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Posted: 8/21/2004 11:30:01 AM EST
My uberr liberal stepmother quoted something she heard once: "Swift boats were the third most dangerous thing you could do over there, after point man and platoon leader". I kinda want to know how SF, Rangers, Snipers, LRRPs, tunnel rats and EOD techs didn't make it onto the list ahead of the "Brown Water Navy".
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:33:43 AM EST
Uh, my guess would be SOG, considering at one point in time during the Vietnam war they had a 100% casualty rate.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:34:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
My uberr liberal stepmother quoted something she heard once: "Swift boats were the third most dangerous thing you could do over there, after point man and platoon leader". I kinda want to know how SF, Rangers, Snipers, LRRPs, tunnel rats and EOD techs didn't make it onto the list ahead of the "Brown Water Navy".



Whew, good thing she's just your stepmom. Sounds like shes already converted to the dark side. Just write her off.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:38:09 AM EST
and what's truly sad is that the only reason anyone wants to deny this is because Kerry was on one.

Rewind back a year (or more?) and ask the same question and I bet you'd get a completely different set of answers minus the political spin.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:38:13 AM EST
throw step momma from the train dude
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:39:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:
and what's truly sad is that the only reason anyone wants to deny this is because Kerry was on one.

Rewind back a year (or more?) and ask the same question and I bet you'd get a completely different set of answers minus the political spin.



really ---------------------
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:42:46 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:50:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 2:49:02 PM EST by Thunderbolt]
being a crewman aboard a Swift Boat during the Vietnam War was a dangerous job

Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:50:46 AM EST
Hanging out with the Kennedys is much more dangerous.

When Joe Jr. blew up, he took a co-pilot with him.

How many died on PT-109?

When Oswald shot Kennedy, Gov. Connolly took a round.

Riding with Teddy killed Mary Joe.

What was the name of the Kennedy who raped the girl in Florida during the "traditional Kennedy Easter Weekend?"

Both Bobby and Jack were diddling MM and she was found quite dead.

How many died with John-John when he flew into the Atlantic?

What was the name of the Kennedy relative recently convicted of murder by golf club?

What was the name of the Kennedy who did a Sonny Bono while skiing and died?

Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:51:31 AM EST
Kerry's was very dangerous.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:53:56 AM EST
Swift boat duty wasn't quite as hairy as being on the smaller PBRs but it wasn't like they were sitting off the coast like the blue water Navy guys serving on carriers or cruisers. Myself, I wouldn't want to be on a boat....the bad guys have a good idea the way you'll be coming. Either up river or down. Not to mention the boats will draw heavy weapons fire (rockets, DShK mg fire) while not being armored like a tank or as maneauverable like a helo.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:54:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 11:56:44 AM EST by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:58:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 11:58:22 AM EST by cyanide]

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

Originally Posted By AZSherman1:
Kerry's was very dangerous.



Yep afterall he did get a boo boo that required a bandaid.

Tj



TJ -- that remark lessens every mans service that ever served upon one.

Your contempt of Kerry is making you say silly things. JMO
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 11:59:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

Originally Posted By AZSherman1:
Kerry's was very dangerous.



Yep afterall he did get a self inflicted boo boo that required a bandaid.

Tj



Fixed it for you. If the dumbass managed to catch some shrapnel from his own fvcking about with a M79 then he could have easily caused other friendly fire.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:01:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 12:04:50 PM EST by cyanide]
swift boats

brave men doing their duty for god and country
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:06:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 12:06:49 PM EST by Mahatma8Rice]
Not for God and country, but rather for their crewmates. Wars are fought for the guy next to you. That is, unless you're our favorite Gunboat Gilligan.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:14:38 PM EST

Originally Posted By norman74:
and what's truly sad is that the only reason anyone wants to deny this is because Kerry was on one.

Rewind back a year (or more?) and ask the same question and I bet you'd get a completely different set of answers minus the political spin.



