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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 5/23/2001 2:50:00 AM EDT
In a historical context, who is more deserving of Israel, the Palestinians or the Israelis and why? Let's look at this academically and not emotionally OK? [[:)]
Link Posted: 5/23/2001 5:47:14 AM EDT
No one deserves any land. You get to keep what you can keep by force. So many ethnic subgroups have "owned" Israel (primitive Caananite tribes,Jews, Egyptians, Assyrians,Babylonians, Persians,Macedonian Greeks, Romans, Ottomans,various Muslim kingdoms,Crusaders,British,etc.) , and their heritage is so mixed, there is no way to determine who rightfully owns the land. Heck, I'm sure some of my distant ancestors were Crusaders, and consequently occupied parts of Israel for a generation or two. Hey, maybe I own Israel! Practically speaking,the Palestinians are unorganized and have done little to improve their current living condition, so I see the Jewish Israeli's continuing to control Palestine for now.
Link Posted: 5/23/2001 7:10:12 AM EDT
The current controllers of the land have less ties to it by birthright than the Palestinians.
Link Posted: 5/23/2001 8:28:30 AM EDT
personally i think both sides should share the land, and let things be. but in the vein of your question, it seems it's sorta like a good parking space. do you give it to the guy who is a relative of the new guy trying to park but who has been there for a while, or to the guys who have been there less but more consistently. they really need to share it. or do you give it to people who would take better care of the land? if it were still only palistinians there - it would look alot like cairo - the crappy mud houses that they have used for eons, the land would still be mostly desert and most likely there would be massive food shortages. the israelis have done a bang up job of making it a better place to live. HOWEVER - if you give the land back to the people who were there (but there were jews there as well, just not as many) then we as americans should give back the united states to the native americans and leave. steve
Link Posted: 5/23/2001 8:43:00 AM EDT
Ted Turner
Link Posted: 5/23/2001 11:33:52 AM EDT
Stirring the pot... Does [b]how[/b] a people develop the land reflect on their rightful ownership? The Romans did an unheard of job developing the lands they occupied for example, but did that make them anymore sovereign for those occupied lands?
Link Posted: 5/23/2001 7:19:08 PM EDT
jdp, a good question. the romans were sovereign in the lands they conquered and annexed for reasons well beyond military strength etc... they opened up their society to new people, with rights of citizenry etc... their religion was for the most part inclusive and did not revolve around a "jealous" god, and their economic and political systems were very appealing to most in the med. roman society was so influential that even the barbarians from germany didnt necessarily want to destroy the romans, they wanted a peice of the pie. all of these attributes helped in making rome as powerful as it was. now look at israel and the palastinians, almost no similarities. i think who ever implements the ideas alexander the great, or rome or even america had while conquering or annexing in the middle east, would be the most "deserving" occupier. right now it seems that if it continues the way it is, no one will ever be happy.
Link Posted: 5/23/2001 8:00:07 PM EDT
Israel is one of the only democracies in the area. By that virtue, they deserve the territory. They even allow their Arabic citizens to vote. Israel will continue to hold out until the Arabs totally outnumber them, or the cash runs out from us.
Link Posted: 5/23/2001 8:40:53 PM EDT
OK, Is the structure of a government a reflection on rightful ownership of land? You and I both know that a democracy is favorable to [u]our[/u] people, but if a people stand behind a merciful King or Dictator who does not misrepresent his people's best interests, is that government structure any less viable than an equally effective democracy for [u]those[/u] people? I am not advocating dictatorships or monarchies, mind you. But if a country chooses a style of government, and it is effective for them, why should we care?
