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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/12/2001 10:01:16 AM EDT
What's your take on reparations for Holocaust survivors? I agree with it to some extent, but it seems to me that reasonable limits have been reached and passed. Now computer makers are liable almost 60 years later?!? I think the Holocaust was as horrible as the next guy, but placing blame to this extent(see article below) seems more like an extortion attempt rather than a search for justice. What do you think?? --------------------- Suit Alleges IBM Assisted Nazis Updated: Mon, Feb 12 01:29 PM EST By PAULINE JELINEK, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON (AP) - A lawsuit alleges U.S. computer giant IBM took part in "crimes against humanity" by allowing its machines to be used in Nazi death camps. The suit seeks to force IBM to open its archives and pay "any ill-gotten gains ... from it conduct during World War II," roughly estimated at $10 million in 1940s money, said Michael Hausfeld, lead lawyer in the case. The suit follows dozens filed in recent years against various entities to get compensation for survivors, including those who lost bank accounts, were used as slave labor, or had insurance policies that were never honored. Hausfeld told reporters the IBM suit is another step in the process, but that any money awarded would go to things like Holocaust education and not to plaintiffs. "Over the course of time, what we have attempted to do was revisit and reopen the Holocaust to determine not only who were the major perpetrators, but also who were the necessary accomplices." Hausfeld said. "IBM USA implemented, aided, assisted or consciously participated in the commission of crimes against humanity and violations of human rights ... by providing technology, products and service it knew would be used to facilitate persecution and genocide," the suit charges. Hausfeld said he does "not yet" have documents proving U.S. officers of IBM knew this, and that is one reason the suit asks the company to open its archives. The suit coincides with the release of a book on the subject and IBM last week alerted its employees about the book with an internal memo. The book, by Washington-based researcher Edwin Black, is titled "IBM and the Holocaust." It claims that punch-card machines built by IBM were a key factor enabling the Nazis to make their killing operations more efficient. That is also the focus of the lawsuit, filed Saturday in New York. The company hasn't yet seen either the book or the lawsuit and isn't commenting in detail, Ian Colley, IBM's European spokesman in Paris, said Monday. "If this book points to new and verifiable information that advances understanding of this tragic era, IBM will examine it and ask that appropriate scholars and historians do the same," the company said in its statement to employees last week. IBM's German subsidiary during the Nazi era, Deutsche Hollerith Maschinen GmbH, was taken over by the Nazis. A machine made by the company - believed to have been used in the 1933 German census, the year the Nazis took power - is on display at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington. The German division, which after the war became IBM Germany, has paid into Germany's government-industry initiative to compensate people forced to work for the Nazis during the war. Colley said IBM itself has turned over all its information on the company's Nazi-era operations to universities. "We obviously find anything to do with the Nazi regime abhorrent and w
Link Posted: 2/12/2001 10:04:48 AM EDT
I think it is going too far, but I can understand the want for revenge. I would hunt those bastards till the day I die if it were me, but at the same time, do WW2 vets sue mauser for making the rifles that shot at them?
Link Posted: 2/12/2001 11:44:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2001 11:45:32 AM EDT by Longrange]
I don't believe that this is about Nazi's, Holocaust survivors or IBM. I believe that another lawyer smells [u]MONEY[/u]. Eventually everyone but politicians and lawyers will be broke and they will have to resort to filing lawsuits against each other.
Link Posted: 2/12/2001 11:50:35 AM EDT
So the basis for there proposed lawsuit against IBM is that IBM built and sold the punch card machine used by the Germans in the 1933 Census???? You are right, this is about nothing more than MONEY and how much can they extort from IBM.
Link Posted: 2/12/2001 12:02:02 PM EDT
Its ashame that the memories of those tortured and murdered are being exploited for profit by their very relatives. What's next, a law suit against the shoe lace makers who made the laces that tied the boots that Nazi's wore when they kicked prisoners? Pretty ugly when survivors families dilute the experience of attempted genocide with their hunger for money.
