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Posted: 5/14/2001 3:06:00 PM EDT
Here's the deal. I am considering re-classing to 13F. There is a unit near here that will take me and I can get bumped up an E grade too. So what was it like, experiences, regrets, good times, bad times, what? I am at that point where I am ready for a new MOS and want to do something that is high-speed, fun, rewarding, outdoors, and where I get to blow up sh!t, or at least cause other people to blow up sh!t. My main concern I have is a back injury I had last year. A Mae West PLF last year gave me a no running permanent profile. I was told that it will not affect my being able to become a 13F, go to the school, or work in the field. This was told to me by an E6 in that unit, but I have not seen anything in writing yet. For the profile I am simply not supposed to do the APFT run. Everything else (hump, shoot, crawl, etc) I am cleared to do. Just want to find out any opinions on that issue. What do ya'll do that is back-intensive? Should I go for it or is there a more than small chance I could be re-injured. They also said they could send me to Air Assault school real easily, which I have always wanted to do, but then they changed it to "no" when I said I couldn't APFT run. Man, that sucks goat ****, I've always wanted to do that too. Anyone ever done or know if I could get a medical waiver to attend AA school? Could I as a simple E4P do it, or would I have to have an O6 pull some strings to get it done, or are my hopes in vain? So anyone who is/was a 13F or Air Assault I'd please ask for some insight on your experiences and what you think about all the above. Please enlighten this young impressionable troop. Thanks, Clay
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 3:40:32 PM EDT
M4 Although I am not in the Army I have been an Arty LNO (same thing as a Battalion FSO) in the Marine Corps before and have sat through the 13F course at Fort Sill for a Marine Corps POI review for our 0861 MASOC (course) . If you are going to work in a light/AASLT unit, the chances are if you cannot hump with a pack, at most levels this includes acting as a RTO, you shouldn't be allowed into that billet. If you are a SSg (and in many cases a Sgt) or higher than you would either be a FIST chief or a FSE NCO/chief. The FIST chief would be expected to be in pretty good shape, because you will be humping with an infantry company. If you end up in a FSE, you might end up with a humvee, so less humping/rucking would be involved. The job itself at the junior levels is all about calling for fire from either arty or mortars, you will need to be trained in your unit on how to do in extremis CAS and naval gunfire. At the higher levels it all becomes about training your subordinated in the previous skills and assisting either the Company/Troop or Battalion/Squadron FSO fire plan and do bottom up refinements to top down fire plans.
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 4:28:47 PM EDT
STLRN, Thanks. I am allowed and not hurt by rucking, walking, humping or plain hiking, and there is nothing in my profile that says that, so I should be ok in that respect. Running is just considered a high back-impact exercise and for long term purposes they don't want it taking the pounding then me being screwed up for life. Rucking, even with the weight on my back is a lot smoother and more controlled than trying to run for long periods on hard pavement. (I guess, the Army says so anyway) Anything more strenuous than a good long ruck march though and I might not be in so good a shape for a short period of time. I tend to recover quickly though. Right now I am a spec/E4 waiting to be promoted to Sgt. If I become the 13F I will be an E5 Sgt. Also the unit IS a field arty unit with mostly howitzers I believe, and their 13F DO hump with an infantry unit and call the fire for those guns. RTO has not been a problem with me in the past. Other than the higher likelyhood to be shot or shot at, I have not had a problem with it.
Link Posted: 5/14/2001 4:41:20 PM EDT
M4 Most time in peace time training Arty FS personnel do what are know as "service practice" shoots. In those you don't do any real fire support training. You go to the hill, OP, and sit there and call for fire. Unfortunately, this is the pattern with too many artillery unit, there fire support personnel, serve more as training tools for their cannon batteries. If you have a good DS Battalion commander and BDE FSO, he will marry you up with your supported maneuver unit and you will go to the field when they do. The observed fire skills are easier to maintain than the liaison and fire support skills you will need in war time. If that happens the "slap in the face" that occurs the first time you meet your maneuver unit and try to work with them when you go on a CTC rotation or a "real world" mission will be lighten tremendously.
