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Posted: 4/18/2006 12:07:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/18/2006 12:55:01 PM EST by TacticalStrat]
Below is an excerpt from The Browning 1919A4 and 1919A6 Machineguns article that appeared in Small Arms Review.


John Browning first demonstrated his latest water-cooled machine gun in February of 1917. The demonstration was witnessed by many senators, congressman and high-ranking military officers, as well as representatives from many friendly foreign armies. In the months following the demonstration, Mr. Browning continued working to improve his machine gun. In May of 1917 his weapon was again tested at the government proving ground located at the Springfield Armory.

Its performance in the test was nothing short of amazing. At a cyclic rate of over six hundred rounds per minute, 40,000 rounds were fired without a malfunction. The results of this test attracted interest as well by Frank Iannamico skepticism. To quell any doubts of the gun’s worth, another test was scheduled or the weapon.

In the second test, the gun was fired by Mr. Browning for 48 minutes straight with no malfunctions or stoppages
.
Duly impressed, the board of five U.S. Army officers who witnessed the testing recommended the weapon for immediate adoption. Unfortunately few of the Browning machine guns made it to Europe before the war ended. At the conclusion of World War One in 1918, the United States Army had approximately 140,000 machine guns in its inventory. The conservative U.S. Army of the day felt no need for additional weapons.



The 1917 Watercooled looks similiar to this gun. The gun in the picture below is a 8mm Colt-Browning version called the MG38 (semi-auto made by Black Bear).


Link Posted: 4/18/2006 12:09:19 PM EST
48 minutes! How did the barrel not melt off?
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 12:09:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By roboman:
48 minutes! How did the barrel not melt off?



water cooled
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 12:15:36 PM EST
I heard a story from War 1, that six machineguns fired a million rounds between them in like 10 hours. Wow.

FWIW, the M240 has like a 50,000 MRBF according to FN.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 12:16:05 PM EST
When firearms are made of REAL STEEL and not aluminum or plastic, they can do things like that.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 12:21:35 PM EST
HK MG4 formally known as the MG43 did 102,000 round torture test at the Yuma Proving Grounds, Yuma, Arizona
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 12:30:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By roboman:
48 minutes! How did the barrel not melt off?



My father-in-law was at Pearl Harbor. He got one of these and fired it dry until the barrel warped and the gun jammed. He didn't have access to the water cooler. When he turned it in the armorer was really pissed. But hey, he was a Marine, he was in a fight and it was there waiting to be used.

He has no idea if he ever hit anything. Stuff was happening way to fast.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 12:34:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I heard a story from War 1, that six machineguns fired a million rounds between them in like 10 hours. Wow.

FWIW, the M240 has like a 50,000 MRBF according to FN.




Here's the story: August 1916 that went down in history, 10 British Vickers machine guns maintained a sustained barrage on the Germans in the eastern corner of High Wood for 12 hours, firing a million rounds; 4,000 belts of 0.303 inch ammunition. One Vickers alone fired 120,000 rounds.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 12:38:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Here's the story: August 1916 that went down in history, 10 British Vickers machine guns maintained a sustained barrage on the Germans in the eastern corner of High Wood for 12 hours, firing a million rounds; 4,000 belts of 0.303 inch ammunition. One Vickers alone fired 120,000 rounds.




Did they hit anything?
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 12:40:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By yobo:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Here's the story: August 1916 that went down in history, 10 British Vickers machine guns maintained a sustained barrage on the Germans in the eastern corner of High Wood for 12 hours, firing a million rounds; 4,000 belts of 0.303 inch ammunition. One Vickers alone fired 120,000 rounds.




Did they hit anything?



no, they were shooting sideways gangsta style
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 12:41:27 PM EST
I would have liked to seen that in person.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 12:42:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By yobo:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Here's the story: August 1916 that went down in history, 10 British Vickers machine guns maintained a sustained barrage on the Germans in the eastern corner of High Wood for 12 hours, firing a million rounds; 4,000 belts of 0.303 inch ammunition. One Vickers alone fired 120,000 rounds.




Did they hit anything?



no, they were shooting sideways gangsta style




That's the funniest shit I've read all day. LOL!!!


I read the Germans were about 1800 yards away and the results were later determined to be devastating.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 12:46:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By roboman:
48 minutes! How did the barrel not melt off?



water cooled



yup, its the water cooled version of the 1919. I think there are photos from the test someplace.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 12:57:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By gaweidert:

Originally Posted By roboman:
48 minutes! How did the barrel not melt off?



