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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 9/16/2004 8:21:57 PM EST
I was on a seven mile run for cross country practice, and with about a mile left this occurred to me.

Jobs leaving the US is a good thing!

It might affect unemployment slightly, but that allows these workers to work for a new business in the US. The profits of overseas businesses will come home, even in the labor expenses go overseas. This gives the US more wealth without using up very many of its workers. These workers, as previously stated, are now free to work in the US. In fact, the ideal situation would be one that employed everyone in the US (making sure that we were self-sufficient), with MANY people owning an overseas business (in varied countries) that just had its administrative side here. In fact, the only negative here is the small number of people that are put out of their job when the actual leave occurs.

I'm sure this is already some established economic theory, but I have never heard of it. I've always heard complaint after complaint about businesses leaving the US. Also, what kind of unemployment rate are we currently looking at?

So...is it BS or not?
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 8:23:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 8:24:17 PM EST
Correction, outsourcing is a good thing. Outsourcing crappy jobs LOWERS the costs of goods.


People that don't get this are often union members because they get upset when someone tells them there $25/hr job is actually only worth $5/hr

Sgtar15
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 8:26:03 PM EST
You can't have a succesful economy if you don't export some jobs.


It is really a Win Win Win Win Lose situation.

sure there is some unemployment, but what happens when we (US) start keeping all of the jobs here?


Your tee shirt you bought is going to cost you sixty bucks.


My deal is that if you REALLY TRULY WANT A JOB, YOU CAN PROBABLY GET ONE.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 8:27:40 PM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Correction, outsourcing is a good thing. Outsourcing crappy jobs LOWERS the costs of goods.


People that don't get this are often union members because they get upset when someone tells them there $25/hr job is actually only worth $5/hr

Sgtar15



Oh man, that makes them mad. But unskilled labor just isn't that tough to have some 13 year old Mexican do.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 8:30:38 PM EST
my tee shirts already cost $60
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 8:41:50 PM EST
I'm not sure I truly grasp this out-sourcing shit. But here is how I see it:

1. The jobs that are out-sourced are the lower end jobs that nobody in the US wants to begin with because they don't pay enough to satisfy the American worker's need for big $$$$

2. The more of these lower end jobs that are sent out of the country, the less stuff for Mexican immigrants to do, hopefully reducing the number that illegally come here seeking work.

3. Out-sourcing can cut costs making products we buy cheaper, thus leaving us with more money to spend on other things, thus boosting the economy

4. The fact that unemployment is relatively low (in the 5% range I believe), it apparently isn't effecting our ability to find jobs. And considering that most of the jobs out-sourced are lower end positions, that should mean that more people have better jobs here than they did several years ago.

I just find it a bit humorous that democrats have started blaming Bush for out-sourcing when this has been a trend that's been going on for years. Then the left bitches about Americans being forced to work at fast food joints for minimum wage because Bush has sent all the jobs overseas. Yet the jobs out-sourced that they are bitching about pay about the same as working at a fast food joint. So on one hand they are bitching, saying the good jobs are being sent overseas. Then they are bitching because they say these minimum wage jobs are all Bush is creating at home. Hmmm. So to simplify this, the left hates Bush and bitches because lower paying jobs are being out-sourced. Then when more lower paying jobs are created here, they bitch at Bush because lower paying jobs are created. I think it's safe to say they just like to bitch, period!

-CH
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 7:39:12 PM EST

I'm not sure I truly grasp this out-sourcing shit. But here is how I see it:

1. The jobs that are out-sourced are the lower end jobs that nobody in the US wants to begin with because they don't pay enough to satisfy the American worker's need for big $$$$

2. The more of these lower end jobs that are sent out of the country, the less stuff for Mexican immigrants to do, hopefully reducing the number that illegally come here seeking work.

3. Out-sourcing can cut costs making products we buy cheaper, thus leaving us with more money to spend on other things, thus boosting the economy

4. The fact that unemployment is relatively low (in the 5% range I believe), it apparently isn't effecting our ability to find jobs. And considering that most of the jobs out-sourced are lower end positions, that should mean that more people have better jobs here than they did several years ago.

