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Posted: 1/21/2013 6:38:07 AM EDT
Link

Last March, DHS reportedly ordered 450 million rounds of .40 caliber ammunition, including hollow point bullets, from defense contractor ATK to be delivered over five years.

Hollow-point tip bullets are rarely used in training exercises. They are among the deadliest bullets, with the ability to pass through barriers and expand for a bigger impact without the rest of the bullet warping.
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/feds-to-hold-ammo-advantage-over-states/#qS1kvudJu37FcKtu.99


We know hollow points aren't allowed in NATO combat, right?(I read that somewhere).

Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:39:08 AM EDT
[#1]
I learned something about hollow points today!!!  The more you know...
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:40:16 AM EDT
[#2]
How many armed personal does DHS have?

Would love to see the breakdown of # of rounds per firearm.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:42:29 AM EDT
[#3]
They're going to need them.

Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:44:03 AM EDT
[#4]
The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibited the use in international warfare of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body.[3] This is often incorrectly believed to be prohibited in the Geneva Conventions, but it significantly predates those conventions, and is in fact a continuance of the St. Petersburg Declaration of 1868, which banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams, as well as weapons designed to aggravate injured soldiers or make their death inevitable. NATO members do not use small arms ammunition that is prohibited by the Hague Convention.


Wiki Link to NATO use of hollowpoints
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:44:42 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
They're going to need them.



that is what concerns me.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:44:51 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
How many armed personal does DHS have?

Would love to see the breakdown of # of rounds per firearm.


TSA
US Customs and Immigration
US Border Patrol
ICE
FPS
US Secret Service
US Coast Guard

Plus, the Federal law enforcement training centers
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:45:06 AM EDT
[#7]



Quoted:


Link




Last March, DHS reportedly ordered 450 million rounds of .40 caliber ammunition, including hollow point bullets, from defense contractor ATK to be delivered over five years.



Hollow-point tip bullets are rarely used in training exercises. They are among the deadliest bullets, with the ability to pass through barriers and expand for a bigger impact without the rest of the bullet warping.

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/feds-to-hold-ammo-advantage-over-states/#qS1kvudJu37FcKtu.99





We know hollow points aren't allowed in NATO combat, right?(I read that somewhere).















Bullet warping? Wut?





 
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:45:21 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibited the use in international warfare of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body.[3] This is often incorrectly believed to be prohibited in the Geneva Conventions, but it significantly predates those conventions, and is in fact a continuance of the St. Petersburg Declaration of 1868, which banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams, as well as weapons designed to aggravate injured soldiers or make their death inevitable. NATO members do not use small arms ammunition that is prohibited by the Hague Convention.


Wiki Link to NATO use of hollowpoints


Which, somehow, we got around when using SOST rounds
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:46:01 AM EDT
[#9]
New sig line material right there. Thanks!

Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:46:03 AM EDT
[#10]
They will need it to defend the Denver Airport.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:46:26 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
They're going to need them.



So will we. I propose a safe and winner take all thumb wrestling tournament.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:47:16 AM EDT
[#12]
Uh ok?
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:47:25 AM EDT
[#13]
NVM. Reading is fundamental.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:48:01 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
How many armed personal does DHS have?

Would love to see the breakdown of # of rounds per firearm.


TSA
US Customs and Immigration
US Border Patrol
ICE
FPS
US Secret Service
US Coast Guard

Plus, the Federal law enforcement training centers


The United States Coast Guard is under the auspices of DHS as well. Although why they would issue HP ammo is a head scratcher.


I listed them. They would use them because they are a law enforcement agency.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:48:29 AM EDT
[#15]
Do agencies use HP for training?

We don't.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:53:23 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Do agencies use HP for training?

We don't.


It says in the article that they don't use hp for training .... normally.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:54:17 AM EDT
[#17]
Many federal agencies will use duty ammunition for training and qualification purposes.  The cost increase is offset by simplicity, "training like you fight", bulk purchasing, and streamlined acquisition.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:55:06 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Do agencies use HP for training?

We don't.


It says in the article that they don't use hp for training .... normally.


Don't really listen to articles and their 'facts'.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:55:29 AM EDT
[#19]



Quoted:


Many federal agencies will use duty ammunition for training and qualification purposes.  The cost increase is offset by simplicity, "training like you fight", bulk purchasing, and streamlined acquisition.


Federal anything don't give two shits about costs.



They don't pay for it, we do.



 
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:56:03 AM EDT
[#20]
.40 is the easiest caliber for me to get. This article is crap and I've never even heard of of that news 'source'.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:56:13 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Do agencies use HP for training?

We don't.


Generally large agencies do.  When you put out a bid for 450,000,000 rounds, per round price gets pretty darn cheap.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:58:28 AM EDT
[#22]
As of last month, 64gr Gold Dot for rifle and HST for pistol were still being used as both training/duty ammo.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:58:35 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Do agencies use HP for training?

We don't.


My old agency did. We practiced and qualified with our duty ammo. Except when we first got UMPs. I guess somebody realized that would get costly quick.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:59:24 AM EDT
[#24]



Quoted:


Link




Last March, DHS reportedly ordered 450 million rounds of .40 caliber ammunition, including hollow point bullets, from defense contractor ATK to be delivered over five years.



