Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
Durkin Tactical Franklin Armory
User Panel

Site Notices
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Posted: 10/25/2006 9:08:19 PM EDT
Please elaborate on your vote.


Seriously its cheaper and more effective (pro-active) than U.N. "peacekeepers", and there is precedent. With thier use in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Clintons issues with Executive Outcomes and the U.N. in Africa. I beleive those African countries were Sierra Leone and Uganda.


What say you?
Link Posted: 10/25/2006 9:09:33 PM EDT
[#1]
sounds like a decent idea.  EO did a great job in sierra leone.
Link Posted: 10/25/2006 9:13:34 PM EDT
[#2]
After the bang up job "Peacekeepers" did in the balkans and elsewhere, i'd say yea for the Mercs.
Link Posted: 10/25/2006 9:14:20 PM EDT
[#3]
If mercinaries want to go, why not?  Best idea because they have no requirements that they have to follow like the Hague and Geneva, IMO.  Plus, they keep the faggoty Senate out of the mix.  
Link Posted: 10/25/2006 9:20:39 PM EDT
[#4]

Quoted:
If mercinaries want to go, why not?  Best idea because they have no requirements that they have to follow like the Hague and Geneva, IMO.  Plus, they keep the faggoty Senate out of the mix.  


You want them to conduct operations ethicly.  No torture arrest and handover to locals or dead should be the only option.  What the locals do "in house" is beyond our control.
Link Posted: 10/25/2006 9:29:55 PM EDT
[#5]
No dissenters?  Must be a slow night.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:07:04 AM EDT
[#6]
Bump for day crew.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:09:32 AM EDT
[#7]
Actually, I think we should just leave those shitholes to rot.

I don't give a fuck what happens to those people and I don't want my tax dollars going anywhere near them.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:10:43 AM EDT
[#8]
UN Peacekeeping armies are already mercenaries. Indonesia and other pay their soldiers beans and make money off the top getting UN contracts.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:11:23 AM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:
Please elaborate on your vote.


Seriously its cheaper and more effective (pro-active) than U.N. "peacekeepers", and there is precedent. With thier use in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Clintons issues with Executive Outcomes and the U.N. in Africa. I beleive those African countries were Sierra Leone and Uganda.


What say you?


Thats why we have merc units like Blackwater, dynacorp and triple canopy to name a few.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:13:22 AM EDT
[#10]

Quoted:
Actually, I think we should just leave those shitholes to rot.

I don't give a fuck what happens to those people and I don't want my tax dollars going anywhere near them.


I prefer letting industry and economics to deal with it personally, but to commercialize and develop they must clear out the armed excrement.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:14:44 AM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:
UN Peacekeeping armies are already mercenaries. Indonesia and other pay their soldiers beans and make money off the top getting UN contracts.


As a general rule U.N. troops are not effective or cheap to deploy.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:15:21 AM EDT
[#12]
Why not?

and +1 on the not having Laws of War as a constraint--as someone pointed out last week with regard to the French Foreign Legion

"No better friend, no worse enemy" and "Get in our way and die" don't lead to pretty or media friendly operations--but they seem to be the only way to get shit done in those african hellholes"


Besides, the Sudanese muslims have it coming--they've been massacring Christians for the better part of 2 decades (I've had classmates who fled there (after their villages were burned, their fathers killed and sisters and mothers enslaved) when they were 5 and 6 years old--and I'm 20).
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:17:52 AM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:
Thats why we have merc units like Blackwater, dynacorp and triple canopy to name a few.


You are kidding, right?

Please tell me you are kidding.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:19:01 AM EDT
[#14]
Executive Outcomes is EXACTLY what needs to be done...the question is, who'd finance it.

And yes, I know EO no longer exists, but plenty of others still do.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:22:25 AM EDT
[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Thats why we have merc units like Blackwater, dynacorp and triple canopy to name a few.


You are kidding, right?

Please tell me you are kidding.


I think he is a tad confused on the facts.

