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Posted: 4/13/2009 6:30:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2009 6:30:38 PM EDT by HK_Shooter_03]
I am trying to understand why Christians are comfortable with even the first few pages of the bible.
Are you comfortable with the fact that God would rather you live within Eden in blind faith and ignorance?
Why is the devil "bad" for offering an opportunity to know the truth and seek knowledge?
 

 
Link Posted: 4/13/2009 6:36:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
I am trying to understand why Christians are comfortable with even the first few pages of the bible.

Are you comfortable with the fact that God would rather you live within Eden in blind faith and ignorance?

Why is the devil "bad" for offering an opportunity to know the truth and seek knowledge?


   


I've started several different responses, but your tone strongly suggests to me you really aren't looking for answers. As such, no answer would possibly be accepted by you .

"The fool has said in his heart "No, God."
Link Posted: 4/13/2009 6:38:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/13/2009 7:00:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2009 7:02:26 PM EDT by HK_Shooter_03]





Originally Posted By garandman:





Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:


I am trying to understand why Christians are comfortable with even the first few pages of the bible.





Are you comfortable with the fact that God would rather you live within Eden in blind faith and ignorance?





Why is the devil "bad" for offering an opportunity to know the truth and seek knowledge?
   






I've started several different responses, but your tone strongly suggests to me you really aren't looking for answers. As such, no answer would possibly be accepted by you .





"The fool has said in his heart "No, God."






Not true - I respect both choices, I'm an agnostic:
God can be seen as an agent of a system that is built to enslave the mind to maintain order.





The devil seeks to free one's mind with the inevitability of chaos and disorder.





The devil's logic seems to be neither right nor wrong. (It is only "wrong" if you make it "wrong".) There
are no rules because rules can be broken. What is impossible today
might be possible tomorrow.





God says that the absence of God is sin. (Things are
"wrong" regardless of if you think it is "wrong" or not.) There are rules
because certain things just "are". What will be will be.





My mind is made up as to which side I pick. I am just trying to get an insight as to why anyone would pick the other side.





I believe knowledge and faith are truly incompatible (and mutually exculsive) and that there is no way either side can make a compromise with the other.





We will disagree but it provides stimulating thought and thought provoking discussion.
 
Link Posted: 4/13/2009 7:00:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2009 7:12:55 PM EDT by limaxray]
Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
I am trying to understand why Christians are comfortable with even the first few pages of the bible.

Are you comfortable with the fact that God would rather you live within Eden in blind faith and ignorance?

Why is the devil "bad" for offering an opportunity to know the truth and seek knowledge?


   


A)  Show where Adam and Eve were ignorant.  The ONE thing, the only thing, they were not allowed to do was eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  Not tree of knowledge, period, but the one that made them understand––and be able to pick between––good and evil.  

They had their chance for life in Paradise, and they blew it.

The result was that since God is good, and nothing but good, then evil cannot abide in His presence.  Since they disobeyed God, they made their choice on which they would choose––good, or evil.  And what followed was the consequences of their actions, not the whim of a fickle God.

Since you seem to have come to a forgone conclusion, riddle me this:  if God was so harsh as to kick them out of Paradise for one little mistake, why, then, did he sacrifice His own Son to bring us back closer to Him?

B)  Yes, the devil was "bad;"  that's why he's called the Devil, the Evil One, etc.  I thought that one was covered in first-grade Sunday school.
Link Posted: 4/13/2009 7:03:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2009 7:07:48 PM EDT by limaxray]
Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
I believe knowledge and faith are truly incompatible (and mutually exculsive) and that there is no way either side can make a compromise with the other.



What kind of knowledge are you talking about?  

Science type knowledge?  Then you better let Keppler, Newton, Copernicus, and Galileo (just off the top of my head) know, since they were all devout Christians trying to discover God's meaning in the natural world.

Better yet––WHY do you say knowledge and faith are truly incompatible?  What makes that so?  

ETA:  And in your title, it should be "y'all," not "you all."  Sheesh.  And you're from Georgia, even.  
Link Posted: 4/13/2009 7:12:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By limaxray:
Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
I am trying to understand why Christians are comfortable with even the first few pages of the bible.

Are you comfortable with the fact that God would rather you live within Eden in blind faith and ignorance?

Why is the devil "bad" for offering an opportunity to know the truth and seek knowledge?


   


A)  Show where Adam and Eve were ignorant.  The ONE thing, the only thing, they were not allowed to do was eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  Not tree of knowledge, period, but the one that made them understand––and be able to pick between––good and evil.  

They had their chance for life in Paradise, and they blew it.

The result was that since God is good, and nothing but good, then evil cannot abide in His presence.  Since they disobeyed God, they made their choice on which they would choose––good, or evil.  And what followed was the consequences of their actions, not the whim of a fickle God.

Since you seem to have come to a forgone conclusion, riddle me this:  if God was so harsh as to kick them out of Paradise for one little mistake, why, then, did he sacrifice His own Son to bring us back closer to him?

B)  Yes, the devil was "bad;"  that's why he's called the Devil, the Evil One, etc.  I thought that one was covered in first-grade Sunday school.


Or did God's plan unfold exactly as intended, why was satan roaming around paradise to tempt, if evil couldn't possibly be in the presence of God?
Link Posted: 4/13/2009 7:19:30 PM EDT



Originally Posted By limaxray:



A)  Show where Adam and Eve were ignorant.  

And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

The ONE thing, the only thing, they were not allowed to do was eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  Not tree of knowledge, period, but the one that made them understand––and be able to pick between––good and evil.  

So they were given the choice to blindly follow or know the truth.

They had their chance for life in Paradise, and they blew it.

They choose to know the truth. Once you know the truth - you can't have faith.

The result was that since God is good, and nothing but good, then evil cannot abide in His presence.  Since they disobeyed God, they made their choice on which they would choose––good, or evil.  And what followed was the consequences of their actions, not the whim of a fickle God.

I agree - God cast them out because they could not be "self-aware" within the garden.

Since you seem to have come to a forgone conclusion, riddle me this:  if God was so harsh as to kick them out of Paradise for one little mistake, why, then, did he sacrifice His own Son to bring us back closer to him?

I do not know. I will attempt to reach a logical conclusion in the meantime...

B)  Yes, the devil was "bad;"  that's why he's called the Devil, the Evil One, etc.  I thought that one was covered in first-grade Sunday school.

Why was the devil bad? I don't accept the fact that the devil is bad because they told me so in Sunday school.







 
Link Posted: 4/13/2009 7:23:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By limaxray:
Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
I am trying to understand why Christians are comfortable with even the first few pages of the bible.

Are you comfortable with the fact that God would rather you live within Eden in blind faith and ignorance?

Why is the devil "bad" for offering an opportunity to know the truth and seek knowledge?


   


A)  Show where Adam and Eve were ignorant.  The ONE thing, the only thing, they were not allowed to do was eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  Not tree of knowledge, period, but the one that made them understand––and be able to pick between––good and evil.  

They had their chance for life in Paradise, and they blew it.

The result was that since God is good, and nothing but good, then evil cannot abide in His presence.  Since they disobeyed God, they made their choice on which they would choose––good, or evil.  And what followed was the consequences of their actions, not the whim of a fickle God.

Since you seem to have come to a forgone conclusion, riddle me this:  if God was so harsh as to kick them out of Paradise for one little mistake, why, then, did he sacrifice His own Son to bring us back closer to him?

B)  Yes, the devil was "bad;"  that's why he's called the Devil, the Evil One, etc.  I thought that one was covered in first-grade Sunday school.


Or did God's plan unfold exactly as intended, why was satan roaming around paradise to tempt, if evil couldn't possibly be in the presence of God?


Oooooh....that gets into a bunch of Calvinist predestination philosophy that always makes my head hurt.

Your point, I think, can be asked and answered like this:  God wants us to love Him, but it must be freely given.  In order to be freely given, God had to give Adam and Eve the chance to choose to love and obey Him....or not.  In order to do that, yes, the devil must be allowed in the Garden to tempt them.

Here's where the head-hurting starts:  Did Adam and Eve ever have a chance?  Did God give them the chance to sin, and therefore took the chance that they wouldn't, or did he know they wouldn't measure up, and as a result their choices didn't really mean much, since God put exactly the right temptation in their path, knowing they wouldn't pass the test, so we could therefore have the opportunity to accept Christ as our Savior?

Beats me; that thinking is WAY above my pay grade.  All I know is that the Bible repeatedly says that God cannot put up with sin, and shuns it.  Since Adam and Eve sinned, they had to go.

