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Posted: 8/22/2005 8:13:13 AM EDT
Inspired by post by PBIR in the thread "If Christ is sitting at the Right Hand of God then where is the Sacrifice?", how could this be considered so?

My reply was: "The Christian "Old Testament" is not the Jewish Bible. It is an extremely novel reading of the septuagint Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures. So reread, the Bible is no longer the history of the covenant and Torah, but a complex web of prediction of the life, death, ans resurrection of jesus the mesiah.

Salvation through the death of jesus, as preached by the disiples of jesus to their fellow Jews was the christian gospel tenet as the forgiveness of sins. This is hardly conceivable.

Only the gentile world would have needed a gospel of forgiveness. Jews already knew about divine readiness to forgive the repentant, irregardless of sacrifice.


source:CHRISTIAN ANITSEMITISM: A History of Hate, William Nicholls, 1995, pp. 114-115.

_____________________________________________________________

My posts have been viewed poorly...well, I guess also most of the totality of 5 Jews on this site. So, I decided to post source material.




Link Posted: 8/22/2005 8:25:26 AM EDT

I thought that the Torah is the same as the first five books of the OT. What is the difference?

Shok
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 8:28:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QShok:
I thought that the Torah is the same as the first five books of the OT. What is the difference?

Shok



_____________________________________________

Hi Shock--yes, you are correct. The Torah does contain the Five Books of Moses.

Ed
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 8:29:39 AM EDT
Why is it when Jews talk about Christ not being the Messiah, the Christians are
expected to listen carefully to the dissenting argument, but if a Christian
doesn't like hearing that Jews don't believe He was the Messiah, we're all Anti-Semites.......

Flame away, I'm to the point where I don't care anymore........
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 8:40:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:
Why is it when Jews talk about Christ not being the Messiah, the Christians are
expected to listen carefully to the dissenting argument, but if a Christian
doesn't like hearing that Jews don't believe He was the Messiah, we're all Anti-Semites.......

Flame away, I'm to the point where I don't care anymore........



___________________________________________________

No flames---none I believe were ever intended by myself or the handfull of Jews in this forum. As to our points of reference...all we are handed back is scripture.

In a previous post, I posited the idea of a scholastic approach to rote and emotional reponses to scripture by placing both christian and jewish texts within the historical or political timeframe as to elicit a scholastic response.

Jewish posters on this forum, compared to christians, is probably typical of the cross-section of America. Jews consitute ~ 3% of the population. Though, we get thoroughly trashed.

I've decided to refer my comments instead to texts and internet links.

Ed

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 8:42:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:
Why is it when Jews talk about Christ not being the Messiah, the Christians are
expected to listen carefully to the dissenting argument, but if a Christian
doesn't like hearing that Jews don't believe He was the Messiah, we're all Anti-Semites.......
Same reason athiests and pagans are expected to listen carefully to the christian viewpoint, but christians are not expcted to do the same in return.


Flame away, I'm to the point where I don't care anymore........
No flame, but I agree about being at the point I don't care anymore as well.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:06:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:
Why is it when Jews talk about Christ not being the Messiah, the Christians are
expected to listen carefully to the dissenting argument, but if a Christian
doesn't like hearing that Jews don't believe He was the Messiah, we're all Anti-Semites.......

Flame away, I'm to the point where I don't care anymore........




No flame, but on this board I haven't noticed Christians listening.
I wish they would. I tried to have discussions with several members of this board with extreme Christian ideals and every time I attempted to share my views I was slammed with Christian retoric.
I would welcome an even exchange.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:14:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:
Why is it when Jews talk about Christ not being the Messiah, the Christians are
expected to listen carefully to the dissenting argument, but if a Christian
doesn't like hearing that Jews don't believe He was the Messiah, we're all Anti-Semites.......

Flame away, I'm to the point where I don't care anymore........



___________________________________________________

No flames---none I believe were ever intended by myself or the handfull of Jews in this forum. As to our points of reference...all we are handed back is scripture.

In a previous post, I posited the idea of a scholastic approach to rote and emotional reponses to scripture by placing both christian and jewish texts within the historical or political timeframe as to elicit a scholastic response.

Jewish posters on this forum, compared to christians, is probably typical of the cross-section of America. Jews consitute ~ 3% of the population. Though, we get thoroughly trashed.

I've decided to refer my comments instead to texts and internet links.

Ed




________________________________

In truth, I don't believe any comments posted by ~5 Jews have ever requested that "...Christ not being the Messiah, the Christians are expected to listen carefully to the dissenting argument".

If you've cared to notice---we generally are flamed; not by intellectual arguments--rather by rote recitals of Christian texts. What has been proffered by Jews has more likely than not has been thte Jewish perspective...based upon our own literature and both Christian and Jewish Scholastic review of scriptural texts.

I can't speak for the 5 or so Jews who post on this site, though I don't appologize for the immense harm you have befallen based upon a minority opinion.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:16:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Twister:

Originally Posted By TexasSIG:
Why is it when Jews talk about Christ not being the Messiah, the Christians are
expected to listen carefully to the dissenting argument, but if a Christian
doesn't like hearing that Jews don't believe He was the Messiah, we're all Anti-Semites.......

