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Posted: 3/16/2005 2:48:44 AM EST
Something I have wondered about is, just how far out can a shotgun blast be considered effective.
A few major components here would be gauge, shot selection, and choke.

For practical purposes, I propose a test with a 12Gauge.
Vary the loads from buck shot through skeet shot, lead to steel, etc.

I would love to see the damage done to a manequin at say 25 yards, 50 yards, 100 yards.....and beyond if applicable.

I am mostly interested in penetration. A cardboard cutout wont show anything other than pattern.
Maybe a plywood cutout, like a silloutte would do the trick. Perhaps sheetrock?

If this has already been done, anyone have a link?

Link Posted: 3/16/2005 2:50:22 AM EST
You also need to make sure you use a choke-less barrel like most 18" defense shotguns have.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 3:00:05 AM EST
A Marine buddy of mine did pretty well with his 12 gauge shotty at 75 yards in a simulated combat course.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 3:18:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
A Marine buddy of mine did pretty well with his 12 gauge shotty at 75 yards in a simulated combat course.



Ripley: How many drops is this for you, Lieutenant?
Gorman: Thirty eight... simulated.
Vasquez: How many *combat* drops?
Gorman: Uh, two. Including this one.
Drake: Shit.
Hudson: Oh, man...
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 9:11:55 AM EST
Better off with an accurate handgun. Shotguns are heavy, carry few rounds and are just better suited for bird hunting.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 9:21:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By cheeks:
Better off with an accurate handgun. Shotguns are heavy, carry few rounds and are just better suited for bird hunting.



I hope that was a tongue-in-cheeks remark
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 9:28:49 AM EST

Originally Posted By cheeks:
Better off with an accurate handgun. Shotguns are heavy, carry few rounds and are just better suited for bird hunting.






You can't be serious.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 9:31:29 AM EST
I was shooting buckshot at 50 yards the other day, and it did surprisingly well.

I was quite surprised how high I was at about 10-20 yards though. With my 500, you would need to aim low at those ranges to ensure a hit.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 9:31:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2005 9:38:06 AM EST by Ajax72]

Originally Posted By cheeks:
Better off with an accurate handgun. Shotguns are heavy, carry few rounds and are just better suited for bird hunting.



You take the accurate handgun, I'll take my 12 Ga., then you can come around my house late at night uninvited and trying to get in.



Edited for $#itty grammar.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 9:33:57 AM EST

Hey, Old Painless ... How about some tests on the effective range of a 12GA shotgun?


Sounds interesting.

But first, I'd have to get permission from Brouhaha, danonly, and the other guys that think I am not "scientifically accurate" enough.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 9:40:54 AM EST
To me after about 50 yards with an 18" type barrel, it's just suppresive fire.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 9:52:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ajax72:

Originally Posted By cheeks:
Better off with an accurate handgun. Shotguns are heavy, carry few rounds and are just better suited for bird hunting.



You take the accurate handgun, I'll take my 12 Ga., then you can come around my house late at night uninvited and trying to get in.



Edited for $#itty grammar.



Well, at 100 yards, I can put every round I fire from my Glock 35 on a 8.5x11" piece of paper. Your little shotty might get there, but it might sting me a little. My .40 is gonna puch through you.

Your scattergun is better a close range(within ten feet), but my pistola is more versitile.

Not planning on breaking in and I am not a criminal.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 9:54:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2005 9:55:23 AM EST by rifleman2000]

Originally Posted By cheeks:
Well, at 100 yards, I can put every round I fire from my Glock 35 on a 8.5x11" piece of paper. Your little shotty might get there, but it might sting me a little. My .40 is gonna puch through you.

Your scattergun is better a close range(within ten feet), but my pistola is more versitile.

Not planning on breaking in and I am not a criminal.




You must be a world class shooter.



But you don't know much about shotguns.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 9:55:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Hey, Old Painless ... How about some tests on the effective range of a 12GA shotgun?


Sounds interesting.

But first, I'd have to get permission from Brouhaha, danonly, and the other guys that think I am not "scientifically accurate" enough.


:) "Scientifically accurate" is amusing when touted by those firing into the "simulated" flesh of ballistic gelatin. Especially when it's missing bones,denser organ structures and air voids among other variables found in real bodies.
I'll lean on what I've seen in animals that I've shot. That's good enough for me.
Your impromptu research on penetration of various household mediums has been quite useful,OP.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 9:56:34 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Hey, Old Painless ... How about some tests on the effective range of a 12GA shotgun?