I guess to be more accurate I need to change "evil cannot abide in His presence" to "He cannot tolerate sin in His presence."
Link Posted: 4/13/2009 7:25:20 PM EDT





Originally Posted By limaxray:





Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:


I believe knowledge and faith are truly incompatible (and mutually exculsive) and that there is no way either side can make a compromise with the other.











What kind of knowledge are you talking about?  





Science type knowledge?  Then you better let Keppler, Newton, Copernicus, and Galileo (just off the top of my head) know, since they were all devout Christians trying to discover God's meaning in the natural world.





Better yet––WHY do you say knowledge and faith are truly incompatible?  What makes that so?  





ETA:  And in your title, it should be "y'all," not "you all."  Sheesh.  And you're from Georgia, even.  




I'm an East coast Yankee transplant from Memphis.







One cannot "believe" something once he or she "knows" it.





If you accept your own reality and you realize that the world is round - could you ever go back to believing the world is flat (if it actually isn't

)?




 
 
Link Posted: 4/13/2009 7:28:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2009 7:40:22 PM EDT by limaxray]
Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:

Originally Posted By limaxray:

A)  Show where Adam and Eve were ignorant.  
And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?


How is that "ignorance?"  I guess you need to define the term.  


The ONE thing, the only thing, they were not allowed to do was eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  Not tree of knowledge, period, but the one that made them understand––and be able to pick between––good and evil.  
So they were given the choice to blindly follow or know the truth.


No, they were given the choice to trust Him in the boundaries that He gave them, and they blew His trust.  


They had their chance for life in Paradise, and they blew it.
They choose to know the truth. Once you know the truth - you can't have faith.


Huh?  You'll have to explain that one some more.  


The result was that since God is good, and nothing but good, then evil cannot abide in His presence.  Since they disobeyed God, they made their choice on which they would choose––good, or evil.  And what followed was the consequences of their actions, not the whim of a fickle God.
I agree - God cast them out because they could not be "self-aware" within the garden.


No, God cast them out because they DISOBEYED Him.  "Don't touch that."  They touched that.  Not that hard to understand.  Has nothing to do with how self-aware they were.

God established that rule because he wanted to save them from the knowledge of evil.  Sort of like I don't necessarily want my first-grader to understand what child abuse is, so I protect him from it.  

Since you seem to have come to a forgone conclusion, riddle me this:  if God was so harsh as to kick them out of Paradise for one little mistake, why, then, did he sacrifice His own Son to bring us back closer to him?
I do not know. I will attempt to reach a logical conclusion in the meantime...
B)  Yes, the devil was "bad;"  that's why he's called the Devil, the Evil One, etc.  I thought that one was covered in first-grade Sunday school.
Why was the devil bad? I don't accept the fact that the devil is bad because they told me so in Sunday school.


Maybe because the Devil is the personification of everything that sets us apart from God––temptation, selfishness, anger, jealousy, etc.

Therefore, if God is good, and the devil is the opposite, why wouldn't he be bad?



Link Posted: 4/13/2009 7:37:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/13/2009 7:39:27 PM EDT by limaxray]
Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:

Originally Posted By limaxray:
Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
I believe knowledge and faith are truly incompatible (and mutually exculsive) and that there is no way either side can make a compromise with the other.



What kind of knowledge are you talking about?  

Science type knowledge?  Then you better let Keppler, Newton, Copernicus, and Galileo (just off the top of my head) know, since they were all devout Christians trying to discover God's meaning in the natural world.

Better yet––WHY do you say knowledge and faith are truly incompatible?  What makes that so?  

ETA:  And in your title, it should be "y'all," not "you all."  Sheesh.  And you're from Georgia, even.  

I'm an East coast Yankee transplant from Memphis.

One cannot "believe" something once he or she "knows" it.

If you accept your own reality and you realize that the world is round - could you ever go back to believing the world is flat (if it actually isn't )?
   


I disagree.  

I can know that the United States Air Force is the best military in air, space and cyberspace on the planet.  I can have number of fighters, personnel, capabilities of each airframe compared to our adversaries, accuracy of our weapons down to the foot, number-crunch all of that and come up with a statistical proof that, in fact, the USAF is the most capable one on earth.

I can also believe it, because all that capability and technology doesn't mean squat without the hearts and minds of the people who run it, and so I believe we're the best Air Force in the world because my HEART tells me the people + the equipment adds up to more than the sum of its parts.

See, "knowing" is with your head, and "believing" is with your heart.  You can use both at the same time without risking damage.

ETA:  I'll agree with you that it's pretty hard to know something and believe the OPPOSITE, but people (think liberals) do that all the time––in spite of the evidence, they think guns are bad, for example.
Link Posted: 4/13/2009 7:45:17 PM EDT
Jesus called him a murderer and father of lies. I would say that's bad.

Jhn 8:42- Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.  

Jhn 8:43- "Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.  

Jhn 8:44-"You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.  

Jhn 8:45- "But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.  

Jhn 8:46- "Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?  

Jhn 8:47 "Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."  
Link Posted: 4/14/2009 8:32:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By limaxray:

No, God cast them out because they DISOBEYED Him.  "Don't touch that."  They touched that.  Not that hard to understand.  Has nothing to do with how self-aware they were.

God established that rule because he wanted to save them from the knowledge of evil.  Sort of like I don't necessarily want my first-grader to understand what child abuse is, so I protect him from it.  




Sooo if your first grader became curious and learned what child abuse is you would just kick him out of your house then have another son and kill him so your first son could come back home.? why not just forgive the first son right off the bat and skip all the hooplah.
Link Posted: 4/14/2009 8:37:52 AM EDT
Here is how I have come to believe that the Old Testament, all of it, is OK.  I looked at the life of Jesus, who I believe is who he says he is, the son of God.  Jesus used the OT to teach truth about Himself, God the Father, and the nature of mankind.  Once I looked at the evidence for Jesus being who he said he was, and His resurrection from the dead actually happened, my questions about the OT's validity go away.  That doesn't mean that I can possibly comprehend it all, but I am at peace knowing that it is the message sent from God to do His redeeming work here on earth.  

If the OT had glaring errors, Jesus would have pointed them out, just like he pointed out that the religious leaders of his time were way off base.  The religious leaders were so intent on "being religious" and making sure that everyone else was "being religious" that they missed the whole point of God's word.  The Bible was never meant to be an historical document, or a list of liturgical and religious do's and dont's.  It was sent by God so that we could learn who He is, who we are, and how we can restore our broken relationship with Him.  

Jesus hated religion, because religion lowers people to the least common denominator of habitual behavior or liturgy or hoops to jump through or whatever you want to call religious activity.  The Bible says that each of us is God's masterpiece(Eph 2:10).  Why would he make us so wonderfully complex and then reduce us to x number of things to do to get to heaven?  He created us with an intellect and I believe he wants us to use it to discover Him on a relational level, not a religious level.

Now to directly answer your questions in the original post.  God did not create Adam and Eve as automatons living in blind faith.  He created them with free will to choose to obey his command not to eat from one tree in the garden.  Without that choice, they would have been as good as automatons.  Do I believe they would have eventually chose to eat from the tree if Satan had not done the tempting?  Yes I do.  But Satan sped up the fall with his tempting.  

You ask why the devil is "bad" for offering an opportunity to know the truth.  Don't forget that the opportunity was always there.  Satan just made it look real attractive. Satan didn't own the ability to grant the knowledge and he didn't really care if the people had it or not.  He was just trying to hurt God the only way he can...by hurting the objects of God's love, us.   Satan is bad because he relentlessly tempts us to compromise what we know is right.  Think about any sin in your life, even though you know it's wrong, you do it because you perceive some good from it, monetary gain, pleasure or power. That is why sin is so successful, it always promises some perceived good or gain, but the consequences always disappoint, and leave us separated from God, just like Adam and Eve in the garden.  Read how their relationship with God changed after they did wrong.

Satan has never once "made" anyone sin.  He tempts us incrementally with perceived good or gain until our own choice does us in.  We do this daily with little sins.  On a grand scale a whole nation can be duped into thinking racial or religious or ideological extermination is "good".

The bottom line is God loves you and wants a relationship with you, not a religion with you.

I pray you find peace with Him through His Son.

MJ


Link Posted: 4/14/2009 9:42:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By limaxray:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By limaxray:
Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
I am trying to understand why Christians are comfortable with even the first few pages of the bible.

Are you comfortable with the fact that God would rather you live within Eden in blind faith and ignorance?

Why is the devil "bad" for offering an opportunity to know the truth and seek knowledge?