Flame away, I'm to the point where I don't care anymore........




No flame, but on this board I haven't noticed Christians listening.
I wish they would. I tried to have discussions with several members of this board with extreme Christian ideals and every time I attempted to share my views I was slammed with Christian retoric.
I would welcome an even exchange.



______________________________

You go, dude!

B'Shalom to yourself and our co-religionists!!

Ed
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 9:39:02 AM EDT
scuba _ed:

I tried sending you an IM, but it appears you're not accepting them.....if you change that, drop me an IM and I'll send you what I was going to send before.

FOTBR
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 11:22:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By QShok:
I thought that the Torah is the same as the first five books of the OT. What is the difference?

Shok



_____________________________________________

Hi Shock--yes, you are correct. The Torah does contain the Five Books of Moses.

Ed




What about the book of Isaiah? Is that Jewish scripture also?

Shok
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 11:34:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QShok:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By QShok:
I thought that the Torah is the same as the first five books of the OT. What is the difference?

Shok



_____________________________________________

Hi Shock--yes, you are correct. The Torah does contain the Five Books of Moses.

Ed




What about the book of Isaiah? Is that Jewish scripture also?

Shok



_______________________

Isaiah is included in the Torah.



Link Posted: 8/22/2005 11:39:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FanoftheBlackRifle:
scuba _ed:

I tried sending you an IM, but it appears you're not accepting them.....if you change that, drop me an IM and I'll send you what I was going to send before.

FOTBR


____________________________

I stopped accepting IM's when the Moderator reamed me for espousing and editing my religious posts...

Ed
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 12:02:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:


Salvation through the death of jesus, as preached by the disiples of jesus to their fellow Jews was the christian gospel tenet as the forgiveness of sins. This is hardly conceivable.

Only the gentile world would have needed a gospel of forgiveness. Jews already knew about divine readiness to forgive the repentant, irregardless of sacrifice.



So the sacrifices were unnecessary? Or could it be that with the absence of the temple, some have forgotten the significance of the sacrifice?



source:CHRISTIAN ANITSEMITISM: A History of Hate, William Nicholls, 1995, pp. 114-115.


Well, that title sure makes it sound like the author didn't have an agenda.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 12:31:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Brohawk:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:


Salvation through the death of jesus, as preached by the disiples of jesus to their fellow Jews was the christian gospel tenet as the forgiveness of sins. This is hardly conceivable.

Only the gentile world would have needed a gospel of forgiveness. Jews already knew about divine readiness to forgive the repentant, irregardless of sacrifice.



So the sacrifices were unnecessary? Or could it be that with the absence of the temple, some have forgotten the significance of the sacrifice?



source:CHRISTIAN ANITSEMITISM: A History of Hate, William Nicholls, 1995, pp. 114-115.


Well, that title sure makes it sound like the author didn't have an agenda.




_______________________

My, my....a voice from the majority against one of the few (Jewish) posters on this forum. What an incredible trail you are cutting--just think...you're one of many sourcing multiple documents and, Oh, oh!!

When a Jew proferrs something that hurts your feelings you just whine.

Poor, poor, baby!

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 12:41:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By QShok:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By QShok:
I thought that the Torah is the same as the first five books of the OT. What is the difference?

Shok



_____________________________________________

Hi Shock--yes, you are correct. The Torah does contain the Five Books of Moses.

Ed




What about the book of Isaiah? Is that Jewish scripture also?

Shok



_______________________

Isaiah is included in the Torah.







Does the Torah say the same thing in Isaiah 7:14?

    Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.


And doesn't "Immanuel" mean God with us?

Shok
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 12:51:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 12:51:47 PM EDT by scuba_ed]

Originally Posted By QShok:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By QShok:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By QShok:
I thought that the Torah is the same as the first five books of the OT. What is the difference?

Shok



_____________________________________________

Hi Shock--yes, you are correct. The Torah does contain the Five Books of Moses.

Ed




What about the book of Isaiah? Is that Jewish scripture also?

Shok



_______________________

Isaiah is included in the Torah.







Does the Torah say the same thing in Isaiah 7:14?

    Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.


And doesn't "Immanuel" mean God with us?

Shok



_______________

The septuagant, a greek mistranslatioin of the Hebrew original is referred to by Christians as the proof text for the virgin birth of Jesus.

"A virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Immanuel"

Here, the Hebrew simply says a young woman, without any reference to a virgin, and the context makes it clear that the regerence is to the prophets own time.

Such texts could only be supposed to refer to Jesus by wrenching them out of context or reading them against the intention of the original writer.

Source1: You don't want to hear this again.

Source2: You probably wouldn't care otherwise.

Ed
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:16:08 PM EDT

The septuagant, a greek mistranslatioin of the Hebrew original is referred to by Christians as the proof text for the virgin birth of Jesus.

"A virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Immanuel"

Here, the Hebrew simply says a young woman, without any reference to a virgin, and the context makes it clear that the regerence is to the prophets own time.

Such texts could only be supposed to refer to Jesus by wrenching them out of context or reading them against the intention of the original writer.



S-ed - Could you send me a source for this. I have not heard this before and would like more info.

