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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/20/2005 3:03:13 PM EDT
Digging for the Truth: Hunt for the Lost Ark is on at 8pm

For centuries, adventurers, and archaeologists--the devout and determined, and even Indiana Jones--have all searched for the Bible's most sacred lost treasure: the Ark of the Covenant. Yet, despite all its fame, it mysteriously disappeared from the pages of history tens of centuries ago. How could something so powerful and holy simply vanish? That's what host and adventurer Josh Bernstein is determined to find out when he follows a trail that starts where the Ark's story begins--on Mount Sinai. Next, he explores a secret maze beneath Jerusalem's streets and visits Deir es Sultan, an Ethiopian monastery located on the roof of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. In Ethiopia, he climbs up a sheer cliff to reach Debre Damo, one of the country's most ancient monasteries, and travels across Lake Tana to the place where some say the Ark is kept today. But how close can he get to this mighty and mysterious treasure

Might be worth watching

Link Posted: 8/20/2005 3:04:56 PM EDT
Man, I might have to dvr that own, Im going out with gf and a couple of friends. Thanks for the heads up
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:07:02 AM EDT
There I TWO treasures I would give up everything to be able to find:

#1 the Ark of the Covenant

#2 the Ark of Noah, were it to actually exist where it suppossedly does could be quite amusingly controversial.......
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:08:39 AM EDT

Seen it about a year ago. Its pretty good though.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:11:16 AM EDT
Oh, please!

Everyone knows the Ark is being kept locked away by a fearful U.S. Government. They've had it since 1939 or so!

Don't you people ever go to the movies?



Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:17:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
There I TWO treasures I would give up everything to be able to find:

#1 the Ark of the Covenant

#2 the Ark of Noah, were it to actually exist where it suppossedly does could be quite amusingly controversial.......



Both were eaten by the Flying Spaghetti Monster to prevent worshipping a false God.

Flying Spaghetti Monster



Have you been touched by His Noodly Appendage?

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:20:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Have you been touched by His Noodly Appendage?




I'm not interested unless he brings beer and a loaf of Italian bread.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:26:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 10:27:33 AM EDT by zeekh]

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
#2 the Ark of Noah, were it to actually exist where it suppossedly does could be quite amusingly controversial.......



Where does it "supposedly exist"
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:31:33 AM EDT
I saw that show a while ago. It's the usual BS show. A guy runs all over the middle east like he's trying to find it believing every person he encounters. Then in the end he "finds it" where it is in a building with some guy guarding it who is the only one ever allowed to see it. Sure, the ark is in there and they just don't want anyone to see it.

We are led to believe a poor Ethoipian church has the ark in a poor neighborhood, but they won't let anyone see it, ever. It could relieve the poverty and famine in their area by bringing hundreds of thousands of tourists and their tourist dollars just by allowing people to see it from behind bulletproof glass at a distance of 25 yards. But, no it must be kept in the crappy little building hidden forever.


Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:33:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 10:34:13 AM EDT by redleg13a]

Originally Posted By zeekh:

Where does it "supposedly exist"



It is supposed to be on or around Mt. Ararat in Turkey. I watched either a History Channel or Discovery channel show on it one time. They were talking about some guys who had seen it. However, no pictures exist. They also talked about a US intelligence satellite that picked up an "unusual"anomaly on the mountain. It's measurements coincided with the dimensions of the Ark. Also, some guy and his son or grandson or something supposedly boarded the ark.

I know it existed, but I don't know if it still exists. It'd be pretty cool to find it, though!

Oh yeah, some people versed in this matter think it has now broken in two because of movements in the ice.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:36:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gunman0:
I saw that show a while ago. It's the usual BS show. A guy runs all over the middle east like he's trying to find it believing every person he encounters. Then in the end he "finds it" where it is in a building with some guy guarding it who is the only one ever allowed to see it. Sure, the ark is in there and they just don't want anyone to see it.

We are led to believe a poor Ethoipian church has the ark in a poor neighborhood, but they won't let anyone see it, ever. It could relieve the poverty and famine in their area by bringing hundreds of thousands of tourists and their tourist dollars just by allowing people to see it from behind bulletproof glass at a distance of 25 yards. But, no it must be kept in the crappy little building hidden forever.





+.9bar.

It sucked. Hey, the Ark is being guarded by one jackass with a knife. Watch now as I toss on OC gernade in there ans claim the Ark for myself...