   


A)  Show where Adam and Eve were ignorant.  The ONE thing, the only thing, they were not allowed to do was eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  Not tree of knowledge, period, but the one that made them understand––and be able to pick between––good and evil.  

They had their chance for life in Paradise, and they blew it.

The result was that since God is good, and nothing but good, then evil cannot abide in His presence.  Since they disobeyed God, they made their choice on which they would choose––good, or evil.  And what followed was the consequences of their actions, not the whim of a fickle God.

Since you seem to have come to a forgone conclusion, riddle me this:  if God was so harsh as to kick them out of Paradise for one little mistake, why, then, did he sacrifice His own Son to bring us back closer to him?

B)  Yes, the devil was "bad;"  that's why he's called the Devil, the Evil One, etc.  I thought that one was covered in first-grade Sunday school.


Or did God's plan unfold exactly as intended, why was satan roaming around paradise to tempt, if evil couldn't possibly be in the presence of God?


Oooooh....that gets into a bunch of Calvinist predestination philosophy that always makes my head hurt.

Your point, I think, can be asked and answered like this:  God wants us to love Him, but it must be freely given.  In order to be freely given, God had to give Adam and Eve the chance to choose to love and obey Him....or not.  In order to do that, yes, the devil must be allowed in the Garden to tempt them.

Here's where the head-hurting starts:  Did Adam and Eve ever have a chance?  Did God give them the chance to sin, and therefore took the chance that they wouldn't, or did he know they wouldn't measure up, and as a result their choices didn't really mean much, since God put exactly the right temptation in their path, knowing they wouldn't pass the test, so we could therefore have the opportunity to accept Christ as our Savior?

Beats me; that thinking is WAY above my pay grade.  All I know is that the Bible repeatedly says that God cannot put up with sin, and shuns it.  Since Adam and Eve sinned, they had to go.

I guess to be more accurate I need to change "evil cannot abide in His presence" to "He cannot tolerate sin in His presence."


I appreciate the honest answer at least, it's reasonable when christians simply conclude something is a difficult question and they really don't know the answer to it.

Link Posted: 4/14/2009 10:21:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bullsi:
Originally Posted By limaxray:

No, God cast them out because they DISOBEYED Him.  "Don't touch that."  They touched that.  Not that hard to understand.  Has nothing to do with how self-aware they were.

God established that rule because he wanted to save them from the knowledge of evil.  Sort of like I don't necessarily want my first-grader to understand what child abuse is, so I protect him from it.  




Sooo if your first grader became curious and learned what child abuse is you would just kick him out of your house then have another son and kill him so your first son could come back home.? why not just forgive the first son right off the bat and skip all the hooplah.


Nope. Analogy FAIL.  

There was no death before sin (the choice to disobey the Creator). The price for sin is death and eternal separation from God.  So, we die.  The only way that that death isn't eternal, is for somebody who hadn't sinned to be killed in your place.  Thus, Jesus.  The physical death, we still experience, but we now have the chance and the CHOICE to not be eternally separated from God.  Adam and Eve seemed pretty big on choice in the Garden of Eden.  God provided a way for all of us to choose BACK.  This should be exciting news, not derision worthy news!
Link Posted: 4/14/2009 1:03:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:

Originally Posted By garandman:
Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
I am trying to understand why Christians are comfortable with even the first few pages of the bible.

Are you comfortable with the fact that God would rather you live within Eden in blind faith and ignorance?

Why is the devil "bad" for offering an opportunity to know the truth and seek knowledge?


   


I've started several different responses, but your tone strongly suggests to me you really aren't looking for answers. As such, no answer would possibly be accepted by you .

"The fool has said in his heart "No, God."


Not true - I respect both choices, I'm an agnostic:

God can be seen as an agent of a system that is built to enslave the mind to maintain order.

The devil seeks to free one's mind with the inevitability of chaos and disorder.

The devil's logic seems to be neither right nor wrong. (It is only "wrong" if you make it "wrong".) Thereare no rules because rules can be broken. What is impossible todaymight be possible tomorrow.

God says that the absence of God is sin. (Things are"wrong" regardless of if you think it is "wrong" or not.) There are rulesbecause certain things just "are". What will be will be.

My mind is made up as to which side I pick. I am just trying to get an insight as to why anyone would pick the other side.

I believe knowledge and faith are truly incompatible (and mutually exculsive) and that there is no way either side can make a compromise with the other.

We will disagree but it provides stimulating thought and thought provoking discussion.

 
My question to you is, All that you consider as knowledge, does it not take faith to believe it?  Do you believe that George Washington was a US president?  How do you really know for sure, were you there to see him in office?  Or do you believe the history books?  It's not a matter of faith not being compatible with knowledge because we put faith into 95% of everything we believe to be fact, and it would be rediculous to only believe in the things that we have experienced for ourselves.

But if you don't buy into the Christian God thing then that's your decision, but to claim that you only rely on fact and no faith is involved then that is nearly impossible because we all believe in many things that we have not personally experienced.  I believe that my birthday is the date that I was told by my parents, but I don't remember that day and I have faith that it is that day that I was born.  See where I am going with this?

Link Posted: 4/14/2009 3:03:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/14/2009 3:04:48 PM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:

Originally Posted By garandman:
I've started several different responses, but your tone strongly suggests to me you really aren't looking for answers. As such, no answer would possibly be accepted by you .

"The fool has said in his heart "No, God."


Not true - I respect both choices, I'm an agnostic:



 


And as an agnostic, your whole worldview says its not possible TO know.

Based on your presuppositions, its absurb for you even to ask this question, to try to know what your worldview says is unknowable. Respectfully, there is a schizoprenia in your worldview.

As such, your debate is with yourself. Until you settle that, it would be unproductive to give a rationale when your worldview is one of pure irrationalism.





Link Posted: 4/14/2009 4:59:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/14/2009 5:09:14 PM EDT by limaxray]
Originally Posted By bullsi:
Originally Posted By limaxray:

No, God cast them out because they DISOBEYED Him.  "Don't touch that."  They touched that.  Not that hard to understand.  Has nothing to do with how self-aware they were.

God established that rule because he wanted to save them from the knowledge of evil.  Sort of like I don't necessarily want my first-grader to understand what child abuse is, so I protect him from it.  




Sooo if your first grader became curious and learned what child abuse is you would just kick him out of your house then have another son and kill him so your first son could come back home.? why not just forgive the first son right off the bat and skip all the hooplah.


Wow, talk about straw-man arguments.  

You passed over my argument completely and went with the "Christians are Taliban" response.  Nice try.

A) My first-grader would only know about child abuse if someone abused him.  Then he'd be without a dad, because I would be in jail for premeditated murder.

B)  A better analogy.  Let's say I live in New Orleans and I have a 12 year old son that I'm trying to protect from the corrosive mental effects of pornography and the objectification of women.

So I tell him, "Stay away from Bourbon Street at all costs."

Now, he's got some friends who convince him that it'll be alright to go down there just for a little bit. So he does. And sees all the things that I didn't want him to see about the sexualization of women.

I wind up grounding him for a year.

Have I grounded him because he saw what he wasn't supposed to see, or because he did what he wasn't supposed to do?

C)  What has been seen, cannot be unseen.  One of my priorties as a parent is to protect my kids from information and ideas until such time as they are mature enough to handle it emotionally, physically, spiritually and mentally.

I wouldn't make jokes about sex with kids when they were 12, because they weren't mature enough to handle it, spiritually developed enough to not have it poison their worldview, emotionally developed enough to not get deeply embarrassed by it, or mentally able to grasp some of the finer concepts about it and how they should deal with the subject amongst their peers, their parents, their elders, or the opposite sex.

But, I now make those jokes all the time with my 18yo, but not my 14yo.  Why?  Because the older one can handle it, and the younger one, not so much, yet.

So, try again.
Link Posted: 4/14/2009 5:08:50 PM EDT
Literally.
Link Posted: 4/14/2009 5:39:30 PM EDT
So I tell him, "Stay away from Bourbon Street at all costs."

Now, he's got some friends who convince him that it'll be alright to go down there just for a little bit. So he does. And sees all the things that I didn't want him to see about the sexualization of women.


If you really wanted to protect your child from Bourbon street why would you have him being around friends you knew would tempt him and deceive him into going there, and leave him unchaperoned with those friends around?  
Satan was a lot more than a bad friend to adam and eve, he was their mortal enemy. Would you leave a mortal enemy, say a child molester alone with your child? You wouldn't unless you intended for that child's innocence to be compromised.
Link Posted: 4/14/2009 5:42:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/14/2009 5:51:10 PM EDT by limaxray]
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
So I tell him, "Stay away from Bourbon Street at all costs."

