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Posted: 8/18/2004 11:53:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 11:54:07 AM EST by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 11:55:32 AM EST
He's not 18 yet. Punch away.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 11:57:11 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 11:58:19 AM EST
One of the first things my dad ever taught me was to stand up for myself. Your boy did good, you should have him skip school and take him shooting.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 11:58:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:02:13 PM EST by garandman]
My advice?

Don't punch the teacher.

Beyond that, all's fair....

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 11:59:17 AM EST
nothing wrong with that shit at all,

If more poeple would stand up for themselves bullies cease to exist.

And if there is repurcussions at school make sure that he knows the difference between the rules of the school (or lack there of from how it sounds) and the rules of the house,

if he gets written up and you think he done good, you tell him that.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 11:59:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:00:30 PM EST by AR15fan]
First kid should be prosecuted for robbery. File a police report, take it out of the schools hands. Your son has a right to resist the robber.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 11:59:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:03:14 PM EST by MaverickMkii]

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:

Tomorrow should be interesting as the teacher get's her first taste of Tj.







Funny this sounds exactly like the home defense cases.

I hope the teacher doesn't say something like "Your son is not prepared to be 'properly' victimized."
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 11:59:42 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:00:35 PM EST
Make it clear that you defend the 'right' side....he just happens to be on that side this time (and last time, IIRC).

Beyond that, make your visit one they'll remember.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:00:43 PM EST
Fighting back was the only way to stop the bullies when I was a kid. I hated violence, but it was the only way to make them stop harrassing me.

You taught your kid right TJ.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:01:25 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:02:49 PM EST
I know the "Kid" has Martial arts training...

so kudos for him, restaint and such, you did good too Dad, taught him well.


Semper Fi
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:03:03 PM EST
The schools today want passive sheep, not kids that know the difference between right and wrong and who are willing to stand up for that.

You're raising your child correctly and sure don't need us to tell you that.

Go forth and kick some serious ass tomorrow!
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:06:39 PM EST
We just had a 7 year old girl in the ATL area ARRESTED for beating up a 5 year boy with a stick.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:10:37 PM EST
Wait a sec, school started already?
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:10:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:16:03 PM EST
The way I see it that little Thug learned a lesson in action equals consequence. To me kids like that are like terrorist. All they understand is pain. Had he not got doubled over, he would have continued to take. Now he know that there are consequences to his actions and hopefully will ask for a sip next time
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:16:50 PM EST
My parents told me that if someone ever starts a fight with me, I can finish it, and school policy be damned. Of course, now, they're saying that a criminal record is a bad thing to have, so I should take it until I get out of school.

Anyway, there was this one kid, hung out with my group, everybody hated him, and we let him know it. He still came every day, we told him to go away, he never would. So anyway, after about a year, he gets so pissed off because we keep insulting him (hey, wouldn't you?), that he starts getting in my face, because he figures everybody else can kick the shit out of him (they can, one is the son of a Ranger and learned all the cool tricks, one is a black belt in Karate, and the rest are just stronger and faster) except me (WRONG!). I've had to put him in his place a few times before when he was pulling my hair (I had long hair for a while, but you NEVER EVER pull another man's hair), but he just kept slapping and kicking at me. He's a pussy, so it didn't hurt, but it was just so annoying, and technically battery, so I punched him in the face (I'm not proud, but I'm not guilty, either). Nothing serious, not even a shiner, but he starts crying and walks away.

Immediately afterwards, I'm thinking, oh shit, he's going to tell the security (we have deputies at our school, I dunno why), they're going to suspend me because they don't believe in self defense, etc. etc. etc. Fortunately, he didn't, but still, when you have to start being afraid of expulsion or suspension for self defense, there's something wrong.

Man I got loads of stories about that asshole.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:17:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By RealFastV6:
Wait a sec, school started already?



and in another 10 years it will be longer and in twenty it will be year-round with a 3 week "summer vacation" - can't indoctrinate the kiddoes into the way of a good society if they have free time in the summer to actually think and discover on their own.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:19:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
First kid should be prosecuted for robbery. File a police report, take it out of the schools hands. Your son has a right to resist the robber.