Sounds interesting.

But first, I'd have to get permission from Brouhaha, danonly, and the other guys that think I am not "scientifically accurate" enough.



Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:03:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By cheeks:
Well, at 100 yards, I can put every round I fire from my Glock 35 on a 8.5x11" piece of paper. Your little shotty might get there, but it might sting me a little. My .40 is gonna puch through you.

Your scattergun is better a close range(within ten feet), but my pistola is more versitile.

Not planning on breaking in and I am not a criminal.




You must be a world class shooter.



But you don't know much about shotguns.



I have worked incident scenes where a shotty was used. One case was where a man was shot with a long barreled shotgun through a screendoor in the head at 20 feet. He looked like thguy from Hellraiser that had the grid on his head. Pellets went just under the skin. You could see the bumps all over.

He was a light skin black guy with a bald head. He was sitting up and speaking to the medics. I was not impressed. Seems the shape and softness of the buckshot just does not cut the mustard. Most cases I saw, the shotty just wounded.

For the .40, I saw where two gang bangers were shooting across a 300 yard field. One had a Glock .40. he shot the other guy in the chest at 300 yards. Dropped him like a sack of potatoes. Center mass to the chest. I think your shotgun would have "peppered him" like a New Orleans thunderstorm.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:11:06 AM EST
The shotgun effectiveness issue has already been tested pretty thoroughly in the gun press if you care to do the digging for the information. Practical application for standard 00 buck is limited to out to 20 yards or so. Beyond that you start to lose pellets off a man sized target ( liability). Slugs, use out to 50-60 yards to be SURE you stay on target, although that largely depends on what sights you have on the shotgun. Beyond 60 yards, you should be transitioning to or deploying your centerfire rifle as your primary long gun.

*post contains personal opinion only*
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:12:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By cheeks:
[I have worked incident scenes where a shotty was used. One case was where a man was shot with a long barreled shotgun through a screendoor in the head at 20 feet. He looked like thguy from Hellraiser that had the grid on his head. Pellets went just under the skin. You could see the bumps all over.

He was a light skin black guy with a bald head. He was sitting up and speaking to the medics. I was not impressed. Seems the shape and softness of the buckshot just does not cut the mustard. Most cases I saw, the shotty just wounded.

For the .40, I saw where two gang bangers were shooting across a 300 yard field. One had a Glock .40. he shot the other guy in the chest at 300 yards. Dropped him like a sack of potatoes. Center mass to the chest. I think your shotgun would have "peppered him" like a New Orleans thunderstorm.



Incident one, if he was shot with BUCKSHOT at 20 feet he would be dead. Obviously, it was much further away or it was low powered BIRDSHOT.

Incident two, I will bet a million dollars that nobody in the world ever got shot by anyone else at 300 yards with any handgun, let alone gang bangers with a glock. That is complete bullshit. So now I call into question your claim of being able to hit a piece of paper with your gun at 100 yards. No offense, but I call BS.

Your previous posts in this thread, IMHO, demonstrate that you lack some basic knowledge of firearms (difference between buckshot, birdshot) and have made some outrageous claims (shooting a piece of paper at 100 yards consistently and a thug HELL ANYONE hitting somebody in the chest with a handgun at 300 yards).

NOT TO START A FLAME WAR BUT
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:15:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
The shotgun effectiveness issue has already been tested pretty thoroughly in the gun press if you care to do the digging for the information. Practical application for standard 00 buck is limited to out to 20 yards or so. Beyond that you start to lose pellets off a man sized target ( liability). Slugs, use out to 50-60 yards to be SURE you stay on target, although that largely depends on what sights you have on the shotgun. Beyond 60 yards, you should be transitioning to or deploying your centerfire rifle as your primary long gun.

*post contains personal opinion only*



Exactly. Why limit yourself to 20 yards all the while lugging a bulky shotgun around. Does not make sense.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:17:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By tc556guy:
(Comments)

*post contains personal opinion only*



Just as a side note, that is a refreshing admission.

Perhaps I ought to add it to my sig line.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:17:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By cheeks:
[I have worked incident scenes where a shotty was used. One case was where a man was shot with a long barreled shotgun through a screendoor in the head at 20 feet. He looked like thguy from Hellraiser that had the grid on his head. Pellets went just under the skin. You could see the bumps all over.