Thanks
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 1:16:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 1:18:17 PM EDT by criley]

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

The septuagant, a greek mistranslatioin of the Hebrew original is referred to by Christians as the proof text for the virgin birth of Jesus.

"A virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Immanuel"

Here, the Hebrew simply says a young woman, without any reference to a virgin, and the context makes it clear that the regerence is to the prophets own time.

Such texts could only be supposed to refer to Jesus by wrenching them out of context or reading them against the intention of the original writer.

Source1: You don't want to hear this again.

Source2: You probably wouldn't care otherwise.

Ed



Is 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

First of all, there is no evidence that the Septuagint even exists. It is highly doubtful that it DID exist. And if it did exist, the Jews that did the translation would certainly have not been God fearing. Why would Jews, who were to remain separate from the Gentiles, do such a thing?

Secondly, the King James Bible is not a translation of the supposed Septuagint.

Finally, note the passage... The Lord himself SHALL GIVE YOU A SIGN....

It is hardly a sign if a YOUNG WOMAN CONCEIVES, now is it?

On the other hand, the word of God proclaims that a VIRGIN SHALL CONCEIVE.

Now THAT IS A SIGN.

Is 9:
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Is 53:
1 ¶ Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The Old Testament makes PERFECTLY CLEAR that GOD HIMSELF would dwell in a body and that HE WOULD SUFFER AND DIE FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD.

And that was the Lord Jesus Christ.

And when Jesus spoke 2000 years ago, while he walked on this earth, he pointed to the SCRIPTURES and said:

Joh 5:
31 ¶ If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than [that] of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.


Many Jews would not come to Jesus 2000 years ago so that they might have life.

It is certainly no surprise that is still happening today. Truly saddening, but no surprise.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 2:11:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 2:40:24 PM EDT by 0ldGuy]

Originally Posted By criley:
[
.

Is 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Correction.

Isaiah7;1 Therefore, my Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the maiden will become pregnant and bear a son,and she will name him Immanuel. [15] he will eat cream and honey as soon as he knows how to abhor evil and choose good. [16]For BEFORE the child will know to abhor evil and choose good,the land of the two kings you fear will be abandoned.

This is about Hezekiah, King Ahaz's coming son. Isaiah is telling him that BEFORE little Hezekiah knows right from wrong the two kings he fears, Rezin and Pekah, their land will be laid waste.

It never ceases to amaze me how Christians love to pull lines out of context.



Finally, note the passage... The Lord himself SHALL GIVE YOU A SIGN....

It is hardly a sign if a YOUNG WOMAN CONCEIVES, now is it?

On the other hand, the word of God proclaims that a VIRGIN SHALL CONCEIVE.

Now THAT IS A SIGN.

Yes it is but not the one you think!


Is 9:
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Correction.

Isaiah 9:5 For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us, and the dominion shall rest on his shoulder;THE Wondorous Advisor, Mighty God, Eternal father, CALLED his name Sar Shalom [Prince of Peace]; upon the one with the greatness in dominion and the boundless peace that will prevail on the throne of David and on his kingdom, to establish it and sustain it through justice and righteousness,from now to eternity. The zealousness of Hashem, master of Legions, will accomplish this.

Hezekiah again.



Is 53:
1 ¶ Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Tired of typing put this pertains to the Nation of Israel, God's servants



The Old Testament makes PERFECTLY CLEAR that GOD HIMSELF would dwell in a body and that HE WOULD SUFFER AND DIE FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD.

NO, it does not



Many Jews would not come to Jesus 2000 years ago so that they might have life.

It is certainly no surprise that is still happening today. Truly saddening, but no surprise.




Look at the bright side, you get to keep him all to yourself!

ETA, The corrections I posted are from Hebrew, should your bible relay it differently I would find a better translation.

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:45:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 8:46:28 AM EDT by criley]

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

Originally Posted By criley:
[
.

Is 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Correction.

Isaiah7;1 Therefore, my Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the maiden will become pregnant and bear a son,and she will name him Immanuel. [15] he will eat cream and honey as soon as he knows how to abhor evil and choose good. [16]For BEFORE the child will know to abhor evil and choose good,the land of the two kings you fear will be abandoned.

This is about Hezekiah, King Ahaz's coming son. Isaiah is telling him that BEFORE little Hezekiah knows right from wrong the two kings he fears, Rezin and Pekah, their land will be laid waste.

It never ceases to amaze me how Christians love to pull lines out of context.



Finally, note the passage... The Lord himself SHALL GIVE YOU A SIGN....

It is hardly a sign if a YOUNG WOMAN CONCEIVES, now is it?

On the other hand, the word of God proclaims that a VIRGIN SHALL CONCEIVE.

Now THAT IS A SIGN.

Yes it is but not the one you think!


Is 9:
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Correction.

Isaiah 9:5 For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us, and the dominion shall rest on his shoulder;THE Wondorous Advisor, Mighty God, Eternal father, CALLED his name Sar Shalom [Prince of Peace]; upon the one with the greatness in dominion and the boundless peace that will prevail on the throne of David and on his kingdom, to establish it and sustain it through justice and righteousness,from now to eternity. The zealousness of Hashem, master of Legions, will accomplish this.