That is quite true. Based on casualty rates, Swifties had a reasonable chance to get home.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:16:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By Mahatma8Rice:
Not for God and country, but rather for their crewmates. Wars are fought for the guy next to you. That is, unless you're our favorite Gunboat Gilligan.


I was taking what is called "literary license"

Gunboat Gilligan -- first time I heard that.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:19:40 PM EST
Dont necesaarily respect that man.. but I respect his service.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:21:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By implausible:
Dint necessarily respect that man.. but I respect his service.

Salute
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:23:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 12:51:53 PM EST by nightstalker]
swiftboats.net/extras/casualties.htm

You can find Kerry and his boat on this site. I don't think his received any unit citations.

www.swiftboats.net

PCF 66
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:24:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 12:24:53 PM EST by nightstalker]
dupe
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:37:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:45:28 PM EST
I 'd be willing to bet that Swiftboat duty was just as dangerous as any other in-country duty at the time: More in some ways, less in others.

Every man who served thereon deserves respect for having served.

However, that doesn't give them carte blanche, either. Kerry served on a swiftboat. Good for him. Doesn't change the fact that he used every conceivable trick (legit and otherwise) to get his ass decorated and transferred out early, just so he could return to the United States and backstab all these men he's supposedly so proud of having served with.

Fascinating, really. It seems the only person Kerry is still proud to have served with in that war was the poor schlub who got his ass knocked overboard by a mine. Everyone else is either a liar, a Republican Operative, or a mass war criminal.

This scumbag should have his decorations rescinded, and his discharge reduced, unless, of course, you think HE is telling the truth and 200+ other decorated vets (Democrats and Republicans alike, BTW) are all lying....

I'll tell you why the Left is going so hysterical over the SwiftBoatVets ads; it's not only because they are exposing Kerry for the lying coward he is, but rather because if they establish that Kerry LIED THROUGH HIS ELITIST TEETH when testifying before Congress, then the ENTIRE anti-war movement falls apart, because it becomes clear that EVERYTHING they were claiming was a LIE.

This is MUCH bigger than just Kerry, and frankly, I'd also be willing to bet that there are die-hard 1960's long-haired hippie asshole liberals who are seathing that this dirtbag has put THEIR beloved agenda of the past, upon which their ENTIRE lives have been based, in jeopardy of being exposed as the fraud it is.....

Way to go, John.......!
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:50:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By nightstalker:
dupe



Nope, not a dupe. The other thread is unrelated, it just links to this one.



I am not saying Swift Boats were not dangerous, but to say that they were one of the most dangerous places to be is not true either, and is liberal propaganda.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:51:07 PM EST
Maj.Gen.Patrick Brady (Medal of Honor recipant) on Sen. Kerry
Northwest Veterans Newsletter ^ | 8/16/04 | Major Gen. Patrick Brady

Maj. Gen. Patrick Brady (Medal Of Honor recipient) on Sen. Kerry

"Guest Op-Ed by Maj. Gen. Patrick Brady 16 Aug 04

America has no kings or queens but we do have nobility – our nobility is called Veterans. That nobility is responsible for the bounty that is America but tragically their influence has faded in recent years and the values they died for are under attack. But this election year they are back in demand and some have said the veteran vote could decide this election. It may have put Bush in the White House. With this in mind, John Kerry is seldom seen with out his band of brothers and constantly plays the” hero” card as a cornerstone of his bid for president, indeed, as the definition of who he is. Kerry defines patriotism as “keeping faith with those who wear the uniform of this country. He also brags that he “defended this country as a young man”. If Missouri is the show me state, Veterans are the show me voters – we are not much for words, deeds are our stock in trade. Lets look at Kerry’s deeds.