My father-in-law was at Pearl Harbor. He got one of these and fired it dry until the barrel warped and the gun jammed. He didn't have access to the water cooler. When he turned it in the armorer was really pissed. But hey, he was a Marine, he was in a fight and it was there waiting to be used.

He has no idea if he ever hit anything. Stuff was happening way to fast.



It is a little odd for him to be pissed about a damaged machine gun when he had, what? how many ships lying on the harbor floor? how many planes destroyed while sitting in the airfield? how many men dead?

Sheesh. I may be assuming a little much here, but that armorer deserved a smack.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 1:01:08 PM EST


Link Posted: 4/18/2006 1:06:15 PM EST


Reading that article that makes me love mine that much more.





Link Posted: 4/18/2006 1:16:41 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 1:18:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Steyr and TacticalStrat?

You both need more cowbell.


www.tvcc.edu/faculty/ballen/19193.jpg

TRG





<right click><save>

thanks
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 1:19:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
img98.imageshack.us/img98/1701/p10032604rz.jpg





Is that semi or FA?
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 1:23:35 PM EST
Wonder how the Browning 8mm 1917 measures up to the Maxim water cooled MG.


I am related to Sir Hirarm Maxim on my mom's side so Machine guns and suppressors are in my blood

Chris
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 1:26:35 PM EST
My dad carried part of one of those when he was a young private. They were still using them in the National Guard in the late 50s. He commented on they were heavy.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 1:29:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
I heard a story from War 1, that six machineguns fired a million rounds between them in like 10 hours. Wow.

FWIW, the M240 has like a 50,000 MRBF according to FN.




Here's the story: August 1916 that went down in history, 10 British Vickers machine guns maintained a sustained barrage on the Germans in the eastern corner of High Wood for 12 hours, firing a million rounds; 4,000 belts of 0.303 inch ammunition. One Vickers alone fired 120,000 rounds.



I'd have given the marine a little hell about it, but then I'd tell him that he better have shot down some fucking ***s with it, damnit!

Link Posted: 4/18/2006 1:29:24 PM EST
Probably the closest you'd come to that today would be the M240/MAG-58...

Maybe the MG3

No water cooling, but we do have quick-change barrels now...
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 1:33:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lord_Grey_Boots:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By roboman:
48 minutes! How did the barrel not melt off?



water cooled



yup, its the water cooled version of the 1919. I think there are photos from the test someplace.



how did a water cooled version of the M1919 show up in 1917?

Link Posted: 4/18/2006 1:40:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Steyr and TacticalStrat?

You both need more cowbell.


www.tvcc.edu/faculty/ballen/19193.jpg

TRG



Notice the keyring and string hanging off the trigger...
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 1:40:56 PM EST
Machine Gun, Cal. .30, M1917/M1917A1 (1917). The M1917 water-cooled .30 cal. machine gun was developed by John Browning. The M1971A1 was the Army's standard battalion level machine gun until the mid-1950s. The M1917A1 .30 cal. machine gun was replaced by the M60 7.62mm machine gun. M1917 water-cooled machine gun saw service with the last U.S. troops to enter France near the end of World War I. The M1917 was tripod mounted, but was also used as an aircraft gun. The M1917 had a rate of fire of 450 spm.

M1917A1. Following World War I the M1917 was modified and remanufactured at the Rock Island Arsenal, IL. The modified weapon was designated M1917A1. Additional modifications were made to new production machine guns. The M1971A1 was the Army's standard battalion level machine gun. It saw service in World War II and Korea. The M1917 had a rate of fire of 450-600 spm.

Browning M1917/M1917A1 .30 Cal. machine gun (Copyright The Stackpole Co.).


Machine Gun, Cal. .30, M1919A4/M1919A6 (1919). The M1919A2, the predecessor to the M1919A4 and M1919A6, evolved from the Browning model M1917 water-cooled machine gun. The M1919 series .30 cal. machine gun was replaced by the M60 7.62mm machine gun. M1919A4 was used as both a company level flexible light machine gun on the M2 tripod mount and as a fixed machine gun on armored vehicles. The M1919A4 had a heavier barrel with a ventilated barrel jacket, but developed a slower rate of fire (400-550 spm) than the water-cooled gun.
Browning M1919A4 .30 Cal. machine gun (Copyright The Stackpole Co.).
M1919A5 was a modification to the M1919A4 for use as a tank machine gun.
M1919A6 was a war time modification to add tactical flexibility by substitution of a bipod in place of the tripod and addition of a shoulder stock and carrying handle. The M1919A6 had a lighter barrel than the M1919A4. It had a rate of 400-500 spm.
Browning M1919A6 .30 Cal. machine gun (Copyright The Stackpole Co.).