Are you the first dissenter JW777?
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:27:21 AM EDT
[#16]
Sierra Leone: Less than 300 Mercs held back 10,000 insurgent rebels.

Highly trained Mercs are the way to go, it won't happen because the U.N. opposes any group that humiliates them.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:30:21 AM EDT
[#17]
Times must be changing.  I though I rembered than using the word Merc and Blackwater in the same sentance was just about as effective at killing a thread as saying "nuke them all from outerspace".

The writer of this thread does not approve of "nuking them all from outerspace" and has no opinion on private security companies .
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:32:00 AM EDT
[#18]
A while ago on The History Channel there was a show about EO in Sierra Leone (I think). They seem to have done a great job.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:39:21 AM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:
A while ago on The History Channel there was a show about EO in Sierra Leone (I think). They seem to have done a great job.


Clinton and the U.N. pressured the locals to boot them and things deteriorated in Sierra Leone fast.  U.N. wants status quo FUBAR they do not want real change.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:40:36 AM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:
Actually, I think we should just leave those shitholes to rot.

I don't give a fuck what happens to those people and I don't want my tax dollars going anywhere near them.


+1
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:40:57 AM EDT
[#21]
The Legion is already there but they're somewhat restrained at le moment.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:49:42 AM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Actually, I think we should just leave those shitholes to rot.

I don't give a fuck what happens to those people and I don't want my tax dollars going anywhere near them.


+1

Another +1.
We always have these liberal/college kids asking for signatures/donations to "help starving children in Africa" on the sidewalks near my work. I always say,"sounds like natural selection at work".
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 8:53:32 PM EDT
[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Thats why we have merc units like Blackwater, dynacorp and triple canopy to name a few.


You are kidding, right?

Please tell me you are kidding.


Hmm really, they are companies filled with ex-military that fight for money, calling them PSD, still doesnt hide the fact they are Mercs.......
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 8:58:33 PM EDT
[#24]
We don't need merceneries, plural.

We just need one:


Shackleford.  Rusty Shackleford.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 9:05:09 PM EDT
[#25]
I don't see the benefit of mercenaries in that situation, but I do truly like toilets - especially of the flush variety.  Therefore, I guess my votes cancel each other out.


Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Thats why we have merc units like Blackwater, dynacorp and triple canopy to name a few.


You are kidding, right?

Please tell me you are kidding.


Hmm really, they are companies filled with ex-military that fight for money, calling them PSD, still doesnt hide the fact they are Mercs.......


Exactly what "battles" have they "fought."

Those companies serve a security function no different than the hundreds of private security firms in the US - only in far more dangerous areas.

They are no more trying to play Soldier than an American CCW holder is trying to play cop.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 9:18:22 PM EDT
[#26]

Quoted:
They are no more trying to play Soldier than an American CCW holder is trying to play cop.


EO did fight actions.
And the guys that run Blackwater have essentially said they could do it.

I still don't get why "mecenary" became a bad word, other than from the left and the UN. It wasn't always so.

Link Posted: 10/26/2006 9:19:53 PM EDT
[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
UN Peacekeeping armies are already mercenaries. Indonesia and other pay their soldiers beans and make money off the top getting UN contracts.


As a general rule U.N. troops are not effective or cheap to deploy.


Yeah, but we foot that bill.

If you donate troops you get paid for them. If you get paid more than you make plus over what you contribute then you make a profit. This is why UN deployments are often made up of such shit militaries.

It's more of the "Hessian" model of mercenaries than the "company" model.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 9:51:05 PM EDT
[#28]
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:03:29 PM EDT
[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
They are no more trying to play Soldier than an American CCW holder is trying to play cop.


EO did fight actions.
And the guys that run Blackwater have essentially said they could do it.

I still don't get why "mecenary" became a bad word, other than from the left and the UN. It wasn't always so.



I was not referring to EO.  The poster I replied to specifically mentioned current PSD firms.

Being able to do it if asked is a far cry from doing it NOW.  The constant referral to security folks in Iraq and other places as "mercenaries" is getting stupid.  Their missions are much more akin to the secret service than the military.  They have no offensive role.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:15:31 PM EDT
[#30]
If their known, competant, *cough* western *cough* (ie not prone to coruption) outfits I'm all for it.