Before Kerry played his “hero” card, he played the atrocity card. When Kerry came back from Vietnam he joined with Jane Fonda and in 1971 denounced “those who wear the uniform” as terrorists-like rapists and assassins who “cut off heads, taped wires … to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks” … and said he “committed the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others”. He made these charges under oath. Kerry says today that he would have framed some of what he said in 1971 differently. But he does not say he lied, which he did, nor does he apologize. How can one properly frame the denunciations of ones comrades in arms as modern day Genghis Khans? The very day that Kerry was calling Vietnam veterans’ war criminals the family of one of those “war criminals”, Michael Blanchfield, was posthumously receiving the Medal of Honor for Michael who had thrown himself on a grenade to save the lives of his comrades. How different from Kerry was the way this man kept faith with those who wore the uniform with him.

How different from Kerry was the manner Michael defended his country. He could have attacked the war without attacking the warrior. He could have questioned policy without supporting the communists’ claim that our soldiers were war criminals. He could have kept faith with those who wore the uniform with him. But he did not and he should be held accountable.

By every measure, the Vietnam veteran has been an exceptional citizen; but there is one disturbing statistic -- their suicide rate. In the first 5 years after discharge the rate was 1.7 times higher than non-veterans. After 5 years it was less. This may have been due to the treatment the Vietnam veteran received from the media – and the anti war movement led by Kerry -- in the early years after the war. Living with the scars of war is difficult, for some unbearable, but all veterans suffer. The Vietnam veteran suffered physically as much, perhaps more than any veteran of the past century, but no veteran has suffered the mental agony of that veteran.

What Kerry/Fonda and the media elite did to the Vietnam veteran and his family is deplorable. They opened a gash in his psyche and then rubbed salt in it. Not just the living but also those who died and their families who questioned if a loved one is a war criminal. And the POWs some who believed the Kerry/Fonda cartel extended the war, increased their torture and filled more body bags. Whether Kerry and Fonda have blood on their hands is debatable but there is no doubt they have salt on them.

Kerry’s “hero” card is based on medals he received in Vietnam and is much celebrated, and unchallenged, by the mainstream media. I know many Medal of Honor recipients who have received less publicity for their medal than Kerry has for his. But medals don’t make a hero. It is how one uses medals that make a hero. Every honest soldier knows that medals are a function of circumstance, even happenstance, but most of all the support of ones fellow warriors.

I was awarded the Medal of Honor; but my fellow soldiers who supported me in the actions and took the time to write it up earned it. I wear it for them, they own my medals. And every Medal of Honor recipient and hero I know believes as I do. Medals should be a sign of patriotism, a symbol of sacrifice, support and defense of a great nation. The highest form of patriotism is service to our youth; heroes also wear their medal for them to signal the importance of courage. Heroes do not use their medals for personal political gain. As I said they are not theirs to use.

Senator Kerry threw his medals away (or ribbons, they are symbolically the same), a political act very difficult for any veteran to understand. He must have been proud of them for he wore them even on his fatigues, in violation of all regulations. But they were not his. They belonged to those who he served. By that act he symbolically denounced his fellow veterans -- again. Does one keep faith with those who wear the uniform by throwing away their medals?

But perhaps most telling of his leadership qualities is his use of his Purple hearts to abandon his band of brothers, his command, on a technicality. Kerry may be the only person in history who took advantage of a Navy regulation that allowed him to leave his command after 4 months for 3 purple hearts none of which ever caused him to miss a day of duty. In my experience men fought to stay with their band of brothers, especially commanders. All the commanders I know would get out of a hospital bed to be with their men. Some one had to take his place; someone probably less experienced who would have to learn the ropes. That put his command more at risk than if he stayed. It is not hard to understand why those who stayed in combat for the full year are upset with Kerry.

And veterans today would be upset with Kerry’s support of Flag Burning his non-support of weapons systems and his 12 votes against military pay raises. But his use of veterans and mis use of his medals should bring into serious question his loyalty, integrity and character all of which equal leadership. He is not fit for command."

