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Posted: 12/19/2003 7:26:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2003 7:42:02 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Airport follies


A few of you on LJ know about this, and were asked to keep quiet about it until it was resolved. For the most part, it was resolved yesterday and since the 'hostages' have been released, I can comment on it without too much worry of blowback. So, clicky-clicky for the amazing and expensive story about how, after Shooty Goodness in September, I was arrested by the Dulles Airport cops, interviewed by ATF, FBI and Fatherland Security, handcuffed in front of the crowd at the check-in counter, had $3000 of guns confiscated and was accused of being a Neo-Nazi and white supremacist.



Now, you may not be aware of it, but it is legal to take guns onto airplanes. Really. The requirement is that they be in a gun case, unloaded, locked, and declared to the check-in clerk, who will give you a form to sign, as checked baggage. I've been travelling with guns this way for over fifteen years. Never a problem. Until Sept.

One gun case contained four pistols and an AR-15. One smaller case contained a .38 revolver. I got up to the counter and said the exact same phrase I've uttered every time I fly - "I need to declare unloaded firearms". The clerk gives me a bright orange tag to fill out (the declaration tag) stating that I certify the guns are unloaded. Since I have two gun cases I tell him "I need two". He gives me another tag. I dutifully fill out both and put one in each gun case, as required by law.

SO I lock up the cases, hand em over to the clerk and they go on the conveyor belt to the TSA goons and their x-ray machine. I go through security to my gate and wait for the plane. Fifteen minutes before my plane boards I get paged and asked to return to the check-in counter. I get there to no less than four airport cops, three guys in suits with walkietalkies and three or four white shirted TSA goons. I am told that the x-ray machines picked up a cylindrical metal object in my luggage and that they'd like the keys so they can open it and check it out. (The cylindrical object was my telescoping ASP baton.) They open the gun case and things get busy. All sorts of people are called over. After fifteen minutes I am handcuffed "For my protection" in front of the assembled crowd waiting to check in for their flight. I stand there for about a half hour as they try to determine if theres something wrong. I turn to one of the cops and say "Lemme guess, if I'm innocent then I have nothing to fear, right?" She agrees. Im sure she's being fitted for jackboots as we speak.

Now one goon comes up to me and says im under arrest for improperly checking in my guns. WTF? Theres a declaration tag sitting right there in the case with the guns. My legal obligation is met! They take me outside and remove my glasses, shoes, belt and stand me against the wall and search me. Outside the terminal are three marked cars, a cop with a dog, and a couple supervisors.

Still handcuffed, Im put in the back seat of a car for about a half hour as my fate is discussed. Finally im driven to the cop shop and put into a cage, still handcuffed. After about an hour or so, a couple suits from the FBI, ATF and Fatherland Security show up and take me to a room to ask questions. Having gone through my luggage, they found a t-shirt with what could have been considered a Nazi slogan on it ("Das Reich"..the shirt was left at kitiara's by one of the Shooty Goodness people when he changed clothes to go to dinner. Then there were the books...Small Arms Infantry Tactics, Counter Insurgency manual, etc, etc. Are you in the militia? Are you a white supremacist? (Asked by the Aryan, blonde haired, blue eyed FBI dweeb) Why do you have all these guns? Where did you get them? Do you own other guns? Do you own body armour? If you knew someone was going to commit a crime you'd tell us right? Etc, etc.

Back into the cage, and handcuffs, for another few hours. Finally, around 10pm, the let me go after taking all my guns and other weapons. Im charged with 'bringing a dangerous article onto airport property'. Huh? The guns were all in a locked case, as required.

Hire a lawyer. $900 "Start to finish" is the quoted price. Apparently 'start to finish' doesnt include $500 to file a motion to get a Bill Of Particulars from the prosecutor, who was dragging her feet in getting that info to us. After all, how the hell can I defend myself if I dont know what they have a problem with? There were five guns in one gun case and they said the AR-15 was the dangerous article. Why they picked that one out of the five in there seems wierd...after all, if there were five guns in there wouldnt each one be just as dangerous? (And, no, there was no 'assault weapon' ban that affected any of this..it was a post-ban gun). So the court date was yesterday. I show up in my Going To Court suit. Docket lists 49 cases... Lawyer arrives. So we get into the courtroom. Judge asks if tehres any changes. Prosecutorgirl says the state of VA chooses not to pursue charges at this time for lack of evidence. Im free to go. Great. Now where the hell are my guns? I was thinking my toys had been turned over to the tender mercies of ATF for 'testing'. I was told I could go to the airport copshop and get them back. So, later that afternoon, kitiara (who was very supportive, very outraged, and very understanding of the whole mess) gave me a ride to the copshop. I went in , showed idea, and me and the proprty clerk inventoried my toys...AR-15, Browning P35, 1911 45, S&W .38, S&W .357, Glock 9mm, butterfly knife, etc, etc. The property clerk and the other cop did NOT seem happy to let me have my toys back. Probably the kind of cops that think only they should have guns. So I sign the forms and get my toys back. The property clerk walks them to the parking lot and puts them in the truck. He then stands there as if expecting me to thank him for carrying them..fat chance. We leave.