I just find it a bit humorous that democrats have started blaming Bush for out-sourcing when this has been a trend that's been going on for years. Then the left bitches about Americans being forced to work at fast food joints for minimum wage because Bush has sent all the jobs overseas. Yet the jobs out-sourced that they are bitching about pay about the same as working at a fast food joint. So on one hand they are bitching, saying the good jobs are being sent overseas. Then they are bitching because they say these minimum wage jobs are all Bush is creating at home. Hmmm. So to simplify this, the left hates Bush and bitches because lower paying jobs are being out-sourced. Then when more lower paying jobs are created here, they bitch at Bush because lower paying jobs are created. I think it's safe to say they just like to bitch, period!



+1 (this one's for you, man)

Patrick
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 7:50:27 PM EST
You won't have a useful thought for another 13 or 14 years, so go chase girls.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 7:57:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Correction, outsourcing is a good thing. Outsourcing crappy jobs LOWERS the costs of goods.


People that don't get this are often union members because they get upset when someone tells them there $25/hr job is actually only worth $5/hr

Sgtar15



DINGDINGDINGDING!

Winne­r!

Not bad for a Catholic............ JUST KIDDING!
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 8:10:53 PM EST
The problem with outsourcing is that it USED TO BE just the crappy jobs - like textile manufacturing, etc.

But, now, as education levels around the world are rising, and information technology infrastructure is being established in countries that were third-world shitholes or east block shitholes twenty years ago, lots of jobs that are NOT crappy are being outsourced.

That's when it can become a problem.

As an example, I know an executive at a large company, and they are pretty much moving the bulk of all their global HR staff to Hungary (or Romania - forgot which former communist country he said). So, hundreds of people in their Texas headquarters will be canned, and all the operations will be moved to eastern europe. The workers they can hire locally are JUST as well trained, as JUST as qualified and competent, but MUCH cheaper. (Eventually, those eastern european workers will probably be fired, and their jobs will be given to workers just as well trained and qualified - but much cheaper - in some even crappier country that will have developed their infrastructure by then.)


However, if we can keep developing new industries, ideas, technologies, markets and products - then outsourcing shouldn't really be a problem.



That's just my opinion - but this is not something I really know that much about.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 8:11:19 PM EST

The expenses of overseas labor will be paid to them overseas, but the amount of money that the government generates off of payroll taxes will be lost. In the state of NJ, that is the 2nd highest revenue generating source. The first being income tax, which will also be lost. Imagine who will have to make up for the lack of tax revenue that will be lost. It'll be YOU and ME!!!

If it were only service type jobs it would'nt bother me that much. However, we are losing our manufacturing capabilities at an alarming rate. Our manufacturing prowess is what built this country. That was what allowed us to win WW2. MORE tanks, MORE rifles, MORE planes, MORE men.

I heard a story about a company up in the Northwest that was expanding an older section of railroad track. When they took a look at what needed to be replaced they realized that not a single person in the company knew how to do work on tracks that were only 30 yrs old. They had to call guys who had been retired for 20+yrs, and bring them on as consultants to get the job done.

When a great civilization such as ours deals away their domestic labor, they collapse. It happened in Egypt, Rome, and if it continues down this path, it will be the demise of our country as well.

The Chinese government is supplementing factories buying power with the intent of driving American businesses into bankruptcy. Eventually, almost all of our products will be made overseas, putting us at the mercy of people who by rights should be viewed as our enemy.

It may be cheaper in the short term, but what happens when we no longer have much of a say in the costs that foreign exporters decide to charge us. Just look at Mideast Oil, OPEC sets the price and we pay it at the pump.

I'd rather pay a little more and keep it MADE IN USA, than have to buy an American Flag that was made in China.

Link Posted: 9/17/2004 8:20:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2004 8:25:23 PM EST by BlammO]

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
I'm not sure I truly grasp this out-sourcing shit. But here is how I see it:

1. The jobs that are out-sourced are the lower end jobs that nobody in the US wants to begin with because they don't pay enough to satisfy the American worker's need for big $$$$

2. The more of these lower end jobs that are sent out of the country, the less stuff for Mexican immigrants to do, hopefully reducing the number that illegally come here seeking work.

3. Out-sourcing can cut costs making products we buy cheaper, thus leaving us with more money to spend on other things, thus boosting the economy

4. The fact that unemployment is relatively low (in the 5% range I believe), it apparently isn't effecting our ability to find jobs. And considering that most of the jobs out-sourced are lower end positions, that should mean that more people have better jobs here than they did several years ago.

