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Posted: 11/3/2009 9:22:54 AM EST
How did we avoid socialism during the Great Depression? or didn't we?
As the voting population of unemployed or downtrodden overtakes the rest of us, how did we avoid the path to socialism during the Great Depression?
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 9:24:26 AM EST
The short answer: congress worked hard to keep FDR from packing the SCOTUS, and the SCOTUS struck down a lot of socialist policies that were put in place.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 9:25:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By WildApple:
How did we avoid socialism during the Great Depression? or didn't we?
As the voting population of unemployed or downtrodden overtakes the rest of us, how did we avoid the path to socialism during the Great Depression?


What do you think FDR created with Social Security, the New Deal, and all the other programs?

And what we saw a continuation of in the 1960's with welfare?


Hey, we're here.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 9:25:56 AM EST
We didn't
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 9:26:11 AM EST
We didn't.

See the "new deal".
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 9:26:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By max229:
We didn't.

See the "new deal".


Link Posted: 11/3/2009 9:26:45 AM EST
Great question. I think SCOTUS saves us too but I would not over look that the avg. citizen liked the free market, private property and the sense of hope that being an American has.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 9:27:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 10:06:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By LoBrau:
The short answer: congress worked hard to keep FDR from packing the SCOTUS, and the SCOTUS struck down a lot of socialist policies that were put in place.

They also let a bunch of them stand.

We were placed on our current trajectory during the great depression.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 10:08:25 AM EST
Originally Posted By wingnutx:

Originally Posted By LoBrau:
The short answer: congress worked hard to keep FDR from packing the SCOTUS, and the SCOTUS struck down a lot of socialist policies that were put in place.

They also let a bunch of them stand.

We were placed on our current trajectory during the great depression.


True, but we'd be a LOT further along the road to complete socialism if they hadn't done anything.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 10:18:50 AM EST
SCOTUS caved 100%. No anti-New Deal/pro-Constitution ruling survived the court-packing threat, which never even came close to a vote in either house.

We made a good healthy beginning of socialism and near-complete retirement of what FDR traitorously called the "horse and buggy Constitution" during FDR's tenure as Maximum Commissar.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 11:31:13 AM EST
After striking down numerous of FDR's programs, SCOTUS capitulated to some because FDR threatened to expand the Court from 9 to 15 members and pack it with pro-New Deal justices.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 11:52:53 AM EST
FNMA and FMAC are "Depression babies". They're what brought down our financial system in the last few years, more than anything else did.

Originally Posted By Lawyerman:
After striking down numerous of FDR's programs, SCOTUS capitulated to some because FDR threatened to expand the Court from 9 to 15 members and pack it with pro-New Deal justices.


My Con Law prof emphasized to us that it wasn't so much a capitulation as one judge slowly changing his beliefs, causing the court to go from 5-4 against FDR's socialist policies to 5-4 in favor of them. He made a good case for it being the judge's own choice rather than caving in to pressure.

Link Posted: 11/3/2009 11:55:08 AM EST
Same thing here, in 1919 the Dutch goverment implemented gun control to keep arms out of the hands of "the evil socialist's" as our paliment said at the time.
That worked well then .........now I can enjoy socialism AND gun controll together
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 11:57:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By Bhart89:
Great question. I think SCOTUS saves us too but I would not over look that the avg. citizen liked the free market, private property and the sense of hope that being an American has.


Private property, sense of hope: yes.

However, there was a great suspicion of capitalism/free market after the Crash - much like what you're hearing these days. I've read a few histories of the period and the similarity between editorials (admittedly not necessarily representative of "the avg citizen") and headlines of the '30s and '08-'09 is remarkable. Much like now, there was general support for "reigning in the excesses of Wall Street" and denying opportunities for speculators. Further, there was a significant element of support for socialist/communist ideals prior to and during that period. Those sentiments always seem to be exacerbated during down economic times.

Two of my favorite histories of the period are "FDR's Folly" by Jim Powell and "The Forgotten Man" by Amity Shlaes.

If you're interested in an intellectual exercise, take a look at Marx's original Communist Manifesto and see how many of his goals have been implemented by the United States government in one form or another. I'm reminded of a quote from another interesting book ("Mig Pilot" by John Barron) where Belenko (the pilot who defected from the USSR) was asking about the homeless shelters and welfare programs and found out that the government provided for their sustenance: "The US has achieved 'true communism.'"