That would have made it more interesting.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:46:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By redleg13a:

Originally Posted By zeekh:

Where does it "supposedly exist"



It is supposed to be on or around Mt. Ararat in Turkey. I watched either a History Channel or Discovery channel show on it one time. They were talking about some guys who had seen it. However, no pictures exist. They also talked about a US intelligence satellite that picked up an "unusual"anomaly on the mountain. It's measurements coincided with the dimensions of the Ark. Also, some guy and his son or grandson or something supposedly boarded the ark.

I know it existed, but I don't know if it still exists. It'd be pretty cool to find it, though!

Oh yeah, some people versed in this matter think it has now broken in two because of movements in the ice.



This is the view of a well known apologetics site

www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v14/i4/report.asp

Its a natural geologic formation formed by mudflow.

Link Posted: 8/22/2005 10:54:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By redleg13a:
Originally Posted By zeekh:

Where does it "supposedly exist"



It is supposed to be on or around Mt. Ararat in Turkey.quote]

So why would that be "amusingly controversial" as Dersertmoon said?
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 11:02:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By zeekh:

Originally Posted By redleg13a:
Originally Posted By zeekh:

Where does it "supposedly exist"



It is supposed to be on or around Mt. Ararat in Turkey.quote]

So why would that be "amusingly controversial" as Dersertmoon said?



Probably because there are a lot of people who don't believe in it.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 11:35:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 11:36:56 AM EDT by gunman0]

Originally Posted By ctprelude:

Originally Posted By zeekh:

Originally Posted By redleg13a:
Originally Posted By zeekh:

Where does it "supposedly exist"



It is supposed to be on or around Mt. Ararat in Turkey.quote]

So why would that be "amusingly controversial" as Dersertmoon said?



Probably because there are a lot of people who don't believe in it.



Nothing even remotely convincing has been provided to show that it is anything other than a natural occurrence. They have to get past that point before they can even try to say its the biblical ark from Noah's time.

Where's the footage of finding things at the location other than mud and rocks?

They still don't have funding for an archaeological dig, yet they tour the world giving speeches and receiving donations and having television shows produced.



There are decent biblical history shows that show city ruins and debate evidence as to authenticity, but they don't have the same draw as the big "discoveries." So they'll make shows and print articles with no supporting evidence to get the viewers/readers. If it was a lesser discovery, like an unimportant long forgotten city from the bible, they'd have a much higher threshold for evidence before the would publish it.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 11:42:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gunman0:
I saw that show a while ago. It's the usual BS show. A guy runs all over the middle east like he's trying to find it believing every person he encounters. Then in the end he "finds it" where it is in a building with some guy guarding it who is the only one ever allowed to see it. Sure, the ark is in there and they just don't want anyone to see it.




Oh, THAT one.

Yeah. That was pretty lame, and I'm a believer.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 11:45:26 AM EDT
I beleive Noah's Ark once existed. I think it would be mostly unrecognizable now, though. Maybe fragments are still around. It would be like looking for a needle in a haystick, despite it's massive size though.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 11:51:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 11:53:02 AM EDT by GummyBear1]
Let me preface the following by saying that I believe both this ark and Noah's ark both exist in some form...

I thought the funniest part was when the guy doing the searching got special permission to have the head African cleric translate phrases from the "ancient secret scrolls" at the location they thought the ark was hidden...

The following is a loosely translated excerpt:

White guy: I can't read this language. Are there any notations in the scrolls that say where the ark is?

African priest (charged with protecting the ark) says to white guy: No...the scrolls say the ark was removed and taken somewhere...

African priest thinks to himself: If this dumb-ass whitey thinks I'm gonna tell him where the ark is, he's smokin crack.


Link Posted: 8/22/2005 12:06:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2005 12:28:53 PM EDT by WolfAR15]
as for Noah's ark I have no doubt that it existed but come on people. Its been like a few thousand years. wood decays over time and with all this time if there was anything left of the ark it would be very little.

Another thing to take into account is that after having been in this thing for so much time and then coming out on dry land, ravaged by flood would it not have been more practical for them to dismantle the ark and use it for building or other usefull purposes rather than just leaving it there?
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 12:32:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WolfAR15:
as for Noah's ark I have no doubt that it existed but come on people. Its been like a few thousand years. wood decays over time and with all this time if there was anything left of the ark it would be very little.

Another thing to take into account is that after having been in this thing for so much time and then coming out on dry land, ravaged by flood would it not have been more practical for them to dismantle the ark and use it for building or other usefull purposes rather than just leaving it there?



