Here it is! IFS/IRS vs. Solid axles for off road use.

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Here it is! IFS/IRS vs. Solid axles for off road use. (Page 1 of 3)

Posted: 7/9/2010 12:18:35 PM EDT

So that no more threads get hijacked

I say that a well designed IFS or IFS/IRS system beats a well designed solid axle system in virtually all terrain.

GO!

Posted: 7/9/2010 12:20:29 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
So that no more threads get hijacked

I say that a well designed IFS or IFS/IRS system beats a well designed solid axle system in virtually all terrain.

GO!

Not even close. The only place IFS works better then a well designed solid axle is hi speed desert running and on the road. Both of those areas gain from lighter unsprung weight.

Posted: 7/9/2010 12:33:33 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
So that no more threads get hijacked

I say that a well designed IFS or IFS/IRS system beats a well designed solid axle system in virtually all terrain.

GO!

Not even close. The only place IFS works better then a well designed solid axle is hi speed desert running and on the road. Both of those areas gain from lighter unsprung weight.

This.

When it comes to wheel travel, a solid axle will come out on top 95% of the time. Solid axle is also cheap to make and easier to engineer and can be made to be 95% as capable as an IRS. See new 2010 mustang vs 2010 camaro as a example.

Posted: 7/9/2010 12:40:12 PM EDT

[#3]

#1 reason a solid axle is better than IFS offroad:

Less shit to break.

#2:

IFS systems lose ground clearance as the wheel rises.

-p.

Posted: 7/9/2010 12:45:10 PM EDT

[#4]

CV joints break. Often.

Posted: 7/9/2010 2:25:27 PM EDT

[#5]

Push up on one side of an SFA and the other wheel pushes down harder

This doesn't happen with IFS

Shit if IFS was so awesome offroad more rigs would have IRS

Posted: 7/9/2010 3:16:31 PM EDT

[#6]

Like virtually every light truck, FJC's, LR's, trophy trucks, and many more?

ETA: Forgot silverados and countless military vehicles

All of the above set up properly (or stock in the case of the .mil vehicles) are quite competent off road in most conditions. While a solid front end may be best for heavy duty crawling or a nasty mud pit, that isn't an accurate cross section off roading.

IFS/IRS is more versatile

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 7/9/2010 3:30:12 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
Like virtually every light truck, FJC's, LR's, trophy trucks, and many more?

ETA: Forgot silverados and countless military vehicles

All of the above set up properly (or stock in the case of the .mil vehicles) are quite competent off road in most conditions. While a solid front end may be best for heavy duty crawling or a nasty mud pit, that isn't an accurate cross section off roading.

IFS/IRS is more versatile

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Many vehicles have it because it provides superior under body ground clearance. Set up properly (read HEAVY DUTY) for a specific type of terrain (Baja or road racing) IRS/IFS can be a boon as it lets wheels cycle independently to maintain traction with terrain while going at high speed.

For MOST off-roading you would be better served with a solid axle.

Posted: 7/9/2010 4:43:12 PM EDT

[#8]

I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

Posted: 7/9/2010 4:59:34 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

I disagree

Unless you make a radical departure and eliminate the pesky cv axles in favor of indipendantly driven wheel motors

Posted: 7/9/2010 5:04:16 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

To get the articulation of a solid axle in and IRS/IFS you need to greatly extend out the A arms, often requiring the bulging or removal of fenders (if the vehicle has them) this often leads to a ridiculously wide vehicle and puts more torque on mounting points when stressed at odd angles. For hard core, slow moving terrain it is at a disadvantage, for faster, wide open terrain like the desert or plains IRS/IFS comes into it's own. Don't see many full axle vehicles race baja and you don't see many IFS/IRS do rock crawling or serious mudding. Could they? sure but they rarely perform up to the level of a solid axle rig without throwing lots of cash at it for significant re-engineering.

