Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Site Notices
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/29/2005 7:03:12 AM EDT
...and how much would it cost? Just how much bang for the buck, so to speak, do you get?

When you get right down to it, I guess what I am really asking is Tannerite more or less explosive than TNT.

Could you even reliably detonate that volume of Tannerite from a single shot (not that I would want to be the one doing the shooting....)
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:04:01 AM EDT
IBTL, we don't need this kind of crap here!
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:05:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Combatvet:
IBTL, we don't need this kind of crap here!



WTF?
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:07:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/29/2005 7:16:28 AM EDT by raven]
The Texas City disaster, 17,000,000 lbs of ammonium nitrate loaded in a ship bound for Europe that exploded in 1947 in a fire, was estimated to be a 3-4 kt explosion.

Remember, the kiloton/megaton metric is estimated by TNT which is more powerful than ammonium nitrate.

A third of that'd be 5-6m lbs of AN. How much does that cost? No idea. But it's a pretty cheap chemical.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:08:16 AM EDT
Your kidding right?
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:14:31 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jaeger_1969:
Your kidding right?



Let's not get all uppity, people, just an acedemic question here...put the tinfoil away...
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:15:36 AM EDT
A better calculation would be to figure out how far away you have to be to set it off and survive.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:19:40 AM EDT
Some of you guys are a little too paranoid. It’s just a question.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:20:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:
The Texas City disaster, 17,000,000 lbs of ammonium nitrate loaded in a ship bound for Europe that exploded in 1947 in a fire, was estimated to be a 3-4 kt explosion.

Remember, the kiloton/megaton metric is estimated by TNT which is more powerful than ammonium nitrate.



So let's say it's somewhere between 4,250,000 and 5,666,666 million pounds.

That would be between 425,000 and 566,666 10 pound cases from Dan Tanner.

Let's assume each case costs $89 each. (I'm sure Dan would give a quantity discount on this buy though).

You're looking spending between $37,825,000 and $50,433,274 to generate a 1 Kiloton blast.

It would probably be cheaper to buy a 747, fly it to Russia, buy a blackmarket nuke, and fly back here.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:21:22 AM EDT
I am confident that you could not properly equal the explosive effect of Tannerite with TNT.

Tannerite is a Low-order explosives (LE). LE’s create a subsonic explosion [below 3,300 feet per second] and lack High Explosive’s over-pressurization wave. Examples of LE include pipe bombs, gunpowder, and most pure petroleum-based bombs such as Molotov cocktails or aircraft improvised as guided missiles.

TNT is a High Explosive. (HE) is a compound or mixture which, when initiated, is capable of sustaining a detonation shockwave to produce a powerful blast effect. A detonation is the powerful explosive effect caused by the propagation of a high-speed shockwave through a high explosive compound or mixture. During the process of detonation, the high explosive is largely decomposed into hot, rapidly expanding gas.

A chemical explosive is a compound or a mixture of compounds which, when subjected to heat, impact, friction, or shock, undergoes very rapid, self-propagating, heat- producing decomposition. This decomposition produces gases that exert tremendous pressures as they expand at the high temperature of the reaction. The work done by an explosive depends primarily on the amount of heat given off during the explosion.

The term detonation indicates that the reaction is moving through the explosive faster than the speed of sound in the unreacted explosive; whereas, deflagration indicates a slower reaction (rapid burning). A high explosive like TNT will detonate; a low explosive like Tannerite will deflagrate.

The confined detonation velocity of commercial explosives varies from 4,000 to 25,000 fps. The detonation velocity of low explosive such as Tannerite or rifle powder is in the 100's of feet per second.
Do you see the order of magnitude difference between the two types of explosives?

In conclusion Zippy, I don’t think it’s realistically possible to confine enough Tannerite in an enclosed space to create a really large explosion. The reason is, that even if you detonated four cornors of your cache at the same instant, the slower deflagration of Tannerite would throw out large masses of unexploded Tannerite without setting it off.

If you want to post other questions on explosives that don’t violate the COC, I will try to answer them.

Cheers!
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:22:47 AM EDT
Jeez guys, all he asked was how tannerite stacks up to TNT, not where to find radioactive material for a homemade reactor.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:22:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By michaelj1978:

Originally Posted By raven:
The Texas City disaster, 17,000,000 lbs of ammonium nitrate loaded in a ship bound for Europe that exploded in 1947 in a fire, was estimated to be a 3-4 kt explosion.