Now, he's got some friends who convince him that it'll be alright to go down there just for a little bit. So he does. And sees all the things that I didn't want him to see about the sexualization of women.


If you really wanted to protect your child from Bourbon street why would you have him being around friends you knew would tempt him and deceive him into going there, and leave him unchaperoned with those friends around?  
Satan was a lot more than a bad friend to adam and eve, he was their mortal enemy. Would you leave a mortal enemy, say a child molester alone with your child? You wouldn't unless you intended for that child's innocence to be compromised.


And at 12, I expect my child to start making decisions on his own.  One of them is whether or not he's going to obey me.

Where are you going with this?  I see nothing but outlandish, straw-man arguments that don't make any sense after my posts.

ETA:  Okay, re-read it, and I think I see what you're trying to get at.  Still a straw-man, but I'll play.

Do I trust my kid to obey me?  If I trust him, am I going to assume he knows A) to obey me, and B) he has the free will to make the decisions necessary to meet A).

If I don't trust him, or if I want to intentionally stunt his mental, emotional, and spiritual growth, I coddle him, protect him, keep him from ALL harm, and most importantly, don't let him make any decisions because he might make them wrong.

God created us with free will.  Why?  Because He wants us to love Him, and love has to be freely given––or not. Which means that when the devil––who's purposes are opposite of God––steps in, God could crush him and protect us.  But that means we don't have to CHOOSE to love Him because we wouldn't know any better.  Or, He could let us do what we will and engage in freely loving Him.  Of course, the flip side to freely loving Him is to choose not to.  That's the cool part––Christianity is about you choosing to love, not about us or God forcing it down your throat.
Link Posted: 4/14/2009 6:11:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By limaxray:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
So I tell him, "Stay away from Bourbon Street at all costs."

Now, he's got some friends who convince him that it'll be alright to go down there just for a little bit. So he does. And sees all the things that I didn't want him to see about the sexualization of women.


If you really wanted to protect your child from Bourbon street why would you have him being around friends you knew would tempt him and deceive him into going there, and leave him unchaperoned with those friends around?  
Satan was a lot more than a bad friend to adam and eve, he was their mortal enemy. Would you leave a mortal enemy, say a child molester alone with your child? You wouldn't unless you intended for that child's innocence to be compromised.


And at 12, I expect my child to start making decisions on his own.  One of them is whether or not he's going to obey me.

Where are you going with this?  I see nothing but outlandish, straw-man arguments that don't make any sense after my posts.

ETA:  Okay, re-read it, and I think I see what you're trying to get at.  Still a straw-man, but I'll play.

Do I trust my kid to obey me?  If I trust him, am I going to assume he knows A) to obey me, and B) he has the free will to make the decisions necessary to meet A).

If I don't trust him, or if I want to intentionally stunt his mental, emotional, and spiritual growth, I coddle him, protect him, keep him from ALL harm, and most importantly, don't let him make any decisions because he might make them wrong.

God created us with free will.  Why?  Because He wants us to love Him, and love has to be freely given––or not. Which means that when the devil––who's purposes are opposite of God––steps in, God could crush him and protect us.  But that means we don't have to CHOOSE to love Him because we wouldn't know any better.  Or, He could let us do what we will and engage in freely loving Him.  Of course, the flip side to freely loving Him is to choose not to.  That's the cool part––Christianity is about you choosing to love, not about us or God forcing it down your throat.


So how are people going to live in Heaven without Him doing that there, or will free will be gone?
Link Posted: 4/14/2009 6:51:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:

So how are people going to live in Heaven without Him doing that there, or will free will be gone?


Really?  Seriously?

I think you can answer this one on your own.

Link Posted: 4/14/2009 7:01:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By limaxray:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:

So how are people going to live in Heaven without Him doing that there, or will free will be gone?


Really?  Seriously?

I think you can answer this one on your own.



I posted that for your or anyone else's answer.
Link Posted: 4/14/2009 8:24:47 PM EDT
Why would an all-knowing creator create a system where the choice of one condems many? Why create suffering via condemnation at all? Why not create a perfect world while in the creating mode? Couldn't an all-knowing/ all-powerful god just create sheep from the start and leave the goats out?
Link Posted: 4/14/2009 9:59:42 PM EDT
Ok....here we go.

Your first mistake.  Attempting a literalist interpretation of Old Testament stories.

Who really knows if there was a tree or even a garden for that matter.  It could just be visual imagery in a story to help people remember it. In the end, is it really important? What we should find important from the story is that mankind entered into a covenant through Adam with God.  Gods only condition for Adam was to obey his commands.  Adams only requirement was to listen to the voice of God and be obedient.

What did Adam do?  He failed.  How did he fail? He listened to someone else. In this case, Eve.  Did they actually eat a piece of fruit from some tree?  Is there now some magically hidden garden with flaming spinning swords and cherubims guarding its entrance somewhere in the middle east?  I don't know.  It doesn't really matter.  What the author of Genesis was attempting to do was relate a story of creation, an entering of mankind into a covenant relationship with God, and mankinds failure to uphold his part of the covenant.

Interesting side bar.  Some could argue that the actual "eating of the fruit" was not the worst sin committed by Adam.  When confronted by God and given the chance to confess his sin, he tries to pass it off on Eve.  It is after this that they are "cast out of the garden".

The entire Old Testament is full of stories relating to the origins of the Israelites and the many covenants that were entered into by the Fathers of Judaism and God.  All of which, mankind was eventually incapable of keeping.  In every instance, God gives man a break, tosses man a bone/lifeline and tries something else.  

Abram.  Does a great job obeying God.  God says "GO", Abram goes.  He isn't real good in the trust/faith department though.  He gets impatient, listens to Sarai (instead of trusting and listening to God), hooks up with Hagar....and viola....Ishmael.  Ooooops, covenant broken...

It isn't until Gen 22 that Abraham gets the big picture and not only obeys God but trusts in Him as well.

This cycle of God and man entering into a covenant, man breaking the covenant, man making atonement and entering into a new covenant with God is repeated time and time again.

The stories of Isaac, Jacob and Esau, Joseph and his brothers, etc..are examples of oral traditions that were passed down through the generations and eventually ended up getting written down because it was important for the people at that time.  There really aren't any extra-biblical texts that can cross reference any events before the period of the Kings.

Are these stories fact? Fiction? A combination?  No one can prove any of it.  The bottom line is that these stories were important enough to the ancient peoples that they were eventually written down and included in the canon of scripture.  They are important today because they teach lessons on how we should respond to God and how we should try to live our lives.  

Any attempt at a literalist interpretation of Genesis is going to be faced with some serious challenges.
Link Posted: 4/15/2009 9:19:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bullsi:
Why would an all-knowing creator create a system where the choice of one condems many? Why create suffering via condemnation at all? Why not create a perfect world while in the creating mode? Couldn't an all-knowing/ all-powerful god just create sheep from the start and leave the goats out?


Why not ?
why does God have to act to your standards?

Link Posted: 4/15/2009 10:14:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By garandman:
And as an agnostic, your whole worldview says its not possible TO know.


yes, but you can still believe something based on evidence ( or lack thereof)

Do you believe faith is required to believe in God, or is it provable?   If faith is required, you are also an agnostic.   Specifically an agnostic theist.

I'm an agnostic atheist (aka weak atheism).  

The true fence post sitter agnostics are rare as hen's teeth.

Link Posted: 4/16/2009 12:59:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dino:
Originally Posted By garandman:
And as an agnostic, your whole worldview says its not possible TO know.


yes, but you can still believe something based on evidence ( or lack thereof)

Do you believe faith is required to believe in God, or is it provable?   If faith is required, you are also an agnostic.   Specifically an agnostic theist.

I'm an agnostic atheist (aka weak atheism).  

The true fence post sitter agnostics are rare as hen's teeth.



I had to visit dictionary.com for that one. Most of what it says is that agnostic means you doubt, rather than simply don't have tangible proof.  I have no physical or scientific proof of God, yet I have no doubt He exists due to my faith. At best that makes me fit maybe 50% of each definition that I just read.
Link Posted: 4/16/2009 8:53:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By limaxray:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:

So how are people going to live in Heaven without Him doing that there, or will free will be gone?


Really?  Seriously?

I think you can answer this one on your own.