Now, how to get them back to MT? Well, feeling boldened and a little bit confident that the airport cops realize they might have screwed the pooch, I figure I'll check 'em in the same as last time but paying much, much more attention to every step. I filled out a declaration tag for EACH gun (overkill, yes) and followed them as they x-rayed the bags. No problems. I didnt relax until the plane was actually airborne and I didnt fully feel safe until I was on the ground in Missoula with my cases in hand.

$1500 in lawyer fees, $500 in airfare, another $1000 in lost time from work.

And it isnt over. TSA wants to fine me $1200 for failure to declare firearms...but if I dont contest it, they'll cut the fine to $600. I asked the attorney if he thought that maybe the TSA will see that VA didnt have a leg to stand on and maybe wash their hands of it too. We'll see.

The reason I havent said anything was because until I got my guns back, I didnt want to make any waves. If some well-meaning person started asking questions or rallying public opinion or something like that it would have , in my opinion, just made things more difficult. But, now that my guns are safely with me, it doesnt have to be a secret anymore.

Needless to say, I wasnt a big fan of airport security before and Im far less a fan of them now.

Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:32:14 AM EDT
Nobody is safe when the protectors don't know their own rules, and overreact to nonexistant violations.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:32:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2003 7:33:01 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
[url=http://www.livejournal.com/users/kitiara/1069338.html][b]What was I thinking, reading Stephen King at the airport![/b][/url]

What a completely surreal evening I had last night. As I'd mentioned, I reluctantly dropped John off at the airport around 4pm or so. I went with him to the baggage counter and waited while he filled out the paperwork to declare his firearms, walked with him to the security line, and kissed him goodbye. I thought I might need some distraction, so I had agreed to meet some friends for dinner at 7pm. I went home, changed, and then headed to the restaurant. Just as I pulled into the parking lot, my cell phone rang.

I said hello, and a polite stranger asked if I was [my name], identified himself as a police officer, then asked if I was safe and okay. My forehead wrinkled, and I said I was. The officer then asked if I knew John, and whether he had (a) been staying with me this past week and (b) brought firearms with him for the purpose of shooting at the local range. I said yes to both, and jumped to the conclusion that John must've not cleared each and every gun - I know I'm obsessive about checking mine when I travel - it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to have left one magazine in when dealing with the number of guns he brought with him. So the officer then asked if I'd mind coming to the airport to talk to him.

I left messages with my dinner companions and pulled into the drab police building at Dulles airport about 20 minutes later.

First it was very odd - they wouldn't even tell me that John was there. I had to ask for the officer who'd called me *by name* and say why I was there, and then state my "relationship" to John. It was only then that they even admitted they had him. The officer who'd called me came out and introduced himself, then introduced me to two FBI agents who asked if I wouldn't mind talking to them about John. One was named Joel - clean-cut broad-shouldered all-American looking guy. The other one, Tim, was tall, pale, and lanky with a blonde crew cut and blue eyes. Both seemed pretty young - couldn't have been out of their early thirties if that. Like the officer before them, they were extremely polite.

They told me that John was in a little trouble. They dodged my questions at first, and then said he had brought a firearm with him that he had not declared. The way in which they said it implied that he had a gun I hadn't seen, that it was loaded, and that it was on his person. They didn't outright say any of those things - but they very adroitly led me right to that conclusion. Then they started asking me questions. Who was I, how did I meet John, what were our political views, did we "meet with others who might have similar political views" on his visit... lots of things that were clearly leading right to the idea that he was some sort of milita nut who was here on a recruiting mission or some such.