Link Posted: 2/12/2001 12:06:44 PM EDT
Although being jewish myself i must definitly say that is going way to far. im going to have to agree w/ longrange and M4 here. its about money, and its a shame what these people are turning a attempted genocide into profit.
Link Posted: 2/12/2001 3:53:50 PM EDT
Don't the thousands of IBM M1 carbines and other wartime products used to liberate Europe make up for their punch card machines?
Link Posted: 2/12/2001 4:55:14 PM EDT
As far as I'm concerned its extortion, pure and simple. We've all heard the negative stereotype of the money-grubbing, treacherous jews. Can someone please explain to me why some people in the jewish community seem so hell-bent on reinforcing it?
Link Posted: 2/12/2001 5:14:50 PM EDT
How much is enough? When will they let this aspect of it go? It`s a good thing I`m not a judge cause I wouldn`t have the patience.
Link Posted: 2/12/2001 5:39:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2001 6:05:47 PM EDT by RealOaf]
You're damn right, its about the M-O-N-E-Y. So what! Any of you have a family member murdered by a tyrannical gov't? What is your uncle's life worth? Any of you have your wealth, land, property seized by a tyrannical gov't? If not, your opinion is null & void. That simple. While none of us will really know just how involved IBM, GM, Standard Oil, etc were in the Nazi's war effort, it was much more than they, the companys, are letting on to. How much & who should get the $$$, I don't know. I'm trying to get a bank in Europe to give back hundreds of thousands (including interest) of dollars that they STOLE from my grandparents (who are still alive). Do my grandparent's deserve this money? YOU'RE DAMN SKIPPY! Paul (BTW All the big business of the day, BASF/Krupps/Opel/etc were in cahoots with the Nazi gov't, so they are just as culpable).
Link Posted: 2/12/2001 7:15:37 PM EDT
As much as I hate to say it, the legally elected government of Germany bought legal to export machines from an American company in the depths of the Depression and proceeded to use them for illegal and immoral purposes. It's no different than the firearms industry lawsuits today. A legal to sell weapon is legally sold to an individual. At some point that weapon gets into the hands of someone who proceeds to use it to commit a crime. Instead of punishing the person committing the act, we sue the manufacturer. No one is going to get MONEY out of dead Nazis or two bit criminals. You go after the entity with the MONEY whether it's morally right or not.
Link Posted: 2/12/2001 7:26:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/12/2001 7:59:44 PM EDT by M4]
Yeah, your grandparents ARE entitled to THEIR money. I don't think anyone questions that. What I do question is trying to milk every nickle out of every single nook and cranny that had even the slightest connection to the Nazi party in the 30's & 40's. There are MANY groups of people who have been fully assaulted by tyranical governments, but I don't see anyone making a fuss about them. You would think that since Jewish people know as well as anyone the horrors of attempted genocide, they would be the first to be advocates for justice for others who have experienced similar situations(ie:Rhwanda). That doesn't appear to be the case though. You would think that, say Cambodians under Pol Pots command, would also qualify for some sort of reparations from foreign governments that did business with his administration. Furthermore, one might think that the same Jewish people who demand payment from every concievable facet of the Nazi experience would also be outspoken supporters of this situation as well. Again, that doesn't appear to be the case. Justice for all.....or just money for me? My point is that the world is made up of millions and millions of people who survived brutal experiences, Cambodians, Rhwandans, Russians and so on....all under tyranical governments. I believe that stolen personal wealth should be repaid, with interest. However, this endless money-grab regarding WWII, I believe, has gotten out of control. There is no justice served in many cases, just pockets lined from places that had nothing to do with Nazi policy, or any inclination as to what the Nazi party was up to behind the lines. And no, I don't think IBM should pay one nickle. Enough is enough. We have the history books, we have actual footage, we had trials, hunts and executions, we have begun to establish where personal wealth of Jewish prisoners was sent, who sent it, who kept it and so on and we have begun to establish fair repayment of that money. Not to mention the creation of an entire country to give to Jewish survivors at the expense of another cultures freedom. Seems like a lot better results than the "other" millions of people who will never collect one cent. Then again, nobody in this country really seems to care about them, do they? It's not about justice at this point in the story, it's about money....JUST money. If it were my family that was murdered by the Nazi's, I would never disgrace their memories with such a shallow, materialistic, thinly veiled ploy who's intent is for a distant generation to capitalize on their deaths. Rwanda - 800,000 dead in 100 days. Or, 8,000 murdered EVERY day for 100 days. Cambodia - 1.8 to 3.1 million dead. Soviet Union - 10 million dead Not to mention the millions currently living under such conditions. Weird that nobody really cares about THESE millions, huh? I guess the only "millions" that have any meaning these days are the ones that fit so nicely in a stock portfolio or bank account.