Hezekiah again.



Is 53:
1 ¶ Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, [there is] no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Tired of typing put this pertains to the Nation of Israel, God's servants



The Old Testament makes PERFECTLY CLEAR that GOD HIMSELF would dwell in a body and that HE WOULD SUFFER AND DIE FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD.

NO, it does not



Many Jews would not come to Jesus 2000 years ago so that they might have life.

It is certainly no surprise that is still happening today. Truly saddening, but no surprise.




Look at the bright side, you get to keep him all to yourself!

ETA, The corrections I posted are from Hebrew, should your bible relay it differently I would find a better translation.




When people reject the word of God they prove themselves to be fools.

A young women becoming pregnant is HARDLY a sign. It happens MILLIONS of times each day.

To say that a "young woman" who becomes pregnant is a "sign" is ridiculous on its face.

So Hezekiah was the Mighty God, eh?

So Hezekiah was the Eternal Father, eh?

And they called Hezekiah, Immanuel? Funny. The Bible doesn't say that. It says they called Hezekiah, well, Hezekiah. How about that.

And in case you didn't notice, Hezekiah, who WAS annointed king and accepted as king by the Jews, well, he didn't establish eternal peace, now did he?

And you say Isaiah 53 refers to the NATION of Israel? Israel could not suffer for anyone's sins. THEY HAD TOO MANY OF THEIR OWN. What utter nonsense to say the nation of Israel even COULD atone for sins. What arrogance! And if you say Isaiah 53 refers to the NATION of Israel, why then you have the nation of Israel REJECTING ITSELF.

And you talk about context. What a joke.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:25:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 10:54:47 AM EDT by Twister]
And they called Hezekiah, Immanuel? Funny. The Bible doesn't say that. It says they called Hezekiah, well, Hezekiah. How about that.

And they called Jesus, Immanuel? Funny. The Bible doesn't say that. It says they called Jesus, well,
Jesus. How about that?
Now they named my Great-grandfather Immanuel. Does that make him the Messiah? I think not.
Note: the ending yahu on many biblical names also means "of G-d", (example Yirmayahu or in your book Jeremiah) and none of them were Messiah either.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:35:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 10:36:27 AM EDT by PBIR]
Don't want to get flamed? Stop doing this sort of crap:


Originally posted by Oldguy

No, I do not think our soldiers are committing suicide. Soldiering is a noble profession.

In my opinion { hold on to your socks} Jesus was a flake who committed suicide.

You have a Christian perspective and I a Jewish one, the two will never meet as far as I am concerned.



And then you have the gall to act offended when you are rebuked. Go figure. That is not an isolated incident, a little time spent browsing the religion forum would reveal many more by a few of the various Jewish representatives. Are all Jews so tactless or is it simply the arfcom ones? Just because you are a minority religion does not give you the right to be caustic towards others beliefs. If you want to avoid flames take a good hard look at your methodology. If you're going to be insulting, expect to get what you deserve. Show some common respect and you might get the discourse you claim to desire.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:39:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By criley:




When people reject the word of God they prove themselves to be fools.

A young women becoming pregnant is HARDLY a sign. It happens MILLIONS of times each day.

To say that a "young woman" who becomes pregnant is a "sign" is ridiculous on its face.

So Hezekiah was the Mighty God, eh?

So Hezekiah was the Eternal Father, eh?

And they called Hezekiah, Immanuel? Funny. The Bible doesn't say that. It says they called Hezekiah, well, Hezekiah. How about that.

And in case you didn't notice, Hezekiah, who WAS annointed king and accepted as king by the Jews, well, he didn't establish eternal peace, now did he?

And you say Isaiah 53 refers to the NATION of Israel? Israel could not suffer for anyone's sins. THEY HAD TOO MANY OF THEIR OWN. What utter nonsense to say the nation of Israel even COULD atone for sins. What arrogance! And if you say Isaiah 53 refers to the NATION of Israel, why then you have the nation of Israel REJECTING ITSELF.

And you talk about context. What a joke.

Go back and read what I posted again, pay close attention to the words in bold print.

It would also be a good idea to take your "Jesus Goggles" off so you can see more clearly.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't that Jesus guy caution you about calling people fools
.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:57:13 AM EDT
Are all Jews so tactless or is it simply the arfcom ones? Just because you are a minority religion does not give you the right to be caustic towards others beliefs.



Another incident of the Christian pot calling the Jewish kettle black.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:58:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 10:59:50 AM EDT by PBIR]

Originally Posted By Twister:


Another incident of the Christian pot calling the Jewish kettle black.



Please oh please show me where I have directly insulted Jewish religion. I'm waiting.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:01:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By Twister:


Another incident of the Christian pot calling the Jewish kettle black.



Please oh please show me where I have directly insulted Jewish religion. I'm waiting.




Try reading your post.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:02:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Twister:

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By Twister:


Another incident of the Christian pot calling the Jewish kettle black.



Please oh please show me where I have directly insulted Jewish religion. I'm waiting.




Try reading your post.