They started out treating me like some poor stupid femme who'd been unknowingly lured into some sort of illicit affair with a Very Dangerous Fellow. On top of that, both were extremely flirty. They seemed to think that I didn't know John had any guns with him. When I said I did, they wanted to know how many and what types. Then whether I knew that he had "illegal high capacity magazines with him." I said that so far as I knew, all of his high-cap mags were pre-ban and thus not illegal. They asked if I knew he'd made "modifications" to his guns. I said sure, he'd put a new trigger in his Glock while he was here. Stupid, stupid questions calculated to make me think he was some sort of maniac.

Then they moved on and asked me if I knew what kind of "literature" he had with him. This really irked me. I was under the impression that there were no banned books in America, and one can read whatever the hell one pleases. On top of that, they said "he has a Das Reich t-shirt with him - is he a white supremacist?" To paraphrase Darling John, "does he *look* white to you?" I explained that a friend had left the shirt at my house while changing for dinner, and that John had taken it with him so that he could mail it back to said friend with some thank you gifts. And John approached this better than I did - the shirt was not his size.

White supremacists. Hmph. My gun instructor is black. Hell, the guy who owns the range we frequent is black. John himself is half-puerto rican. The gentleman to whom the 'Das Reich' shirt belonged is married to a Lebanese belly dancer.

Anyhow.

They started asking about me. Did I shoot, when did I pick up the hobby and why, did my father know that a man from Montana carrying firearms was visiting me. Why wasn't my father worried for my safety. HAH! Like I'm some poor defenseless doormat. I explained that my father raised me in such a way that he didn't *have* to worry about me.

Then the kicker. The "this is really supposed to shock you" question: "are you aware that he had two pairs of handcuffs in his luggage?" I said I was. Then they said "why would he be travelling with those? At which point I said, "are you sure you want me to answer that question?" They said yes, and I said "Some people *like* that sort of thing."

They both blushed. And quickly moved on. There were other strange things, like "your friend could be in a lot of trouble, yet you seem very calm, why is that?" and "did he meet anyone when he was not with you, unbeknownst to you?" (duh, if I don't *know* about it how can I answer that question?" and "would you be willing to take a lie detector test?"

Overall it was surreal, like I said. It was like something out of a television show - guy from Montana, travelling with guns (gee, there's a shocker), he MUST be a terrorist! The one thing they kept saying over and over was "tell us about John, anything you can think of." I'd say "what specifically do you want to know?" and they'd just shrug and say "anything." I refused to do that, beyond noting his fondness for Krispy Kreme donuts. After about 45 minutes they ran out of things to ask me and told me they were about to interview John, and that I could wait in the lobby.

The lobby was like an ice chest, so I gave the officers at the desk my number and went to get some coffee. Figuring I'd be waiting awhile, I also grabbed a copy of Stephen King's The Gunslinger. I'd tried reading The Drawing of the Three once and hated it, but my friends have been raving about the revised edition so I thought I'd give it a shot. I'm sitting back in the police lobby reading and sipping my Latte, and Tim The Friendly FBI Agent comes out and says "you know, what are we supposed to think when we see you reading books like that?" He wasn't kidding.

WHAT THE @#%!???

Since when is it "suspicious" in this country to read fucking Stephen King? It wasn't "Blowing Up Airports 101." It wasn't even nonfiction for goodness sake. At this point, I asked Tim for a business card. He said he didn't have any, but I was welcome to his phone number, and winked at me. Guess he likes handcuffs too.

While I waited in the lobby, several other police officers came out to talk to me, just casually. Said they'd heard I liked shooting and wanted to hear about what kinds of guns I had, that sort of thing. Each and every one was flirtacious as all get out, even the ones old enough to be my dad. I overheard one of them say to his friend as he was walking away, "she's really something." *rolls eyes* Lecherous bastards.

When they finally released John, around 10pm (remember, I'd gotten the call at 7, and he had to have been there since about 5), the officer who came out to tell me they were releasing him said to me, very pointedly "you might want to be rethink your lifestyle choices, and maybe think twice before travelling with your firearms."
View Quote
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:33:52 AM EDT
Why anybody flies (unless absolutely required to) is beyond me.  It used to be fun.  Now its humiliating and expensive.

Scott
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:35:17 AM EDT
He has a great lawsuit, and he should pursue it, as well as filing administrative complaints against every pantywaist involved.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:37:31 AM EDT
Check out the comments- one of the items listed as confiscated was "copy of the bill of rights."