I think PMO's are really the only solution to many of these "peacekeeping" missions.  They will essentially operate like Special Forces would.  Go in, strong QRF, mainly training locals to fill the ranks and eventually take over for themselves.

Plus they don't have to worry about political fallout near as much as a Gov does with its troops thus the ROE and things of that nature are going to be oriented towards getting the job done.

They do have their limits on how big a chunk of territory they can operate in/control and the assets they have on call.

I don't see why people are against it.  If a firm doesn't like the mission/pay it can pull out or not go.  Its strictly voluntary to submit bids.  Who cares about casualties, its their choice.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 10:37:31 PM EDT
[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Please elaborate on your vote.


Seriously its cheaper and more effective (pro-active) than U.N. "peacekeepers", and there is precedent. With thier use in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Clintons issues with Executive Outcomes and the U.N. in Africa. I beleive those African countries were Sierra Leone and Uganda.


What say you?


Thats why we have merc units like Blackwater, dynacorp and triple canopy to name a few.


mercenary helicopter mechanics?

Or does dyncorp do more than just fix vehicles?
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 3:56:49 AM EDT
[#32]

Quoted:
Hmm really, they are companies filled with ex-military that fight for money, calling them PSD, still doesnt hide the fact they are Mercs.......




How many times do we have to go over this nonsense?
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 3:57:49 AM EDT
[#33]

Quoted:
And the guys that run Blackwater have essentially said they could do it.


Really?

When?



I still don't get why "mecenary" became a bad word, other than from the left and the UN. It wasn't always so.


Look up the term "Hessian" and report back with the results.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:14:25 AM EDT
[#34]
I guess it's time to bash contractors again, with all the same characters.  Don't you guys ever get tired of hearing the crap you spew?  I know I'm tired of it.  I'm sure you can go find a libtard site that spews the same mercenary baby-killer shit.  Hang out there.  Please..
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:17:43 AM EDT
[#35]
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:20:56 AM EDT
[#36]

Quoted:
I saw some Loomis-Fargo mercs yesterday.  They were riding around in their armored truck, picking up bags of money from grocery stores and banks.  Oh, and a couple of Pinkerton mercs were patrolling the mall.


I didn't know the pinkertons were still in existence....
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 4:29:17 AM EDT
[#37]
If PMF's or mercs want to get involved in it then let them go for it. I fall into the category of not wanting my tax dollars spent there. Then again, I don't really favor taxpayer funded foreign aid at all.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 7:47:26 AM EDT
[#38]
.......
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 8:03:13 AM EDT
[#39]

Quoted:
I don't see the benefit of mercenaries in that situation, but I do truly like toilets - especially of the flush variety.  Therefore, I guess my votes cancel each other out.


Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Thats why we have merc units like Blackwater, dynacorp and triple canopy to name a few.


You are kidding, right?

Please tell me you are kidding.


Hmm really, they are companies filled with ex-military that fight for money, calling them PSD, still doesnt hide the fact they are Mercs.......


Exactly what "battles" have they "fought."

Those companies serve a security function no different than the hundreds of private security firms in the US - only in far more dangerous areas.

They are no more trying to play Soldier than an American CCW holder is trying to play cop.

Gee and thats why they are doing raids in Baghdad????? I have seen them engage innocents and kill them for no reason that I could see. No oversight, no UCMJ= loose cannons with guns.....
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 8:05:35 AM EDT
[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Please elaborate on your vote.


Seriously its cheaper and more effective (pro-active) than U.N. "peacekeepers", and there is precedent. With thier use in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Clintons issues with Executive Outcomes and the U.N. in Africa. I beleive those African countries were Sierra Leone and Uganda.


What say you?


Thats why we have merc units like Blackwater, dynacorp and triple canopy to name a few.


mercenary helicopter mechanics?

Or does dyncorp do more than just fix vehicles?