From a cost, durability, easy of repair/maintenance, load carrying, strength standpoint the solid axle wins. IMO, REAL trucks have solid axles

On a side note, Older fords that use the TTB style are kind of a hybrid and were reasonably strong and could be modded to get good articulation but without a quality kit or knowledgeable builder ate tires up from bothersome alignment issues if you didn't keep up on maintenance with bushings, bearings and alignments.

Posted: 7/9/2010 5:06:19 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

Sure, but it'd be expensive, and probably a lot more complicated than a solid axle.

If you are a trophy truck with sponsors and a repair crew, no issue. Your typical offroader is not. Solid axles offer excellent offroad performance for minimal cost, and can be pimped out if so desired. Solid axles are simple, mostly cheap, and they work well.

Independent suspensions are great for high speed offroading, they work decent in normal offroading, offer a nicer ride than solid axles and can be purpose built to be quite excellent, but for plain old trail riding, rocks, mud or whatever, the simplicity of solid axles and the fact they just plain work makes them better.

And to the OP, did you honestly list FJ Cruisers and Land Rovers as prime examples of good offroaders? Jeez...I guess if you consider hopping a curb at the mall and getting dirt on your tires without spilling your latte offroading.

FJCs can be built to be fairly capable though.And what type of axles does Land Rover use in their Defender, you know...the one marketed to people who will actually use it offroad? Sold axles.

Posted: 7/9/2010 5:12:07 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

Sure, but it'd be expensive, and probably a lot more complicated than a solid axle.

If you are a trophy truck with sponsors and a repair crew, no issue. Your typical offroader is not. Solid axles offer excellent offroad performance for minimal cost, and can be pimped out if so desired. Solid axles are simple, mostly cheap, and they work well.

Independent suspensions are great for high speed offroading, they work decent in normal offroading, offer a nicer ride than solid axles and can be purpose built to be quite excellent, but for plain old trail riding, rocks, mud or whatever, the simplicity of solid axles and the fact they just plain work makes them better.

And to the OP, did you honestly list FJ Cruisers and Land Rovers as prime examples of good offroaders? Jeez...I guess if you consider hopping a curb at the mall and getting dirt on your tires without spilling your latte offroading.

FJCs can be built to be fairly capable though.And what type of axles does Land Rover use in their Defender, you know...the one marketed to people who will actually use it offroad? Sold axles.

Actually, in stock form a land rover is probably the most noticeable exception to the rule, LR3/4s etc are AMAZING off road for what they are. They will do things that make a modded jeep owner envious. They are the UNIMOG of the SUV world. This is mainly due to their fantastic ability to tune the suspension and bias TQ/braking on the fly with various sensors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mi76R56yL4&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STt7DmJeeVc&feature=related

IMPRESSIVE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Nfvr4iWeQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_v_1hu-Fuo&feature=related

Posted: 7/9/2010 5:18:46 PM EDT

[#13]

Ummm.....

Posted: 7/9/2010 5:21:49 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Ummm.....

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z23/Gooey_GUI/humvee.jpg

Yeah....They're not as great off road as many think.

Posted: 7/9/2010 5:33:46 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

To get the articulation of a solid axle in and IRS/IFS you need to greatly extend out the A arms, often requiring the bulging or removal of fenders (if the vehicle has them) this often leads to a ridiculously wide vehicle and puts more torque on mounting points when stressed at odd angles. For hard core, slow moving terrain it is at a disadvantage, for faster, wide open terrain like the desert or plains IRS/IFS comes into it's own. Don't see many full axle vehicles race baja and you don't see many IFS/IRS do rock crawling or serious mudding. Could they? sure but they rarely perform up to the level of a solid axle rig without throwing lots of cash at it for significant re-engineering.

From a cost, durability, easy of repair/maintenance, load carrying, strength standpoint the solid axle wins. IMO, REAL trucks have solid axles

On a side note, Older fords that use the TTB style are kind of a hybrid and were reasonably strong and could be modded to get good articulation but without a quality kit or knowledgeable builder ate tires up from bothersome alignment issues if you didn't keep up on maintenance with bushings, bearings and alignments.