Hollow-point tip bullets are rarely used in training exercises. They are among the deadliest bullets, with the ability to pass through barriers and expand for a bigger impact without the rest of the bullet warping.

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/feds-to-hold-ammo-advantage-over-states/#qS1kvudJu37FcKtu.99





We know hollow points aren't allowed in NATO combat, right?(I read that somewhere).



Number one, you're linking WND, which has zero credibility.



Number two,



 
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 6:59:39 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:

Quoted:
Many federal agencies will use duty ammunition for training and qualification purposes.  The cost increase is offset by simplicity, "training like you fight", bulk purchasing, and streamlined acquisition.

Federal anything don't give two shits about costs.

They don't pay for it, we do.
 




The last time I put in an ammo order, the cheapest new practice ammo I could find was HP.  ATK's law enforcement prices are amazingly low.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 7:00:16 AM EDT
[#26]
really old news.... this was posted back in may or something multiple times...
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 7:00:17 AM EDT
[#27]
As much as I love a good .gov conspiracy theory, I gotta say this is bunk. I saw some of the procurement docs obtained through FOIA and posted online as "proof". Being very familiar with Government procurement, what those documents showed was NOT an "Order" for 400,000,000 rounds of various ammunition but rather an  "Option" to purchase up to that much at an agreed price. That may not sound like much of of a distinction but in .gov purchasing there is a huge difference between the actions. In the past the Federal Government has routinely used its buying power to gain price concessions and then allowed cooperative local LEAs (who may not be able to garner the attractive pricing alone) to purchase ammunition and other products off the .gov schedule. At worst, I think DHS and other Federal LEAs forecast the effect of Obama's persecution of the 2A and wanted to secure themselves a guaranteed supply (these options usually require the Vendor to perform) at a sane price. These options may be forcing ATK to keep a certain amount of production capacity in reserve should the .gov fully exercise all the delivery options. So......in that sense maybe there is a .gov conspiracy to throttle the supply of premium defensive ammunition to the commercial/Civilian market
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 7:02:24 AM EDT
[#28]
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 7:03:01 AM EDT
[#29]
Passing through barriers? With hollowpoints? Are they buying bonded rounds, or is that story just herp with a side order of derp?

Considering the number of personnel who have to train who fall under the DHS umbrella the quantity ordered doesn't bother me. Lots of agencies train with carry ammo, so I guess I don't understand the problem? Could someone please educate me about why this is bad?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 7:05:34 AM EDT
[#30]
You guys have to start being careful of threads that bait actionable responses. Post irrelevant shit and avoid the trap.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 7:06:57 AM EDT
[#31]
Nowonder I cant find any Black Talon.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 7:11:11 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
As much as I love a good .gov conspiracy theory, I gotta say this is bunk. I saw some of the procurement docs obtained through FOIA and posted online as "proof". Being very familiar with Government procurement, what those documents showed was NOT an "Order" for 400,000,000 rounds of various ammunition but rather an  "Option" to purchase up to that much at an agreed price. That may not sound like much of of a distinction but in .gov purchasing there is a huge difference between the actions. In the past the Federal Government has routinely used its buying power to gain price concessions and then allowed cooperative local LEAs (who may not be able to garner the attractive pricing alone) to purchase ammunition and other products off the .gov schedule. At worst, I think DHS and other Federal LEAs forecast the effect of Obama's persecution of the 2A and wanted to secure themselves a guaranteed supply (these options usually require the Vendor to perform) at a sane price. These options may be forcing ATK to keep a certain amount of production capacity in reserve should the .gov fully exercise all the delivery options. So......in that sense maybe there is a .gov conspiracy to throttle the supply of premium defensive ammunition to the commercial/Civilian market


From what I found, DHS has 240,000 employees.  Let's assume that 50,000 are armed.  Let's assume that the overall average per year is 1,000 rounds per armed employee (with handguns and long guns).  That is 50,000,000 rounds per year.  Over this 5 year contract, that is 250,000,000 rounds.  Throw in some staff increases, staff turn over (initial training burns up a lot more ammo), specialized units that burn up even more ammo in training, and I could see the 5 year number climb to over 300,000,000 rounds.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 7:15:41 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
They're going to need them.



I hope not.

Could this simply be the current administration trying to use taxpayer money to starve gun owners of ammunition?
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 7:23:27 AM EDT
[#34]
Pass through barriers?

<facepalm.jpeg>
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 7:23:37 AM EDT
[#35]
They probably just read ARFCOM and decided that they needed MOAR MOAR MOAR and their own ammo fort castle.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 7:28:34 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
They are keeping all the ammo so that locals can't protect the people when the time comes.


That is a scary statement coming from a LEO.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 7:34:25 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
They're going to need them.



So will we. I propose a safe and winner take all thumb wrestling tournament.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


game on!!!

Link Posted: 1/21/2013 7:37:59 AM EDT
[#38]
One guy I did training with used Factory Hydra-shoks. Granted he worked at Federal Cartridge.
Link Posted: 1/21/2013 7:40:44 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Pass through barriers?

<facepalm.jpeg>


.40 S&W HP(RP)?
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