Link Posted: 5/23/2001 9:09:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/23/2001 10:57:19 PM EDT
borders change over time and throughout history. what was once Prussia, after WW1 is now Germany, and Prussians no longer exist. the island of Ireland was once 1 country, now its 2. the American Indians have a historical claim to this land, but do we ALL move back to europe, africa or asia? i figure the palestinians just need to learn to live with historical changes
Link Posted: 5/23/2001 11:05:27 PM EDT
Gheeeeez! It's sounding a bit like the UN in here. As has been said, the land has been occupied by many over the years. If we give land back to all the "original" owners, we would all have a serious problem. Go there, or better yet, fight there, and I think you will be able to make a decision very quickly. I was young and dumb(dumber?[:)])on my first assignment there and it took me less than a day in country to figure it out. I'll take the current Israeli government, with all its faults, over anything the terrorists(PLO, etc.)have to offer. And none of the "one mans terrorist" crap. Amongst other things, these scum purposely target non-combatants, and regularly use their own women and children for cover. A very large body of decent Arab Israelis want the current government to stay in place. They know how life will be under any terrorist regime. More importantly, they know that a democratic government provides the only opportunity for a peaceful, equitable, resolution.
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 1:37:14 PM EDT
The people with the guns make the rules Israelis took it by force just like its been done around the world throughout time this makes it theirs
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 1:38:10 PM EDT
we should get it
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 2:06:33 PM EDT
Actually it belongs to God...The earth is the Lords and the fullness thereof...After God it pretty much belongs to whoever He gives it to...The Bible further states that the land will "vomit out its inhabitants who practice wickedness"...The Lord gives and the Lord takes away...blessed be the name of the Lord...
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 3:28:23 PM EDT
Yeah I guess, But the Jews got vomited out of that land 2000 years ago. Can they come back yet? Than again, if you have 3 different religions concentrated in that small area, which ones are going to listen and believe in the Bible vs. Koran vs. Torah? Due respect 9divdoc, I think your statement is irrelevant to the discussion, at least in the way WE (as humans) can effect change. I too have been in Israel (last year before the SHTF) and agree with [b]Unclestu[/b] that the Israelis have their shit together and the Palestinians are animals. But recently someone equated the situation that Israel is in which smacks of Nazi Germany and their exclusivist attitude toward others. To give them credit though, the Israelis have practically given their right arm for peace with Arafat.
Link Posted: 5/24/2001 11:48:45 PM EDT
well maybe we can do it this way, let's pretend we are the rulers of the world, and we will choose who gets the land. the criteria obviously would be, which system is more beneficial to individual liberties? since that has to be the key ingredient to ruling a region regardless of religion, or original domain. it seems as if the israeli govt would better recognize the importance of the individual's need for liberty. With that in mind, it seems israel should get the land. but we shouldnt think of liberty in a narrow sense, think of liberty as; protection from enemies, goverment, tyrants, economic problems, disease etc...
Link Posted: 5/25/2001 9:48:20 PM EDT
maybe we should just convert the whole area into Zen Buddhists, might be quicker, easier and cheaper [:D]
Link Posted: 5/27/2001 7:12:26 AM EDT
in 1948 the UN ended the british mandate of the region called palistine, the map was redrawn and a section of the new map bacame israel. a flood of jewish refugees into the region created a flood of palistinian refugees. you do the math. but if you think like most people, you'll agree that the persecuted jews of the war deserved a homeland SOMEWHERE, where they could rebuild as a people. they sure did a great job with it (excepting violence) but there are those who think arafat needs war and needs to impoverish his own people in order to retain power. interesting topic! i don't know if there is a right answer!!!! -my .02
Link Posted: 5/27/2001 4:07:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fattym4: in 1948 the UN ended the british mandate of the region called palistine, the map was redrawn and a section of the new map bacame israel. a flood of jewish refugees into the region created a flood of palistinian refugees. you do the math. but if you think like most people, you'll agree that the persecuted jews of the war deserved a homeland SOMEWHERE, where they could rebuild as a people. they sure did a great job with it (excepting violence) but there are those who think arafat needs war and needs to impoverish his own people in order to retain power. interesting topic! i don't know if there is a right answer!!!! -my .02
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A) What right do the British have in reallocating Palistine? B) For a group of formerly persecuted people, the Isrealis have short memories. They turned the former occupants of Palistine in to permanent, countryless nomads. C) Yeah, the persecuted Jews of WWII did need a place to live in peace, but why force their occupation on to an already soveriegn nation? Why didn't they just spread out around Western Europe and the U.S.? After all, they came from various European countries to begin with. The Palestinians weren't given a vote or any voice. How would YOU like it if a more powerful nation decided to fill up the entire United States with millions of Arab immigrants, forcing all of us to wander Mexico or Canada for eternity? I don't expect the Isrealis to just pack up and leave, but then again, I totally understand why Arabs and the Palistinians HATE the Jews. Makes sense to me.
