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Posted: 7/19/2008 2:14:11 PM EDT
I was having a pair of speakers installed in my Jeep today and the owner's dad and I shot the shit while they finished up.

We get to talking about oil and commodities prices, dropping/rising etc. and he says "I've got to show you something". I had my CCW so no pennis peek-a-boo concerns as we walked to the back of the building.

All the while he's trying to give me a background on his invention I'm thinking "BS, scam, the guy's lost his mind".

The claims: one system is running on an old Isuzu Trooper. Was getting 15-16mpg around the city. He installed his system and after the first oil change, he noted significant gas savings...to the tune of 28mpg. System requires no serious alterations to the vehicle. He flatly stated that after installation you will have to have your oil changed every 3k miles until the carbon and crud is removed from the engine. He saved the oil and filter from his first oil change to show me the how much junk was removed.

Here's what I saw under the popped hood: a glass jar filled with distilled water, the top of which had two wire leads (+,- I assume) and a t-splitter with two rubber hoses that ran from bottle to air intake/fuel intake (I believe).

He starts the car and bubbling occurs in the bottle (electrolysis I presume). The hydrogen/fuel mixes in the combustion chamber.

Now this Trooper is ancient (175k on the odo) and it's purring like brand new. He tells me to walk around back and smell the exhaust, I don't stick my face right up to the pipe, but I notice I don't smell any fumes...in fact there's no smell at all and no smoke.


One of the workers at the shop said that the guy has the patent on the whole thing. I'm curious as to what ARFCOM thinks. So, is it feasable?
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:16:05 PM EDT


Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:16:44 PM EDT
dude it works it is feasible if you saw it.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:20:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 2:21:39 PM EDT by pv74]
The big oil companies will have him assasinated to shut him up.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:20:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN:




Yeah, what he said.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:22:19 PM EDT
All the claims are word of mouth.

Yeah, they will say "less emissions" but that is idle only.

You can't get something for nothing. You can't have freedom for free.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:22:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rob78:
I was having a pair of speakers installed in my Jeep today and the owner's dad and I shot the shit while they finished up.

We get to talking about oil and commodities prices, dropping/rising etc. and he says "I've got to show you something". I had my CCW so no pennis peek-a-boo concerns as we walked to the back of the building.

All the while he's trying to give me a background on his invention I'm thinking "BS, scam, the guy's lost his mind".

The claims: one system is running on an old Isuzu Trooper. Was getting 15-16mpg around the city. He installed his system and after the first oil change, he noted significant gas savings...to the tune of 28mpg. System requires no serious alterations to the vehicle. He flatly stated that after installation you will have to have your oil changed every 3k miles until the carbon and crud is removed from the engine. He saved the oil and filter from his first oil change to show me the how much junk was removed.

Here's what I saw under the popped hood: a glass jar filled with distilled water, the top of which had two wire leads (+,- I assume) and a t-splitter with two rubber hoses that ran from bottle to air intake/fuel intake (I believe).

He starts the car and bubbling occurs in the bottle (electrolysis I presume). The hydrogen/fuel mixes in the combustion chamber.

Now this Trooper is ancient (175k on the odo) and it's purring like brand new. He tells me to walk around back and smell the exhaust, I don't stick my face right up to the pipe, but I notice I don't smell any fumes...in fact there's no smell at all and no smoke.


One of the workers at the shop said that the guy has the patent on the whole thing. I'm curious as to what ARFCOM thinks. So, is it feasable?


This not new, there are very many variations. I saw one about a month ago, the guy claimed he was getting 6 mpg more in one trip to work. Still was working on dialing it in.

Google "hydrogen genorator"
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:23:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bytor94:

Originally Posted By XDBACKUPGUN:




Yeah, what he said.


Well, why isn't it feasable other than the fact it sounds too good to be true?

Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:24:15 PM EDT
A guy came to my Jr High science class and demonstrated how to produce Hydrogen.

I blew up a slot car transformer and was lucky I didn't fry myself.

I'll pass.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:25:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ORIGINAL-Waterdog:

Originally Posted By rob78:
I was having a pair of speakers installed in my Jeep today and the owner's dad and I shot the shit while they finished up.

We get to talking about oil and commodities prices, dropping/rising etc. and he says "I've got to show you something". I had my CCW so no pennis peek-a-boo concerns as we walked to the back of the building.

All the while he's trying to give me a background on his invention I'm thinking "BS, scam, the guy's lost his mind".