Link Posted: 4/18/2006 1:42:50 PM EST
The reasons why they are reliable but ARE NO LONGER considerd viable are many. #1 They weigh a freaking ton. Todays lighter MG do sacrafice some reliablity in the name of weight reduction. Second they were water cooled! It adds a ton of weight but It's real easy to shoot like hell and not get a burned out barrel or lose accuracy when you have a huge Water cannister cooling the thing, but again it adds a ton of weight. Third a weapon THAT heavy does not figire into todays tactics model of a very mobile force. They later had a air cooled model but it suffered all the same problems that other Air cooled MG's suffer. IMHO the best MG of the early 20th century is the MG-42, it could do all the things the Browning 1919 could do at 1/3 the weight due to it's easily changable barrel.


PS- if you run out of water you piss on the damn thing!!!!! Take that Jap(anese person) !
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 1:47:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By yobo:
Did they hit anything?



Who Cares, perhaps they were just making a beaten zone, one of fun things you can do with a GPMG
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 1:54:38 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 2:01:15 PM EST
Dillon Mini-Gun will do it in 1/1000 the time.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 2:03:55 PM EST
Water cooled how? What circulates the aqua? I would think it would boil off immediately at that rate....



(Never seen one)
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 2:05:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By UZI4you:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
img98.imageshack.us/img98/1701/p10032604rz.jpg





Is that semi or FA?



It's the infamous white tile floor.
That bitch is full auto.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 2:06:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Steyr and TacticalStrat?

You both need more cowbell.


www.tvcc.edu/faculty/ballen/19193.jpg

TRG




Link Posted: 4/18/2006 2:13:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:
Water cooled how? What circulates the aqua? I would think it would boil off immediately at that rate....



(Never seen one)



See the jacket around the barrel?
As the water boils off, it turns into steam, steam runs down the water tube, into the water can, where it condenses, and turns back to water.
You then pour the water back into the jacket, and start over again.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 2:16:57 PM EST

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By yobo:

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:

Here's the story: August 1916 that went down in history, 10 British Vickers machine guns maintained a sustained barrage on the Germans in the eastern corner of High Wood for 12 hours, firing a million rounds; 4,000 belts of 0.303 inch ammunition. One Vickers alone fired 120,000 rounds.




Did they hit anything?



no, they were shooting sideways gangsta style



did tehy have da beamz?
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 2:17:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By TacticalStrat:
Below is an excerpt from The Browning 1919A4 and 1919A6 Machineguns article that appeared in Small Arms Review.


John Browning first demonstrated his latest water-cooled machine gun in February of 1917. The demonstration was witnessed by many senators, congressman and high-ranking military officers, as well as representatives from many friendly foreign armies. In the months following the demonstration, Mr. Browning continued working to improve his machine gun. In May of 1917 his weapon was again tested at the government proving ground located at the Springfield Armory.

Its performance in the test was nothing short of amazing. At a cyclic rate of over six hundred rounds per minute, 40,000 rounds were fired without a malfunction. The results of this test attracted interest as well by Frank Iannamico skepticism. To quell any doubts of the gun’s worth, another test was scheduled or the weapon.

In the second test, the gun was fired by Mr. Browning for 48 minutes straight with no malfunctions or stoppages
.
Duly impressed, the board of five U.S. Army officers who witnessed the testing recommended the weapon for immediate adoption. Unfortunately few of the Browning machine guns made it to Europe before the war ended. At the conclusion of World War One in 1918, the United States Army had approximately 140,000 machine guns in its inventory. The conservative U.S. Army of the day felt no need for additional weapons.



The 1917 Watercooled looks similiar to this gun. The gun in the picture below is a 8mm Colt-Browning version called the MG38 (semi-auto made by Black Bear).


members.roadfly.com/agent7/guns/mg38-2.jpg



My grandfather was on a crew for that weapon in the Philippines abd Europe in WWII
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 2:20:44 PM EST

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:
Water cooled how? What circulates the aqua? I would think it would boil off immediately at that rate....