Link Posted: 5/16/2001 9:22:39 AM EDT
M4Guy, nothing in AA that is back intensive, any more so than any of the other stuff you mentioned that you can do. There is morning PT just like there is every morning at your regular unit. If you can hump, crawl, hike I can't see why they would'nt let you in.
Link Posted: 5/16/2001 9:38:19 AM EDT
The only problem I can see is like with any Army school, you must be able to score a 70 in every catagory of the APFT. I don't know if they will accept a waiver, but it is worth looking into. The school is worth it. Good luck!
Link Posted: 5/16/2001 12:19:33 PM EDT
Don't know about the standards for 13F, but I can tell you that the APFT is a no-waiver requirement for AASLT. I was a battalion schools NCO for 18 months at Ft. Campbell, and I had previously been an instructor at the Ft. Campbell AASLT school (in the '80s). Participation in PT (Especially the run) is a requirement for graduation. AASLT is kinda lame anyway. Try to get Pathfinder if you can. It's much harder (my class lost 27 out of 52 - 18 on the slingload hands-on, 9 on the DZST exam), but you learn a heck of a lot more. Plus, that huge (and highly asymmetrical) badge looks great.
Link Posted: 5/16/2001 1:49:57 PM EDT
STLRN, I will look into that. I don't want to just be a training aid and not train. I undertand these folks go hump a lot with the infantry and is supposed to be a somewhat high-speed unit, but I don't know enough yet to confirm it yet. Alphajaguars, I am not sure how they work it since I had not had to take a PT test with the profile yet. I was told by one person that they take the average of your other two scores to get it. By that then if you score 70+ in P.U. and S.U. you are also counted as having a 70+ in 2M.R. However I was also told I have a timed walk I do for 2 miles, and I was also told I have a timed 2.5 mile walk, and I was also told there was some silly exercise bike thing to do instead of the run. Even the people who are supposed to know are giving conflicting answers which is annoying. I am probably going to go this week and talk to the big Bird down at the TMC. He is the one that wrote me the profile and if anyone should be able to tell me a straight no BS answer I think he can. Thanks, TwoBeerLimit, that's what I was afraid of with AA. Man, that sucks, I was really wanting to do that. I still want to see if I can get a high-up enough to recommend some sort of special waiver, change the reg, or revoke my permanent profile for a few weeks?[?]? So Pathfinder school does not require APFT running to graduate? I would do that too or in stead of AA if they will send me there. Were people failing the school because of being weak (PT wise) or academically?
Link Posted: 5/16/2001 1:59:10 PM EDT
I went to AA school at Campbell in '96, (We Have a Rondezvous wth destiny..... our strength and courage strike the spark, that will always make men free.......)and there was nobody there with a waiver. As far as physical limitations for 13F, look in the "MOS" book which I believe is one of the 600 series books. It will tell you what the minimum requirements (p[hysical) are for each MOS. Sorry for the typo's, had surgery on my hand today Robert
Link Posted: 5/17/2001 4:38:23 AM EDT
M4Guy, All of the flunk-outs were academic. There is no PT in the Pathfinder school. We were there from 0500 to 2100 every day (except weekends). There is so much memorization, especially for the slingload portion (link-counts, tensile strengths, etc.) and DZST (formulas, airdrop speeds, yada-yada). It was tough, but it was mentally tough. There is a land nav requirement, but that's only during your graded exercise (you have to be able to find your DZ or LZ - Were talking an area several hundred meters long/wide - not too difficult). They require a passing PT score, and a current (within one year of the start date) physical, but you wouldn't have to mention the profile. Again, no PT in the course. They are too busy bombarding you with numbers for that.