Link Posted: 5/27/2001 5:55:08 PM EDT
Did the Palestinians get to vote when the British took over before the Israelis, or the French before them?
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 4:46:17 AM EDT
just to answer some questions from above: the british mandate began as a decree from the league of nations in 1939 from the ottoman empire. the brits agreed at that time to begin allowing jewish immigrants totalling 75000 into the region, but wanted to keep the land for themselves as a military staging area. the migration was to end entirely in 1945 - so you could say the ball was rolling BEFORE american involvement in wwII. BUT it was zionist preasures here and the facts created by illigal jewish migrations during these years that ultimately forced president truman's hand in urging london to open the lands up for europpean jews. in fact, we also replaced british influence in iran after the war, and the brits and russians for a time refused to leave! so, if you think about it, strategy played a role in this, as truman had the foresight to realize that we needed an ally and a naval/air base in the middle east, and israel became our only outpost in the region. nobody got to vote, palistinians had no say whatsoever. now, do i AGREE with dumping so many refugees in a land spoken for, to the point of displacing just as many people? i don't know. i don't want to agree, but there are many examples of americans doing the same thing right here - do the words manifest destiny mean anything to anybody??? the native americans had no vote either, the only difference being the land was not a gift to us, we took it OURSELVES, by force.
Link Posted: 5/28/2001 8:54:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fattym4: just to answer some questions from above: the british mandate began as a decree from the league of nations in 1939 from the ottoman empire. the brits agreed at that time to begin allowing jewish immigrants totalling 75000 into the region, but wanted to keep the land for themselves as a military staging area. the migration was to end entirely in 1945 - so you could say the ball was rolling BEFORE american involvement in wwII. BUT it was zionist preasures here and the facts created by illigal jewish migrations during these years that ultimately forced president truman's hand in urging london to open the lands up for europpean jews. in fact, we also replaced british influence in iran after the war, and the brits and russians for a time refused to leave! so, if you think about it, strategy played a role in this, as truman had the foresight to realize that we needed an ally and a naval/air base in the middle east, and israel became our only outpost in the region. nobody got to vote, palistinians had no say whatsoever. now, do i AGREE with dumping so many refugees in a land spoken for, to the point of displacing just as many people? i don't know. i don't want to agree, but there are many examples of americans doing the same thing right here - do the words manifest destiny mean anything to anybody??? the native americans had no vote either, the only difference being the land was not a gift to us, we took it OURSELVES, by force.
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Good point. Manifest destiny is the key concept.
Link Posted: 5/29/2001 5:57:14 PM EDT
Being an Irishman, married to a Jew, and having a Lebanese step fahter, I have managed to figure that whole problem out. As to who "deserves" Isreal? Noone! it's a hot dry sand bar surrounded by the same. Noone deserves to live in a place like that. As for peace in Isreal forget it!Those people love to fight almost as much as the Irish. God bless Ireland! and if there was peace [puke] where would we test all our cool weapons? [beer]
Link Posted: 5/29/2001 6:36:41 PM EDT
chris boyle, exactly. i'll drink to ALL that! [beer] -fatty
Link Posted: 5/29/2001 6:45:37 PM EDT
Under God's covenant with the Jews, he would restore their land to them. However if they become unrighteous again they will then be delivered over to the Arabs, again. The same fate will happen to THE U.S.A. if we don't repent of our lifestyle and defend our rights against the liberals who want to take them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [sniper] [uzi] [shotgun]
Link Posted: 5/30/2001 12:56:22 AM EDT
Back to the original question.... [b]Historically[/b] speaking, who deserves Israel?
Link Posted: 5/30/2001 1:36:45 AM EDT
What come first the chicken or the egg? [grenade]
Link Posted: 5/30/2001 4:10:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JDP: Back to the original question.... [b]Historically[/b] speaking, who deserves Israel?