He was a light skin black guy with a bald head. He was sitting up and speaking to the medics. I was not impressed. Seems the shape and softness of the buckshot just does not cut the mustard. Most cases I saw, the shotty just wounded.

For the .40, I saw where two gang bangers were shooting across a 300 yard field. One had a Glock .40. he shot the other guy in the chest at 300 yards. Dropped him like a sack of potatoes. Center mass to the chest. I think your shotgun would have "peppered him" like a New Orleans thunderstorm.



Incident one, if he was shot with BUCKSHOT at 20 feet he would be dead. Obviously, it was much further away or it was low powered BIRDSHOT.

Incident two, I will bet a million dollars that nobody in the world ever got shot by anyone else at 300 yards with any handgun, let alone gang bangers with a glock. That is complete bullshit. So now I call into question your claim of being able to hit a piece of paper with your gun at 100 yards. No offense, but I call BS.

Your previous posts in this thread, IMHO, demonstrate that you lack some basic knowledge of firearms (difference between buckshot, birdshot) and have made some outrageous claims (shooting a piece of paper at 100 yards consistently and a thug HELL ANYONE hitting somebody in the chest with a handgun at 300 yards).

NOT TO START A FLAME WAR BUT



Yeah well I was ready to go with the shotgun w/ slugs at 100 yards (especially after Gunsite "Tactical Shotgun") but at 300 this is getting pretty far out for someone with my limited skill with firearms. For 300 I would be thinking AR not 40 cal Glock. I am just not there yet.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:21:20 AM EST
I've just about decapitated a turkey at 50 yds with duplex loads....

I would say that shot to COM with buckshot and a tight choke would require a trip to the ER stat.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:23:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By cheeks:
[I have worked incident scenes where a shotty was used. One case was where a man was shot with a long barreled shotgun through a screendoor in the head at 20 feet. He looked like thguy from Hellraiser that had the grid on his head. Pellets went just under the skin. You could see the bumps all over.

He was a light skin black guy with a bald head. He was sitting up and speaking to the medics. I was not impressed. Seems the shape and softness of the buckshot just does not cut the mustard. Most cases I saw, the shotty just wounded.

For the .40, I saw where two gang bangers were shooting across a 300 yard field. One had a Glock .40. he shot the other guy in the chest at 300 yards. Dropped him like a sack of potatoes. Center mass to the chest. I think your shotgun would have "peppered him" like a New Orleans thunderstorm.



Incident one, if he was shot with BUCKSHOT at 20 feet he would be dead. Obviously, it was much further away or it was low powered BIRDSHOT.

Incident two, I will bet a million dollars that nobody in the world ever got shot by anyone else at 300 yards with any handgun, let alone gang bangers with a glock. That is complete bullshit. So now I call into question your claim of being able to hit a piece of paper with your gun at 100 yards. No offense, but I call BS.

Your previous posts in this thread, IMHO, demonstrate that you lack some basic knowledge of firearms (difference between buckshot, birdshot) and have made some outrageous claims (shooting a piece of paper at 100 yards consistently and a thug HELL ANYONE hitting somebody in the chest with a handgun at 300 yards).

NOT TO START A FLAME WAR BUT



I counted the pellets and group size on the guy. 00 buck.

incident two remarks: I have the reports to prove it. Granted it was a lucky shot, but the .40 penetrated and killed the gangbanger. Busted his heart by the way.

I have a wtiness on hitting 5 out of five with my 35. 2 shots were touching. It is not that hard once you get the swing of it. You need to be able to qualify expert before being any good at 100 yards though. .40 does not drop at all up to 100 yards out of a Glock 35.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:26:58 AM EST

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By cheeks:
[I have worked incident scenes where a shotty was used. One case was where a man was shot with a long barreled shotgun through a screendoor in the head at 20 feet. He looked like thguy from Hellraiser that had the grid on his head. Pellets went just under the skin. You could see the bumps all over.

He was a light skin black guy with a bald head. He was sitting up and speaking to the medics. I was not impressed. Seems the shape and softness of the buckshot just does not cut the mustard. Most cases I saw, the shotty just wounded.

For the .40, I saw where two gang bangers were shooting across a 300 yard field. One had a Glock .40. he shot the other guy in the chest at 300 yards. Dropped him like a sack of potatoes. Center mass to the chest. I think your shotgun would have "peppered him" like a New Orleans thunderstorm.