I posted that for your or anyone else's answer.


that never seems to get answered.
People are bound to fall with free will, so God couldn't just create a perfect world, unless we were all mindless robots, yet somehow people will supposedly live sin free in Heaven and have free will. So obviously even with free will there's a way all could have lived sin free in harmony with God from the start. Either that or people won't have free will in Heaven.
Link Posted: 4/16/2009 9:00:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By walttx:
Originally Posted By bullsi:
Why would an all-knowing creator create a system where the choice of one condems many? Why create suffering via condemnation at all? Why not create a perfect world while in the creating mode? Couldn't an all-knowing/ all-powerful god just create sheep from the start and leave the goats out?


Why not ?
why does God have to act to your standards?



He doesn't have to but obviously if God's will is for all to love Him then there would likely be a lot more believers if the world actually walked the walk of all the talk about how loving God is and how He desires to be in our lives. Creating a world and then hiding from it doesn't seem like much of a way to draw people close does it.
At some point common sense and rational thoughts will really make someone who really seeks answers, someone who doesn't just believe with blind faith, at least go through this stage of questioning things.
Link Posted: 4/16/2009 10:02:30 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GoGop:
Originally Posted By Dino:
Originally Posted By garandman:
And as an agnostic, your whole worldview says its not possible TO know.


yes, but you can still believe something based on evidence ( or lack thereof)

Do you believe faith is required to believe in God, or is it provable?   If faith is required, you are also an agnostic.   Specifically an agnostic theist.

I'm an agnostic atheist (aka weak atheism).  

The true fence post sitter agnostics are rare as hen's teeth.



I had to visit dictionary.com for that one. Most of what it says is that agnostic means you doubt, rather than simply don't have tangible proof.  I have no physical or scientific proof of God, yet I have no doubt He exists due to my faith. At best that makes me fit maybe 50% of each definition that I just read.


Great point that I never thought of before.

Link Posted: 4/16/2009 3:24:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By walttx:
Originally Posted By bullsi:
Why would an all-knowing creator create a system where the choice of one condems many? Why create suffering via condemnation at all? Why not create a perfect world while in the creating mode? Couldn't an all-knowing/ all-powerful god just create sheep from the start and leave the goats out?


Why not ?
why does God have to act to your standards?



He doesn't have to but obviously if God's will is for all to love Him then there would likely be a lot more believers if the world actually walked the walk of all the talk about how loving God is and how He desires to be in our lives. Creating a world and then hiding from it doesn't seem like much of a way to draw people close does it.
At some point common sense and rational thoughts will really make someone who really seeks answers, someone who doesn't just believe with blind faith, at least go through this stage of questioning things.




 So you think all that believe in a God lack common sense and rational thoughts.
Pretty arrogant statement to make, But think what you want.

Link Posted: 4/16/2009 4:54:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By limaxray:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:

So how are people going to live in Heaven without Him doing that there, or will free will be gone?


Really?  Seriously?

I think you can answer this one on your own.



I posted that for your or anyone else's answer.


that never seems to get answered.
People are bound to fall with free will, so God couldn't just create a perfect world, unless we were all mindless robots, yet somehow people will supposedly live sin free in Heaven and have free will. So obviously even with free will there's a way all could have lived sin free in harmony with God from the start. Either that or people won't have free will in Heaven.


Actually, my point was that you should be able to figure it out on your own.

First point:  Heaven, will not be Earth.  Saying "If there are temptations on Earth, there will be temptations in Heaven," isn't exactly logical.

Second point:  Do we have free will here, or not?  Why would God take that away from us when we go to heaven?  If he wouldn't want mindless robots here, why would he want them in Heaven, closer to Him?

Heaven is the REWARD for believing in Him and following, to the best of your ability, the Lord.    Think of it as graduate school; you'll know better than to sin there, and more importantly, you won't have the desire to.
Link Posted: 4/16/2009 4:56:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By walttx:
Originally Posted By bullsi:
Why would an all-knowing creator create a system where the choice of one condems many? Why create suffering via condemnation at all? Why not create a perfect world while in the creating mode? Couldn't an all-knowing/ all-powerful god just create sheep from the start and leave the goats out?


Why not ?
why does God have to act to your standards?



He doesn't have to but obviously if God's will is for all to love Him then there would likely be a lot more believers if the world actually walked the walk of all the talk about how loving God is and how He desires to be in our lives. Creating a world and then hiding from it doesn't seem like much of a way to draw people close does it.
At some point common sense and rational thoughts will really make someone who really seeks answers, someone who doesn't just believe with blind faith, at least go through this stage of questioning things.


What makes you think God is hiding from the world?  I see evidence of His active participation all the time.
Link Posted: 4/16/2009 7:23:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/16/2009 7:33:28 PM EDT by garandman]
Originally Posted By Dino:
Originally Posted By garandman:
And as an agnostic, your whole worldview says its not possible TO know.


yes, but you can still believe something based on evidence ( or lack thereof)

Do you believe faith is required to believe in God, or is it provable?   If faith is required, you are also an agnostic.   Specifically an agnostic theist.

I'm an agnostic atheist (aka weak atheism).  

The true fence post sitter agnostics are rare as hen's teeth.



Agnostic - one who holds that the existence of anything beyond material phenomena e.g. of a First Cause, or of noumena, cannot be known. (1)   It derives from the Greek, the prefix "a" meaning without, and "gnosis" or "knowledge."   Literally, Without knowledge. Not partial knowledge, or uncertain knowledge, but WITHOUT knowledge.  Knowlege is NOT POSSIBLE regarding immaterial noumena.

As such, "agnostic theist" is an irrational term, and is NOT faith based. Biblical faith is beleif in the unseen AND  the belief the unseen CAN be known.

To believe in the unseen AND to think the unseen  cannot be known is the defintion of irrationalism.


(1) Oxford Dictionary, 1933
Link Posted: 4/16/2009 7:37:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/16/2009 7:42:24 PM EDT by Patmos]
Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:
How Do You all Interpret Genesis?  

I am trying to understand why Christians are comfortable with even the first few pages of the bible.

Are you comfortable with the fact that God would rather you live within Eden in blind faith and ignorance?

Why is the devil "bad" for offering an opportunity to know the truth and seek knowledge?





Freedom of choose for two persons that where accountable to the Lord as everyone else that has reached the age of accountilbilty to this day. Freedom of choose whether to obey or disobey the only real Lord of this universe=Father, Son/Jesus, and Holy Ghost.


Good book to read after 1st and 2nd Bibles: Playing with fire. Jay Carty. 1994.
Link Posted: 4/16/2009 7:53:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By limaxray:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By limaxray:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:

So how are people going to live in Heaven without Him doing that there, or will free will be gone?


Really?  Seriously?

I think you can answer this one on your own.



I posted that for your or anyone else's answer.


that never seems to get answered.
People are bound to fall with free will, so God couldn't just create a perfect world, unless we were all mindless robots, yet somehow people will supposedly live sin free in Heaven and have free will. So obviously even with free will there's a way all could have lived sin free in harmony with God from the start. Either that or people won't have free will in Heaven.


Actually, my point was that you should be able to figure it out on your own.

First point:  Heaven, will not be Earth.  Saying "If there are temptations on Earth, there will be temptations in Heaven," isn't exactly logical.

Second point:  Do we have free will here, or not?  Why would God take that away from us when we go to heaven?  If he wouldn't want mindless robots here, why would he want them in Heaven, closer to Him?

Heaven is the REWARD for believing in Him and following, to the best of your ability, the Lord.    Think of it as graduate school; you'll know better than to sin there, and more importantly, you won't have the desire to.



Then why didn't God just not have the tree of life in the garden and destroyed the tempter satan to start with if it's possible to live with God with free will and without sin? As it will be in Heaven. It's a question that should be answered when people say God had to make the world full of suffering, that all this was the only way.

So people will just know better than to sin in Heaven and that will be enough
Link Posted: 4/16/2009 8:00:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By walttx:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By walttx:
Originally Posted By bullsi:
Why would an all-knowing creator create a system where the choice of one condems many? Why create suffering via condemnation at all? Why not create a perfect world while in the creating mode? Couldn't an all-knowing/ all-powerful god just create sheep from the start and leave the goats out?


Why not ?
why does God have to act to your standards?



He doesn't have to but obviously if God's will is for all to love Him then there would likely be a lot more believers if the world actually walked the walk of all the talk about how loving God is and how He desires to be in our lives. Creating a world and then hiding from it doesn't seem like much of a way to draw people close does it.
At some point common sense and rational thoughts will really make someone who really seeks answers, someone who doesn't just believe with blind faith, at least go through this stage of questioning things.