Nice try but not even close.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:07:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PBIR:
Don't want to get flamed? Stop doing this sort of crap
And then you have the gall to act offended when you are rebuked. Go figure. That is not an isolated incident, a little time spent browsing the religion forum would reveal many more by a few of the various Jewish representatives. Are all Jews so tactless or is it simply the arfcom ones? Just because you are a minority religion does not give you the right to be caustic towards others beliefs. If you want to avoid flames take a good hard look at your methodology. If you're going to be insulting, expect to get what you deserve. Show some common respect and you might get the discourse you claim to desire.



Flame away, I can take it!

Rebuked by whom?

I ask no quarter from anyone, minority be damned.

I replied to Joyce in an honest and forth right manner, she did after all raise the question.

Get what I deserve? What getting called a Moron by the likes of you?




Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:09:12 AM EDT
Can't we learn and grow from differences, rather than .....well, I will defend to the death that each of us has a right to our own beliefs, as Americans. And as a Jew. Be thankful that we have a forum like this to learn and communicate, and I amagine as we learn...the more alike we truely are.


"We despise all reverences and all the objects of reverence which are outside the pale of our own list of sacred things. And yet, with strange inconsistency, we are shocked when other people despise and defile the things which are holy to us."
Mark Twain....hippie.gif
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:13:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 11:13:58 AM EDT by PBIR]

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

Originally Posted By PBIR:
Don't want to get flamed? Stop doing this sort of crap
And then you have the gall to act offended when you are rebuked. Go figure. That is not an isolated incident, a little time spent browsing the religion forum would reveal many more by a few of the various Jewish representatives. Are all Jews so tactless or is it simply the arfcom ones? Just because you are a minority religion does not give you the right to be caustic towards others beliefs. If you want to avoid flames take a good hard look at your methodology. If you're going to be insulting, expect to get what you deserve. Show some common respect and you might get the discourse you claim to desire.



Flame away, I can take it!

Rebuked by whom?

I ask no quarter from anyone, minority be damned.

I replied to Joyce in an honest and forth right manner, she did after all raise the question.

Get what I deserve? What getting called a Moron by the likes of you?







Exactly as I thought, you visit the religion forum to troll and nothing more. Thank you for showing your true colors, it will save me the time from having to consider anything you and your cohorts type as being worth a grain of salt. I will be sure to pass the word.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:26:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SilentRun:
Can't we learn and grow from differences, rather than .....well, I will defend to the death that each of us has a right to our own beliefs, as Americans. And as a Jew. Be thankful that we have a forum like this to learn and communicate, and I amagine as we learn...the more alike we truely are.


"We despise all reverences and all the objects of reverence which are outside the pale of our own list of sacred things. And yet, with strange inconsistency, we are shocked when other people despise and defile the things which are holy to us."
Mark Twain....



_______________________

Nicely said.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:28:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 11:29:11 AM EDT by PBIR]

Originally Posted By SilentRun:
Can't we learn and grow from differences, rather than .....well, I will defend to the death that each of us has a right to our own beliefs, as Americans. And as a Jew. Be thankful that we have a forum like this to learn and communicate, and I amagine as we learn...the more alike we truely are.


"We despise all reverences and all the objects of reverence which are outside the pale of our own list of sacred things. And yet, with strange inconsistency, we are shocked when other people despise and defile the things which are holy to us."
Mark Twain....



I despise no one else's faith, but I surely do despise those who attack or belittle mine.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:33:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 11:34:31 AM EDT by scuba_ed]

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

Originally Posted By PBIR:
Don't want to get flamed? Stop doing this sort of crap
And then you have the gall to act offended when you are rebuked. Go figure. That is not an isolated incident, a little time spent browsing the religion forum would reveal many more by a few of the various Jewish representatives. Are all Jews so tactless or is it simply the arfcom ones? Just because you are a minority religion does not give you the right to be caustic towards others beliefs. If you want to avoid flames take a good hard look at your methodology. If you're going to be insulting, expect to get what you deserve. Show some common respect and you might get the discourse you claim to desire.



Flame away, I can take it!

Rebuked by whom?

I ask no quarter from anyone, minority be damned.

I replied to Joyce in an honest and forth right manner, she did after all raise the question.

Get what I deserve? What getting called a Moron by the likes of you?







Exactly as I thought, you visit the religion forum to troll and nothing more. Thank you for showing your true colors, it will save me the time from having to consider anything you and your cohorts type as being worth a grain of salt. I will be sure to pass the word.



_____________________________________

"you visit the religion forum to troll and nothing more"

--- Actually, OldGuy has done nothing other than post Jewish viewpoints and beliefs. Those who argue are the trolls, such as you, sir. Were you simply to approach the topic in a scholarly fashion, then you may come to appreciate the Jewish perspective--not like it, but understand it.

"and your cohorts type as being worth a grain of salt"

--- Now that is uncalled for and totally outrageous. If there were a Moderator in this forum worth his "salt" he would have called you out. You are a troll, sir.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:41:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By PBIR:

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

Originally Posted By PBIR:
Don't want to get flamed? Stop doing this sort of crap
And then you have the gall to act offended when you are rebuked. Go figure. That is not an isolated incident, a little time spent browsing the religion forum would reveal many more by a few of the various Jewish representatives. Are all Jews so tactless or is it simply the arfcom ones? Just because you are a minority religion does not give you the right to be caustic towards others beliefs. If you want to avoid flames take a good hard look at your methodology. If you're going to be insulting, expect to get what you deserve. Show some common respect and you might get the discourse you claim to desire.