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They ALL deserve it but they're too foolish to share it. Someone of them (Isreali prime minister?) said something like this...I can forgive you for KILLING my children, but I will never forgive you for MAKING me kill YOUR'S. As I said they desrve each other and that sad little piece of sand. Read "tribes with diferent flags" (I may have the title wrong but its something like that) It clearly shows the war mentalitty of all involved and the only answer to your question is they ALL DESERVE IT.[v]
Link Posted: 5/30/2001 4:44:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/30/2001 4:46:00 PM EDT by fattym4]
i was thinking, (usually a BIG mistake!) that it isn't so much a question of WHO deserves it at all. and can be looked at many ways. A) clearly the palistinians owned and operated the desert in question at the time of israel's creation B) but the jews have a right to return after being booted out of every "decent" desert in the neighborhood, including this one (ancient history) BUT rather it is has to do with WHO CAN HOLD THE LAND. the current prime minister was elected because of his ability to "create facts on the ground" ie: settlements in sometimes disputed territories. - in current thought, it is OKAY to live in a land previously owned - children are learning it in school right now! remember learning about how the west was won?? WE KILLED THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED HERE, AND STOLE THEIR LAND!!! and, as it turns out, we're not only good at it, we're not alone!
Link Posted: 5/31/2001 4:16:10 PM EDT
Israel gave the Palestinians the opportunity to live in peace, in their own land, governed by themselves. And they threw that away. Now, Israel needs to beat them into total submission, kick them into the West Bank and seal their borders. And, Quid pro Quo style, every time there is an attack against Israel, launch a retaliatory strike against Palestine even bigger until Arafat gets control of Hammas et al. Yes, this smacks of the Holocaust, but sometimes you have to physically separate children in order for them to get along. Israel has the right to be secure afterall, just like Palestine. Let time heals all wounds.
Link Posted: 5/31/2001 8:58:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/31/2001 9:04:20 PM EDT by unclestu]
Originally Posted By JDP: Back to the original question.... [b]Historically[/b] speaking, who deserves Israel?
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Okay, how far back would you like to go? The Descendants of Noah,Ancient Egyptian Empire,Canann and Aram, The Kingdom of Saul,The Empire of David and Solomon, The Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, The Babylonian Empire, The Assyrian Empire, The Persian Empire, The Greek Empire, The Hebrews under Maccabee, The Roman Empire, The Byzantines, The Saracenic Empire, The Crusaders, The French, The Ottoman Empire, The British Mandate Period,.....Did I miss anyone? Probably. I think that brings us up to 1948. A couple things we shouldn't forget: -The Brits didn't just step in to the area. They forced the Ottomon-Turks(who were fighting on the side of the Axis powers in WWI)to leave the area. They did that with the help of Jewish Brigades and local Jewish intel. -UN divided the area into a Jewish state and an Arab one in 1947. In 1948,on May 14th Ben Gurion officially proclaimed the State of Israel. On May 15th the Arab State(Palestinians) and the Arab neighbors attacked Israel with the intent of complete annihilation. They got their ass kicked, and Israel took control of much of the Arab territories. This is something the Palestinians always gloss over. Israel was prepared to live peacefully with their neighbors. It was the Arabs who attacked with plans of genocide. Historically speaking, the Jewish Israelis have as good a claim (or better in my opinion) as anyone on the land. And they are at least willing to try and run the country in a civilized, democratic manner, leaving the area open to all faiths. This is far more than can be said of the Palestinians, or any of the previous Arab inhabitants. edited for date clarity
Link Posted: 6/2/2001 4:19:18 PM EDT
Personally, I think Unclestu has just about summed it all up. Well done. [beer]
Link Posted: 6/4/2001 6:12:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M4: A) What right do the British have in reallocating Palistine?
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They were ruling there, after WWI, when they wiped away Ottoman Empire. The plan to create A zionist state and a palestinian state, however, was never enforced, on the contrary, was osbtacled. Take as example the shameful episode of the Exodus ship.
B) For a group of formerly persecuted people, the Isrealis have short memories. They turned the former occupants of Palistine in to permanent, countryless nomads.