Well, now that I think about it, it is conceivable that parts of it could remain intact. After all, it was thoroughly caulked in pitch to begin with and its been sitting undisturbed in a cold, dry environment ever since.
Link Posted: 8/22/2005 3:33:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gunman0:
I saw that show a while ago. It's the usual BS show. A guy runs all over the middle east like he's trying to find it believing every person he encounters. Then in the end he "finds it" where it is in a building with some guy guarding it who is the only one ever allowed to see it. Sure, the ark is in there and they just don't want anyone to see it.

We are led to believe a poor Ethoipian church has the ark in a poor neighborhood, but they won't let anyone see it, ever. It could relieve the poverty and famine in their area by bringing hundreds of thousands of tourists and their tourist dollars just by allowing people to see it from behind bulletproof glass at a distance of 25 yards. But, no it must be kept in the crappy little building hidden forever.





Exactly. And the Noah's Ark show will be the same thing. He'll get the location from some goat herder's nephew's next-hut-neighbor and then try to go see it. When he gets there, the mountain will be "closed" for renovations and that will be the end of the show. The closing lines will be something like "We came so close, but we will never know if that big wooden ship over there is the Ark. Crickey."

G
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:45:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gunman0:

Originally Posted By ctprelude:

Originally Posted By zeekh:

Originally Posted By redleg13a:
Originally Posted By zeekh:

Where does it "supposedly exist"



It is supposed to be on or around Mt. Ararat in Turkey.quote]

So why would that be "amusingly controversial" as Dersertmoon said?



Probably because there are a lot of people who don't believe in it.



Nothing even remotely convincing has been provided to show that it is anything other than a natural occurrence. They have to get past that point before they can even try to say its the biblical ark from Noah's time.

Where's the footage of finding things at the location other than mud and rocks?

They still don't have funding for an archaeological dig, yet they tour the world giving speeches and receiving donations and having television shows produced.



There are decent biblical history shows that show city ruins and debate evidence as to authenticity, but they don't have the same draw as the big "discoveries." So they'll make shows and print articles with no supporting evidence to get the viewers/readers. If it was a lesser discovery, like an unimportant long forgotten city from the bible, they'd have a much higher threshold for evidence before the would publish it.



Your ArkHunter-fu is VERY strong!!!!

Biblical history and Biblical Artifacts are GREAT subjects for discussion but gunman0 has it exactly right....the "Ark" hunters are B.S.ers and Shysters of the highest order. Either there is or isn't an Ark ( either one ) still in existance but the efforts of these "diploma mill" historians are in pure VAIN...well, unless you count "raking in" invester dough under the auspices of "scientific research".

If either is to be found it will be by properly funded and PROPERLY managed expeditions that are controlled by people with AUTHENTIC interest in history, science, folklore, religion, etc. Not by Dr. Carl "Got my Diploma from the Back of Rolling Stone Magazine" Baugh or the likes. I would trust Stephen Hawking to find the Ark of the Covenant before any of these folks.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 6:54:55 AM EDT
Ark hunting can be hazardous to your health

Link Posted: 8/23/2005 8:49:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 9:36:22 AM EDT by mini14jac]
OK, the post started with a special about the Ark of the Covenant.
It's a long wooden box carried on poles, that (at one time) contained the stone tablets that Moses brought down from the mountain.
And yes, I thought the idea that this Ark is kept in a small building guarded by one man was a little odd, but who knows.

Now, Noah's Ark, (really big boat that carried a lot of animals) is a different matter.

If it were discovered, it would do serious damage to the "earth was created at random by a big bang" crowd.
If it is on top of a very high mountain that is always below freezing, it could possibly be in one or two pieces and petrified, and preserved.
(Remember the Ice Man? Several thousand year old man, found frozen with his bow, knife, etc.)

Turkey has designated a large formation as actually being the Ark of Noah.
It's not on top of a mountain, but is in a place where it could have slid down over the years.
They've actually built a visitor's center there.
It is in a very remote site, and the ark is mostly dirt now, but years ago National Geographic did a special on it.
It contains ancient iron bolts or spikes in several loactions.
It also shows the outline of "ribs" that would have existed in a large boat, and depending on which calculation you use, is oddly close to the size of the Biblical Ark.
And, it contains beams of petrified wood.
See this link for more info: www.noahsarksearch.com/durupinar.htm

Both are fascinating to me as a Christian.

Also, the possibility that the real Mt. Sinai is actually in Saudi Arabia, and is blackened on top, with other features that match the Bible description.
Link:www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_1.html

If you do some searching, all of these sites have their detractors, but it's still fascinating.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:30:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mini14jac:


Now, Noah's Ark, (really big boat that carried a lot of animals) is a different matter.