You know, thats just not a bad Idea.

Because it is all about the rules, and not what's right as far as the school
is concerned. I'd seriously think about it. Where were you when my kids
were in school?

GM
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:20:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By AR15fan:
First kid should be prosecuted for robbery. File a police report, take it out of the schools hands. Your son has a right to resist the robber.



I'm no cop, so I don't know about robbery or strongarm stuff, but if it escalates you have every right to get the police involved. It worked for me when my daughter was being harassed by big tough dyke gang banger wanna be bitch.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:21:44 PM EST
I won't be stealing Billy's beer at the next SE event.

Good job BTK.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:22:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:26:03 PM EST
Check your kid's school discipline code booklet if one exists. I had a similar issue when in high school and knowing what was in that book likely kept me from being suspended. I was attacked by a jackass after a prank started by some of his friends went wrong (seems they told this fella something that wasn't true and he reacted in a manner they hadn't anticipated). So I did the only thing I could and defended myself.

The next day when I had to report to the prinicipal, I brought my discipline code book along with me. I had studied it the night before and knew everything contained in it. There was a section dealing with fights and according to the wording in it, both parties in a fight (the one who starts it and the one who finishes it) are treated the same with a minimum 3 day suspension. But on the next page it clearly states that both students and employees have the right to personal safety from physical attacks.

When the principal pointed out the fact that I had violated school violence policy I agreed but quickly pointed out on the next page the section that said I had the right to protect myself from physical attack. I told him I didn't start the fight and that I only did what I did to protect myself. The incident happened at the end of the school day and there was no teachers or anyone for that matter to stop the fight nearby. So I had two choices: stand there and let that guy pound my skull in or fight back. I further told the principal to check my past discipline records and see how many incidents I'd been involved in. Then I asked him to compare that to the other guy's file. I didn't behave like a smart-ass but I was polite, to the point and well prepared. I simply told the principal that I was exercising my right to defend myself from attack and that if I was suspended for doing so, that such action would contradict the policy outlined in the school's own discipline code book.

To make a long story short, I was not suspended nor was I punished at all. But that's likely only because I knew my rights and the manner in which I dealt with the situation. If you can, obtain a copy of your school's discipline handbook. I'm sure there's a section dealing with "having rights to personal safety, freedom from violence and theft". Use that to prepare a defense for your kid. Think like a school administrator. See what arguments they might make. Then look for contradictions in the school policy because it's likely there will be many. What I learned is that when the system is flawed (or makes no sense at all), then know it and use that flawed system against them. It worked for me.

Good luck to your kid. I agree, he did the right thing. If you son is like you I'm sure he would have offered to buy that little shit a drink had he asked for it. But instead the punk tried to be a badass and got just what he asked for. Now I only hope your kid doesn't have to pay the price for doing what he had to do.

-CH
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:44:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:47:18 PM EST by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:47:48 PM EST
I've always, ALWAYS told my children to stick up for themselves and if necesary go to blows. Do NOT be a victim to bullys. I've also made it very clear to them that if they are defending themselves and not the ones starting the fights, they need not fear any punishment at home, and additionally leave the school administration to me. They deal with the fight, I'll deal with the administration.
And if they try to punish my kids for defending themselves, I'll be digging so far in their asses they could sign paychecks with my hand by opening their mouth.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:04:26 PM EST
Kids have to be very careful these days. It is easy for them (in Washington) to have assault charges brought against them even when defending themselves. I do not trust and/or rely on the Local School District with the education of my children.

