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Posted: 1/30/2003 10:24:34 PM EDT
Homeowner Must Pay $102,000 For Flying the American Flag May have to pay an additional $42,000 January 25, 2003 By Shu Bartholomew (View author info) Richmond, VA - Breaking News... Contact Richard and Ava Oulton FAX (804)270-5757 Richard and Ava Oullton were informed by Judge Harris of the Henrico County Circuit Court to be prepared to pay the consequences if Old Glory is still flying on their property on March 1st. Having exhausted every avenue of appeal, the Oultons ultimately lost the battle to keep their flagpole on their property. The Virginia Supreme Court's opinion, that people who live in homeowners' associations have very limited freedoms and property rights, was echoed by the United States Supreme Court. On remand to the Henrico County Circuit Court, the Oulton's were ordered to comply with the wishes of the association or be prepared to go to jail. They have been ordered to pay in excess of $102,000 to cover the association's costs, with another $42,000 to be decided by Judge Harris at a later date. Included in that award is several thousand dollars to hire a bulldozer, dump truck and several Henrico County Police to remove the 25 foot flagpole and the flag -- by force. [url]www.ahrc.com/new/index.php/src/news/sub/article/action/ShowMedia/id/363[/url]
Link Posted: 1/30/2003 10:30:45 PM EDT
He needs to get a rifle, some body armour, and some chain. Protect the flag at all costs, and the constitution that SHOULD allow you to fly the damn flag on your own property. I hope I will never LIVE in a communist community.
Link Posted: 1/30/2003 10:35:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/30/2003 10:35:46 PM EDT
Initially I was outraged as Im sure most of you were. However there not stopping him from flying the flag there stopping him from flying the flag on a 25 foot pole. Homeowner associations have lots of rules and you agree to them when you move in. Hes still free to fly the flag but if the poles against the rules its against the rules. Im sure theyd want it taken down even if it didnt have the flag flying from it.
Link Posted: 1/30/2003 10:39:58 PM EDT
Why anyone would buy a house in a "planned community" with Association rules is beyond my understanding.
Link Posted: 1/30/2003 10:44:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/30/2003 10:51:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2003 11:05:17 PM EDT by ar10er]
Does anyone find the amount a tad high?
Link Posted: 1/30/2003 10:52:10 PM EDT
25ft is not that big. vote from the rooftops!
Link Posted: 1/30/2003 10:52:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR15fan: Why anyone would buy a house in a "planned community" with Association rules is beyond my understanding.
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The trade-off is an increased property value.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 1:38:10 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 3:19:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2003 3:20:51 AM EDT by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 3:22:29 AM EDT
Virginia has tons of those little communities, especially in suburbia, south of DC. Lived there to two years near Quantico. You couldn't have your grass higher than a few inches, or your front door colored anything other than a tan or beige. Living there was awful. They dubbed the subdivision "Settlers Way" and named all the other clear-cut massed produced subdivisions after nature-like concepts to allure people. Like "Raccoon Ridge" or "Crystal Brook" I moved to Maine and dug in deep...
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 3:31:35 AM EDT
They tried the same thing here in Florida, it was a big stink, court fight. Gov Jeb Bush got involved and said the man can fly the Flag and the ASSociation can pound sand. Thank God! The liberals haven't overrun Florida, yet, but they're trying.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 4:18:01 AM EDT
I give the guy credit for making a fight of it but I can't imagine why he would want to live amongst a bunch of assholes.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 5:58:49 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 6:33:34 AM EDT
Yes Virginia does have alot of these Homeowner Associations. I believe Reston was one of the first if not THE first "planned Community" in the nation. It pretty much all stemmed from there. It is about making people keep their homes maintained for property value reasons. More often than not though the "board" and the "president" let the power go to their heads. Everything gets wacky from then on out. I will NEVER buy a house where there is a homeowners association. Been there, done that, hated it.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 6:46:33 AM EDT
Heres his Flagpole. It doesn't look to unsightly to me. I can't believe the amount of money they want him to pay. He's gonna have to sell that house to pay the judgement. I beleive that was the plan of the association all along[V] [img]http://www.ahrc.com/new/contents/media/images/166Oultonflag.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 6:49:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 6:54:04 AM EDT
personally, i wouldn't care if it was on a 50 ft pole. BUT,since we can't pray in schools, and the ten commandments are prohibited too, and "in God we trust" offends some, and "one nation, under God" is offensive too, then i'm not suprised by this. as a matter of fact, it's perfectly fitting for where we are going and how the current times are changing. i like azcopwannabee's idea, protect it with a rife.......