Flame away, I can take it!

Rebuked by whom?

I ask no quarter from anyone, minority be damned.

I replied to Joyce in an honest and forth right manner, she did after all raise the question.

Get what I deserve? What getting called a Moron by the likes of you?







Exactly as I thought, you visit the religion forum to troll and nothing more. Thank you for showing your true colors, it will save me the time from having to consider anything you and your cohorts type as being worth a grain of salt. I will be sure to pass the word.



_____________________________________

"you visit the religion forum to troll and nothing more"

--- Actually, OldGuy has done nothing other than post Jewish viewpoints and beliefs. Those who argue are the trolls, such as you, sir. Were you simply to approach the topic in a scholarly fashion, then you may come to appreciate the Jewish perspective--not like it, but understand it.

"and your cohorts type as being worth a grain of salt"

--- Now that is uncalled for and totally outrageous. If there were a Moderator in this forum worth his "salt" he would have called you out. You are a troll, sir.



+1 eloguently expressed Ed.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:39:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:59:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Twister:
And they called Hezekiah, Immanuel? Funny. The Bible doesn't say that. It says they called Hezekiah, well, Hezekiah. How about that.

And they called Jesus, Immanuel? Funny. The Bible doesn't say that. It says they called Jesus, well,
Jesus. How about that?
Now they named my Great-grandfather Immanuel. Does that make him the Messiah? I think not.
Note: the ending yahu on many biblical names also means "of G-d", (example Yirmayahu or in your book Jeremiah) and none of them were Messiah either.



Well, to know what the Bible says you actually have to READ IT.

Jesus Christ was called God, did the works that only God could do, and was worshipped as God.l

Mt 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Mt 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Mt 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Mt 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Mt 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Mt 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Mt 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Mt 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Mr 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

Lu 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

Joh 9:

26 Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?
27 He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear [it] again? will ye also be his disciples?
28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
29 We know that God spake unto Moses: [as for] this [fellow], we know not from whence he is.
30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and [yet] he hath opened mine eyes.
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
35 ¶ Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
39 ¶ And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40 And [some] of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 1:03:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:
Look at the bright side, you get to keep him all to yourself!




What an arrogant, ridiculous statement.

I do not "keep him all to myself."

On the contrary, YOU REJECT HIM.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 1:07:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 1:09:36 PM EDT by Twister]

Originally Posted By criley:

Originally Posted By Twister:
And they called Hezekiah, Immanuel? Funny. The Bible doesn't say that. It says they called Hezekiah, well, Hezekiah. How about that.

And they called Jesus, Immanuel? Funny. The Bible doesn't say that. It says they called Jesus, well,
Jesus. How about that?
Now they named my Great-grandfather Immanuel. Does that make him the Messiah? I think not.
Note: the ending yahu on many biblical names also means "of G-d", (example Yirmayahu or in your book Jeremiah) and none of them were Messiah either.



Well, to know what the Bible says you actually have to READ IT.


Irrelavant, since you cannot know what I've read.


Jesus Christ was called God, did the works that only God could do, and was worshipped as God.l


Making erroneous bible quotes to elicit a negative response. (trolling)


Mt 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Mt 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Mt 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Mt 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Mt 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Mt 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Mt 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Mt 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Mr 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

Lu 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

Joh 9:

26 Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?
27 He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear [it] again? will ye also be his disciples?
28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
29 We know that God spake unto Moses: [as for] this [fellow], we know not from whence he is.
30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and [yet] he hath opened mine eyes.
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
35 ¶ Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
39 ¶ And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40 And [some] of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.




Obviously, a person whom one cannot discuss with rationally. Goodbye
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 1:14:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By criley:

Originally Posted By Twister:
And they called Hezekiah, Immanuel? Funny. The Bible doesn't say that. It says they called Hezekiah, well, Hezekiah. How about that.

And they called Jesus, Immanuel? Funny. The Bible doesn't say that. It says they called Jesus, well,
Jesus. How about that?
Now they named my Great-grandfather Immanuel. Does that make him the Messiah? I think not.
Note: the ending yahu on many biblical names also means "of G-d", (example Yirmayahu or in your book Jeremiah) and none of them were Messiah either.



Well, to know what the Bible says you actually have to READ IT.

Jesus Christ was called God, did the works that only God could do, and was worshipped as God.l

Mt 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Mt 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Mt 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Mt 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Mt 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Mt 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Mt 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Mt 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Mr 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

Lu 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

Joh 9:

26 Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?
27 He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear [it] again? will ye also be his disciples?
28 Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
29 We know that God spake unto Moses: [as for] this [fellow], we know not from whence he is.
30 The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and [yet] he hath opened mine eyes.
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
32 Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33 If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
35 ¶ Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
39 ¶ And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40 And [some] of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.



________________________

The septuagant is a greek mistranslatioin of the Hebrew original and is oten referred to by Christians as the proof text for the virgin birth of Jesus.