Link Posted: 2/12/2001 9:24:28 PM EDT
M4: You're correct, that Bad things happen to others, with no one coming to their aid. Oh, well, that is their problem. You feel like leading the way on their cause? I will agree that only those companies that sold there wares fully knowing what they'd be used for should be held accountable.This is idealistic and will never happen. I'm out to help my grandparents, because they are fairly computer illiterate and they are geating old (mid 80's). I don't beleive in "money will solve problems." I DO NOT DESERVE NOR WANT ANY FUNDS RETURNED TO ANY OF MY FAMILY MEMBERS. I DO beleive that what was stolen, needs to be returned, quickly, & without delay. Will some people exploit this situation? Yes. But, then again just how sorry can you feel for a company that markets genocide. Paul
Link Posted: 2/13/2001 12:10:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2001 12:40:37 AM EDT by M4]
Let's explore your "wisdom" one error at a time.... A)"Bad things happen to others, with no one coming to their aid. Oh, well, that is their problem." Think the Jews facing execution and torture in Nazi Germany felt the way you do? What a disgustingly short memory you have. Maybe the Allies would have been better off by thinking like you? Would that have helped your people if, in your own words, they said..."Bad things happen to others, with no one coming to their aid. Oh, well, that is their problem." Americans died saving YOUR people. Hundreds of thousands died because THEY DID CARE. Like I said, you have a very selectively short memory. Funny you feel that about other victims of genocide, but YOUR people deserve the worlds attention.....and money. Nice attitude. It's EXACTLY that attitude that sickens a lot of people. B)"I will agree that only those companies that sold there wares fully knowing what they'd be used for should be held accountable.This is idealistic and will never happen." If we had sold the Germans crematoriums, or gas chambers...that's one thing. We didn't by the way. We sold them administrative equipment and simple computers. Some how that makes IBM responsible, in part for genocide? Not unless there's some money somewhere in it for you, right? Give me a break. Greed is not a virtue. C)"I don't beleive in "money will solve problems." Then why is it that the Jews settle EVERY one of these cases by accepting money? How about a beautiful memorial? How about and international peace and unity initiative funded by the proceeds? How about the construction of a global anti-genocide task force as a settlement? Nope, you guys just want the money. Being given your own nation and turning its previous occupants in to homeless, disgraced second class citizens isn't enough either. Your very own homeland, Isreal isn't enough. You want the money. The world STILL owes you more? Again, greed is NOT a virtue. Try to remember that. D)"I DO NOT DESERVE NOR WANT ANY FUNDS RETURNED TO ANY OF MY FAMILY MEMBERS." How big hearted of you. What a guy! That shred of psuedo-morality adds nothing to your point....other than to make you feel like you said the appropriate thing. E)"But, then again just how sorry can you feel for a company that markets genocide." No, the Nazi's marketed genocide. IBM makes business machines. Try real hard to see the difference. Yeah, you know, now that I think REAL hard about it, I bet you could come up with some off-the-wall connection to just about every segment of society. Hell, I used to enjoy Col.Klink on Hogans Heros. You have an address where I can send a check for my crimes? I MUST owe you something, everyone else does. Your whole arguement crumbles under even brief scrutiny, which only leaves standing the core of your intentions, which is greed. And by the way, don't blame others if they don't support this greed, it might not be a cultural value where they come from.