Incident one, if he was shot with BUCKSHOT at 20 feet he would be dead. Obviously, it was much further away or it was low powered BIRDSHOT.

Incident two, I will bet a million dollars that nobody in the world ever got shot by anyone else at 300 yards with any handgun, let alone gang bangers with a glock. That is complete bullshit. So now I call into question your claim of being able to hit a piece of paper with your gun at 100 yards. No offense, but I call BS.

Your previous posts in this thread, IMHO, demonstrate that you lack some basic knowledge of firearms (difference between buckshot, birdshot) and have made some outrageous claims (shooting a piece of paper at 100 yards consistently and a thug HELL ANYONE hitting somebody in the chest with a handgun at 300 yards).

NOT TO START A FLAME WAR BUT



Yeah well I was ready to go with the shotgun w/ slugs at 100 yards (especially after Gunsite "Tactical Shotgun") but at 300 this is getting pretty far out for someone with my limited skill with firearms. For 300 I would be thinking AR not 40 cal Glock. I am just not there yet.



He was not shot on the first shot. I think 10 or so shell casings were recovered from each side of the field. It was a luck shot, but proved a .40 is lethal at least to that distance.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:27:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2005 10:30:46 AM EST by innocent_bystander]
This is a good article.

home.sprynet.com/~frfrog/shotgun.htm


The table below shows the average results of firing at fifty and seventy-five yards at a full length human silhouette with #4, #1, 00, and 000 buck from cylinder bored, rifle sighted, riotgun. Note: most of the hits at 75 yards were very "marginal."

Loading Avg. Number of Hits
(Full sized humanoid target)

50 Yards 75 yards

27 pellet 4 buck 10 3
34 pellet 4 buck 6 2
16 pellet 1 buck 6 2
20 pellet 1 buck 7 4
9 pellet 00 buck 3 1
12 pellet 00 buck 4 2
8 pellet 000 buck 1 0
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:27:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2005 10:29:23 AM EST by red_on_black]

Having used reduced-power buck (both #1 and #4, 2-3/4", 12ga) to kill feral and nuisance animals, I know that even the lighter buck loads will penetrate hard bone (read: skull, shoulder, pelvis) and penetrate at least several inches into dense flesh. Does just fine at 25 yards on any living thing I've ever shot with it.

I've gotta second the , Cheeks.

Flame on.

(edited for spelling.)
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:33:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By red_on_black:

I've gotta second the , Cheeks.

Flame on.

(edited for spelling.)



Let's go easy with Cheeks.

He confirmed that the long range hit was a fluke, after many shots fired. certainly possible.

Just really, really bad luck for the gangbanger.

I, however, have a difficult time believeing that 00 Buck from 20 feet only made a flesh wound.

Must have been Superman.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:36:05 AM EST
Hey O P...

Not to stray off topic, but did my "care package" arrive safely ?
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:36:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By cheeks:
I counted the pellets and group size on the guy. 00 buck.

incident two remarks: I have the reports to prove it. Granted it was a lucky shot, but the .40 penetrated and killed the gangbanger. Busted his heart by the way.

I have a wtiness on hitting 5 out of five with my 35. 2 shots were touching. It is not that hard once you get the swing of it. You need to be able to qualify expert before being any good at 100 yards though. .40 does not drop at all up to 100 yards out of a Glock 35.



You obviously learned ballistics at a high school in either AL or MS, judging by that post.

Bullets begin to drop as they leave the muzzle....period.


And since when was hitting a sheet of paper at 100 yards a real feat?

Since when was it of any practical importance, either?


Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:36:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By red_on_black:
Having used reduced-power buck (both #1 and #4, 2-3/4", 12ga) to kill feral and nuisance animals, I know that even the lighter buck loads will penetrate hard bone (read: skull, shoulder, pelvis) and penetrate at least several inches into dense flesh. Does just fine at 25 yards on any living thing I've ever shot with it.

I've gotta second the , Cheeks.

Flame on.

(edited for spelling.)



Never said, shottys were ineffective, just that an accurate handgun is better. The pellets may hit something out past 25 yards, but the effectiveness will suffer greatly. Speed of shotgun pellets slow down like a cop's baton when the cop sees a camera, after they leave the barrel.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:37:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By cheeks:

Originally Posted By red_on_black:
Having used reduced-power buck (both #1 and #4, 2-3/4", 12ga) to kill feral and nuisance animals, I know that even the lighter buck loads will penetrate hard bone (read: skull, shoulder, pelvis) and penetrate at least several inches into dense flesh. Does just fine at 25 yards on any living thing I've ever shot with it.