Jewish and scholarly view and review of the texts. That said, why not approach the topic of religious differences from other than a rote fall-back to text?

You belive in yours, I believe in mine; I wouldn't expect a change. That's fine! And your contribution is...what?

Okay, I've said it before and will say again; the best and most interesting aspect of this forum lies not in defensive "fall-back" perspectives, but in critical understanding of both the Hebrew Bible and the Christian Bible--what are the socio-political aspects that these writings deal with?

Beliefs won't change, though critical study is an interesting topic.

In fact, such critical (oh...critical doen't mean or refer to the blood-letting that has been the norm here...it actually refers to review and understanding--Really!) viewpoints can be quite educational and...can be totally non-threateing for the scholars amongst this froum.

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 1:40:37 PM EDT
I just want to know if Jews belief in the "quote" button.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 1:45:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 1:49:53 PM EDT by PBIR]

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

"you visit the religion forum to troll and nothing more"

--- Actually, OldGuy has done nothing other than post Jewish viewpoints and beliefs. Those who argue are the trolls, such as you, sir. Were you simply to approach the topic in a scholarly fashion, then you may come to appreciate the Jewish perspective--not like it, but understand it.

Actually, OldGuy has repeatedly insulted Christianity as my first post in this thread clearly shows. That behavior in no way contributes anything to any discussion and should be banned before he winds up costing those of us that are serious about religion the opportunity of having this forum. If you cannot discuss religion without insulting others beliefs you should not be doing it here. He is trolling and if you support him... well we all know one is judged by the company one keeps.


"and your cohorts type as being worth a grain of salt"

--- Now that is uncalled for and totally outrageous. If there were a Moderator in this forum worth his "salt" he would have called you out. You are a troll, sir.

Not at all. By cohorts I mean fellow trolls and that would is quiet obvious. If you are outraged by it I must believe that it is because the comment struck home. - Oh, and your statement is truly the pot calling the kettle black Ed. You are well known in the IM world here at arfcom for trolling Christianity and then running out to cry in another thread when you get a taste of your medicine.


Link Posted: 8/23/2005 1:46:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
I just want to know if Jews belief in the "quote" button.hinking.gif



h.gifI love "pushing buttons"!!!!! It's all part of the Jewish experience!!!!
Ask my wife, as she is always pushing my buttons too....
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 1:55:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By criley:

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:
Look at the bright side, you get to keep him all to yourself!




What an arrogant, ridiculous statement.

I do not "keep him all to myself."

On the contrary, YOU REJECT HIM.



You are 100% correct, I reject him. Jews did not accept him then and do not accept him now.

You said this saddens you but does not surprise you, so be it.

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 2:51:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

The septuagant is a greek mistranslatioin of the Hebrew original and is oten referred to by Christians as the proof text for the virgin birth of Jesus.

Jewish and scholarly view and review of the texts. That said, why not approach the topic of religious differences from other than a rote fall-back to text?





I have no proof, but i find it hard to believe that Christian scholars know they have a mistranslation of the old Testament. certainly there are some Christians that speak Hebrew.

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 4:35:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

I replied to Joyce in an honest and forth right manner, she did after all raise the question.





Uh huh.....I saw that.

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 8:04:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sgtar15:

Originally Posted By 0ldGuy:

I replied to Joyce in an honest and forth right manner, she did after all raise the question.





Uh huh.....I saw that.

Sgtar15



Sarge, again, I just do not know what to say.

I apologized for the flake comment but will stick to my beliefs on the rest.

<­BR>



Link Posted: 8/24/2005 11:36:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 11:38:14 AM EDT by scuba_ed]

Originally Posted By walttx:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

The septuagant is a greek mistranslatioin of the Hebrew original and is oten referred to by Christians as the proof text for the virgin birth of Jesus.

Jewish and scholarly view and review of the texts. That said, why not approach the topic of religious differences from other than a rote fall-back to text?





I have no proof, but i find it hard to believe that Christian scholars know they have a mistranslation of the old Testament. certainly there are some Christians that speak Hebrew.




_______________________________________

True and I'm sure there are Christians who speak Hebrew. That said, what has come down through Christianity is a mistranslated text of the Hebrew original, also incorporating dogmatic ideas that were completely foreign to Judaism.

As these texts of what would become the Christian bible were written and assembled into new scriptural cannon, the Christian church had clearly and distinctly separated it from the Jewish forebear—becoming a distinct religion with its own scripture.

The addition of the New Testament changed this new version of the bible into the Christian Old Testament. The Greek bible had already been so transformed by the way Christians were so reading it that it had become a virtually different book. It was important to Christianity to incorporate some form of Jewish scripture so as to affirm Christianity’s roots in Judaism.

Historically, this was important for several reasons. The first being that the new religion of Christianity, despite it’s initial following of a small number of Jews was not going to turn the tide of the majority of the Jewish people. What was the early church to do?

That was to appeal to non-believers, or pagans, if you will, which suffused the Roman Empire. Though pagans throughout the Empire had similar birth-death-resurrection themes (as in the religion of Mithras, which was popular amongst the Roman armies from Palestine to modern England), a new religion had best have one important criteria for it—that criteria was longevity, or how long that religion had existed.