Mike
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:47:06 AM EDT
The TSA is an incompetent piece of sh*t organization.  It was a bad idea to give the Air Marshall program to the TSA from the FAA, but alas, now Customs and Border Protection has it, so please, feel safe.

Interestingly enough, TSA now has to fire 6000 of it's full time airport screeners, and then rehire 3000 seasonal (part time) screeners.  Then it has to fire 3000 more next year.  

I wouldn't take pride in an agency that lets Muhammed get on a plane, but then reams the 80 year old grandmother a new ass looking for nail clippers.

I know, a lot of rambling right there.  Just more ammunition to back up our disdain for the TSA.

Karty
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:53:52 AM EDT
I wonder if there was a warrant signed to seach the luggage?  This is just nuts.  Too bad for those two.  They are on the watch-list now.

Scott
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:57:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Scottman:
Why anybody flies (unless absolutely required to) is beyond me.  It used to be fun.  Now its humiliating and expensive.

Scott
View Quote

We're flying to Austin Texas on Sunday only because I promised the kids we'd visit them for Christmas this time and we don't have enough time to drive down there. This will be my first flight since the inception of Nazi airways. I'm not taking a gun and I'm still expecting a hassle. I'll probably get in some amount of trouble because I have very little patience with dip shit security people acting like they have authority over me. I hate the very thought of going through this bullshit.  It's sort of a shame as I really love to fly.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:57:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Karty:
I know, a lot of rambling right there.  Just more ammunition to back up our disdain for the TSA.
View Quote


Yeah, but it was the "airport police" and the feds that detained them.  They could have told the TSA chumps "Ze paperss are in order."  Instead they held a man, searched his shit, humiliated him in front of the general public...

It's not JUST the TSA.

Scott
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:58:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2003 7:59:14 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Originally Posted By Scottman:

I wonder if there was a warrant signed to seach the luggage?  This is just nuts.  Too bad for those two.  They are on the watch-list now.

Scott
View Quote


They don't need a warrant.

By stepping on airport property, you give up all your Rights.

They can feel up your wife's breasts, and anally rape you if they'd like.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:59:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By prebans:
Check out the comments- one of the items listed as confiscated was "copy of the bill of rights."

Mike
View Quote


Seditous material, that!!
Scott
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:01:00 AM EDT
Un-f***ing-believable! [V]
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:02:58 AM EDT
At least all the officers went home safely that night.  [%|]
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:12:16 AM EDT
This is just one of the reasons that I won't fly, the other is that I refuse to give up my pocket knife. I don't feel a man is properly dressed without a pocket knife.
 Have you checked with your lawyer about a suit against the airlines? I think a good harassment suit for say, $250,000.00 might make them think twice about pulling this crap on someone else in the near future. I'm sure a good lawyer could come up with something to sue them over.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:18:03 AM EDT
Sheesh!  This is really making me feel at ease.  I'm flying to the UK next month.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:22:10 AM EDT
I know the guy that it happened to.

His girlfriend just got into shooting this year, and owns a Kimber ProCarry, Glock (17 I think) and so on....

Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:27:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
They don't need a warrant.

By stepping on airport property, you give up all your Rights.

They can feel up your wife's breasts, and anally rape you if they'd like.
View Quote



Well...more reason to avoid it.  Let the industry colapse under the gov't weight.

Scott
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 8:51:42 AM EDT
I just got back to Albuquerque from a whirlwind trip to Phoenix and immediately back. As I was planning on needing to stay in the Phoenix area for several days, I wanted to take my carry 45 with me and began the search for the lawful way to transport firearms on Southwest Airlines. On SWA's website, they listed the process in detail and I printed the instructions and off to the airport I went. As this was the first time I had flown with a weapon, I was a bit nervous of the reception I would get,.....you know the questions "what do you need THAT for", "why are you taking THAT with you", "are you some kind of gun nut".....those questions.

I was pleasantly suprised to find a knowledgeable counter person, declared my unloaded firearm in the locked case, filled out the declaration form and then she had me stand by a few minutes until the TSA people could screen the bag to make sure there were no problems. She was very helpful and courteous.

On the way back from Phoenix, I used the curbside skycap sevice and once again declared the weapon and was wisked throught the process with no muss and the only fuss was an explosives 'hit' from the sniffer......not on the weapon or gun case, but on my copy of Band of Brothers. It seems I had lent that copy to a friend and he had put the case in his ammo bag for transport. It got a little exciting there for a minute until they searched every nook and cranny of my BoB DVD case and decided that there were no grenades, claymores or AMFO bombs hidden within.