If it were discovered, it would do serious damage to the "earth was created at random by a big bang" crowd.



No it would not and scientists (big bang folks) don't think the Earth was created by the big bang, the Earth was created long after. And we know this for a fact.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 10:34:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 10:41:55 AM EDT by gunman0]

Originally Posted By mini14jac:
OK, the post started with a special about the Ark of the Covenant.
It's a long wooden box carried on poles, that (at one time) contained the stone tablets that Moses brought down from the mountain.
And yes, I thought the idea that this Ark is kept in a small building guarded by one man was a little odd, but who knows.


No, not odd, but complete BS. It has supposedly been kept in this building for generations. We all know many historians and biblical scholars have searched for the ark. As well as thieves and profiteers. The idea that one man has been guarding the ark for centuries and no man or army has come and taken is 100% unbelieveable. This is not a question of faith. I am an athiest, but think it is possible that an Ark from the time of moses carrying broken stone tablets could exist. We aren't talking about something which may be a saint's finger, we are talking about a major piece of history for two major religions, one guy would not be able to guard it and keep it away from the public.

The ark itself would not prove or disprove religuios faith, only prove that someone in the time of moses placed broken stone tablets in a box.



Now, Noah's Ark, (really big boat that carried a lot of animals) is a different matter.

If it were discovered, it would do serious damage to the "earth was created at random by a big bang" crowd.
If it is on top of a very high mountain that is always below freezing, it could possibly be in one or two pieces and petrified, and preserved.
(Remember the Ice Man? Several thousand year old man, found frozen with his bow, knife, etc.)

Turkey has designated a large formation as actually being the Ark of Noah.
It's not on top of a mountain, but is in a place where it could have slid down over the years.
They've actually built a visitor's center there.
It is in a very remote site, and the ark is mostly dirt now, but years ago National Geographic did a special on it.
It contains ancient iron bolts or spikes in several loactions.
It also shows the outline of "ribs" that would have existed in a large boat, and depending on which calculation you use, is oddly close to the size of the Biblical Ark.
And, it contains beams of petrified wood.
See this link for more info: www.noahsarksearch.com/durupinar.htm

Both are fascinating to me as a Christian.

Also, the possibility that the real Mt. Sinai is actually in Saudi Arabia, and is blackened on top, with other features that match the Bible description.
Link:www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_1.html

If you do some searching, all of these sites have their detractors, but it's still fascinating.



I don't know if you've seen stuff I haven't, but all of the pictures I've seen of "petrified wood" and iron spikes, bolts, and plates look like rocks to me. Yes some of the rocks have iron oxide content, this is common in the region for all rocks. Nothing looking like it was manufactured by humans has been found, unless you really stretch your imagination and squint real hard.

The only things man made were found in a nearby village with historic(read commercial) roots in the ark being there.

Mt. Sinai is something I believe exists. Don't think any communication with God occured there, but I believe that an actual mountain was called by that name somewhere in ancient times. I'm sure that will be discovered eventually beyond resonable doubts. More scrolls or engravings will be found in long forgotten and buried nomadic cities.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:07:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By mini14jac:


Now, Noah's Ark, (really big boat that carried a lot of animals) is a different matter.

If it were discovered, it would do serious damage to the "earth was created at random by a big bang" crowd.



No it would not and scientists (big bang folks) don't think the Earth was created by the big bang, the Earth was created long after. And we know this for a fact.




then perhaps you would like to go into detail about these facts that show that the earth was created through a series of accidental causes without the help of a higher power?


Or perhaps you only have a semblance of faith in your theory.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:10:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
There I TWO treasures I would give up everything to be able to find:

#1 the Ark of the Covenant

#2 the Ark of Noah, were it to actually exist where it suppossedly does could be quite amusingly controversial.......



Both were eaten by the Flying Spaghetti Monster to prevent worshipping a false God.

Flying Spaghetti Monster

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/80/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster.jpg

Have you been touched by His Noodly Appendage?





ok that created as a 'religion' to protest the decision to teach intelligent design alongside evolution in classrooms. wtf? Funny how they want the kids to only be taught their ideas and thoeries. Personally id rather the kids have access to both doctrines and be allowed to choose for themselves.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:29:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WolfAR15:
Personally id rather the kids have access to both doctrines and be allowed to choose for themselves.



Such heresy is forbidden in the enlightened world of academia.

Resistance is futile. Your children will be assimilated.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:44:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WolfAR15:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By mini14jac:


Now, Noah's Ark, (really big boat that carried a lot of animals) is a different matter.

If it were discovered, it would do serious damage to the "earth was created at random by a big bang" crowd.