Don't forget the Democrats routinely score major points when they play out the class warfare scenarios. Many (most?) Americans are not immune to the sense that "rich folks" are not deserving of their wealth (almost as if the capitalist economy were a zero sum or closed system). Marx would feel right at home.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 11:58:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By Jacketch:
We didn't


+1
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 11:58:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By WildApple:
How did we avoid socialism during the Great Depression? or didn't we?
As the voting population of unemployed or downtrodden overtakes the rest of us, how did we avoid the path to socialism during the Great Depression?


Easy. Americans wanted to work for a living and not live at the expense of others. Now it's the opposite.

And we DIDN'T avoid socialism, thanks to FDR. FDR not only implemented a bunch of socialist bullshit, but he also made the Depression worse and longer lasting than it would have been otherwise.

You know, kind of what Obama is doing now.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 11:59:05 AM EST
We didn't
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 11:59:21 AM EST
Originally Posted By WildApple:
How did we avoid socialism during the Great Depression? ...


We didn't.

[/thread]

Link Posted: 11/3/2009 12:03:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By LoBrau:
The short answer: congress worked hard to keep FDR from packing the SCOTUS, and the SCOTUS struck down a lot of socialist policies that were put in place.


Correct.

The Supreme Court was perhaps the only relief from some of Roosevelt's more radical ideas, so much of a barrier to his rampant attemts to socialize America that Roosevelt publicly tried to declare the older judges incompetent, and appoint an additional 14 Supreme Court judges to "lessen the workload" of the Supreme Court.

Congress saw thru this patent attempt to suborn the Judicial Branh of the Federal Government, and blocked the atempt, so Roosevelt attempted and succeeded in vilifying the Congress to the point that by the end of his four terms, the newly elected Congress proved to be nothing more than a rubber stamp for Roosevelt's socialist dreams.

I am not sure why the Supreme Court has not been utilized in this way so far into Obama's term of office, perhaps those with the financial wherewithal are waiting until more egregious violations of the US Constitution, such as Cap and Trade and Universal Health Care pass.

Link Posted: 11/3/2009 12:12:10 PM EST
Social Security
Medicare
Interstate Highways

All socialist. We've been there for some time now.

Welfare doesn't count because it's a State's mandate.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 12:14:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/3/2009 12:48:30 PM EST by MonkeyGrip]
Perhaps in part, it was at least delayed, with violence.

Here are only two examples from the local, very rural (at the time ) area:

Centralia Massacre

Everett Massacre



There were many more similar incidents around the country and world, and although this was prior to the 30s,
I suspect a tone was set to some extent.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 12:15:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jacketch:
We didn't

This.

/thread
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 12:22:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/3/2009 12:25:44 PM EST by Ryan1021]
Didn't FDR try to add like 3 more justices to the Supreme Court to get his laws through?
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 12:23:17 PM EST

Originally Posted By eracer:
Social Security
Medicare
Interstate Highways

All socialist. We've been there for some time now.

Welfare doesn't count because it's a State's mandate.

I wouldn't count them either because the government has a constitutional mandate to provide roads.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 12:28:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By Ryan1021:
Didn't FDR try to add like 3 more justices to the Supreme Court to get his laws through?


Yes, the SC put a damper on his movement for a while, but had to bow down or risk losing everything.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 12:31:00 PM EST
How did we stop what? The "New Deal" pretty much put us directly on to this course and basically created the whole entitlement mentality and the whole government can and should fix everything belief.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 12:31:58 PM EST
We didn't.
Link Posted: 11/3/2009 12:48:27 PM EST


Link Posted: 11/4/2009 8:47:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/4/2009 8:48:45 AM EST by eracer]

Originally Posted By max229:

Originally Posted By eracer:
Social Security
Medicare
Interstate Highways

All socialist. We've been there for some time now.

Welfare doesn't count because it's a State's mandate.

I wouldn't count them either because the government has a constitutional mandate to provide roads.

The Commerce Clause gives Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce. The Interstate Highways were mandated under the umbralla of the DOD (one of the reasons there has to be a straight section of highway every five miles of highway is for its use as an emergency runway in times of war.) They couldn't be built under the Commerce Clause of the Constitution, so it was done under the guise of national security.
Link Posted: 11/4/2009 8:50:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By max229:

Originally Posted By eracer:
Social Security
Medicare
Interstate Highways

All socialist. We've been there for some time now.

Welfare doesn't count because it's a State's mandate.

I wouldn't count them either because the government has a constitutional mandate to provide roads.


Postal roads––-nothing else.
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