Maj. Gen. Brady's

http://www.medalofhonor.com/PatrickBrady.htm

Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:52:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By skipperJ:
Maj.Gen.Patrick Brady (Medal of Honor recipant) on Sen. Kerry....



"Just another Republican hack..."
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:57:58 PM EST
You stole cynaide's line.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 12:58:29 PM EST
If you don't mind a special request, please do learn a little bit about a PBR sailor and a true USN small boat hero

Here's some info about the "Gamewardens"

and a bunch nobody ever heard much about, Inshore Undersea Warfare Group One (IUWG-1)
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 1:03:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 1:10:02 PM EST
I had an uncle who served in Nam as a .50 gunner on a PBR. He operated quite a bit in the area around Dong Tam (wherever that is) and he saw his share of action. How these boats compare to swifts, I have no idea.

But I really could give a shit less what Kerry did or didn't do over 30 years ago to be honest. What really matters in this election is what each guy has done since entering politics and what they seek to do now. That's the issue. So as far as politics go, Kerry is an asshole. Kerry could have castrated Ho Chi Minh himself with a broken beer and it wouldn't earn him any points with me after all the years he's spent if office trying to erode our freedoms. So who gives a shit if he has a purple heart? His actions after coming home tells me he had a change of heart. That's what really matters here.

Now who still doesn't get it?
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 1:12:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/21/2004 1:13:38 PM EST by BUCC_Guy]
I respect anyone who served our country... and I respect them precisely for their service... even those folks that didn't even make it through boot camp (God knows I couldn't with my knee).

But Kerry's actions after the war and everything Maj. General Brady outlined above should weigh into everyone's decisions.

Kerry is a scumbag.

- BUCC_Guy

EDIT: God bless you, Tj
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 1:27:26 PM EST
cyanide:

Thanks for that link. I was thinking a Swift boat was a PBR. Interesting site.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 1:38:42 PM EST
There's actually been a show on the History channel (or is it Discovery...?) about the various boats that patrolled the rivers in Vietnam, and the history of how those boats came to be used and the evolution of the tactics involved. It's very interesting. Like the story of the boats that were picked up out of the water by helicopters, carried over a downed bridge, and surprised the hell out of the Viet. that were on the other side.
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 2:11:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

As for me, I could care less about what he did or didn't do in serivce but what he did about his service after he got out. He helped feed the fire that saw a generation of soldiers sacrafice for their country was nothing more than a war crime. My distain for his service pales in comparrison with his for mine and those I served.

Tj



Amen, brother!

In case I never said so, TJ: Thanks for your service. I was in diapers while you were in the jungle, and I want you to know I appreciate what you did, especially under the circumstances you did it...
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 2:23:52 PM EST
Swift Boats were not nearly as Dangerous as a PBR.

Swifts drew a deeper draft than a PBR. SO the Swift boats usally stayed in deeper water. Unlike the PBR that could cruise up a shit stream looking for trouble.

I was never in the Brown "Shit" Water Navy!!! Thank God
But it's not too bad of a discription even if it does come from a "Airdale" who was a "Orddy"
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 5:15:27 PM EST
Frankly, I'm not overly happy about EITHER of the candidates' Vietnam Era service records. I'm even less happy about their post-VN disservice records, and I'm supremely fucking pissed about both of their "service" records since gaining their respective offices. Like my dad (Pleiku, 65-66, radio op) says, "You best get right with God. The democrats are running a vet, the republicans are running a dodger, and both are lying so fast their lips are smoking."

Vote Cthulu is right..
Link Posted: 8/21/2004 6:39:39 PM EST
I guess a Riverine force boat would be my preference for a combat billet in Vietnam. Swift boats especially have great speed and firepower. They also have somewhat comfortable accomodations. They operated together so if yours got sank there could be a rescue, unlike choppers or fixed wing. Swift boats were first used to shut down the coastal VC traffic which did exist until around 1967.

GunLvr
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