No it would not and scientists (big bang folks) don't think the Earth was created by the big bang, the Earth was created long after. And we know this for a fact.




then perhaps you would like to go into detail about these facts that show that the earth was created through a series of accidental causes without the help of a higher power?


Or perhaps you only have a semblance of faith in your theory.




OK, once again. I stated the Earth was created AFTER the big bang. We KNOW this because the Universe is OLDER than the Earth itself.

I did NOT state I knew for a fact that God does not exist. As someone who subscribes to science I don't know, as someone who doesn't follow a religion I don't "pretend" to know.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:45:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2005 11:46:27 AM EDT by SteyrAUG]

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By WolfAR15:
Personally id rather the kids have access to both doctrines and be allowed to choose for themselves.



Such heresy is forbidden in the enlightened world of academia.

Resistance is futile. Your children will be assimilated.



Flying Spaghetti Monster guys. It isn't a joke. It's a real religion with the same validity as yours.

Please be respectful of the one true religion of Pastafarianism.

Can I get a Ramen?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:45:51 AM EDT
The Ark of the Covenant was built by inlaying gold over wood. The odds of it surviving even a fire are nill. Its probably gone.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:47:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Flying Spaghetti Monster guys. It isn't a joke. It's a real religion with the same validity as yours.

Please be respectful of the one true religion of Pastafarianism.





When pigs fly.

And no, 9/11 doesn't count.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:48:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GonzoAR15-1:
The Ark of the Covenant was built by inlaying gold over wood. The odds of it surviving even a fire are nill. Its probably gone.



You never know. Amazing how a desert can preserve things.

Can you imagine the consequences of actually FINDING that thing?

Wow.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:55:03 AM EDT
OK, say it's found, then what? Sure it'll make the news for a while, so? Does it have magical powers? It'll just end up in a warehouse somewhere while Catholics, Jews, Protestants all fight over it
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:56:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
OK, say it's found, then what? Sure it'll make the news for a while, so? Does it have magical powers? It'll just end up in a warehouse somewhere while Catholics, Jews, Protestants all fight over it



If it had powers then heaven only knows what would happen.

If I were Supreme Military Dictator of the Universe, I'd rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem and put it there.

Of course, that would probably trigger the Apocalypse, so land values in the area would suffer. Plan accordingly.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:58:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AssaultRifler:
OK, say it's found, then what? Sure it'll make the news for a while, so? Does it have magical powers? It'll just end up in a warehouse somewhere while Catholics, Jews, Protestants all fight over it



+1. It WAS the place where God had his presence on earth with the Jews in the Holy of Holies of the Temple.

Your body (if you are a christian) is the new temple of the Holy Ghost.

The Ark of the Covenant is just a pretty box now. If it hasn't turned to dust.


Oh, and Noah's Ark never rested on Sinai. It rested on Mount Ararat.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:59:16 AM EDT
Great. I click on this thread to discover the Lost Ark of the Covenant and instead I find out about the big bang, wood decay, and a flying pasta monster. After reading two pages of this I find I am left without emotion, except if you consider hunger an emotion. Which it isn't. Did I mention my sister-in-law has a bunny named Nestle?
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 11:59:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zaphod:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Flying Spaghetti Monster guys. It isn't a joke. It's a real religion with the same validity as yours.

Please be respectful of the one true religion of Pastafarianism.





When pigs fly.

And no, 9/11 doesn't count.



They mocked Christianity when it first came out too.

You have been shown the way of FSM but have chosen to close your eyes and stop up your ears.

Fortunately FSM still loves you. He was cooked for your sins.

Ramen.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:00:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cheesebeast:
Great. I click on this thread to discover the Lost Ark of the Covenant and instead I find out about the big bang, wood decay, and a flying pasta monster. After reading two pages of this I find I am left without emotion, except if you consider hunger an emotion. Which it isn't. Did I mention my sister-in-law has a bunny named Nestle?



You have been touched by His Noodly Appendage.
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:02:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:


The Ark of the Covenant is just a pretty box now. If it hasn't turned to dust.




and the Garden of Eden turned into Bagdhad
Link Posted: 8/23/2005 12:21:21 PM EDT
I have indeed been touched by the noodly appendage.

I would be careful what you begin, however. Mr. Jones didn't envision ending it all with a package of Kool Aid (a special shout out to the fine folks at Kraft Foods, who make Kool Aid, incidentally). The Waco crew didn't envision it all ending in a church barbeque, either.

There, that is better. I added Jim Jones AND WACO to this thread. On purpose.

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