They also train Iraqi security forces, we picked up several and transported them in the Jisr-Diyala area. They do more than just fix stuff, Iraqis always need alittle help on current interrogation techniques it seems.......
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 8:09:43 AM EDT
[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
And the guys that run Blackwater have essentially said they could do it.


Really?

When?



I still don't get why "mecenary" became a bad word, other than from the left and the UN. It wasn't always so.


Look up the term "Hessian" and report back with the results.



1)Couple months ago. IIRC they said they could put together about a brigade for peacekeeping operations. Similar to what the UN does now, but a)cheaper and b)with troops that aren't third world draftees that can't clean their AKs.


2)"Hessian" actually more equates with the modern UN missions than the more traditional "mercenary". Back in olden days your typical mercs were either well known officers selling their services at more mid to upper level command (think majors, col, gen) or "companies" of guys such as the Irish units in France and Spain. These guys all essentially worked for themselves.

The "Hessians" were disliked not so much because they were mercs (hell, lots of people were mercs. You could even consider Casimir Pulaski a traditional merc), but because of the nature of their hiring. Hessians were conscripited in the traditional European manner for their lord (mostly Landgrave Frederick II) and were then rented out by that lord. The mercs recieved the same pay as usual (often nothing) and only the Lord got money from it. Even George III thought this was a horrid thing, recruiting a man to fight for his country and then hiring him out to somebody else for a lord's own profit (sounds like some US soldiers complaints about UN missions!). That didn't stop Parliment and the Kind from using them, of course.

Besides, most of the "bad stuff" about Hessians is basically propaganda. They were widely known as excellent soldiers, and fought in almost every battle of the revolution.
Also, some German soldiers fighting as "Hessians" weren't actually mercenaries since George III had land and title in Germany. Hessians get a bad name because of early American propaganda. Of course, if we'd had the cash, we probably would've hired some too.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 9:28:36 AM EDT
[#42]

Quoted:
Gee and thats why they are doing raids in Baghdad????? I have seen them engage innocents and kill them for no reason that I could see. No oversight, no UCMJ= loose cannons with guns.....


Yeah.

I am sure you have.

Link Posted: 10/27/2006 9:35:09 AM EDT
[#43]

Quoted:
1)Couple months ago. IIRC they said they could put together about a brigade for peacekeeping operations. Similar to what the UN does now, but a)cheaper and b)with troops that aren't third world draftees that can't clean their AKs.


Can you provide a source please?



Besides, most of the "bad stuff" about Hessians is basically propaganda.


You missed the point.

Why would AMERICANS have an aversion to the title of Mercenary?

Answer: Because the use of mercenaries against the citizens of the US was one of the complaints listed against the Brittish Crown:

"He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation."

Declaration of Independence.



They were widely known as excellent soldiers, and fought in almost every battle of the revolution.


And they were also known for their brutality in Europe and the Americas. A reputation they EARNED on a few continents.

Propoganda?

I think not.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 11:39:56 AM EDT
[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Gee and thats why they are doing raids in Baghdad????? I have seen them engage innocents and kill them for no reason that I could see. No oversight, no UCMJ= loose cannons with guns.....


Yeah.

I am sure you have.



When they light up a car for no other reason than it got alittle close, ya no reason I can see. Thats why we have an ROE, the Army cant even just light the crap out of a car, cause it got alittle close. We had to send th e QRF out more than once because those PSD/mercs got their titty in a ringer and needed a bail out. Believe it or not ,doesnt really matter....
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 11:42:06 AM EDT
[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Gee and thats why they are doing raids in Baghdad????? I have seen them engage innocents and kill them for no reason that I could see. No oversight, no UCMJ= loose cannons with guns.....


Yeah.

I am sure you have.



When they light up a car for no other reason than it got alittle close, ya no reason I can see. Thats why we have an ROE, the Army cant even just light the crap out of a car, cause it got alittle close. We had to send th e QRF out more than once because those PSD/mercs got their titty in a ringer and needed a bail out. Believe it or not ,doesnt really matter....