Link Posted: 2/13/2001 4:49:39 AM EDT
I keep coming back to read this post, fully confident that the underlying anti-semitism, in some, will show itself. I'm not pointing any fingers (yet), but just wait and see...
Link Posted: 2/13/2001 5:13:53 AM EDT
Return the stolen personal wealth to the survivors or their legal heirs. Companies that can be shown to have directly and knowingly participated through such things as use of slave labor need to be penalized. How the money collected from those penalties should be used is problematic. Unless you can show that an individual was harmed directly as a result of that company, I see no reason why a person or his heirs should receive reparations from that company. When we are talking several generations removed from the original victims, I am especially against reparations being paid to individuals. You're getting into the same mindset that says we should pay today's African-Americans reparations for slavery when you start doing things like that.
Link Posted: 2/13/2001 5:51:32 AM EDT
After reading your opinions, I have made up mind. No, IBM (HAL) in my opinion (null&void) Didnt take any land, money,or personal wealth from the jewish people. You guys wanna go after your stolen money, start with the Swiss.Have they given anything back? The jewish people have shown what a stong people they are, and they have done fairly well on the whole. You guys have something coming, I just dont know where from. BTW there are many other ethnic groups that were the target of genocide, and I dont hear them asking for their money back. I dont dispute the fact that lives and money were stolen, I just dont see anyone saying, yea, it was me, here`s your monies.
Link Posted: 2/13/2001 8:43:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/13/2001 8:43:35 AM EDT by An Idiot]
Sounds like we got us some kind of Jew-Boy here with Major Murphy.
Link Posted: 2/13/2001 9:49:00 AM EDT
What is next? Sue God for allowing Hitler to be born?
Link Posted: 2/13/2001 10:31:28 AM EDT
M4 Ya' got the whole and complete answer and very interesting points about others who have suffered just as bad or worse -- they just don't have a well oiled Washington and Hollywood lobby to bring up the whole thing every month since WWII.
Link Posted: 2/13/2001 1:43:41 PM EDT
This is an example of what the holocaust exploiters will do with the money. Like has been said before, it now going beyond reparations and going into the realm of greed. Rabbis loot Holocaust survivors' fund Funnel taxpayer dollars back to selves using kickbacks, synagogues By Anthony C. LoBaido © 2001 WorldNetDaily.com http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21696
Link Posted: 2/13/2001 3:21:56 PM EDT
I suspect "An Idiot" is a troll. ...and an idiot. Yes, it's true, Murphy is Hebrew for potato.
Link Posted: 2/13/2001 3:33:34 PM EDT
I don't like lawsuits PERIOD. I think they trivialize things by trying to put a price on things. What's a traumatic experience worth? What's a life worth? 6,000,000? These posts, and posts about Isreal often bring out the Jew-haters. This post, so far, has not. With the exception noted.
Link Posted: 2/13/2001 5:33:04 PM EDT
M4, You hit the nail on the head. There will me no reparations paid to me or my relatives for the members of our family that died in the winter of '44-45. I'm willing to bet there won't be much money paid to the families of the Slavs, Gypsies, Homosexuals, Allied GI's, German intellectuals, and the "others" who died at the hands of the Nazi's. No group has a monopoly on victimization, yet there are many powerful people in the jewish community who act as if they do. Of course anyone who criticizes the reparations extortion racket or the unjustness of Isreal finds himself immeadiately denounced as an "antisemite" and a "hater." Its time people stood up for whats right, not whats politically correct.
Link Posted: 2/13/2001 8:24:32 PM EDT
Thanks for the compliment. You're right, the monopoly on victimization is repulsive and materialistic. It's time this overkill P.C. nonsense comes to an end. Appropriate empathy is one thing. Condoning extortion in the name of "justice", at the expense of the memories of those who were killed, is flat out sick.