 So you think all that believe in a God lack common sense and rational thoughts.
Pretty arrogant statement to make, But think what you want.



what other conclusion is there to have about people who suggest people shouldn't ever question God? It's rational to have these questions if you're to believe in God with more than blind faith isn't it.
Link Posted: 4/16/2009 8:00:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By limaxray:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By walttx:
Originally Posted By bullsi:
Why would an all-knowing creator create a system where the choice of one condems many? Why create suffering via condemnation at all? Why not create a perfect world while in the creating mode? Couldn't an all-knowing/ all-powerful god just create sheep from the start and leave the goats out?


Why not ?
why does God have to act to your standards?



He doesn't have to but obviously if God's will is for all to love Him then there would likely be a lot more believers if the world actually walked the walk of all the talk about how loving God is and how He desires to be in our lives. Creating a world and then hiding from it doesn't seem like much of a way to draw people close does it.
At some point common sense and rational thoughts will really make someone who really seeks answers, someone who doesn't just believe with blind faith, at least go through this stage of questioning things.


What makes you think God is hiding from the world?  I see evidence of His active participation all the time.


I guess it depends on someone's definition of active participation.
Link Posted: 4/17/2009 2:29:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By walttx:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By walttx:
Originally Posted By bullsi:
Why would an all-knowing creator create a system where the choice of one condems many? Why create suffering via condemnation at all? Why not create a perfect world while in the creating mode? Couldn't an all-knowing/ all-powerful god just create sheep from the start and leave the goats out?


Why not ?
why does God have to act to your standards?



He doesn't have to but obviously if God's will is for all to love Him then there would likely be a lot more believers if the world actually walked the walk of all the talk about how loving God is and how He desires to be in our lives. Creating a world and then hiding from it doesn't seem like much of a way to draw people close does it.
At some point common sense and rational thoughts will really make someone who really seeks answers, someone who doesn't just believe with blind faith, at least go through this stage of questioning things.




 So you think all that believe in a God lack common sense and rational thoughts.
Pretty arrogant statement to make, But think what you want.



what other conclusion is there to have about people who suggest people shouldn't ever question God? It's rational to have these questions if you're to believe in God with more than blind faith isn't it.


I have never ran across anyone that said you shouldn't question God.
It is rational to have questions, but some questions we will not be able to find answers.
I don't consider my faith blind faith.
Link Posted: 4/17/2009 4:20:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/17/2009 4:21:27 PM EDT by limaxray]
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By limaxray:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By limaxray:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:

So how are people going to live in Heaven without Him doing that there, or will free will be gone?


Really?  Seriously?

I think you can answer this one on your own.



I posted that for your or anyone else's answer.


that never seems to get answered.
People are bound to fall with free will, so God couldn't just create a perfect world, unless we were all mindless robots, yet somehow people will supposedly live sin free in Heaven and have free will. So obviously even with free will there's a way all could have lived sin free in harmony with God from the start. Either that or people won't have free will in Heaven.


Actually, my point was that you should be able to figure it out on your own.

First point:  Heaven, will not be Earth.  Saying "If there are temptations on Earth, there will be temptations in Heaven," isn't exactly logical.

Second point:  Do we have free will here, or not?  Why would God take that away from us when we go to heaven?  If he wouldn't want mindless robots here, why would he want them in Heaven, closer to Him?

Heaven is the REWARD for believing in Him and following, to the best of your ability, the Lord.    Think of it as graduate school; you'll know better than to sin there, and more importantly, you won't have the desire to.



Then why didn't God just not have the tree of life in the garden and destroyed the tempter satan to start with if it's possible to live with God with free will and without sin? As it will be in Heaven. It's a question that should be answered when people say God had to make the world full of suffering, that all this was the only way.

So people will just know better than to sin in Heaven and that will be enough


Do the angels have free will?

If we are made in God's image, wouldn't, by extension, the angels also have it?

And if the angels have free will, wouldn't God also not want to inhibit their choices, because then they are nothing more than a tool for Him and not free beings?

And if the angels have free will, wouldn't it be possible that some of them might choose to go against God's plan?

And if that's the case, wouldn't one of the best ways to destroy or undermine God's plan be to tempt A&E into doing the ONE THING God told them not to?  (Keep in mind, God allowed them to eat from the Tree of Life, giving them essentially immortality; it wasn't like he was asking them to do THAT much.)

So, what you're asking is, "Why didn't God kill Satan up front for not following God's plan?"

And the answer is––wouldn't that cause A&E and the other, non-rebelling angels to fear, rather than love, God?  And would that be in keeping with God's plan of love for the world?  

Yes, it's a plan of love.  Look at it this way––he built a garden, stocked it with every life-form imaginable (literally!), placed Adam there, created a companion for him, gave them immortality (remember, there are two trees mentioned in Genesis, the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge, and they were only prohibited from eating from one of those), gave them honest work, interacted with them all the time (Gen 3:8:  " Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden."), and otherwise set them up with a pretty sweet gig.

Does that sound like a God of anger and vengeance?  I don't think so.  He's those things too, but primarily, he's a God of Love.   Remember the most often-quoted verse in the Bible, John 3:16:  For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.   Would you sacrifice your son for hate, or for love?  

Basically, the answer to most of your questions boil down to freedom of choice and how that, in a way, limits God's actions to accomplish His goals.  If you have it, and you know about the Lord, and you choose not to love Him or obey Him, that's entirely your choice.  But, as a reminder, actions have consequences.
Link Posted: 4/17/2009 8:39:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By walttx:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By walttx:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By walttx:
Originally Posted By bullsi:
Why would an all-knowing creator create a system where the choice of one condems many? Why create suffering via condemnation at all? Why not create a perfect world while in the creating mode? Couldn't an all-knowing/ all-powerful god just create sheep from the start and leave the goats out?


Why not ?
why does God have to act to your standards?



He doesn't have to but obviously if God's will is for all to love Him then there would likely be a lot more believers if the world actually walked the walk of all the talk about how loving God is and how He desires to be in our lives. Creating a world and then hiding from it doesn't seem like much of a way to draw people close does it.
At some point common sense and rational thoughts will really make someone who really seeks answers, someone who doesn't just believe with blind faith, at least go through this stage of questioning things.




 So you think all that believe in a God lack common sense and rational thoughts.
Pretty arrogant statement to make, But think what you want.



what other conclusion is there to have about people who suggest people shouldn't ever question God? It's rational to have these questions if you're to believe in God with more than blind faith isn't it.


I have never ran across anyone that said you shouldn't question God.
It is rational to have questions, but some questions we will not be able to find answers.
I don't consider my faith blind faith.


I interpret people who say "who is anyone to question God's plan" as saying just believe and not ask questions.
Link Posted: 4/17/2009 8:55:19 PM EDT
Do the angels have free will?

If we are made in God's image, wouldn't, by extension, the angels also have it?

And if the angels have free will, wouldn't God also not want to inhibit their choices, because then they are nothing more than a tool for Him and not free beings?

And if the angels have free will, wouldn't it be possible that some of them might choose to go against God's plan?

And if that's the case, wouldn't one of the best ways to destroy or undermine God's plan be to tempt A&E into doing the ONE THING God told them not to? (Keep in mind, God allowed them to eat from the Tree of Life, giving them essentially immortality; it wasn't like he was asking them to do THAT much.)

So, what you're asking is, "Why didn't God kill Satan up front for not following God's plan?"

And the answer is––wouldn't that cause A&E and the other, non-rebelling angels to fear, rather than love, God? And would that be in keeping with God's plan of love for the world?

Yes, it's a plan of love. Look at it this way––he built a garden, stocked it with every life-form imaginable (literally!), placed Adam there, created a companion for him, gave them immortality (remember, there are two trees mentioned in Genesis, the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge, and they were only prohibited from eating from one of those), gave them honest work, interacted with them all the time (Gen 3:8: " Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden."), and otherwise set them up with a pretty sweet gig.

Does that sound like a God of anger and vengeance? I don't think so. He's those things too, but primarily, he's a God of Love. Remember the most often-quoted verse in the Bible, John 3:16: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. Would you sacrifice your son for hate, or for love?

Basically, the answer to most of your questions boil down to freedom of choice and how that, in a way, limits God's actions to accomplish His goals. If you have it, and you know about the Lord, and you choose not to love Him or obey Him, that's entirely your choice. But, as a reminder, actions have consequences.


Doesn't the Bible say that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom?