The claims: one system is running on an old Isuzu Trooper. Was getting 15-16mpg around the city. He installed his system and after the first oil change, he noted significant gas savings...to the tune of 28mpg. System requires no serious alterations to the vehicle. He flatly stated that after installation you will have to have your oil changed every 3k miles until the carbon and crud is removed from the engine. He saved the oil and filter from his first oil change to show me the how much junk was removed.

Here's what I saw under the popped hood: a glass jar filled with distilled water, the top of which had two wire leads (+,- I assume) and a t-splitter with two rubber hoses that ran from bottle to air intake/fuel intake (I believe).

He starts the car and bubbling occurs in the bottle (electrolysis I presume). The hydrogen/fuel mixes in the combustion chamber.

Now this Trooper is ancient (175k on the odo) and it's purring like brand new. He tells me to walk around back and smell the exhaust, I don't stick my face right up to the pipe, but I notice I don't smell any fumes...in fact there's no smell at all and no smoke.


One of the workers at the shop said that the guy has the patent on the whole thing. I'm curious as to what ARFCOM thinks. So, is it feasable?


This not new, there are very many variations. I saw one about a month ago, the guy claimed he was getting 6 mpg more in one trip to work. Still was working on dialing it in.

Google "hydrogen genorator"


Same with this guy. He said different figures for different vehicle, but the minimum was 6mpg improvement.

I'll give the google a look here in a minute. Your reply is precisely the reason I psoted it here...to see if anyone else had seen or heard of this before.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:26:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
All the claims are word of mouth.

Yeah, they will say "less emissions" but that is idle only.

You can't get something for nothing. You can't have freedom for free.


Hence my reluctance. I didn't note any particular downsides as he presented it.

I think he was asking $200 to install.

Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:27:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By callgood:
A guy came to my Jr High science class and demonstrated how to produce Hydrogen.

I blew up a slot car transformer and was lucky I didn't fry myself.

I'll pass.


Yeah the whole detonation thing is a bit scary
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:38:44 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By pv74:
The big oil companies will have him assasinated to shut him up.


I'm with him.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:40:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rob78:

Well, why isn't it feasable other than the fact it sounds too good to be true?



thermodynamics
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:42:38 PM EDT
My boss made one and put it on his diesel truck It work's , you can also make very loud noise makers if you fill a plastic milk jug with hydrogen and light it.

It is safe in your car because the hydrogen is being used as it is being generated.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:43:38 PM EDT
If your vehicle gets 20 MPG on gasoline, it would take a 200 kW generator to make enough electricity to fuel it on hydrogen. That size generator would require a 300 Hp engine to drive.

Ok, so the TINY bit of hydrogen generated supposedly makes the gasoline "burn better" or "more efficiently". How?

When gas burns, the first step is the liberation of the hydrogen from carbon bonds. After the hydrogen burns, the carbon now burns. How does adding any additional hydrogen, nevermind a TINY BIT, make the burn "better"?

Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:45:37 PM EDT
my dad is playing with something like this. I told him it wont work... He says it will and he wont listen to me.

Who knows
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:53:36 PM EDT
The amount of Hydrogen and Oxygen coming from that bottle is what maybe 1 cubic foot per minute on a LARGE system..

A standard car lets say 2.3L engine is sucking in 50-80 cubic feet of air / per second on accel.

Sorry just not going to help..

On a diesel it is even worse... A standard diesel motor takes in around 1000% more air than is needed to support combustion.. Try keeping up with that!
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 2:57:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:02:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
If your vehicle gets 20 MPG on gasoline, it would take a 200 kW generator to make enough electricity to fuel it on hydrogen. That size generator would require a 300 Hp engine to drive.

Ok, so the TINY bit of hydrogen generated supposedly makes the gasoline "burn better" or "more efficiently". How?

When gas burns, the first step is the liberation of the hydrogen from carbon bonds. After the hydrogen burns, the carbon now burns. How does adding any additional hydrogen, nevermind a TINY BIT, make the burn "better"?



You and all your sciencey stuff.


Besides the obvious scientific reasons, does anyone think that Detroit wouldn't install a distilled water reservior as OE on every vehicle if they could gain 6 MPG? Must be a conspiracy to lose money and market share to the Japanese.

Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:02:37 PM EDT
Ok, a 2.3 liter engine pulls 2300 liters per minute at WOT and 2000 RPM. It takes 50 kW-H to make 1 kg of hydrogen which is about 11000 liters at STP. There will also be 5500 liters of oxygen produced.