Remember, the kiloton/megaton metric is estimated by TNT which is more powerful than ammonium nitrate.



So let's say it's somewhere between 4,250,000 and 5,666,666 million pounds.

That would be between 425,000 and 566,666 10 pound cases from Dan Tanner.

Let's assume each case costs $89 each. (I'm sure Dan would give a quantity discount on this buy though).

You're looking spending between $37,825,000 and $50,433,274 to generate a 1 Kiloton blast.

It would probably be cheaper to buy a 747, fly it to Russia, buy a blackmarket nuke, and fly back here.



Back here?

I was assuming the hypothetical plan involved shipping the tannerite to the middle east somewhere to conduct the experiment.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:23:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By michaelj1978:

Originally Posted By raven:
The Texas City disaster, 17,000,000 lbs of ammonium nitrate loaded in a ship bound for Europe that exploded in 1947 in a fire, was estimated to be a 3-4 kt explosion.

Remember, the kiloton/megaton metric is estimated by TNT which is more powerful than ammonium nitrate.



So let's say it's somewhere between 4,250,000 and 5,666,666 million pounds.

That would be between 425,000 and 566,666 10 pound cases from Dan Tanner.

Let's assume each case costs $89 each. (I'm sure Dan would give a quantity discount on this buy though).

You're looking spending between $37,825,000 and $50,433,274 to generate a 1 Kiloton blast.

It would probably be cheaper to buy a 747, fly it to Russia, buy a blackmarket nuke, and fly back here.



Or buy it from a chemical plant in India or China. If it cost more than $1 a pound, I'd be shocked. But the Texas City AN was dehydrated and explosive-grade, even though it was earmarked for fertilizer.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:25:07 AM EDT
I'm curious as to how you would be able to initiate the detonation and be able to ensure that all of the tannerite explodes and isn't just kicked out and splattered all over the place like a lot of low order explosions tend to do. Just because you pile it on doesn't mean it's all going to propogate.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:26:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
I'm curious as to how you would be able to initiate the detonation and be able to ensure that all of the tannerite explodes and isn't just kicked out and splattered all over the place like a lot of low order explosions tend to do. Just because you pile it on doesn't mean it's all going to propogate.



Use a high explosive booster charge like RDX, TNT, etc. That's what McVeigh did.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:26:34 AM EDT
The real question is..... WHO's GONNA MIX IT?
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:29:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FNBrowning:
I am confident that you could not properly equal the explosive effect of Tannerite with TNT.

Tannerite is a Low-order explosives (LE). LE’s create a subsonic explosion [below 3,300 feet per second] and lack High Explosive’s over-pressurization wave. Examples of LE include pipe bombs, gunpowder, and most pure petroleum-based bombs such as Molotov cocktails or aircraft improvised as guided missiles.

TNT is a High Explosive. (HE) is a compound or mixture which, when initiated, is capable of sustaining a detonation shockwave to produce a powerful blast effect. A detonation is the powerful explosive effect caused by the propagation of a high-speed shockwave through a high explosive compound or mixture. During the process of detonation, the high explosive is largely decomposed into hot, rapidly expanding gas.

A chemical explosive is a compound or a mixture of compounds which, when subjected to heat, impact, friction, or shock, undergoes very rapid, self-propagating, heat- producing decomposition. This decomposition produces gases that exert tremendous pressures as they expand at the high temperature of the reaction. The work done by an explosive depends primarily on the amount of heat given off during the explosion.

The term detonation indicates that the reaction is moving through the explosive faster than the speed of sound in the unreacted explosive; whereas, deflagration indicates a slower reaction (rapid burning). A high explosive like TNT will detonate; a low explosive like Tannerite will deflagrate.

The confined detonation velocity of commercial explosives varies from 4,000 to 25,000 fps. The detonation velocity of low explosive such as Tannerite or rifle powder is in the 100's of feet per second.
Do you see the order of magnitude difference between the two types of explosives?

In conclusion Zippy, I don’t think it’s realistically possible to confine enough Tannerite in an enclosed space to create a really large explosion. The reason is, that even if you detonated four cornors of your cache at the same instant, the slower deflagration of Tannerite would throw out large masses of unexploded Tannerite without setting it off.

If you want to post other questions on explosives that don’t violate the COC, I will try to answer them.

Cheers!