I just find it a bit humorous that democrats have started blaming Bush for out-sourcing when this has been a trend that's been going on for years. Then the left bitches about Americans being forced to work at fast food joints for minimum wage because Bush has sent all the jobs overseas. Yet the jobs out-sourced that they are bitching about pay about the same as working at a fast food joint. So on one hand they are bitching, saying the good jobs are being sent overseas. Then they are bitching because they say these minimum wage jobs are all Bush is creating at home. Hmmm. So to simplify this, the left hates Bush and bitches because lower paying jobs are being out-sourced. Then when more lower paying jobs are created here, they bitch at Bush because lower paying jobs are created. I think it's safe to say they just like to bitch, period!

-CH



Without disagreeing with statement #1, I want to say that a significant percentage of the jobs that are being outsourced overseas are high tech jobs such as programming. Most US-based programmers probably wouldn't consider their jobs to be the "crappy" ones. However, what most of the people who are at-risk don't seem to realize is that the jobs once considered to be highly skilled and specialized (especially programming), are now standardized and systematized. Those jobs are increasingly becoming commodity positions and that's what makes them ripe for outsourcing.

I also observe that the majority of the workforce is motivated by a paycheck. These are the people who lack passion and creativity. These are the ones whose jobs are going to India and Pakistan. Those who have a drive to succeed or to make a difference are the ones who will see when their livelihood is threatened by commoditization and will adapt before they become extinct. Or they'll already be moving on before that time comes.

While I find a lot of outsourcing to be personally annoying, I also find it difficult to feel sympathy for people who have allowed themselves to become simple commodities. Success demands differentiation.

ETA: Regarding point #2, I don't think that the jobs that are outsourcable to other countries are the same ones that Mexicans are coming into the country to fill.

Also, DWFAN hit the nail on the head. The real problem with outsourcing is that it undermines our national self-sufficiency.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 11:21:29 PM EST
We as a nation need to be self-reliant as much as possible.Those supply lines from other nations will probably be severed in times of international conflict, and I hate relying on outside sources for anything. Offer them as an alternative for competition if need be, but there should be a domestic source for everything used in every aspect of US life.
Link Posted: 9/17/2004 11:44:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Correction, outsourcing is a good thing. Outsourcing crappy jobs LOWERS the costs of goods.


People that don't get this are often union members because they get upset when someone tells them there $25/hr job is actually only worth $5/hr

Sgtar15



$25 an hr in pay and another $8-10 an hr that the business shells out in bennies and extras that are part of the Union contract .

I won't argue the whole Union , Non union issue , but instead I give you a story I heard
at my local chamber of commerce meeting .

There was a Local contractor that bid on building renovation , the job went union and he had to pay Union scale , but that’s not the best part . The best part was that it required a laborer be hired to do basically nothing ............ But Union rules said that no one could work alone because the site was considered hazardous so he had to hire two , OK fine , he hires two Union laborers . A week after they started he got a visit by a Union rep that informed him that since he had two Union laborers he had to have a shop steward for them
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 1:48:53 AM EST
There was an article in the Economist (IIRC) a few weeks back that discussed outsourcing in the US. According to the author, the US has more jobs "insourced" from overseas companies than jobs outsourced from US companies. Probably not something that one will hear from the mainstream media, but I'll put more credit in what that magazine has to say than just about anything written.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 2:10:42 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2004 2:14:33 AM EST by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 2:16:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Correction, outsourcing is a good thing. Outsourcing crappy jobs LOWERS the costs of goods.


People that don't get this are often union members because they get upset when someone tells them there $25/hr job is actually only worth $5/hr

Sgtar15



You truly are amazing -- yes it is a 5 $ an hour job in Bumfuc China, where a months rent is 5 dollars.

Go get some more sleep.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 12:06:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By DWFAN:
The expenses of overseas labor will be paid to them overseas, but the amount of money that the government generates off of payroll taxes will be lost. In the state of NJ, that is the 2nd highest revenue generating source. The first being income tax, which will also be lost. Imagine who will have to make up for the lack of tax revenue that will be lost. It'll be YOU and ME!!!



The rest of what you said I more or less agree with, but I don't know about this point.

The taxes you're talking about would only be lost if there was widespread unemployment - which outsourcing doesn't seem to cause. It would just free them up to move on to new businesses that would probably fluctuate depending on how much of a demand there was for work.