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 12:46:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/14/2001 12:47:56 AM EDT by Ulysse_Nardin_1846]
Daimler/Chrysler watch out. Isn't their cry: "We must never forget"? Some make sure we never will....
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 3:10:40 AM EDT
Actually the gypsies need no reparations. They have already found out how to plunder money from people without the need for eXpensive lawyers.
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 4:25:31 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 4:39:24 AM EDT
You just have to be careful. When you say "the jews" this or "the jews" that, you're lumping them all in together. There are members here that are jewish, and they don't support. The liberals and trolls would love to be able to point their fingers and say we're all a bunch of neo-nazi, conservative, gun-nuts... Don't give them the chance! I could understand the lawsuits if it was you who personally suffered... But relatives? Imagine yourself sitting poolside, rich from the windfall of your Reparation Lawsuit, sying to yourself, "ahhh, this is the life...". That's just not right. That beating was the best thing to ever happen to Rodney King... And that's not right either.
Link Posted: 2/14/2001 4:43:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/15/2001 3:37:43 AM EDT by Ulysse_Nardin_1846]
That beating was the best thing to ever happen to Rodney King... And that's not right either.
View Quote
Whatever happened to the Hyundai? Did he trade it in for a Bentley/Rolls Royce/Aston Martin? Where does old Rodney live now? Holmby Hills/Brentwood/Bel Air? How come the media doesn't do a story on how he's living now? Does anyone know what he did with those millions in taxpayer money he got? Where's Robin Leach when you need him? He's the only guy that can do "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous".
Link Posted: 2/15/2001 6:41:46 AM EDT
A couple of thongs to think about...: #1) -Pogrom against the Russian Jews, about 9 millions exterminated: no compensation. -Extermination of the Armenian: about 250.000 dead: no compensation -Extermination of the American Indians: no compensation -Extermination of the Indios in South America (whole tribe wiped): no compensation -Teh thousands of Italians killed or buried alive in '45 by Yougoslavian partisans: no compensation -Thousands of desaparecidos during Chilean "coup d'etat" by Pinochet: no compensation. I say, once somebody succeed to be compensated, let it be with the interests, because jail for the murderers and money for the victims happen very rarely. #2 I don't know if IBM was aware or not about destination of their accountancy and office machines, but if they were, they have to pay up to the last cent. It was like somebody sells computers, knowing that with the aid of those computers he/she can enforce the control and the prohibition to bear and keep firearms, pratically enacting the Big Brother Law without the possibility for me and you to uprise to freedom. Should't this somebody be considered guilty? See ya
Link Posted: 2/15/2001 6:42:49 AM EDT
A couple of thongs to think about...: #1) -Pogrom against the Russian Jews, about 9 millions exterminated: no compensation. -Extermination of the Armenian: about 250.000 dead: no compensation -Extermination of the American Indians: no compensation -Extermination of the Indios in South America (whole tribe wiped): no compensation -Teh thousands of Italians killed or buried alive in '45 by Yougoslavian partisans: no compensation -Thousands of desaparecidos during Chilean "coup d'etat" by Pinochet: no compensation. I say, once somebody succeed to be compensated, let it be with the interests, because jail for the murderers and money for the victims happen very rarely. #2 I don't know if IBM was aware or not about destination of their accountancy and office machines, but if they were, they have to pay up to the last cent. It was like somebody sells computers, knowing that with the aid of those computers he/she can enforce the control and the prohibition to bear and keep firearms, pratically enacting the Big Brother Law without the possibility for me and you to uprise to freedom. Should't this somebody be considered guilty? See ya
Link Posted: 2/15/2001 7:42:31 PM EDT
I hope we never forget about what happened-so History doesn't repeat itself. Some how I don't think that the German Government called IBM up and said "we need a punch card machine to keep up with all the Jewish people that we are planning to kill". I would like to see some of the money that has been collected from legetimate claims to go to the survivors-not lawyers or some organization that they suck dry.
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