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Is it a question?
C) Yeah, the persecuted Jews of WWII did need a place to live in peace, but why force their occupation on to an already soveriegn nation? Why didn't they just spread out around Western Europe and the U.S.? After all, they came from various European countries to begin with.
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In 1947 there was no such a thing like a "sovereign nation" in Palestine, but only a British dominion.
The Palestinians weren't given a vote or any voice. How would YOU like it if a more powerful nation decided to fill up the entire United States with millions of Arab immigrants, forcing all of us to wander Mexico or Canada for eternity? I don't expect the Isrealis to just pack up and leave, but then again, I totally understand why Arabs and the Palistinians HATE the Jews. Makes sense to me.
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This sentence speaks for itself...
Link Posted: 6/4/2001 6:34:32 AM EDT
Sorry for posting twice, but I need to add something further to my last post. Aside the fact that I think the question (who deserves Israel?) is not the correct one, again I saw some "common thoughts" expressing the bizarre idea that jews were "parachuted" in Palestine or the were "teletranported". They were there, in reduced number, ALWAYS. And all the root of the jewish culture is based on memories, assumption, ceremonies based on what is actually called Israel. This community, discriminated, without civil rights, prosecuted for 600 years, was called Yishuv. The arabs have only to comlpaint themselv if Israel is existing again and to their long-dated antisemitic education. No antisemitism no Irael. To those one that are surprisingly convinced that Israelis, being mainly of European origins, I suggest to read the conclusions of the Evian Conference, held in July 6-15 1938. Of the 29 nations partecipating on this conference NO ONE decided to modify their rule of immigration to give shelter to the "refugees". (mainly jews form Germany) I hope that Emendament here is still granted...
Link Posted: 6/8/2001 8:28:49 AM EDT
Nuke it. Turn it into a landfill. Anybody who wants out gets to move to Kansas. The UN and US in 1948 after the war was arrogant as hell thinking that they could just provide the Jews with a "homeland" even though the Palestinians were already living there. If not Kansas, maybe Texas . . .
Link Posted: 6/9/2001 5:45:54 PM EDT
Not trying to start a religous debate, but The Bible says that Ishmael (Muslims/Arabs) would forever be a thorn in his brother Isaac's (Israel/Jews) side. Since I believe the Bible is true I know without a shodow of a doubt that they will NEVER get along so they might as well go ahead and GET IT ON!!!
Link Posted: 6/16/2001 2:11:17 PM EDT
The Israelis deserve the land of Israel. Here is why: (1.) Book of Genesis in the Bible. God promised Abraham that his children (the Jews) would have land in what became known as the "promised land". In the Bible God clearly defined the promised land's boundarys. These boundaries include the Sinai Desert, all of Israel proper, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. (2.) For centuries after the fall of Israel, the descendents of the Philistines (now known as the Palestines) controlled this land and named it Palestine. During that time period Jews were routinely persecuted. Meanwhile the Palestines had made NO improvements in the land that they ruled. (3.) After the Jews managed a successful campaign of insurrection against the British in Occupied Palestine..the nation of Israel was born. And Israel shared a border with Palestine. The Palestinians and other Arabs refused to accept the idea of being next door to a Jewish Nation and attacked Israel in 1948. The Israelis won that war, and then took over the newly freed (from British Rule: thanks to the Jews) Palestine. 4.) from this time frame onward the Jewish residents of Israel made improvements in the environment of Israel by irrigating the desert, planting trees and shrubs, they also industrialized and educated their population. 