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 7:02:07 AM EDT
why anybody would buy a house in a 'association" is beyond me....you may as well move to cuba, or some other commie state and be told what you can or can't do.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 7:15:52 AM EDT
When I had my house built, I had to put up with the HOA BS too. They said the fence pickets had to face OUT. There is an empty chunk of land behind me, that had large plants growing. The two houses surrounding me were being built at the same time, just about 1 month behind. I tried to force the issue since it will only be a month, but ended up having to have my fence pickets facing out. I tried to reason with them saying that the construction of the houses, the tore up dirt, the bricks, etc., are more of an eyesore than the pickets facing inward, but they didn't see my point or seem to care. So I went out looking at other fences in the neighborhood, pointed out MANY other areas that didn't follow their rules on proper picket alignment, and instead of letting me slide for a month, they fined the builder and made them reverse pickets on the neighbors fences, even though nobody had ever noticed before...
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 7:17:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By coltcarbine: and "in God we trust" offends some,
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If this really offended people, they wouldn't use U.S. money.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 7:31:48 AM EDT
It becomes more evident every day....PEOPLE SUCK !!!! Homeowners associations are bullshit !! They are for old retired assholes and holier than thou busy bodies who have nothing better to do than bitch about what others do with THEIR OWN property. Let the sheeple live in their little pristine gated communities with the sleeping mall ninja rejects at the gate. I'll be quite happy living on a nice chunk of land with my house right in the middle with no busy body neighbors around. I would NEVER buy a home or property and sign papers that take away my rights. Actually, I'm the opposite....I would never buy a house in a cookie cutter, chicken wire/stucco piece of shit housing development. I feel for this guy, but I have heard too many horror stories about homeowners association nazis who think they are gods. As much as I disagree with the assholes who are against Old Glory, The guy knew what he was buying into. [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=4615[/img]
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 7:40:00 AM EDT
He should have "Guido the Kneecapper" pay a few of those folks a little midnight visit.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 8:08:18 AM EDT
How can they send him to jail for not complying with association rules? I would think the worst they can do is to make him move out. I never did like the idea of a "planned community". The last thing we need is another level of people to tell us what we can and cannot do.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 8:13:54 AM EDT
Here at my dad's office we fly the FLAG on a 35ft pole 24/7/365. We have a HUGE spotlight that lights up at night. But since we are waaay out in the county I guess it doesn't matter much.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 8:25:28 AM EDT
WTF is it with people who don't want to be responsible for their own choices. Nobody MADE him buy a house in a subdivision that doesn't allow flagpoles. He CHOSE to do so - and now is a whiny bitch because he no longer feels like obeying the rules that he agreed when he signed on the dotted line. How old is this guy? Five? This is a guy who either: (1) didn't bother to read and understand the terms under which he agreed to buy a house, or (2) thinks that he is so special that he shouldn't have to follow the rules if he doesn't want to. If you don't like the rules - then don't CHOOSE to live there. Why is that so hard to understand? I am assuming that this rule existed before he moved in - if this is a "new" rule just to prevent him personally from putting up a flagpole, then the homeowners association really are assholes - but it sounds like there's only one asshole here.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 8:42:10 AM EDT
There's an ongoing dispute down in Chesapeake VA over the same issue. According to the ASSociation the owner has to take the flag down every night, and THE FLAG POLE TOO! A reserve LTC that I occasionally work with is getting on her side and is fighting for her to keep it. Meanwhile her husband is deployed fighting the War, and all those phuckers can do is bitch about HOUSES THAT THEY DON'T OWN! I say the guy ought to have his wife/kids go somewhere else, buy a rifle and fight for Old Glory! The first fucker I'd cap would be the "president" of the Homeowners ASSociation.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 8:46:50 AM EDT
that sucks... interesting story about HOA's. when we were looking for a home, my wife was enthralled with a section of homes here in tulsa. she really wanted to live in that area. side note.. I'm hardcore duck hunter and professional retriever trainer. complete with a wicked ass'd camoflauged duckboat and a 2 run dog kennel. the dogs i take are extremely well behaved and quiet animals. we find a house that was off to itself facing the back end of a creek. it looked like a nice place to live. we meet the realtor and are viewing the home when the local HOA president makes a showing..to shake hands and give us the BS routine. me being from the country..i'm new to that HOA crap. then he asked.."i see the kennel box in your truck..and the DU and DW stickers (NRA as well) are you a big hunter" i said..i hunt a tad..i tell him that i train competition hunting retrievers. he replied that "you probably have a boat too dont you." i said yeah, got one of those too. he proceeded to tell my wife and i about the HOA noise prohibitions..before 7am..and the no boat in view.. i shook my head.. and politely said..FUCK THAT NOISE.. have a good day.. my wife and i left the realtor and HOA presidetn standing in the driveway..in bewilderment. imagine what they would do when i skin my deer and hogs.. i hope the man digs a moat and barricades and get a few VFW members to help him out in the end.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 9:12:15 AM EDT
Unbeleivable! Maybe the HOA would rather have a commi flag fly.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 9:18:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 9:28:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By mace: How can they send him to jail for not complying with association rules? I would think the worst they can do is to make him move out. I never did like the idea of a "planned community". The last thing we need is another level of people to tell us what we can and cannot do.