It seems that a lot of economic things are self-healing, and that it'd be hard to destroy an economy (other than by government interference).
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 12:27:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
The thing I like about U.S. plants in Mexico is that maybe some Mexicans will actually stay in Mexico.



Amen brother! Actually, all they would have to do is tax their paychecks like ours are and they would all scatter back to Mexico in no time flat..........

Link Posted: 9/18/2004 12:41:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 12:44:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
The thing I like about U.S. plants in Mexico is that maybe some Mexicans will actually stay in Mexico.



The report from Texas is in: That is not happening. 3000 a night are coming across. It truly is an invasion.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 12:47:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
I'm not sure I truly grasp this out-sourcing shit. But here is how I see it:

1. The jobs that are out-sourced are the lower end jobs that nobody in the US wants to begin with because they don't pay enough to satisfy the American worker's need for big $$$$-CH



Not anymore. High-end jobs are being outsourced too. Outsource a $20,000 a year job to someone willing to work for $5000 and you save $15,000. Outsource a $100,000 to someone willing to work for $20,000 and you save $80,000.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 12:56:50 PM EST
If the women would get back in the kitchen (where they belong) there would be no unemployment.

what do you think?
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 1:04:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By TWHaz:
If the women would get back in the kitchen (where they belong) there would be no unemployment.

what do you think?



Equal rights are cool with me.

However, unlike 'Animal Farm,' no one should be more equal.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 1:09:40 PM EST
Outsourcing our Country's jobs is a tightrope act. It might work out good like some have outlined. I don't think you can judge its future impact effectively by looking at how it is working today though, at least not completely.

Outsourcing is still growing. Sooner or later it might displace more US jobs than can be replaced. If the people who's jobs are going overseas can't find a similar paying job then what do you suppose the effect on the economy will be? If a large portion of our population suffers unemployment or a significant decrease in pay you can be sure that will travel right up the economic chain to the middle-level and high end jobs too. These people were buying new cars, new homes, professional services, consumable goods, etc. When their income drops, who's going to buy them? The Chinese National laborer making 3 dollars a week? So what's going to happen to the industries and professionals that depend on US factory workers when all the factory jobs are gone and those factory workers who were making $25 an hour are now making $6 an hour as a clerk at Walmart selling chinese made goods?
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 1:15:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By H46Driver:
There was an article in the Economist (IIRC) a few weeks back that discussed outsourcing in the US. According to the author, the US has more jobs "insourced" from overseas companies than jobs outsourced from US companies. Probably not something that one will hear from the mainstream media, but I'll put more credit in what that magazine has to say than just about anything written.



Would you happen to have an online link to the article? It sounds pretty interesting.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 1:20:24 PM EST
The only thing that REALLY pisses me off about out sourcing is when they send their customer

call centers over to India or wherever, AND I CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THE HELL THEY ARE

SAYING.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 1:23:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By Botch:
The only thing that REALLY pisses me off about out sourcing is when they send their customer

call centers over to India or wherever, AND I CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THE HELL THEY ARE

SAYING.



Yes, I hate this. The capitalistic form of retribution is to not buy from them.

I currently own a Dell computer, but won't buy another one. Their tech support is useless.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 1:24:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2004 1:25:20 PM EST by TWHaz]

Originally Posted By Sniper_Wolfe:

Originally Posted By TWHaz:
If the women would get back in the kitchen (where they belong) there would be no unemployment.

what do you think?



Equal rights are cool with me.

However, unlike 'Animal Farm,' no one should be more equal.



It is not about equallity, it is about the family structure.

My wife work when she was 17 till she married me at 35. She said she woukld go crazy if did not have a job. after we decided we would try to get by with just my wages for a year and see how it went.

We had to cut back on some spending.

Now she is happy, me and the boys are well taken care of and all is well with mom at home.

Nothing like supper on the table when you get home and a well rested wife when you go to bed

If you can, try it.

sorry for the temporary hijack of the thread.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 1:26:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By TWHaz:

Originally Posted By Sniper_Wolfe:

Originally Posted By TWHaz:
If the women would get back in the kitchen (where they belong) there would be no unemployment.

what do you think?



Equal rights are cool with me.

However, unlike 'Animal Farm,' no one should be more equal.



It is not about equallity, it is about the family structure.