Anyway, after things settled down a bit, I was on my way with little or no hassle.

Fly Southwest Airlines.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 9:01:19 AM EDT
...and yet we let the federal gov't bail out the airline industry with billions of our tax dollars.  If they can't operate profitably like any other business, they should fold like any other business.

Stories like this really piss me off, not just because of the shabby treatment by a bunch of retarded monkeys in uniforms, but because our tax dollars are being used to bail out an industry which considers nonsense like this acceptable practice for treatment of its customers.  Fuck 'em.  Lawyer up and let your congressman and senators know its time to let the airlines die if they can't make it on their own.  Maybe some of those TSA monkeys will lose their jobs and have to start wearing a uniform they're more qualified to wear...like doorman, or garbage collector.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 9:08:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rn45:
Originally Posted By Scottman:
Why anybody flies (unless absolutely required to) is beyond me.  It used to be fun.  Now its humiliating and expensive.

Scott
View Quote

We're flying to Austin Texas on Sunday only because I promised the kids we'd visit them for Christmas this time and we don't have enough time to drive down there. This will be my first flight since the inception of Nazi airways. I'm not taking a gun and I'm still expecting a hassle. I'll probably get in some amount of trouble because I have very little patience with dip shit security people acting like they have authority over me. I hate the very thought of going through this bullshit.  It's sort of a shame as I really love to fly.
View Quote


I haven't flown since 9/11, and this is why.  Some of you folks have a LOT more patience for fools than I do.

Fuck, it's getting to where you have to have a goddamn lawyer on retainer before you go to the airport!
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 9:11:57 AM EDT
It is so funny to see everyone upset now....when the airline industry has been given Carte Blanche to screw over its customers for so long........
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 9:15:34 AM EDT
 I'm a newcomer to this board.  But what you have described does not suprise me at all.  I quite transporting guns on airplanes.  I had a bad experience in Mexico, and DFW.

 I live is Oklahoma where 75% of the vehicles on the road contain at least 1 gun.  I have been stopped a number of times by state troopers with a rifle, or pistol in the seat, and not even be asked about it.  

 Last Feb I passed thru a roadblock within a couple hundred yards of my office.  I know most of the local State Troopers & never worry much about it.  But, it so happened I had a young pup not from my area.  He walk up to my truck, and ask for my informaiton.  While standing there he noticed a 22-250 in the seat.  He ask if the weapon was loaded, and I replied probally.  I reached over a pulled the bolt back and a round ejected.  He then yelled " Loaded Weapon "  A number of troopers walked over, ask me to go to the hood of my truck.  

 I explained that I had a CC lic. and that I had a number of loaded weapons in the truck.  They explained to me the correct procedure, if I was in the same position again.  Then let me go.  That is the difference between poeple with comman sense and some airport ( 5$ per hr ) security person.

 We all have to face the fact things have changed.  Travel with our firearms is much harder than it use to be.  
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 9:33:45 AM EDT
I had a good experience with Continental back in November: [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=214733&w=searchPop]Link to thread[/url]

I had a copy of Continental's instructions (printed out) on how to pack the firearms, along with the page from the TSA website, on "Transporting Hunting & Fishing Equipment".  I figured I'd be covered with information if hassled.  Pleasant surprise, I wasn't hassled at all.  

But I hate flying anyway, even MORE so after 9/11, with all the "security" hassles.  I'm sick of having to take off my boots and my belt, dammit!
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 9:49:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dmanwithagun:
 I reached over a pulled the bolt back and a round ejected.  He then yelled " Loaded Weapon "  
View Quote


What color lipstick was he wearing?
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 10:07:23 AM EDT
Am I the only one who routinely declares EVERY firearm I check?

Seems to me that if this guys wasn't carrying around a a "counter-insurgency manual" and hadn't failed to declare 4 firearms it wouldn't have been so bad for him.  That, and then the Nazi shit and I would have found every reason to detain and question is ass too.

What the hell is "Shooty Goodness?"
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 10:31:16 AM EDT
Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
Un-f***ing-believable! [V]
View Quote


Far, FAAAAR from it.  Half the assholes in those jobs wouldn't know a rulebook from a phonebook, and the other half are just.. Assholes :)

 I fly once or twice a year on average.  Every time I've flown since the first of this year, my baggage has arrived with a friendly little xeroxed note telling me some clown has pawed through my gear, evidently because it set off the bomb scanner.  Don't think it's just the US though, coming home from France in the spring, I got the same crap.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 11:00:18 AM EDT
He broke the rules.  Although the detaining, confiscating firearms, and other stuff is complete crap.