Ya see, this is why I love arfcom...there are some smart, albeit crazy, fuckers here!!
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:30:23 AM EDT
Ever see the video of the Pepcon Plant Explosion outside Henderson (I think), NV? I don't know what they estimated its size to be but Ammonium Perchlorate makes big boom!
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:32:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cms81586:
Ever see the video of the Pepcon Plant Explosion outside Henderson (I think), NV? I don't know what they estimated its size to be but Ammonium Perchlorate makes big boom!



I heard about it. I thought it was the Aerotech plant.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:33:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cool-e:
A better calculation would be to figure out how far away you have to be to set it off and survive.



Thats easy:
500LBS Minimum 1,500 ft
1,000LBS Minimum 1,750 ft
4,000LBS Minimun 2,750ft
10,000LBS Minimum 3,750ft
30,000LBS Minimum 6,500ft
60,000LBS Minimum 7,000ft
To put this info into prespective a semi trailer would be needed for 60,000 LBS and a compact sedan for 500 LBS of explosive.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:34:38 AM EDT
87 bottles!
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:34:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
I'm curious as to how you would be able to initiate the detonation and be able to ensure that all of the tannerite explodes and isn't just kicked out and splattered all over the place like a lot of low order explosions tend to do. Just because you pile it on doesn't mean it's all going to propogate.



Use a high explosive booster charge like RDX, TNT, etc. That's what McVeigh did.



Was all of the "HE" consumed in McVeigh's "bomb"?
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:37:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zippy_The_Wonderdog:

Originally Posted By jaeger_1969:
Your kidding right?



Let's not get all uppity, people, just an acedemic question here...put the tinfoil away...



The Trinity trial run conventional detenation was 0.1 kiloton of TNT and that thing was huge. Its nto a pratical weapon, unless you wanted to blow up a beaver dam.
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:38:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:

Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By pathfinder74:
I'm curious as to how you would be able to initiate the detonation and be able to ensure that all of the tannerite explodes and isn't just kicked out and splattered all over the place like a lot of low order explosions tend to do. Just because you pile it on doesn't mean it's all going to propogate.



Use a high explosive booster charge like RDX, TNT, etc. That's what McVeigh did.



Was all of the "HE" consumed in McVeigh's "bomb"?



Why are you using "quotes"?

If you're being straight up, how should I know? If you're inferring that his bomb was somehow hinky or not what destroyed the federal building as conspiracy theorists suspect, what can I say?
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:40:27 AM EDT
GROUP BUY
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:41:55 AM EDT
IBTL
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:45:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cms81586:
Ever see the video of the Pepcon Plant Explosion outside Henderson (I think), NV? I don't know what they estimated its size to be but Ammonium Perchlorate makes big boom!



TLC had a "Seconds From Disaster" show about that. One of the employees they interviewed said in the new hire safety briefing one of the instructions was "If there is fire, run as fast as you can" lol. That really was a disaster waiting to happen, fuel stored improperly, welding without proper safety precautions, and to top it off a huge natural gas pipeline ran directly beneath the place. In the video shot from a hill a couple miles away, you can see the shockwave travelling across the desert. I don't know the size of the explosion, but it they said it left a 15ft deep, 200ft wide crater and measured 3.5 on the richter scale
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:47:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cms81586:
Ever see the video of the Pepcon Plant Explosion outside Henderson (I think), NV? I don't know what they estimated its size to be but Ammonium Perchlorate makes big boom!



Yeah, I think I have. If it is what I am thinking of, it was filmed from high up quite a distance away and when she lit up, you could see the shockwave traveling out. Here's some stuff I just dug up on it...

www.nmia.com/~jwreed/pepcon.htm

"On May 4, 1988, fire and explosions destroyed the PEPCON missile fuel processing plant in Henderson, Nevada, sending damaging blast waves across both Henderson and Las Vegas. The largest single detonation, near 1204 PDT, gave approximately 250 tons TNT (HE) airblast equivalent surface burst - equivalent to 1-kiloton nuclear (NE) free air burst"


Here's a site with some video...but quality is pretty bad. Based on the stuff they have here I think the video I recall was something else and more recent.

www.reviewjournal.com/news/pepcon/
Link Posted: 9/29/2005 7:49:21 AM EDT
Anyone seen the video of the fire at a fireworks factory in the Netherlands from 4-5 years ago? The fire fighters sprayed water on a magnesium fire. It burns so hot it seperates the oxygen from the hydrogen in water, producing two explosive, flammable gasses. The video is unbelievable, filmed from a rooftop about half a mile away, the explosion envelopes the filmer.
Top Top