As for loving God and not fearing God, I guess eternal punishment in he!! isn't supposed to be feared? God doesn't want to force people to love him, or rely on him, but yet it's either God or eternal punishment?

not certain what that's suggesting

But all that still doesn't made a difference in what I wrote, that if God can have people live without sin "with free will" in heaven, then He could have made it that way from the start.
I simply don't see how anyone will have free will in Heaven and not sin there to. If it's possible, it could have just been a perfect world for us from the start.
The fact that the Bible says that the memory of those who perish will even be gone in Heaven tells me that God will manipulate people's minds there. If you're so certain people will be themselves in Heaven, then if say someone's husband doesn't make it to Heaven, according to the Bible, his wife won't even remember he existed. Doesn't sound to me like that wife is going to be herself again in Heaven. Or lots of other people. How else is God going to condition people's minds so they exist in Heaven?

Link Posted: 4/18/2009 10:19:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:

I interpret people who say "who is anyone to question God's plan" as saying just believe and not ask questions.

That's not what they mean at all.

What they mean is, are we at the same level of God, and if not, how are we to even begin to understand His plan?  

Doesn't mean you can't ask questions––that's how (as I mentioned before) Copernicus, Keppler, and Newton all got around to making themselves famous.  

But it does mean that A) at some point, you're going to reach a place where you have to say "I don't know," and be satisfied with that, because you can't possibly begin to understand the mind of God, but more importantly and commonly B)  if you believe in God, and therefore that He has a plan, then complaining that it's not what you want (or that it's inconvenient for you) is pretty arrogant, and maybe you shouldn't do that.  

Sort of like the guy who hires a plumber with 25 years experience, then complains that he's not doing it right the whole time.
Link Posted: 4/18/2009 10:20:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2009 10:40:17 AM EDT by limaxray]
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Do the angels have free will?

If we are made in God's image, wouldn't, by extension, the angels also have it?

And if the angels have free will, wouldn't God also not want to inhibit their choices, because then they are nothing more than a tool for Him and not free beings?

And if the angels have free will, wouldn't it be possible that some of them might choose to go against God's plan?

And if that's the case, wouldn't one of the best ways to destroy or undermine God's plan be to tempt A&E into doing the ONE THING God told them not to? (Keep in mind, God allowed them to eat from the Tree of Life, giving them essentially immortality; it wasn't like he was asking them to do THAT much.)

So, what you're asking is, "Why didn't God kill Satan up front for not following God's plan?"

And the answer is––wouldn't that cause A&E and the other, non-rebelling angels to fear, rather than love, God? And would that be in keeping with God's plan of love for the world?

Yes, it's a plan of love. Look at it this way––he built a garden, stocked it with every life-form imaginable (literally!), placed Adam there, created a companion for him, gave them immortality (remember, there are two trees mentioned in Genesis, the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge, and they were only prohibited from eating from one of those), gave them honest work, interacted with them all the time (Gen 3:8: " Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden."), and otherwise set them up with a pretty sweet gig.

Does that sound like a God of anger and vengeance? I don't think so. He's those things too, but primarily, he's a God of Love. Remember the most often-quoted verse in the Bible, John 3:16: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. Would you sacrifice your son for hate, or for love?

Basically, the answer to most of your questions boil down to freedom of choice and how that, in a way, limits God's actions to accomplish His goals. If you have it, and you know about the Lord, and you choose not to love Him or obey Him, that's entirely your choice. But, as a reminder, actions have consequences.


Doesn't the Bible say that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom?

As for loving God and not fearing God, I guess eternal punishment in he!! isn't supposed to be feared? God doesn't want to force people to love him, or rely on him, but yet it's either God or eternal punishment?

not certain what that's suggesting

But all that still doesn't made a difference in what I wrote, that if God can have people live without sin "with free will" in heaven, then He could have made it that way from the start.
I simply don't see how anyone will have free will in Heaven and not sin there to. If it's possible, it could have just been a perfect world for us from the start.
The fact that the Bible says that the memory of those who perish will even be gone in Heaven tells me that God will manipulate people's minds there. If you're so certain people will be themselves in Heaven, then if say someone's husband doesn't make it to Heaven, according to the Bible, his wife won't even remember he existed. Doesn't sound to me like that wife is going to be herself again in Heaven. Or lots of other people. How else is God going to condition people's minds so they exist in Heaven?



Yes he could have; but that would have defeated the purpose.  

No, God won't "manipulate" people's minds.  It's all about what you will desire.

When I was a small kid, I couldn't wait for Saturday mornings, because I could have all the Captain Crunch I could eat before my parents got up.  I would crave it all week long, get up at like 0600, and start cramming.  Of course, I was in a diabetic coma for the rest of the day, but it was worth it.

Now, in my early 40s, Capt Crunch doesn't have anywhere near the same appeal for me.  Haven't had a box in the house in at least 10 years.  Too sweet, too crunchy, and too rough (like 36 grit sandpaper on the roof of your mouth.)

In other words, I've outgrown the need for sugary-sweet cereals.  And in Heaven, we'll outgrow the need to sin, or rely on each other for support and happiness.  Why?  Because we'll have the perfect substitute for those things––God.  

The same will hold true in Heaven.  God isn't going to modify us by cutting stuff out, we're going to mature and move on to "graduate school" living where even with free will, we won't WANT to fall into temptation.  

We won't want to, because we'll have the one thing missing here––proximity to God and His love.  

As for fear, I'll put it this way....do you have kids?

I use fear all the time as a parent.  Fear of punishment, fear of failure, fear of consequences if they do something stupid or against the rules.  That doesn't mean I don't love them, ever––it means that while they know, at all times, that I will always love them, they know exactly what and where the boundaries and expectations are, and that I'm serious about those them because I'm willing to back them up with unpleasant consequences.

Fear the Lord, yes, because the consequences of crossing the boundaries He sets are eternal, and He's serious about those boundaries.  But that doesn't mean He doesn't love us.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

So, focus on the passages about fearing God if you want, but that's a distraction from the pretty huge fact that God voluntarily sent His only Son to save....YOU.

Seriously.  The same God that created the Heavens and the Earth, that taught the stars to shine and put the planets in motion, the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing God of the Universe, loved you, barkley-addict, enough to DIE for you.  In a horrible manner.  To pay the price tag for YOUR sins. Whether you wanted Him to or not.  Even whether you believe in Him or not.  

I'd say that's a pretty good indication of a God of love.
Link Posted: 4/18/2009 10:58:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Doesn't the Bible say that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom?

As for loving God and not fearing God, I guess eternal punishment in he!! isn't supposed to be feared? God doesn't want to force people to love him, or rely on him, but yet it's either God or eternal punishment?


The phrase "fear of God" does not mean to be "afraid of" God.  God does not want us to be afraid of him, he wants us to enter into a loving relationship with him.  That's what a covenant is, saying I belong to you and you belong to me.  Fear of God in the bible means piety or reverence.  

Yes, one should be afraid of eternal punishment in hell, but that's brought upon oneself by the rejection of God's love and mercy.  Hell is the complete absence of God.  If one decides they will not have a relationship with him, then when they die, they won't have a relationship with him.  Of course, that means the whole furnace of fire with weeping and gnashing of teeth business, but that's the choice one makes.
Link Posted: 4/23/2009 2:05:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2009 2:17:17 PM EDT by barkley-addict]
Originally Posted By limaxray:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Do the angels have free will?

If we are made in God's image, wouldn't, by extension, the angels also have it?

And if the angels have free will, wouldn't God also not want to inhibit their choices, because then they are nothing more than a tool for Him and not free beings?

And if the angels have free will, wouldn't it be possible that some of them might choose to go against God's plan?

And if that's the case, wouldn't one of the best ways to destroy or undermine God's plan be to tempt A&E into doing the ONE THING God told them not to? (Keep in mind, God allowed them to eat from the Tree of Life, giving them essentially immortality; it wasn't like he was asking them to do THAT much.)

So, what you're asking is, "Why didn't God kill Satan up front for not following God's plan?"

And the answer is––wouldn't that cause A&E and the other, non-rebelling angels to fear, rather than love, God? And would that be in keeping with God's plan of love for the world?

Yes, it's a plan of love. Look at it this way––he built a garden, stocked it with every life-form imaginable (literally!), placed Adam there, created a companion for him, gave them immortality (remember, there are two trees mentioned in Genesis, the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge, and they were only prohibited from eating from one of those), gave them honest work, interacted with them all the time (Gen 3:8: " Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden."), and otherwise set them up with a pretty sweet gig.

Does that sound like a God of anger and vengeance? I don't think so. He's those things too, but primarily, he's a God of Love. Remember the most often-quoted verse in the Bible, John 3:16: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. Would you sacrifice your son for hate, or for love?

Basically, the answer to most of your questions boil down to freedom of choice and how that, in a way, limits God's actions to accomplish His goals. If you have it, and you know about the Lord, and you choose not to love Him or obey Him, that's entirely your choice. But, as a reminder, actions have consequences.