When I flew with guns, I called the airlines and learned that their rules are also subject to the individual airport's rules.  They told me the rules and that I could have up to 5 pistols in one case or 3 rifles/shotguns.  I asked if I could have 3 rifles/shotguns and a handgun in one case and they said sure, then said hold on and they checked with the airports I was flying from/to.  After a few minutes they came back and said no, BWI believes that once one long gun is in a case, it is a 3 gun limit, so I'd need two cases.  They said lockable cases can be purchased at the ticket counter, but they cost a bunch there.  So I got a $20 case at walmart, and put my shotgun in a seperate case so that no case had over 3 guns.  I was legal and following the rules.  The TSA also had me wait while they x-ray and checked my bags since they were locked.  All of the security personnel were polite and prompt(except in DFW where they all drooled over the guns for a while before letting me go, but the compliments were worth the wait).

This guy had 4 handguns and one rifle in a single case.  If Dulles is like BWI, which is more than likely the case, he broke the rules.  The ticket attendant should have noted this, and offered to sell a case for the gun over the limit.

This guy also had a bunch of questionable books, which probably would have never been noticed and searched if he didn't break the guns/case limit. They make it look like he was just baiting the TSA/police.  I can see a small arms infantry tactics, but the nazi stuff and the "Counter insurgency manual, etc.." part makes me suspicious that he had a whole bunch of bad looking things with him.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 11:57:18 AM EDT
"the officer who came out to tell me they were releasing him said to me, very pointedly "you might want to be rethink your lifestyle choices, and maybe think twice before travelling with your firearms."

The proper response to that is, "Sir, that sounds like a threat.  You took an oath of office to uphold the Constitution of the United States.  Perhaps you should rethink that before making threats about violating citizens civil rights."
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 12:00:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
"the officer who came out to tell me they were releasing him said to me, very pointedly "you might want to be rethink your lifestyle choices, and maybe think twice before travelling with your firearms."

The proper response to that is, "Sir, that sounds like a threat.  You took an oath of office to uphold the Constitution of the United States.  Perhaps you should rethink that before making threats about violating citizens civil rights."
View Quote



I would reply "[i]Why, what's wrong with being law abiding citizens?"[/i]
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 12:10:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gunman0:
...This guy also had a bunch of questionable books... makes me suspicious that he had a whole bunch of bad looking things with him.
View Quote


When exactly did books become illegal? And when did "bad looking things" become reason enough to piss all over someone's rights?
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 12:30:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DJbump:
Originally Posted By gunman0:
...This guy also had a bunch of questionable books... makes me suspicious that he had a whole bunch of bad looking things with him.
View Quote


When exactly did books become illegal? And when did "bad looking things" become reason enough to piss all over someone's rights?
View Quote


They didn't, but flying with questionable materials is just asking for it.  If I were flying with guns, and threw a bunch of arabic books, some with pictures of guns and tactics in them, I'd expect to be detained for a long time.  If you put on a white sheet and go hang out in a club in harlem, expect to get beat up.  If you wear baggy clothing and  and have a big buldge in your pocket expect to be tailed by security at Wal-mart.  If you are a man and wear womens' clothing, expect people to point, whisper and laugh when you go out in public.  Expect the police to arrest you in the above situations if a problem occurs.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 12:51:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2003 12:52:44 PM EDT by DJbump]
Originally Posted By gunman0:
...Expect the police to arrest you in the above situations if a problem occurs.
View Quote


The above listed hypotheticals are questions of JUDGEMENT, while the situation that occurred is a question of LAW. Where did the citizen in question violate the LAW?
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 12:57:32 PM EDT
Hey, what happened to the guy who got the glock mags stolen from his luggage?  Who was that, and was there an update?
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 1:06:47 PM EDT
Why would you let them handcuff you????
You know at that point things are going downhill rapidly for you.

Sue the fuck out of the little pussies.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 1:26:04 PM EDT
Time to feed the hogs.  Ops
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 1:27:16 PM EDT
FYI: I've taken firearms into airports. They did not need to be in locked cases, in fact they preferred they weren't. You also had to take them out of the box and show they were empty, before they would give you the declaration tag.