Again, get all your previous notions of independent suspension out of your head. I can think of many ways, radically different, to do it.

Posted: 7/9/2010 5:57:57 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

To get the articulation of a solid axle in and IRS/IFS you need to greatly extend out the A arms, often requiring the bulging or removal of fenders (if the vehicle has them) this often leads to a ridiculously wide vehicle and puts more torque on mounting points when stressed at odd angles. For hard core, slow moving terrain it is at a disadvantage, for faster, wide open terrain like the desert or plains IRS/IFS comes into it's own. Don't see many full axle vehicles race baja and you don't see many IFS/IRS do rock crawling or serious mudding. Could they? sure but they rarely perform up to the level of a solid axle rig without throwing lots of cash at it for significant re-engineering.

From a cost, durability, easy of repair/maintenance, load carrying, strength standpoint the solid axle wins. IMO, REAL trucks have solid axles

On a side note, Older fords that use the TTB style are kind of a hybrid and were reasonably strong and could be modded to get good articulation but without a quality kit or knowledgeable builder ate tires up from bothersome alignment issues if you didn't keep up on maintenance with bushings, bearings and alignments.

Again, get all your previous notions of independent suspension out of your head. I can think of many ways, radically different, to do it.

Radically different....if you can think of ways, surely other engineers in car companies can, why aren't they? My guess is that the cost and complexity issues overcome the benefit of what you would get over a good o'l straight axle. It is possible to over think/engineer a problem.

Posted: 7/9/2010 6:15:13 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

To get the articulation of a solid axle in and IRS/IFS you need to greatly extend out the A arms, often requiring the bulging or removal of fenders (if the vehicle has them) this often leads to a ridiculously wide vehicle and puts more torque on mounting points when stressed at odd angles. For hard core, slow moving terrain it is at a disadvantage, for faster, wide open terrain like the desert or plains IRS/IFS comes into it's own. Don't see many full axle vehicles race baja and you don't see many IFS/IRS do rock crawling or serious mudding. Could they? sure but they rarely perform up to the level of a solid axle rig without throwing lots of cash at it for significant re-engineering.

From a cost, durability, easy of repair/maintenance, load carrying, strength standpoint the solid axle wins. IMO, REAL trucks have solid axles

On a side note, Older fords that use the TTB style are kind of a hybrid and were reasonably strong and could be modded to get good articulation but without a quality kit or knowledgeable builder ate tires up from bothersome alignment issues if you didn't keep up on maintenance with bushings, bearings and alignments.

Again, get all your previous notions of independent suspension out of your head. I can think of many ways, radically different, to do it.

Radically different....if you can think of ways, surely other engineers in car companies can, why aren't they? My guess is that the cost and complexity issues overcome the benefit of what you would get over a good o'l straight axle. It is possible to over think/engineer a problem.

I didn't think we were including price here. Price aside, I think independent suspension has way more potential than solid.

Posted: 7/9/2010 6:24:21 PM EDT

[#18]

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=w_F7QrR4Ur8

Posted: 7/9/2010 6:29:00 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

Sure, but it'd be expensive, and probably a lot more complicated than a solid axle.

If you are a trophy truck with sponsors and a repair crew, no issue. Your typical offroader is not. Solid axles offer excellent offroad performance for minimal cost, and can be pimped out if so desired. Solid axles are simple, mostly cheap, and they work well.

Independent suspensions are great for high speed offroading, they work decent in normal offroading, offer a nicer ride than solid axles and can be purpose built to be quite excellent, but for plain old trail riding, rocks, mud or whatever, the simplicity of solid axles and the fact they just plain work makes them better.

And to the OP, did you honestly list FJ Cruisers and Land Rovers as prime examples of good offroaders? Jeez...I guess if you consider hopping a curb at the mall and getting dirt on your tires without spilling your latte offroading.

