusty environment on the Southern Border trying to keep dope and illegals out of this country. Your equipment gets abused and damaged. I take care of mine, especially with the higher number of violent encounters here. Have a good one, Brother. And watch your Six. |
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Posted: 8/15/2007 6:58:05 AM EDT
[#50]
My USP mags are 7 yrs old and still work fine. They stay loaded and get used often.
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