MT
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:11:36 PM EST
Hey TJ,
Heres my story from last year. Heres all the replies http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=241838
Ok daddy's,
I need your opinion on this issue. My daughter is in second grade. She is a stout little thing. Probably a little more heavier then the majority of her class mates. Now for the past three months she has been picked on in school my this other girl that 2 grades above her. She has come home with a bruse below her eye. A bloody nose and some hair missing one day. I guess this other girl picks on other kids allot. I have writen a letter to the principal and teacher to try to help me put a stop to this. I have even gone down to the school to talk to the teacher. Nothing has been done. So over the past couple months I have had her uncle who is into self defence big time spend a hour or so a couple times a week teaching her how to protect her self and to build her self confidence back up because being picked on has ruined her self esteam. I know shes only about 8 yrs old but I just want her to walk with her head held high. So to make a long story short. This other older girl tried to pick on her again today. My little girl did nothing until the girl hit her in her nose and then she faught back finally. My daughter actually beat this bully up. When I got to the office I told them I tried everything to work with them to prevent this from happening. I asked my daughter what she did to stop the bully from picking on her and she said she grabed her thumb and bent it back as hard as she could. Then when she fell to the ground I hit her back in the nose like she did me all those times. Then I kicked her in the mouth. My god. What have I created. I feel horrible at this point but I am also proud that she can stand up for her self now. She isnt the type that will go pick on other kids now. Sheeeit. She actually broke this other kids thumb and knoked some teeth loose.The parents of the other kid came to my home and made the other kid appolagize to my kid and shook her hand. I thought for sure I was going to be talking to there lawyer. SO, Did I do wrong by having my child taught to protect her self. The wife isnt talking to me at this point. I dont think I did anything wrong. and she is taught to respect others.
Brian




Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
Well we didn't make it two weeks into the new year. BTK is my 13 year old son and as those who know him will attest an easy going kid.

BTK buys a drink after school prior to getting on the bus. A kid bigger than him takes the drink saying he's thirsty. BTK says "No way! That's my drink. Give it back." The kid refuses so BTK takes the drink and bonks him lightly on the head with it. Saying don't do that again. The kid retaliates with a hit to the arm and BTK doubles him over with a hit to stomach. The would be bully is a good six inches taller than BTK and one of those kids that dies his hair different colors about once a semester.

My son's bus is calling for the last call just as the teacher shows up, of course advised of the situation by the class apple bringing tattle tale. She tells him he will be written up.

Been here before so know, the KID is in for it. The proper response to anything in school is allow anything and then tell on them. The theif will be exonerated since he didn't start any violence.

I apologize for not teaching my kid to be a victim and as far as I'm concerned he's in no trouble. In my day, this was just usual kids highjinks. Geez, and BTK was just put in advance classes this year.

Tomorrow should be interesting as the teacher get's her first taste of Tj.

Am I doing wrong here or what?

Tj

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:28:47 PM EST
I apologize for not teaching my kid to be a victim and as far as I'm concerned he's in no trouble. In my day, this was just usual kids highjinks. Geez, and BTK was just put in advance classes this year.
Am I doing wrong here or what?


The only thing you did wrong is apologize.......... no aplogies are necessary for educating your child to defend himself.

AKASL
LIVE FREE OR DIE
WHITE MOUNTAINS
NEW HAMPSHIRE
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:00:48 PM EST
When I was a kid, if I got picked on by someone older or bigger then me I had to handle it myself. If I ran to my dad and told him I would be the one in trouble. My dad made sure we stood up for ourselves, and he showed us how to fight with someone bigger then us. I wouldn't have been in trouble at home for what your son did. IMHO he did good, no matter what the school says. He is your son raise him the way you think is right. ANd I think you did good too.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 3:19:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2004 3:21:03 AM EST by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 3:42:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
Well BTK called the kid last night and tells him that whatever happens between the two of them should be kept between the two of them. The kid quickly agrees. I was pretty impressed with how he handled the call. It was very mature for a kid his age. I think the other kid was pretty impressed as well. Apparently the hatchet was buried last night.

The two of them go before the principle this morning united with it was just guy stuff but also dedicated to not telling a lie.

I will update on the schools reaction.

Tj



Well done. I am still kind of hoping you get to spring the "I see my responsiblity as a parent to teach him not to be a vicitm. To me it is an ethics issue" speech on them.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 3:53:57 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 4:00:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
Well BTK called the kid last night and tells him that whatever happens between the two of them should be kept between the two of them. The kid quickly agrees. I was pretty impressed with how he handled the call. It was very mature for a kid his age. I think the other kid was pretty impressed as well. Apparently the hatchet was buried last night.

The two of them go before the principle this morning united with it was just guy stuff but also dedicated to not telling a lie.

I will update on the schools reaction.