I've gotta second the , Cheeks.

Flame on.

(edited for spelling.)



Never said, shottys were ineffective, just that an accurate handgun is better. The pellets may hit something out past 25 yards, but the effectiveness will suffer greatly. Speed of shotgun pellets slow down like a cop's baton when the cop sees a camera, after they leave the barrel.



At 20 feet they would do a little more than cause bumps in the head.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:40:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By cheeks:

Originally Posted By Ajax72:

Originally Posted By cheeks:
Better off with an accurate handgun. Shotguns are heavy, carry few rounds and are just better suited for bird hunting.



You take the accurate handgun, I'll take my 12 Ga., then you can come around my house late at night uninvited and trying to get in.



Edited for $#itty grammar.



Well, at 100 yards, I can put every round I fire from my Glock 35 on a 8.5x11" piece of paper. Your little shotty might get there, but it might sting me a little. My .40 is gonna puch through you.

Your scattergun is better a close range(within ten feet), but my pistola is more versitile.




Can you say "Shotgun slugs"?
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:40:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2005 10:43:14 AM EST by slidelock1]
".40 does not drop at all up to 100 yards out of a Glock 35."

I did not want to comment on this topic, but .40 out of my Glock starts to drop the moment it leaves the barrel.
Of course I went to high school and college in Alabama.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:41:49 AM EST


Nah, I can believe in a chance hit, OP. But I cannot believe that buck won't penetrate the cranium at close range. Too much first-hand varmint experience.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:43:47 AM EST
I seem to recall an incident where a man's goose-down coat stopped 00 Buckshot enough to make only a flesh wound and he was completely fine. It happened inside one room, like 10 feet away.

So I think it may be plausible that a screen door could have stopped the pellets enough.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:45:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By cheeks:
I counted the pellets and group size on the guy. 00 buck.

incident two remarks: I have the reports to prove it. Granted it was a lucky shot, but the .40 penetrated and killed the gangbanger. Busted his heart by the way.

I have a wtiness on hitting 5 out of five with my 35. 2 shots were touching. It is not that hard once you get the swing of it. You need to be able to qualify expert before being any good at 100 yards though. .40 does not drop at all up to 100 yards out of a Glock 35.



You obviously learned ballistics at a high school in either AL or MS, judging by that post.

Bullets begin to drop as they leave the muzzle....period.


And since when was hitting a sheet of paper at 100 yards a real feat?

Since when was it of any practical importance, either?





Ok, you know what I meant by it not dropping. My point of aim to get POA hits at 25 yards and 100 yards
are exactly the same. No holdover.


And since when was hitting a sheet of paper at 100 yards a real feat?

Since when was it of any practical importance, either?



Too many folks limit their handguns to 25 yards. Get good with a handgun, and you will be able to hit things at greater distance with repeatability. It is not a real feat, but being able to do it almost every shot is not something to look over.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:45:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By red_on_black:

Nah, I can believe in a chance hit, OP. But I cannot believe that buck won't penetrate the cranium at close range. Too much first-hand varmint experience.



I saw a deer killed at 25 yards with #2 steel shot once.



(useless, yeah, but since we're throwing out useless anecdotes, why not share.....)
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:48:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By cheeks:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By cheeks:
I counted the pellets and group size on the guy. 00 buck.

incident two remarks: I have the reports to prove it. Granted it was a lucky shot, but the .40 penetrated and killed the gangbanger. Busted his heart by the way.

I have a wtiness on hitting 5 out of five with my 35. 2 shots were touching. It is not that hard once you get the swing of it. You need to be able to qualify expert before being any good at 100 yards though. .40 does not drop at all up to 100 yards out of a Glock 35.



You obviously learned ballistics at a high school in either AL or MS, judging by that post.

Bullets begin to drop as they leave the muzzle....period.


And since when was hitting a sheet of paper at 100 yards a real feat?

Since when was it of any practical importance, either?





Ok, you know what I meant by it not dropping. My point of aim to get POA hits at 25 yards and 100 yards
are exactly the same. No holdover.


And since when was hitting a sheet of paper at 100 yards a real feat?

Since when was it of any practical importance, either?