Link Posted: 5/17/2001 4:52:36 AM EDT
I don't know of a single Army school that will waiver the PT test, or portions thereof. Schools don't even consider people who fail to meet the standards or prerequisites. Try to get rid of the profile if your injury has healed. The guys at the TMC should be receptive to revoking the profile as long as you can prove you've recovered. Ed
Link Posted: 5/17/2001 5:23:26 AM EDT
LOSE THE &^%$^( profile. The army loses medical records all the time. I have good friends who are docs (MDs, not medics) - they give profiles like that all of the time because there is little you can do as a doctor to figure out what might be causing back pain. In fact, a favorit trick of mikingerers is to complain of back pain - guaranteed profile. If you are truly concerned about long term health - see a civilian back expert (not a chiropractor, a real MD or DO!) The cost may be worth your piece of mind. Otherwise, lose the medical records of your injury and do what you want to do. If your back really is messed up, it is liable to start hurting again - in which case as far as the army is concerned that will be the first time - the extent of the injury will be no less and long term disability benefits will still be there (though not sure how RC retirement works!) If it don't hurt you - don't let it slow you down. Doctors like to err on the side of caution. Good fortune favors the bold! As for me, I have had Army and Civilian docs want to cut into my knee. I got over it - amazingly no record of such knee problems exists in my medical records anymore. How did that happen, you ask [:D]? No telling, but I've since gone through jump school, gotten commissioned, and been deployed to crazy places - no permanent profile on this man. Adam
Link Posted: 5/17/2001 6:27:29 AM EDT
That's the spirit Adam! I'm glad to see that I'm not the only prior service officer with cleaned up medical records. Ed
Link Posted: 5/17/2001 11:29:17 AM EDT
Hey Twobeerslimit were you at Campbell between 87-89? If you were maybe you had the pleasure of making me do some pushups. NO SLACK!
Link Posted: 5/17/2001 2:26:07 PM EDT
Robert, sorry about your hand. I'm actually going to go talk to the R&R guy tomorrow. If anyone could look up the MOS book he could. Adam, I was actually seeing an Orthopedic surgeon since that was his field. He is the one that recommended the no running. I could run even right now, but all parties concerned were worried about the long term affect of constantly pounding asphalt on a spinal cord that is missing half a vertebrae. I can run when I have to but I don't want to take too huge of a risk. Rucking doesn't bother me. I may take you up on that advice and "accidentally" loose or at least forget I have the profile to go to the school. I'm not sure, but there might be a code in the computer system or something though stating that there is a profile? Somebody told me there was a PHUBUSS code or something like that. If there is no computer flag I think I can tough it out for a few weeks at school.
Link Posted: 5/18/2001 4:56:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/18/2001 4:56:55 AM EDT by Adam_White]
The PULLHES (or something like that) Code - hell do those ever change after your initial physical at MEPS? Trust me - if the Army was that sophisticated we wouldn't all have stories about getting the same shots two or three times because we didn;t realize it was shot day - and left OUR copies - that damn yellow card - in our wall lockers. Also, my boss - I "senior military executive" wouldn't be so pissed about his records being lost. He is pisses because proof of his past injuries - which may add up to $$ in retiremtn disability benefits - got lost with them. Also, If Army record keeping was any good, my ORB wouldn't show me at Ft. Bragg when I am instead in Korea [:D]. Adam Oh, BTW - I am no Dr. but I just find it weird that your back can handle a rucksack, and all the pulls and twists and weight associated with it - but can't handle a run! What if you run with your ruck?
Link Posted: 5/26/2001 9:10:00 PM EDT
Adam, I really don't know, I guess it's just the Army mentality. They said no APFT running but I can do everything else. I guess that means running with the ruck?? I found out that my PHULLES(sp?) code isn't changed yet. If I transfer now and get in school before it changes (if it does) then there will be nothing they can do anyway. I have kept copies of everything out the ass. I have the signed and approved LOD report, so whenever I get out or if I have trouble in the future I can get medical care taken care of in the future. Without those few slips of paper you are screwed, and medical bills aren't going down.
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