Tj



Looks like you've done a good job with your kid! Well done!
Out of curiosity, how old are the boys?
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:20:31 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:24:52 AM EST
Good job, TJ!! Give BTK a pat on the back from me.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:24:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
The two boys stuck to their agreement and both were let off with a warning!

BTK and the other boy are not enemies nor will the other boy try to steal from BTK again.

Tj



AWESOME! What a great kid, and what a good lesson for both of them to resolve things without getting "the man" involved.

Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:33:03 AM EST
Glad things ended well , the other boy must not have looked like this then


GM

Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:34:35 AM EST
+1 for BTK!

I'd say he exercised restraint.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:36:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By TomJefferson:
The two boys stuck to their agreement and both were let off with a warning!

BTK and the other boy are not enemies nor will the other boy try to steal from BTK again.

Tj



Glad to hear that BTK did the right thing.

The funny thing is that if the school administration had it's way they would have both been punished and made into even bigger enemies than they already are.

Mark my words, BTK and the guy who took his drink will probably become friends now. I don't know what it is, but just about every single guy I ever got into a physical fight with ended up in us being friends. It's a guy thing I guess.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:39:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:48:22 AM EST

My advice?

Don't punch the teacher.

Beyond that, all's fair....



g-man was right.

Do you have a Seeing Eye Cat?
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 9:03:46 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 9:05:56 AM EST
Kudos to you both! You raised him right!

I've been trying to instill that into my daughter: Don't start anything, but you can defend yourself.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 9:13:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:
He's not 18 yet. Punch away.



yep who cares if he gets in trouble hes 13, just tell him he did the right thing,

I like police report idea
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 9:16:52 AM EST
he didn't start the fight, but he finished it
good for him
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 9:21:22 AM EST
Damn, that BTK is some kind of kid, isn't he? Send congratulations and pats on the back to him from me and my wife. You've got a fine boy there, TJ!
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 11:47:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/19/2004 11:49:07 AM EST by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 11:57:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By unixcock:
Hey TJ,
Heres my story from last year. Heres all the replies http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=241838
Ok daddy's,
I need your opinion on this issue. My daughter is in second grade. She is a stout little thing. Probably a little more heavier then the majority of her class mates. Now for the past three months she has been picked on in school my this other girl that 2 grades above her. She has come home with a bruse below her eye. A bloody nose and some hair missing one day. I guess this other girl picks on other kids allot. I have writen a letter to the principal and teacher to try to help me put a stop to this. I have even gone down to the school to talk to the teacher. Nothing has been done. So over the past couple months I have had her uncle who is into self defence big time spend a hour or so a couple times a week teaching her how to protect her self and to build her self confidence back up because being picked on has ruined her self esteam. I know shes only about 8 yrs old but I just want her to walk with her head held high. So to make a long story short. This other older girl tried to pick on her again today. My little girl did nothing until the girl hit her in her nose and then she faught back finally. My daughter actually beat this bully up. When I got to the office I told them I tried everything to work with them to prevent this from happening. I asked my daughter what she did to stop the bully from picking on her and she said she grabed her thumb and bent it back as hard as she could. Then when she fell to the ground I hit her back in the nose like she did me all those times. Then I kicked her in the mouth. My god. What have I created. I feel horrible at this point but I am also proud that she can stand up for her self now. She isnt the type that will go pick on other kids now. Sheeeit. She actually broke this other kids thumb and knoked some teeth loose.The parents of the other kid came to my home and made the other kid appolagize to my kid and shook her hand. I thought for sure I was going to be talking to there lawyer. SO, Did I do wrong by having my child taught to protect her self. The wife isnt talking to me at this point. I dont think I did anything wrong. and she is taught to respect others.
Brian




Hey, now kids with think twice about messing with her. She did good. If she would have just pushed back things would have escalated the next time. Now she put and end to it. Good for her.
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 8:27:20 PM EST
As a part-time school bus driver I have problems with this type policy and I finally told my boss that I WILL NOT write up a kid who defends themself from an attack. I refuse to do it. I will go after the one who started the trouble. And despite it being policy that both parties be written up, my boss agreed with me and will back me up on this.
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