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I question that too, after all, would this not be like, "he did not pay his rent to the landlord", in which case, the law would just evict him in this civil case, not arest him! But the amount of the fine seems lnsane! And just like the landlord senario, he could just tell the [b]ass[/b]ociation to take a flying flip.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 10:01:51 AM EDT
The costs are so high because lawyers are so expensive- surprised?
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 10:05:57 AM EDT
Problem is, these days almost every new house has an HOA.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 10:10:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Energizer: Problem is, these days almost every new house has an HOA.
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Move a little farther out.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 10:15:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2003 10:17:37 AM EDT by Energizer]
Originally Posted By Boomer:
Originally Posted By Energizer: Problem is, these days almost every new house has an HOA.
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Move a little farther out.
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I did... no luck. Maybe I will sell in a few years and move further out (traffic will get worse anyway). I do live in a nice community though, but I found out that two of my neighbors are theifs: they were recently caught stealing from the build sites.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 10:22:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2003 10:30:02 AM EDT by deadeye47]
Originally Posted By ar10er: Does anyone find the amount a tad high?
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No not really....attorney fees for the "ass-ociation". edited to add....I would go thru the covanant real close and if it didn't prohibit it I would paint Old Glory on my roof! [:D]
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 10:29:33 AM EDT
Challenge: Somebody grab their subdivsion rules and publish then we modify them. Then if there are any builders on the board they can submit the AR15.com version when they do their next project. It might not be the most color coordinated neighborhood around (not counting cammo of course), but I bet it would be the most crime free. [:D]
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 10:40:08 AM EDT
I just bought a new home, and there is a home owners association of course. But, it hasn't gotten to the point I'm hearing... probably because it just started. I have to play devil's advocit a bit here, and say HOA's are not ALL bad. I keep everything I own well maintained, and looking nice. I expect those I live next to, to do the same thing because it has a direct impact on the value of my assets. If you are the type of person that doesn't cut your grass but once every 2 months, a new community with HOA is somewhere YOU SHOULDN'T PURCHASE A HOME. On the other hand, some of the stories about HOA Gestapo are frightening. I am lucky in that we seem to have reasonable rules (so far). I think HOA's have too much power though... there should be some level of progression in between compliance and taking someone's home. Just my $.02 -dramine
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 10:45:50 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MissouriBob: Challenge: Somebody grab their subdivsion rules and publish then we modify them. Then if there are any builders on the board they can submit the AR15.com version when they do their next project. It might not be the most color coordinated neighborhood around (not counting cammo of course), but I bet it would be the most crime free. [:D]
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I second this, can we get a third? P.S. There are some nice tracks here in Idaho.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 10:54:43 AM EDT
I have rule number one. You shall attend a mandatory shoot every Saturday afternoon, work permitting.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 11:09:52 AM EDT
This guy sounds like my Dad. Even though it's against the rules that [i]he agreed to play by[/i], he's going to go his own way and bear the consequences. I've got $5 that says it's not about his right to fly the flag. It's about his "right" to do whatever he wants to do and feel confident in his own correctness. "I don't care if I'm wrong and it costs me every cent I've got, I'm a-gonna fly that flag!" Fine. Make your point, but then don't bitch when it costs you everything you've got. Guy was a fool for buying into one of these communities to begin with. They are for go-along/get along kind of people, not for the "I'm always right" crowd.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 11:36:21 AM EDT
I understand how the Nazi associations are formed and how they were a good idea in the beginning, just like Unions were formed because of management excesses and how concentration camps were originally for criminals..now that I have got everyones attention..lol..just kidding..seriously though I have never understood why you would spend $100,000-$300,000 on a "Sheep Pen" to live 6 feet from your neighbor, when you could spend half of that to live on 10-20 acres and have a nice house and no a-holes living right up your butt. Just my 2 cents.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 11:38:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2003 11:41:35 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 11:54:35 AM EDT