But to make enough hydrogen and oxygen to fuel that 2.3 liter engine operating at 2000 RPM, it would take a 410 kW generator. That represents 561 Hp.

Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:03:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
How many times must we repudiate this nonsense.

It is impossible.


We still have people thinking birdshot....nevermind.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:16:34 PM EDT
If it burns, it will produce heat, and if it produces heat it, it will produce power.

So how much power is neccessary?

Some hybrids are shutting off cylinders at cruise, and are producing better gas mileage.

Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:19:29 PM EDT
Article about a guy in the local paper installed it on his 1998 Chevy 1500 and got about a 40% increase in mpg.

I have the conversion kit on .pdf file if anyone wants it.

I have no idea if it would work.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:19:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:20:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:22:03 PM EDT
hmmm why is everyone assuming its the Hydrogen?.... the Increased oxygen content would rather obviously burn better.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:22:19 PM EDT
groan...

this shit again?
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:23:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Orion_Shall_Rise:
hmmm why is everyone assuming its the Hydrogen?.... the Increased oxygen content would rather obviously burn better.


define "better"
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:26:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:46:17 PM EDT
Part of me really wants to start building these things.


If science-illiterate people are going to waste money on things, I might as well make money on it, right? How much would Arfcommers pay for a ready made system--I mean, it doubles your gas mileage, right? How about $800?
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:49:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 3:51:42 PM EDT by AeroE]
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:50:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ORIGINAL-Waterdog:
If it burns, it will produce heat, and if it produces heat it, it will produce power.

So how much power is neccessary?

Some hybrids are shutting off cylinders at cruise, and are producing better gas mileage.



Which hybrids have selective displacement?

Idiots flock to hybrids just like this hydrogen claptrap...because they do not understand why/how it works and they have HOPE that it will work.

Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:51:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Kalahnikid:
Article about a guy in the local paper installed it on his 1998 Chevy 1500 and got about a 40% increase in mpg.

I have the conversion kit on .pdf file if anyone wants it.

I have no idea if it would work.


I do.


Yeah, but you are an operative of Big Oil.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:56:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By KS_Physicist:
Part of me really wants to start building these things.


If science-illiterate people are going to waste money on things, I might as well make money on it, right? How much would Arfcommers pay for a ready made system--I mean, it doubles your gas mileage, right? How about $800?


I want to do that too. Only my integrity gets in the way. If I make it, I want it to work.

The real scam artists also implement an oxygen sensor trimming circuit which fools the ECU into a slight lean condition. These are NOT EPA approved and can net any commercial installer a $10,000 fine per install. So if you sell them, you HAVE to state "For off-road use only".

Of course EPA has to prove the devices screw with the emissions.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:57:33 PM EDT
I love these threads. Makes my post count jump. Last good thread was "airplane on a conveyor".
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 3:58:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 6:54:08 PM EDT
Thinking about the energy needed just to make water boil, let alone break it apart into its eleements I can't see any net energy gain.

If it were that easy to break it apart, we'd see all kinds of interesting dramatic effects in nature involving water thsat we don't see now.

Then think about this: How long does that jug of water last? To produce any significant power, wouldn't it need to be consumed a lot quicker?



Link Posted: 7/19/2008 7:24:46 PM EDT
A) The science: An electrolysis process converts 2*H20 into 2*H2 + O2, The hydrogen gas and oxygen are going to be burned in the engine to produce more power and some of this power will go into the alternator where it is converted in to electricity to power the electrolysis.

B) The thermodynamics: It takes more power to make the hydrogen and oxygen than you get back by burning same. Theoretically you might be able to tune the electrolysis power to about 80%-ish efficiency (electrical power in into power contained in gasses), and if burned in a rocket motor might yield 95%-ish of the power in the gasses/liquids (directed thrust rocket motor). However when converted in to rotary motion by a crankshaft with a short connecting rod, you can't get more than 40%-ish from the hydrogen and oxygen combustion (thrust at piston to torque at crankshaft RMS adiabatic compression/expansion).

Thus, it donna worka.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 7:36:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
If your vehicle gets 20 MPG on gasoline, it would take a 200 kW generator to make enough electricity to fuel it on hydrogen. That size generator would require a 300 Hp engine to drive.

Ok, so the TINY bit of hydrogen generated supposedly makes the gasoline "burn better" or "more efficiently". How?

When gas burns, the first step is the liberation of the hydrogen from carbon bonds. After the hydrogen burns, the carbon now burns. How does adding any additional hydrogen, nevermind a TINY BIT, make the burn "better"?