5.) Meanwhile the Palestinians have been ceaselessly committing terrorist attacks against unarmed Jewish civilians. All ceasefire and peace agreements which the Palestinians made with the Jews..the Palestinians later ended up violating those peace agreements and ceasefires. As much as I hate to admit...as time goes on and I get older (and wiser) I think that the former (deceased) Rabbi and Israeli Parliment Member: Meir Kahane had the right idea. The ONLY way that the Israeli's can EVER have peace with the Palistinians is the completely expel ALL Palistinians from both the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Link Posted: 6/17/2001 5:49:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Bostonterrier97: The Israelis deserve the land of Israel. Here is why: (1.) Book of Genesis in the Bible. God promised Abraham that his children (the Jews) would have land in what became known as the "promised land". In the Bible God clearly defined the promised land's boundarys. These boundaries include the Sinai Desert, all of Israel proper, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. (2.) For centuries after the fall of Israel, the descendents of the Philistines (now known as the Palestines) controlled this land and named it Palestine. During that time period Jews were routinely persecuted. Meanwhile the Palestines had made NO improvements in the land that they ruled. (3.) After the Jews managed a successful campaign of insurrection against the British in Occupied Palestine..the nation of Israel was born. And Israel shared a border with Palestine. The Palestinians and other Arabs refused to accept the idea of being next door to a Jewish Nation and attacked Israel in 1948. The Israelis won that war, and then took over the newly freed (from British Rule: thanks to the Jews) Palestine. 4.) from this time frame onward the Jewish residents of Israel made improvements in the environment of Israel by irrigating the desert, planting trees and shrubs, they also industrialized and educated their population. 5.) Meanwhile the Palestinians have been ceaselessly committing terrorist attacks against unarmed Jewish civilians. All ceasefire and peace agreements which the Palestinians made with the Jews..the Palestinians later ended up violating those peace agreements and ceasefires. As much as I hate to admit...as time goes on and I get older (and wiser) I think that the former (deceased) Rabbi and Israeli Parliment Member: Meir Kahane had the right idea. The ONLY way that the Israeli's can EVER have peace with the Palistinians is the completely expel ALL Palistinians from both the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
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Education is the solution. I love Israel, and the jewish culture, BUT in the effort of spread education between their citiziens, the LOWEST BUDGET for education (and almost for everything)was reserved for Israeli Arabs and Bedouins. And, even if they are enjoying better conditions in many fields (work, education, democracy...) if compared with their brothers living in Arab countries, that's was never considered enough. And it is not enough. ANd maybe is too late. About palestinians: in 1948 emigration from Palestine and unempoyement was high. The actual Israel was almost deserted, and the only arabs willing to remain where: landowners, workers in farms owned by kibutzim and moshavim. One thing to remark is this: while the Israeli arabs where reputed unreliable and they NEVER displayed the will to behave like Israelis citiziens, and NEVER asked to make the period of military service in Tsaha'l, the Beduins and the Druzim DEMANDED and OBTAINED the right to do it. They are incredible and the best tracker of the IDF. The shame is that Israel is still reserving (despite Israeli press campaigns) them the lowest budgets...
Link Posted: 7/1/2001 6:54:41 PM EDT
The Arabs accept Abraham as the father of the Jews and Muslims. Therefore they accept the Torah, then it is a legally binding covenant. For them to persecute the Jews is to bring down the wrath of G*d.
Link Posted: 7/1/2001 6:59:22 PM EDT
all your holy lands are belong to us
Link Posted: 7/1/2001 7:12:05 PM EDT
The Earth Is The Lords And The Fullness Thereof...He made it...so it pretty much belongs to God. & He can give to whoever He likes...If these are indeed the "end times" as some think...then we are about to witness prophecies come true...War is coming and Israel will be in the thick of it..its just a matter of time...God promises to claim His own and take what is rightfully His and restore those He promised to restore...Pick a side choose this day who you will serve...God or self... its a matter of time before this goes nuke even if limited the USA is probably going to be in the middle of it..get yourself and your family right with the Almighty before its too late or dont bother cause none of this is real....or maybe just some of it is real....
Link Posted: 7/1/2001 8:27:16 PM EDT
They both deserve it. I wonder if either will ever give up on it. First I was against the peace plans, but I can totally imagine the Israeli people becoming tired of the fighting for 50 plus years.
Link Posted: 7/2/2001 6:26:01 PM EDT
Whatever became of the Jebuzites? Pax Tecum, Fr. Schnert
Link Posted: 7/6/2001 2:29:58 AM EDT
How about Timeshare? Really, I don't think the answer lies in a historical precedent. This fight will go on forever unless the mystery of what happens after we die is answered and religion is no longer relevant.
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