FJCs can be built to be fairly capable though.And what type of axles does Land Rover use in their Defender, you know...the one marketed to people who will actually use it offroad? Sold axles.

Actually, in stock form a land rover is probably the most noticeable exception to the rule, LR3/4s etc are AMAZING off road for what they are. They will do things that make a modded jeep owner envious. They are the UNIMOG of the SUV world. This is mainly due to their fantastic ability to tune the suspension and bias TQ/braking on the fly with various sensors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mi76R56yL4&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STt7DmJeeVc&feature=related

IMPRESSIVE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Nfvr4iWeQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_v_1hu-Fuo&feature=related

Maybe I've just been wheeling too long, but that all looked like plane jane wheeling to me. Impressive for a stock vehicle...but for the price...

Posted: 7/9/2010 6:33:54 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

Sure, but it'd be expensive, and probably a lot more complicated than a solid axle.

If you are a trophy truck with sponsors and a repair crew, no issue. Your typical offroader is not. Solid axles offer excellent offroad performance for minimal cost, and can be pimped out if so desired. Solid axles are simple, mostly cheap, and they work well.

Independent suspensions are great for high speed offroading, they work decent in normal offroading, offer a nicer ride than solid axles and can be purpose built to be quite excellent, but for plain old trail riding, rocks, mud or whatever, the simplicity of solid axles and the fact they just plain work makes them better.

And to the OP, did you honestly list FJ Cruisers and Land Rovers as prime examples of good offroaders? Jeez...I guess if you consider hopping a curb at the mall and getting dirt on your tires without spilling your latte offroading.

FJCs can be built to be fairly capable though.And what type of axles does Land Rover use in their Defender, you know...the one marketed to people who will actually use it offroad? Sold axles.

Actually, in stock form a land rover is probably the most noticeable exception to the rule, LR3/4s etc are AMAZING off road for what they are. They will do things that make a modded jeep owner envious. They are the UNIMOG of the SUV world. This is mainly due to their fantastic ability to tune the suspension and bias TQ/braking on the fly with various sensors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mi76R56yL4&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STt7DmJeeVc&feature=related

IMPRESSIVE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Nfvr4iWeQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_v_1hu-Fuo&feature=related

Maybe I've just been wheeling too long, but that all looked like plane jane wheeling to me. Impressive for a stock vehicle...but for the price...

For a stock vehicle with street tires it is VERY impressive. Expensive yes, but you get performance that would be costly to add to many other vehicles not to mention the other niceties and a WARRANTY!

Posted: 7/9/2010 6:38:26 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

Sure, but it'd be expensive, and probably a lot more complicated than a solid axle.

If you are a trophy truck with sponsors and a repair crew, no issue. Your typical offroader is not. Solid axles offer excellent offroad performance for minimal cost, and can be pimped out if so desired. Solid axles are simple, mostly cheap, and they work well.

Independent suspensions are great for high speed offroading, they work decent in normal offroading, offer a nicer ride than solid axles and can be purpose built to be quite excellent, but for plain old trail riding, rocks, mud or whatever, the simplicity of solid axles and the fact they just plain work makes them better.

And to the OP, did you honestly list FJ Cruisers and Land Rovers as prime examples of good offroaders? Jeez...I guess if you consider hopping a curb at the mall and getting dirt on your tires without spilling your latte offroading.

FJCs can be built to be fairly capable though.And what type of axles does Land Rover use in their Defender, you know...the one marketed to people who will actually use it offroad? Sold axles.

Actually, in stock form a land rover is probably the most noticeable exception to the rule, LR3/4s etc are AMAZING off road for what they are. They will do things that make a modded jeep owner envious. They are the UNIMOG of the SUV world. This is mainly due to their fantastic ability to tune the suspension and bias TQ/braking on the fly with various sensors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mi76R56yL4&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STt7DmJeeVc&feature=related

IMPRESSIVE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Nfvr4iWeQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_v_1hu-Fuo&feature=related

Maybe I've just been wheeling too long, but that all looked like plane jane wheeling to me. Impressive for a stock vehicle...but for the price...