I want to hear more about these raids you claim you saw them conduct.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 11:52:45 AM EDT
[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Gee and thats why they are doing raids in Baghdad????? I have seen them engage innocents and kill them for no reason that I could see. No oversight, no UCMJ= loose cannons with guns.....


Yeah.

I am sure you have.



When they light up a car for no other reason than it got alittle close, ya no reason I can see. Thats why we have an ROE, the Army cant even just light the crap out of a car, cause it got alittle close. We had to send th e QRF out more than once because those PSD/mercs got their titty in a ringer and needed a bail out. Believe it or not ,doesnt really matter....


I want to hear more about these raids you claim you saw them conduct.


3 Black SUVs, parked in front of a house near RTE Green/Baghdad, cuffing and stuffing some Hajis. They were not .mil or brits, was told by psy-ops they where PSDs working for the Iraqs.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 11:53:52 AM EDT
[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
1)Couple months ago. IIRC they said they could put together about a brigade for peacekeeping operations. Similar to what the UN does now, but a)cheaper and b)with troops that aren't third world draftees that can't clean their AKs.


Can you provide a source please?



Besides, most of the "bad stuff" about Hessians is basically propaganda.


You missed the point.

Why would AMERICANS have an aversion to the title of Mercenary?

Answer: Because the use of mercenaries against the citizens of the US was one of the complaints listed against the Brittish Crown:

"He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation."

Declaration of Independence.



They were widely known as excellent soldiers, and fought in almost every battle of the revolution.


And they were also known for their brutality in Europe and the Americas. A reputation they EARNED on a few continents.

Propoganda?

I think not.


BW did pitch putting together a 10,000 man security force for Dafur.


As to everyone else they are not mercs, they are security. They do not go out looking to engage enemy forces, they protect assests.
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 12:09:25 PM EDT
[#48]



Quoted:

Can you provide a source please?


www.google.com




You missed the point.

Why would AMERICANS have an aversion to the title of Mercenary?

Answer: Because the use of mercenaries against the citizens of the US was one of the complaints listed against the Brittish Crown:

"He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation."


The first Hessians involved in the Revolutionary War landed in NY in August of 1776. You'll notice the "at this time transporting". They knew that Hessians were on their way but they had not landed yet. So when the decleration was written no mercenaries had been used against citizens of the US (there weren't any of those yet either).

And yeah, the Decleration is finely calculated political propaganda. The founders were smart guys. Shit, look at who the Delceration is addressed to and who it complains about.


For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent


You don't really think George III imposed taxes on the American colonies, right? Now, if it had been addressed to George Greenville, fine. Hell, the war ended, not when the King threw in the towel but when the House of Commons did.




And they were also known for their brutality in Europe and the Americas. A reputation they EARNED on a few continents.

Propoganda?

I think not.


Who wasn't? We're talking 1700's warfare here. They weren't making corn flakes. Brutal = good soldier in that era. Daniel Morgan was not Mr. Kind and Gentle and if he had been he would've gotten his ass kicked at Cowpens.
Anyway most of the people in Europe bitching about the Hessians were those that couldn't afford them.  I've never seen an actual historical description of Hessian mercs fighting any differently than any other late 18th century unit. 'cept for the fact they were hired out by their princes.

If Americans really hated mercs they would've sent Casimir Pulaski and Baron von Steuben home. And gotten rid of all the Privateers (private citizens hired to attack shipping)
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 12:16:27 PM EDT
[#49]

Quoted:
Gee and thats why they are doing raids in Baghdad????? I have seen them engage innocents and kill them for no reason that I could see. No oversight, no UCMJ= loose cannons with guns.....


Link Posted: 10/27/2006 12:25:00 PM EDT
[#50]
The US has used PMF's in south america too. They are not involved only in asset protection. The 13 colonies hired "mercenaries" too during the war for independence, Baron Von Steuben for example.

Some books to check out:

Corporate Warriors by P.W. Singer
Mercenary Troops in Modern Africa by Gerry S. Thomas
Private Warriors by Ken Silverstein
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 2
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top