IIRC: someone has a ND at DFW once while checking in their firearm.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 1:36:54 PM EDT
I wont comment on this, TheBeeKeeper will just lock my account. Too bad there isnt freedom of speach on ARFCOM.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 1:59:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2003 2:01:40 PM EDT by gunman0]
Originally Posted By DJbump:
Originally Posted By gunman0:
...Expect the police to arrest you in the above situations if a problem occurs.
View Quote


The above listed hypotheticals are questions of JUDGEMENT, while the situation that occurred is a question of LAW. Where did the citizen in question violate the LAW?
View Quote


It is my belief, due to text in the first post that the citizen put too many firearms into one of his cases, which is against that airport's rules.  


here were five guns in one gun case and they said the AR-15 was the dangerous article. Why they picked that one out of the five in there seems wierd...
View Quote


The reason the AR-15 was the dangerous article is since it was the long gun.  A pistol in place of the AR-15 would have been 5 handguns which is fine, since the rule is 5 handguns, or 3 long guns.  This caused TSA to open and search all of his bags.  At this point, he would just be fined for violating airport firearms rules.  But they found suspicious materials in his luggage when they searched, which is the poor judgement on the citizen's part, and that lead them to detain him until they could resolve the situation.  The charges were all for violations of the airports firearms rules/laws.  The citizen also sounds like he was a dick to the cops which never helps in this type of situation.  I have friends that tend to rub cops the wrong way, and they always end up with more tickets and troubles than totally cooperative people.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 2:39:39 PM EDT
Group buy on a Citation or maybe even a King Air.

this would solve alot of problems.

Link Posted: 12/19/2003 2:47:57 PM EDT
gunman0:

Do you have a reference to these individual "airport rules or regulations"?  The FAA and TSA have specific regulations related to traveling with firearms and other items but AFAIK there are no airports that have different Federal regulations.  

The airlines do have different polices as to how many firearms and in some cases the type of firearm they will allow you to check as baggage.  These airline policies are not FAA or TSA regulations.  


Link Posted: 12/19/2003 2:48:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gunman0:
It is my belief, .... the citizen put too many firearms into one of his cases, which is against that airport's rules.  

View Quote


[b]WELL!!!![/b] he might have broken a [b]rule[/b]!!!  Why not just have the $6 an hour Mcsecurity deputies shoot him on the spot??

How about saying
" I'm sorry sir, you can't have more then X # of firearms per case. You'll need to recase those and then come back. Here is a copy of the rules/regulation for you, if that'll help."

Link Posted: 12/19/2003 2:49:59 PM EDT
Get a lawyer.  Totally BS.  Last weekend I was flying back from ATL and I tried to check my duty weapon.  I had a couple of free drink coupons, so...well you know.  TSA would no let me check it in, too dangerous, so I had to carry on the plane!
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 3:09:45 PM EDT
They're not allowed to serve you when you're flying armed.  How'd you do that?  
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 3:16:17 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Chimborazo:
Hey, what happened to the guy who got the glock mags stolen from his luggage?  Who was that, and was there an update?
View Quote


I believe it was fizassist and it happened when he was relocating from OH to AZ(?) - haven't heard any updates though - I think they are long gone.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 3:39:11 PM EDT
Again - this jackass is trying to act as if it was the guns that caused his problem.  It was not.

He failed to declare all of his guns - he admits to only filling out two tags.  I may be wrong, but I have always done one PER gun.

Then, when the security folks look at his stuff, they find Nazi clothing and a counter-insurgency manual.  

I'm sorry, folks, -  but this is when a GOOD cop cooks up ANY excuse to detain a suspect for further questioning.  I would do the same thing, the punk triggered too many red flags.

Why was he flying around with that stuff?
I can only imagine how he was probably dressed and what else was said - we are, after all, only hearing HIS side of the story.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 3:46:48 PM EDT
I had a TSA experience that bears including.  Flying from John Wayne in Ontario CA... Big instruction pasted across the checking counter 'Do not lock your luggage - TSA will need to search the interior'  So I don't lock it.  At one point the TSA calls me over and asks me to give them the lock for the case so that it can proceed, I say "Just lock the outside" they say I must lock the interior case too.  I say I don't have a lock - an older male TSA employee comes up with a padlock for me.

1.  There was a screwup in following the laws and rule - hence the lock requirement.
2.  A nice TSA employee provided me a free solution.

Shouldn't have happened in the first place, but it did and I didn't have a bad taste.  