With the tradition of the Hebrew bible, in a Christian form, the early Church had this, and more. It claimed the 3000 years of the adulterated Hebrew bible as its birthright.

sources for above material available upon request.
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 6:02:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

Originally Posted By walttx:

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

The septuagant is a greek mistranslatioin of the Hebrew original and is oten referred to by Christians as the proof text for the virgin birth of Jesus.

Jewish and scholarly view and review of the texts. That said, why not approach the topic of religious differences from other than a rote fall-back to text?





I have no proof, but i find it hard to believe that Christian scholars know they have a mistranslation of the old Testament. certainly there are some Christians that speak Hebrew.




_______________________________________

True and I'm sure there are Christians who speak Hebrew. That said, what has come down through Christianity is a mistranslated text of the Hebrew original, also incorporating dogmatic ideas that were completely foreign to Judaism.

As these texts of what would become the Christian bible were written and assembled into new scriptural cannon, the Christian church had clearly and distinctly separated it from the Jewish forebear—becoming a distinct religion with its own scripture.

The addition of the New Testament changed this new version of the bible into the Christian Old Testament. The Greek bible had already been so transformed by the way Christians were so reading it that it had become a virtually different book. It was important to Christianity to incorporate some form of Jewish scripture so as to affirm Christianity’s roots in Judaism.

Historically, this was important for several reasons. The first being that the new religion of Christianity, despite it’s initial following of a small number of Jews was not going to turn the tide of the majority of the Jewish people. What was the early church to do?

That was to appeal to non-believers, or pagans, if you will, which suffused the Roman Empire. Though pagans throughout the Empire had similar birth-death-resurrection themes (as in the religion of Mithras, which was popular amongst the Roman armies from Palestine to modern England), a new religion had best have one important criteria for it—that criteria was longevity, or how long that religion had existed.

With the tradition of the Hebrew bible, in a Christian form, the early Church had this, and more. It claimed the 3000 years of the adulterated Hebrew bible as its birthright.

sources for above material available upon request.



Send me some source material, this is interesting.
thanks
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 7:19:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/24/2005 7:20:56 PM EDT by yellow5]

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:

True and I'm sure there are Christians who speak Hebrew. That said, what has come down through Christianity is a mistranslated text of the Hebrew original, also incorporating dogmatic ideas that were completely foreign to Judaism.

As these texts of what would become the Christian bible were written and assembled into new scriptural cannon, the Christian church had clearly and distinctly separated it from the Jewish forebear—becoming a distinct religion with its own scripture.

The addition of the New Testament changed this new version of the bible into the Christian Old Testament. The Greek bible had already been so transformed by the way Christians were so reading it that it had become a virtually different book. It was important to Christianity to incorporate some form of Jewish scripture so as to affirm Christianity’s roots in Judaism.

Historically, this was important for several reasons. The first being that the new religion of Christianity, despite it’s initial following of a small number of Jews was not going to turn the tide of the majority of the Jewish people. What was the early church to do?

That was to appeal to non-believers, or pagans, if you will, which suffused the Roman Empire. Though pagans throughout the Empire had similar birth-death-resurrection themes (as in the religion of Mithras, which was popular amongst the Roman armies from Palestine to modern England), a new religion had best have one important criteria for it—that criteria was longevity, or how long that religion had existed.

With the tradition of the Hebrew bible, in a Christian form, the early Church had this, and more. It claimed the 3000 years of the adulterated Hebrew bible as its birthright.

sources for above material available upon request.



*applauds* I wish everyone would study ancient near/middle eastern religions.

ETA: speaking of such, I wonder whatever happened to Tactical_Jew ?
Link Posted: 8/24/2005 10:18:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By scuba_ed:


True and I'm sure there are Christians who speak Hebrew. That said, what has come down through Christianity is a mistranslated text of the Hebrew original, also incorporating dogmatic ideas that were completely foreign to Judaism.

As these texts of what would become the Christian bible were written and assembled into new scriptural cannon, the Christian church had clearly and distinctly separated it from the Jewish forebear—becoming a distinct religion with its own scripture.

The addition of the New Testament changed this new version of the bible into the Christian Old Testament. The Greek bible had already been so transformed by the way Christians were so reading it that it had become a virtually different book. It was important to Christianity to incorporate some form of Jewish scripture so as to affirm Christianity’s roots in Judaism.

Historically, this was important for several reasons. The first being that the new religion of Christianity, despite it’s initial following of a small number of Jews was not going to turn the tide of the majority of the Jewish people. What was the early church to do?

That was to appeal to non-believers, or pagans, if you will, which suffused the Roman Empire. Though pagans throughout the Empire had similar birth-death-resurrection themes (as in the religion of Mithras, which was popular amongst the Roman armies from Palestine to modern England), a new religion had best have one important criteria for it—that criteria was longevity, or how long that religion had existed.

With the tradition of the Hebrew bible, in a Christian form, the early Church had this, and more. It claimed the 3000 years of the adulterated Hebrew bible as its birthright.

sources for above material available upon request.



Yasher koach! Leshana HaBa'ah BeYerushalayim.

Signed

A frumie who checks in from time to time.
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