Too many folks limit their handguns to 25 yards. Get good with a handgun, and you will be able to hit things at greater distance with repeatability. It is not a real feat, but being able to do it almost every shot is not something to look over.




*yawn*


I shoot handguns at 100 yards and beyond on an almost daily basis....you're preaching to the choir....like I said, it's no real feat.

As for as 'you know what I mean'.......sorry, I have no use for 'you know what I mean'. All I know is what you SAY and if you screw that up, don't expect to get taken seriously.

<---paging doublefeed to chime in here on the latter point.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:50:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2005 10:53:05 AM EST by pdg45acp]

Originally Posted By macro:
Something I have wondered about is, just how far out can a shotgun blast be considered effective.
A few major components here would be gauge, shot selection, and choke.

........................................



I had kind of a shotgun eye opener at our last 3 gun match. I don't know if you are familiar with a Texas Star... here's a vid of someone shooting one with a handgun.

Texas Star

A 12 ga improved cyl shooting federal 2 ¾", 3dram eq., 1 1/8 oz, 8 shot... Will "NOT" clear the steel plates off a Texas Star at 18 yards, even when the plate is in the center of the pattern. Even 6 and 4 shot had problems doing this out of an improved cyl. It takes a full choke before non-magnum shot shells could even begin to knock the plates off.

I was shocked... I've been a shotgun guy all my life... If this had been a real defensive situation... the bad guy would have eventually bled to death... but not before he could have emptied his Glock into the good guy... several times.

Just to put this in perspective, 9mm WWB will knock the steel plates off a Texas star every time at 25 yards.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:52:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dragracer_Art:
Hey O P...

Not to stray off topic, but did my "care package" arrive safely ?


IM inbound.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 10:52:11 AM EST
I can Bust Clays at 50 Yards with #7 Shot.. Do I get a Trophy?
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 11:00:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By cheeks:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:

Originally Posted By cheeks:
I counted the pellets and group size on the guy. 00 buck.

incident two remarks: I have the reports to prove it. Granted it was a lucky shot, but the .40 penetrated and killed the gangbanger. Busted his heart by the way.

I have a wtiness on hitting 5 out of five with my 35. 2 shots were touching. It is not that hard once you get the swing of it. You need to be able to qualify expert before being any good at 100 yards though. .40 does not drop at all up to 100 yards out of a Glock 35.



You obviously learned ballistics at a high school in either AL or MS, judging by that post.

Bullets begin to drop as they leave the muzzle....period.


And since when was hitting a sheet of paper at 100 yards a real feat?

Since when was it of any practical importance, either?





Ok, you know what I meant by it not dropping. My point of aim to get POA hits at 25 yards and 100 yards
are exactly the same. No holdover.


And since when was hitting a sheet of paper at 100 yards a real feat?

Since when was it of any practical importance, either?



Too many folks limit their handguns to 25 yards. Get good with a handgun, and you will be able to hit things at greater distance with repeatability. It is not a real feat, but being able to do it almost every shot is not something to look over.




*yawn*


I shoot handguns at 100 yards and beyond on an almost daily basis....you're preaching to the choir....like I said, it's no real feat.

As for as 'you know what I mean'.......sorry, I have no use for 'you know what I mean'. All I know is what you SAY and if you screw that up, don't expect to get taken seriously.

<---paging doublefeed to chime in here on the latter point.



Most everyone knows a bullet drops as it leaves the barrel. I was speaking of "Not enough to make two shits" difference in 20 and 100 yards drop.

Folks start to criticize others and correct them on minor shit when they are losing an arguement. So, I did not take you seriously either when you started being technical and a smarty pants about my less than technical response to about the ballistics of a handgun at 100 yards

So, yes a bullet does drop when it leaves the barrel. But a .40 at 100 yards is not enough to even notive when fired with open sights.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 11:04:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2005 11:05:52 AM EST by arowneragain]
heh, heh....



edit:

losing an arguement?



Can you read?

Link Posted: 3/16/2005 11:10:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2005 11:21:37 AM EST by cheeks]

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
heh, heh....



edit:

losing an arguement?



Can you read?




I guess this is all you have to say after getting a spanking. Just laugh it off eh? No time for a more indepth response huh? Oh, that's right, you need to clean your shotgun from all the long range shooting that you have been doing.



edited to add the animation
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 11:12:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:

Originally Posted By cheeks:
Well, at 100 yards, I can put every round I fire from my Glock 35 on a 8.5x11" piece of paper. Your little shotty might get there, but it might sting me a little. My .40 is gonna puch through you.