I live in Richmond Virginia and have been following this story for a while. Yes, we have many homeowner's associations around here, and I will NEVER live in one. I have a local HOA guy walk around the back of my house (without informing me) and cite me for small areas of mildew on the back. He's lucky he didn't get mistaken for a burgular!! The guy with the flag pole moved into one of the highest cost (read yuppie) neighborhoods in the metropolitan area. He knew what the restrictions were, and did it anyway. They were nice, and asked him to take it down - several times. He didn't. They explained that he would pay attorney fees if it went to court. He basically said "bring it on!" Well, they did. I respect this former Marine (if I remember correctly) for choosing something to be passionate about after 9/11. However, he knew the rules. The $$ is a bit extreme, but this has gone on for a LONG time (2 years?). Those who know me are probably shaking their heads that I'm backing the HOA on this one (I'm not real keen on being told what to do by people who should be minding their business), but I also recognize that you buy in to those rules when you decide to move to that neighborhood. There's a reason I live in the same town in a neighborhood with almost NO rules (I can't raise pigs).... Black Fox
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 11:55:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By diverdown:
Originally Posted By AR15fan: Why anyone would buy a house in a "planned community" with Association rules is beyond my understanding.
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The trade-off is an increased property value.
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As person who lived in PC (Planned Community) for 25 years, I can tell you it is not that bad. There is a lot of control, but it keeps all those dumb retards from doing things that lowers your property value. They are not that bad. Looks like these people signed up, moved in and did not like th rules so they ignored them. Good, I hope they get a big ole' fine. Too bad they are hiding their lack of ability to read a contract behind the American Flag. You don't move into a Planned Community with your eyes close. You know what you sign up for, and if you don't, then your to dumb to earn enough money to afford to live in a decent Planned Community.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 11:59:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Garand_Shooter: He was quiet for the rest of the summer, but when the busybodies came back from Florida the next year they dicovered he had a $250 pickup in the driveway, with current plates, and an engine that ran, and a 40 foot tower welded to the bed with the biggest HF beam he could find at the top. All in 100% compliance with the deed restrictions.
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Now THAT is fuggin awesome! My kinda man, "Oh yeah, check THIS out...abides by all your rules so F' off"
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 12:09:40 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mr_Mullen:
Originally Posted By diverdown:
Originally Posted By AR15fan: Why anyone would buy a house in a "planned community" with Association rules is beyond my understanding.
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The trade-off is an increased property value.
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As person who lived in PC (Planned Community) for 25 years, I can tell you it is not that bad. There is a lot of control, but it keeps all those dumb retards from doing things that lowers your property value. They are not that bad. Looks like these people signed up, moved in and did not like th rules so they ignored them. Good, I hope they get a big ole' fine. Too bad they are hiding their lack of ability to read a contract behind the American Flag. You don't move into a Planned Community with your eyes close. You know what you sign up for, and if you don't, then your to dumb to earn enough money to afford to live in a decent Planned Community.
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I'm glad you like living in a self imposed gulag. Thats ok, some people like being told what to do.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 12:32:34 PM EDT
It sounds like this gentleman signed a contract stating that he would do certain things and abide by certain rules, and then decided that he was no longer bound by his word. Used to be a time when a man's word meant something. It's a shame that this has come to a head over the flag of our country, but too bad. You give your word, you keep it, end of story.
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 2:18:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2003 2:18:44 PM EDT by DScott]
Originally Posted By SPECTRE: PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESIGNATION. I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT ME AS A MEMBER. SPECTRE
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(Apologies to Groucho Marx... [:D])
Link Posted: 1/31/2003 9:51:28 PM EDT
the VFW part is due to the fact, you wont find more loyal people to that flag than men who have fought in a foriegn land and watched friends die for it. i remember by grandfather and his friends that were in his post and i was always in awe of those oldtimers( they were 65-80y/o) and every single one of them seemed to have scars.. there isnt too many of those old codgers left now..thats sad.. i kinda took notice that even at those ages they were still not to be trifled with. besides..that would be a helluva ad campaign for the homeowner. a dozen vets..in their VFW hats and vests.. the guy really needs a cannon to fire off though.. that would be the cats meow..if he's gonna have to pay $$$ atleast let him get his moneys worth.
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