(Never seen one)



See the jacket around the barrel?
As the water boils off, it turns into steam, steam runs down the water tube, into the water can, where it condenses, and turns back to water.
You then pour the water back into the jacket, and start over again.



Some of the Finnish & Russian watercooled Maxims had oversized filler necks in the water jacket so handfuls of snow could be shoveled in easily.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 2:40:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

Originally Posted By 556fiend:

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Steyr and TacticalStrat?

You both need more cowbell.


www.tvcc.edu/faculty/ballen/19193.jpg

TRG



Notice the keyring and string hanging off the trigger...



Retaining pin for the crankfiring adapter.


Ex-GF decorated that tree for me.

TRG



TRG,
Does something like that really exist? If so, what does it cost and where can I get one?

Also, what 1919A4 brand do you guys recommend?


Thanks,
Bigfeet
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 3:24:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By RiffRandall:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By AZ-K9:
Water cooled how? What circulates the aqua? I would think it would boil off immediately at that rate....



(Never seen one)



See the jacket around the barrel?
As the water boils off, it turns into steam, steam runs down the water tube, into the water can, where it condenses, and turns back to water.
You then pour the water back into the jacket, and start over again.



Some of the Finnish & Russian watercooled Maxims had oversized filler necks in the water jacket so handfuls of snow could be shoveled in easily.



That is just too cool.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 3:33:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By Lord_Grey_Boots:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By roboman:
48 minutes! How did the barrel not melt off?



water cooled



yup, its the water cooled version of the 1919. I think there are photos from the test someplace.



how did a water cooled version of the M1919 show up in 1917?




Guessing here, but the M1919 is the year the weapons was accepted for use, AFTER trials were completed.

So in 1917 when trials were going are the Army hadn't assigned it a nomenclature yet.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 3:42:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By Lord_Grey_Boots:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By roboman:
48 minutes! How did the barrel not melt off?



water cooled



yup, its the water cooled version of the 1919. I think there are photos from the test someplace.



how did a water cooled version of the M1919 show up in 1917?




Guessing here, but the M1919 is the year the weapons was accepted for use, AFTER trials were completed.

So in 1917 when trials were going are the Army hadn't assigned it a nomenclature yet.



The M1917 IS the water cooled version. The M1919 is the LATER air cooled version and it was developed not only a a tripod mounted gun but bipod and other variations.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 3:56:23 PM EST
there is a WWII video some where of a water cooled and an air cooled 1919 both shooting off at the same time, it was during the winter with snow on the ground. the water cooled gun was hiding behind a steam cloud and the air cooled gun had 2 guys throwing snow on the barrel. remember this is a vintage war footage video if you try to find it
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 5:42:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By scotty1911:
there is a WWII video some where of a water cooled M1917 and an air cooled M1919 both shooting off at the same time, it was during the winter with snow on the ground. the water cooled gun was hiding behind a steam cloud and the air cooled gun had 2 guys throwing snow on the barrel. remember this is a vintage war footage video if you try to find it

Link Posted: 4/18/2006 5:47:54 PM EST
I like machine guns.

Max
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 5:52:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By UZI4you:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
img98.imageshack.us/img98/1701/p10032604rz.jpg





Is that semi or FA?



It's the infamous white tile floor.
That bitch is full auto.



Didn't you know?

Any weapon that touches the infamous white tile becomes full-auto.
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 6:06:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/18/2006 6:06:55 PM EST by Mikhail_86]

Originally Posted By bmick325:

Originally Posted By thedoctors308:

Originally Posted By UZI4you:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
img98.imageshack.us/img98/1701/p10032604rz.jpg





Is that semi or FA?



It's the infamous white tile floor.
That bitch is full auto.



Didn't you know?

Any weapon that touches the infamous white tile becomes full-auto.



Must be nice, where can I pick up a magic floor?

Link Posted: 4/18/2006 9:33:32 PM EST
ironly some of crank fired 1919's can clock faster then the real deal full autos in terms of Rounds per minute,
Link Posted: 4/18/2006 9:42:38 PM EST
I love WWII-era weapons. They were so rugged and reliable.

No Mickey Mouse shit back then...
Link Posted: 4/19/2006 4:45:21 AM EST
Link Posted: 4/19/2006 4:54:48 AM EST


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