Your scattergun is better a close range(within ten feet), but my pistola is more versitile.

Not planning on breaking in and I am not a criminal.




You must be a world class shooter.



But you don't know much about shotguns.



He sure don't. I'll take the shotgun over a pistol anyday.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 11:15:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/16/2005 11:16:54 AM EST by IAMLEGEND]
Interesting and relevant.

Gunsite

"This five-day course will give you command of one of the least-understood weapons systems available. The shotgun can act as a breaching device, a gas-delivery system or an effective fight-stopper out to, and beyond 100 yards. The shotgun’s flexibility demands a special set of manipulation skills, making it a “thinking person’s” weapons system. "

"You’ll have plenty of indoor and outdoor simulators where targets range from five to 120 yards."

The thinking person bit is why it appeals to some people I guess. Maybe the effective part, too.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 11:17:21 AM EST
Oh, I forgot about another angle to the shotgun bashing.
They(shotguns) are designed for either bird hunting, or folks that can't shoot. I guess that is why dove hunters and cops use them.

Seriously though, Shotguns are specialized weapons. In close snapshot encounters are where they shine. Anything other than that, and you are probably going to lose. I mean look at the title of the thread, even the poster has doubts about the "Effectiveness" of the shotty.
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 11:17:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By cheeks:

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
heh, heh....



edit:

losing an arguement?



Can you read?




I guess this is all you have to say after getting a spanking. Just laugh it off eh? No time for a more indepth response huh? Oh, that's right, you need to clean your shotgun from all the long range shooting that you have been doing.



I probably shouldn't respond....but you seem fun to play with.



Anyway....where did you 'spank' me?


Best I can tell, you got defensive when I called you on your drivel about 'no drop'.

Like I said, don't expect any respect around here if you can't get the basics of physics correct.

'You know what I mean' might cut it, if this was, say, fenderguitars.com, and you were discussing ballistics.

As it is, since this is a firearms-related board, some of us have this crazy notion that people should learn the proper use of firearms-related terminology, and physics, before they make outlandish claims and expect to be taken seriously.

Anyway......reckon how much holdover there would be for your .40 at 300 yards, if it was zeroed at, say, 100?

(use whatever load you wish to quote ballistics for....your choice)

Link Posted: 3/16/2005 11:19:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
You obviously learned ballistics at a high school in either AL or MS, judging by that post.

Bullets begin to drop as they leave the muzzle....period.



. if you had said bullets begin to be effected by gravity as soon as they leave the muzzle, you'd be right. but since drop is commonly referred to as something moving towards the ground, all i have to do is shoot up wards with significant angle and the bullet won't begin to "drop" until it reaches it's apogee.

for example: straight up the bullet will not start to "drop" until it reaches its apogee. but it will be constantly being accelerated towards the earth from the moment it leaves the muzzle.

Link Posted: 3/16/2005 11:20:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
Interesting and relevant.

Gunsite

"This five-day course will give you command of one of the least-understood weapons systems available. The shotgun can act as a breaching device, a gas-delivery system or an effective fight-stopper out to, and beyond 100 yards. The shotgun’s flexibility demands a special set of manipulation skills, making it a “thinking person’s” weapons system. "

"You’ll have plenty of indoor and outdoor simulators where targets range from five to 120 yards."

The thinking person bit is why it appeals to some people I guess. Maybe the effective part, too.



Wow, Gunsite said it, so it has to be true. Adds another class for them to rake in more cash.lol
Link Posted: 3/16/2005 11:21:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By cheeks:

Originally Posted By IAMLEGEND:
Interesting and relevant.

Gunsite

"This five-day course will give you command of one of the least-understood weapons systems available. The shotgun can act as a breaching device, a gas-delivery system or an effective fight-stopper out to, and beyond 100 yards. The shotgun’s flexibility demands a special set of manipulation skills, making it a “thinking person’s” weapons system. "

"You’ll have plenty of indoor and outdoor simulators where targets range from five to 120 yards."

The thinking person bit is why it appeals to some people I guess. Maybe the effective part, too.



Wow, Gunsite said it, so it has to be true. Adds another class for them to rake in more cash.lol



Well, I usually rank it higher than "internet say-so". But like I said earlier; I'm no expert...either.

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