Please do not taunt monkeys with scientific fact
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 7:40:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By ORIGINAL-Waterdog:
If it burns, it will produce heat, and if it produces heat it, it will produce power.

So how much power is neccessary?

Some hybrids are shutting off cylinders at cruise, and are producing better gas mileage.



Which hybrids have selective displacement?

Idiots flock to hybrids just like this hydrogen claptrap...because they do not understand why/how it works and they have HOPE that it will work.



Not sure but Cadillac pioneered the technology in the 80's, the Cadilac 8-6-4 engine.
It's more commonly known as Cadillac's worst mistake evar, good idea in theory, horrible execution it didn't work for shit. They decided that selective displacement was better used as a limp home method, which showed up in the Northstar engines.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 7:41:17 PM EDT
Wouldn't work.

Hydrogen engines don't work like that. They require a few cell.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 7:45:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BP03:
Wouldn't work.

Hydrogen engines don't work like that. They require a few cell.


How many? "Few" is inspecific.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 7:46:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rob78:
I was having a pair of speakers installed in my Jeep today and the owner's dad and I shot the shit while they finished up.

We get to talking about oil and commodities prices, dropping/rising etc. and he says "I've got to show you something". I had my CCW so no pennis peek-a-boo concerns as we walked to the back of the building.

All the while he's trying to give me a background on his invention I'm thinking "BS, scam, the guy's lost his mind".

The claims: one system is running on an old Isuzu Trooper. Was getting 15-16mpg around the city. He installed his system and after the first oil change, he noted significant gas savings...to the tune of 28mpg. System requires no serious alterations to the vehicle. He flatly stated that after installation you will have to have your oil changed every 3k miles until the carbon and crud is removed from the engine. He saved the oil and filter from his first oil change to show me the how much junk was removed.

Here's what I saw under the popped hood: a glass jar filled with distilled water, the top of which had two wire leads (+,- I assume) and a t-splitter with two rubber hoses that ran from bottle to air intake/fuel intake (I believe).

He starts the car and bubbling occurs in the bottle (electrolysis I presume). The hydrogen/fuel mixes in the combustion chamber.

Now this Trooper is ancient (175k on the odo) and it's purring like brand new. He tells me to walk around back and smell the exhaust, I don't stick my face right up to the pipe, but I notice I don't smell any fumes...in fact there's no smell at all and no smoke.


One of the workers at the shop said that the guy has the patent on the whole thing. I'm curious as to what ARFCOM thinks. So, is it feasable?


It is physically impossible....
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 7:46:28 PM EDT
I have freinds that are building the newest designs now. Trying to get time with him in his shop. I'm gonns try it.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 7:50:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By hnrybwmn:
I have freinds that are building the newest designs now. Trying to get time with him in his shop. I'm gonns try it.


Is there any kookery yoU DON'T believe in...

Brown's Gas...

Inflation is a conspiracy by bankers to steal from everyone else...

Etc...

Link Posted: 7/19/2008 7:53:11 PM EDT
I think that is the same guy my BIL is working with. He told me about the EXACT same system that him and a fella that lived up close to TN were working on. My BIL is about to try it on his wife's (my sister's) minivan.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 7:56:27 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 7:57:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:

Originally Posted By BP03:
Wouldn't work.

Hydrogen engines don't work like that. They require a few cell.


How many? "Few" is inspecific.


Forgive me, the heat has made me tired.

Fuel
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 8:03:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 8:12:19 PM EDT by 1Andy2]
Does it work? Sure. Hydrogen is a combustible gas.

Is it cost-effective? I doubt it.

TANSTAAFL. The energy to split the water has to come from somewhere. And you can't get more energy from a reaction than you put into it, so I can't see how burning petroleum fuel to make electricity to create hydrogen would net you anything.

eta: Not to mention the amount of water needed to generate any appreciable amount of hydrogen is going to weigh quite a bit, I imagine.
Link Posted: 7/19/2008 8:04:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2008 8:06:26 PM EDT by SETXshooter]
"Funny how we have all of these people saying 'it won't work' or 'it can't work' or 'it is impossible'..."

Until one of you says " It didn't work and here is my proof" let us try. Maybe we will figure out the the Earth really isn't flat and that maggots come from flies and not from raw meat.

Check out HHO Project . com

I am rebuilding a Geo Metro (It will have a bumper sticker that says "My other vehicle is a Dino Excursion" which is true) and I will put an HHO system on it. An electrician at work it getting the bugs out of his and is currently estimating 60 MPG up from 45 MPG stock.

Wes
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