My wife work when she was 17 till she married me at 35. She said she woukld go crazy if did not have a job. after we decided we would try to get by with just my wages for a year and see how it went.

We had to cut back on some spending.

Now she is happy, me and the boys are well taken care of and all is well with mom at home.

Nothing like supper on the table when you get home and a well rested wife when you go to bed

If you can, try it.



If your wife is cool with it, that's great. But the type of societal notions that 'expect' it (although that's going out of style now) are wrong.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 1:33:56 PM EST
Job outsourcing starts at WalMart, Circuit City, and The Gap. People want to buy cheaper goods, even if they aren't quite as good. I am sure that most of the employees at the GM plant in Arlington, Texas, shop for bargains at Wally World. When someone passes over Wranglers and buys Levis or some other foreign make, the jobs at Wrangler get that much harder to keep in rural Oklahoma.

If you are a businessman, you have little control over many of your inputs. The government is going to tax you at the rate the government sets. If you are buying raw materials, the market will set the price (have you seen the cost of steel lately? We are exporting steel to China). Labor is often the most expensive input and then one in which you can most likely cut costs. When someone gets big enough to replace some workers with conveyors from Arkansas, the demand for low skilled workers decreases. To that worker, it doesn't matter that his job essentially went to Arkansas in the form of skate wheel conveyer or to China in the form of cheaper labor. It is gone to him.

Americans are all too often lazy workers and totally lacking in appreciation for their jobs and the life style it provides them. Workers in the Third World aren't quite so arrogant.

If we all had to depend upon our jobs to keep from being hungry and homeless, we would keep more jobs in America. However, the welfare state makes sure we will all be fat, dumb and happy even if we stop working.

LBJ's Great Society continues to rain destruction on America. In addition to the $5 trillion spent on the GS, I wonder what has been the cost of its destruction of the work ethic on too many Americans?
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 1:38:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By Mahatma8Rice:
Americans are all too often lazy workers and totally lacking in appreciation for their jobs and the life style it provides them. Workers in the Third World aren't quite so arrogant.



I am pretty sure that I remember hearing that American workers have the highest production per man hour. Can anyone confirm/deny? I'm sure that if it's true, it has more to do with ingenuity than work ethic...but even at that, work smarter, not harder...
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 1:42:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By cyanide:

Originally Posted By sgtar15:
Correction, outsourcing is a good thing. Outsourcing crappy jobs LOWERS the costs of goods.


People that don't get this are often union members because they get upset when someone tells them there $25/hr job is actually only worth $5/hr

Sgtar15



You truly are amazing -- yes it is a 5 $ an hour job in Bumfuc China, where a months rent is 5 dollars.

Go get some more sleep.



No, in many cases here in the US. Putting widget A into slot B is not skilled labor, nor is 99% of assembly line work. Hell, I know of union plants where the janitors start out at $26 an hour or better.

And they are not worth it.

If you do a job, and the union blackmails the company into paying you $25, when there are people who can do you job equally as well in the same location willing to do so for $10 an hour, then that job is worth $10 an hour.

It is amazing how people think the free market shouldn't apply to labor. If they were made to spend thier money under the same rules the earned it they would scream bloody murder.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 2:06:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sniper_Wolfe:

Originally Posted By Mahatma8Rice:
Americans are all too often lazy workers and totally lacking in appreciation for their jobs and the life style it provides them. Workers in the Third World aren't quite so arrogant.



I am pretty sure that I remember hearing that American workers have the highest production per man hour. Can anyone confirm/deny? I'm sure that if it's true, it has more to do with ingenuity than work ethic...but even at that, work smarter, not harder...



Link
US workers put in the longest hours on the job in industrialized nations, clocking up nearly 2,000 hours in 1997, almost two weeks more than their counterparts in Japan, where hours worked per year have been gradually declining since 1980, according to a new statistical study of global labour trends published by the International Labour Office (ILO).*

On to outsourcing - Not only do we lose the tax base, but the after tax $ are not being spent here in the US, they are spent on some foregin economy.

Link Posted: 9/18/2004 2:20:32 PM EST

If you do a job, and the union blackmails the company into paying you $25, when there are people who can do you job equally as well in the same location willing to do so for $10 an hour, then that job is worth $10 an hour.



I'll respectfully but streniously disagree with that. The job is worth whatever someone will pay to have it done. Basic rule of economics.
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