Further, it seems like another step towards the 'Police State' that we're seeing develop around us, it should surprise any of us that this happens.  But what I don't think most of realize is that 60 percent of the population will tell you that what happened to you was reasonable and 'needful' in light of 9/11.  They'll figure that since you're a gun owner you're simply an unindicted co-cospirator anyway and wont care.  For this reason, I call us gun owners the 'new niggers' in America.  Let me explain.

Not too long ago, if some heinouse crime were committed against someone, it wasn't heinous if they were black.  A black man hangs because some girl lies to her parents about being out with her boyfriend, and says that some black kid wouldn't let her past him.  Things like this HAPPENED and was an especially ugly stain on our country.  These days ANYTHING you do to a gun owner is viewed the same way.  Cops can do what they will to us, and if we object then we experience what happened to a black man trying to live on the wrong block in the wrong neighborhood.  I find it all too common that the word 'militia' is used in such a perjorative sense on such a consistent basis when describing us gun-nuts.  I, too, have been asked that question by the law.  I imagine many of you have.

Just another symptom of a disease, and not a disease that's going away by any easy means.

Link Posted: 12/19/2003 3:52:54 PM EDT
From the TSA website:

Firearms - There are specific regulatory requirements to transport a firearm:

The firearm must be checked with the air carrier as luggage. Firearms are prohibited from carry-on luggage.

The firearm must be declared orally or in writing in accordance with the air carriers procedures (contact your air carrier for their specific procedures).

The firearm must be unloaded.

The firearm must be carried in a hard-sided container.

The container must be locked and only the passenger may retain the key or combination.

All checked baggage is subject to inspection. If during the inspection process it is necessary to open the container, air carriers are required to locate the passenger and the passenger must unlock the container for further inspection. The firearm may not be transported if the passenger can not be located to unlock the container. If you are traveling with a firearm, pay close attention to airport pages and announcements. If requested, provide the cooperation necessary to inspect your firearm.

[url]http://www.tsa.gov/public/interapp/editorial/editorial_1188.xml[/url]

Link Posted: 12/19/2003 3:53:08 PM EDT
OK, I'll bite...

I've flown several times with firearms in locked cases, and followed the same procedures as fight4yourrights.

If he "violated" TSA rules, what the hell is the correct procedure?  Does he have a claim against the airline for accepting the firearms without informing him of the correct procedure?  Does he have a claim for improper detention by TSA?
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 4:02:56 PM EDT
rkbar15:

I was told by the American Airlines girl when I called to check the rules.  It did not seem to be differences in the regulations, as much as different interpretations.  Kinda like the ATF.  Some airports interpreted it as any case with at least one long gun can only have 3 guns, while any case with handguns only can have 5.  While others interpreted it as up to 5 total guns with no more than three long guns.  She called to check how the airport interpreted the rules.  This only came up because I wanted to place 3 long guns and one handgun in one case and thus it was a grey area.  


Only_Hits_Count:

I said in my original post that they should have just told him he needed to buy another case.  The police went overboard in this case, but the guy did break a rule, and upon further inspection he did have suspicious books.  He should never have been arrested.  He should have been fined and possibly refused seating on the flight, no more.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 4:23:03 PM EDT
These are the regulations from the CFR.  It appears any additional requirements are the individual airlines policy and not by Federal regulation.  

THIS DATA CURRENT AS OF THE FEDERAL REGISTER DATED DECEMBER 17, 2003

49 CFR - CHAPTER XII - PART 1540

§  1540.111  Carriage of weapons, explosives, and incendiaries by individuals.

......................

(c) In checked baggage. A passenger may not transport or offer for transport in checked baggage:

(1) Any loaded firearm(s).

(2) Any unloaded firearm(s) unless --

(i) The passenger declares to the aircraft operator, either orally or in writing, before checking the baggage, that the passenger has a firearm in his or her bag and that it is unloaded;

(ii) The firearm is unloaded;

(iii) The firearm is carried in a hard-sided container; and

(iv) The container in which it is carried is locked, and only the passenger retains the key or combination.

(3) Any unauthorized explosive or incendiary.

(d) Ammunition. This section does not prohibit the carriage of ammunition in checked baggage or in the same container as a firearm. Title 49 CFR part 175 provides additional requirements governing carriage of ammunition on aircraft.

[67 FR 8353, Feb. 22, 2002, as amended at 67 FR 41639, June 19, 2002]

[url]http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_49/49cfr1540_nav_00.html[/url]

 
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