Doesn't the Bible say that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom?

As for loving God and not fearing God, I guess eternal punishment in he!! isn't supposed to be feared? God doesn't want to force people to love him, or rely on him, but yet it's either God or eternal punishment?

not certain what that's suggesting

But all that still doesn't made a difference in what I wrote, that if God can have people live without sin "with free will" in heaven, then He could have made it that way from the start.
I simply don't see how anyone will have free will in Heaven and not sin there to. If it's possible, it could have just been a perfect world for us from the start.
The fact that the Bible says that the memory of those who perish will even be gone in Heaven tells me that God will manipulate people's minds there. If you're so certain people will be themselves in Heaven, then if say someone's husband doesn't make it to Heaven, according to the Bible, his wife won't even remember he existed. Doesn't sound to me like that wife is going to be herself again in Heaven. Or lots of other people. How else is God going to condition people's minds so they exist in Heaven?



Yes he could have; but that would have defeated the purpose.  

No, God won't "manipulate" people's minds.  It's all about what you will desire.


When I was a small kid, I couldn't wait for Saturday mornings, because I could have all the Captain Crunch I could eat before my parents got up.  I would crave it all week long, get up at like 0600, and start cramming.  Of course, I was in a diabetic coma for the rest of the day, but it was worth it.

Now, in my early 40s, Capt Crunch doesn't have anywhere near the same appeal for me.  Haven't had a box in the house in at least 10 years.  Too sweet, too crunchy, and too rough (like 36 grit sandpaper on the roof of your mouth.)

In other words, I've outgrown the need for sugary-sweet cereals.  And in Heaven, we'll outgrow the need to sin, or rely on each other for support and happiness.  Why?  Because we'll have the perfect substitute for those things––God.  

The same will hold true in Heaven.  God isn't going to modify us by cutting stuff out, we're going to mature and move on to "graduate school" living where even with free will, we won't WANT to fall into temptation.  

We won't want to, because we'll have the one thing missing here––proximity to God and His love.  

As for fear, I'll put it this way....do you have kids?

I use fear all the time as a parent.  Fear of punishment, fear of failure, fear of consequences if they do something stupid or against the rules.  That doesn't mean I don't love them, ever––it means that while they know, at all times, that I will always love them, they know exactly what and where the boundaries and expectations are, and that I'm serious about those them because I'm willing to back them up with unpleasant consequences.

Fear the Lord, yes, because the consequences of crossing the boundaries He sets are eternal, and He's serious about those boundaries.  But that doesn't mean He doesn't love us.  Quite the opposite, in fact.

So, focus on the passages about fearing God if you want, but that's a distraction from the pretty huge fact that God voluntarily sent His only Son to save....YOU.

Seriously.  The same God that created the Heavens and the Earth, that taught the stars to shine and put the planets in motion, the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing God of the Universe, loved you, barkley-addict, enough to DIE for you.  In a horrible manner.  To pay the price tag for YOUR sins. Whether you wanted Him to or not.  Even whether you believe in Him or not.  

I'd say that's a pretty good indication of a God of love.





what is erasing memories then?


No need to rely on each other for happiness? Is that what love is here on earth, nothing more than a cure for boredom or lonliness, oddly I tend to believe that love here has much more value than that. I've always tended to believe that 1 of the best things about Heaven would be sharing life with God and loved ones in a place of safety and health without ending, a place without sad goodbyes.
God was with adam in the garden of eden but yet he made eve to share life with to and the animals. it seems He thought it was all better shared with many others.


Oddly I thought that was basically the situation with adam and eve in the garden of eden, that they were there with God in a perfect place where He provided everything for them.
But that was adam and eve in the garden of eden, much of my argument though is that in matters of believing in God or believing God is who He says He is, much of what many know isn't that good world, it's a world of pain and suffering and death, why does God really expect people to believe in something when what they really experience is the opposite?


I'd see it all more as love if He really went out of His way to show us love in our very lives, not tell us how it was shown 2,000 years before we were born, never mind all the pain or death you see, that we shouldn't base of beliefs on the things "we actually experience".
I'm at odds with this.
Link Posted: 4/24/2009 9:22:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/24/2009 9:25:35 PM EDT by limaxray]
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
what is erasing memories then?


I have no idea what you're talking about.  


No need to rely on each other for happiness? Is that what love is here on earth, nothing more than a cure for boredom or lonliness,


Don't put words in my mouth or be obtuse.

I didn't say ANYTHING about how "love on earth is nothing more than a cure for boredom."  Show me where I said that.  

What I did say is that the things that bring us happiness on Earth will pale in comparison to the happiness we'll have in Heaven.  Therefore, the things we rely on here, won't matter so much there.  Reading is fundamental.

oddly I tend to believe that love here has much more value than that. I've always tended to believe that 1 of the best things about Heaven would be sharing life with God and loved ones in a place of safety and health without ending, a place without sad goodbyes.


All true from my perspective as well.  Why, then, do you disagree with me?

God was with adam in the garden of eden but yet he made eve to share life with to and the animals. it seems He thought it was all better shared with many others.


Yes, still agree with you.


Oddly I thought that was basically the situation with adam and eve in the garden of eden, that they were there with God in a perfect place where He provided everything for them.


Agree again.  


But that was adam and eve in the garden of eden, much of my argument though is that in matters of believing in God or believing God is who He says He is, much of what many know isn't that good world, it's a world of pain and suffering and death, why does God really expect people to believe in something when what they really experience is the opposite?


Is this world NOTHING but pain and suffering and death?  Is there NO happiness in your world?  It's a fallen world, true; but if you can't see evidence of God, you're not trying hard enough.

I see all that you talk about, but I also see the wonders of God's creation everywhere.  Ever been to Glacier National Park?  How can you look upon the wonderful, picture-perfect mountains on the Going to the Sun Road and NOT see God's handiwork?  A sunrise over the Rockies, painting Pike's Peak that beautiful golden-orange color?  The majesty and might of a thunderstorm in the distance, roaring across the Midwest?  The beauty of the Grand Canyon?

I see God in action when I see the volunteers at Special Olympics events; or when I see pictures of Mother Teresa working in India; or when I see busloads of volunteers going to Mississippi on their spring break to help clean up from Katrina––not for pay, but for the pleasure of helping someone in need.  Ever see the joy in the face of someone serving at a soup kitchen, and the responding thanks and gratitude of the people receiving that gift?  

I'd see it all more as love if He really went out of His way to show us love in our very lives,


He already does/did.  What part of "sacrificed His only Son" DOESN'T show love?    Dude––He DIED for you!  Isn't that enough?  Or are you so shallow that you need a demonstration of love every day, or it doesn't count?

The most often quoted verse in the Bible is John 3:16:  "For God so loved the world He gave is only begotten Son, so whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."    Right there, in the verse.....LOVE!

And not only did He show us––you––the ultimate expression of love (to die to pay for YOUR sins), but He shows love every day through His followers here on earth.  How many thousands––if not millions––of people are helped every day by Christian charitable organizations?  How many soup kitchens, shelters, suicide hotlines, hospitals, etc.  are run by Christian organizations, and how many people do they help?  The word "charity" even comes from the Old French word meaning, "Christian love!"

And last, but not least––what is the 11th Commandment?  John 13:34:  "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

The signs are out there––you just have to be receptive to them, and be looking for them.  Easy to get wrapped up in the whole "the world is a horrible place to live" mindset, but that's what sets Christians apart––we see the same world as you do, but we also see hope and love in it. Why?  Because we've been promised the way out––something that makes all the pain and suffering worthwhile––eternal life in Heaven.  And the cost of admission?  Believe in Him who died for you, accept Him, and follow Him.  Pretty small price to pay, really.

not tell us how it was shown 2,000 years before we were born, never mind all the pain or death you see, that we shouldn't base of beliefs on the things "we actually experience".


You're going to have to try this part again.  I have no idea what you're trying to say.  

I'm at odds with this.


Here's a challenge for you: read the gospel of John, front to back.    Just one book out of the Bible.  www.biblegateway.com is a good online resource, and you can even choose the Bible version there (I'd stay away from the King James, and I think New Living Translation version is the best.)  Or, go to your nearest church and ask for a Bible––they'll give you one, for free.  

Read it, and see what you think about God and the Christian message.  Then tell me what you think.  Most of your answers are there.  

But, one condition––don't read it from the standpoint of "I'm going to look for every way to shoot this story down," read it from the standpoint of "I don't get this––what are the answers?"  You'll be amazed at how much you'll find in it.

I'll be waiting.  
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