For a stock vehicle with street tires it is VERY impressive. Expensive yes, but you get performance that would be costly to add to many other vehicles not to mention the other niceties.

Yeah the hill climb with street tires was pretty impressive I agree. I checked the trees in the background to make sure they didn't tilt the camera.

But for the same price...think of what you could do with a TJ.

Guess it depends on if you want uber capability, or great capability, leather seats, and cupholders.

Jeep seems to be going the Land Rover route with the Grand Cherokee...kinda interested to see where they take it.

Posted: 7/9/2010 6:40:00 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

To get the articulation of a solid axle in and IRS/IFS you need to greatly extend out the A arms, often requiring the bulging or removal of fenders (if the vehicle has them) this often leads to a ridiculously wide vehicle and puts more torque on mounting points when stressed at odd angles. For hard core, slow moving terrain it is at a disadvantage, for faster, wide open terrain like the desert or plains IRS/IFS comes into it's own. Don't see many full axle vehicles race baja and you don't see many IFS/IRS do rock crawling or serious mudding. Could they? sure but they rarely perform up to the level of a solid axle rig without throwing lots of cash at it for significant re-engineering.

From a cost, durability, easy of repair/maintenance, load carrying, strength standpoint the solid axle wins. IMO, REAL trucks have solid axles

On a side note, Older fords that use the TTB style are kind of a hybrid and were reasonably strong and could be modded to get good articulation but without a quality kit or knowledgeable builder ate tires up from bothersome alignment issues if you didn't keep up on maintenance with bushings, bearings and alignments.

Again, get all your previous notions of independent suspension out of your head. I can think of many ways, radically different, to do it.

Radically different....if you can think of ways, surely other engineers in car companies can, why aren't they? My guess is that the cost and complexity issues overcome the benefit of what you would get over a good o'l straight axle. It is possible to over think/engineer a problem.

I didn't think we were including price here. Price aside, I think independent suspension has way more potential than solid.

Of course cost has to be looked at. If you design something that does the job and it costs $x and you design something else that costs $2x and it does the job why spend the extra $? Or more appropriately design something that gets you 10% more capability but costs you 80% more, is it REALLY better? With time and money, sure you may be able to design something better than a straight axle but it will introduce additional points of wear and failure and be more difficult to maintain and repair. You have to look at the whole picture, not cherry pick advantages/disadvantages.

The perfect is the enemy of the good enough.

Posted: 7/9/2010 6:41:43 PM EDT

[#23]

So what sort of vehicle does everyone here drive?

I'm guessing there are quite a few Jeeps and 3/4 ton diesels.

I'm a Tacoma driver.

Posted: 7/9/2010 6:42:42 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

Sure, but it'd be expensive, and probably a lot more complicated than a solid axle.

If you are a trophy truck with sponsors and a repair crew, no issue. Your typical offroader is not. Solid axles offer excellent offroad performance for minimal cost, and can be pimped out if so desired. Solid axles are simple, mostly cheap, and they work well.

Independent suspensions are great for high speed offroading, they work decent in normal offroading, offer a nicer ride than solid axles and can be purpose built to be quite excellent, but for plain old trail riding, rocks, mud or whatever, the simplicity of solid axles and the fact they just plain work makes them better.

And to the OP, did you honestly list FJ Cruisers and Land Rovers as prime examples of good offroaders? Jeez...I guess if you consider hopping a curb at the mall and getting dirt on your tires without spilling your latte offroading.

FJCs can be built to be fairly capable though.And what type of axles does Land Rover use in their Defender, you know...the one marketed to people who will actually use it offroad? Sold axles.

Actually, in stock form a land rover is probably the most noticeable exception to the rule, LR3/4s etc are AMAZING off road for what they are. They will do things that make a modded jeep owner envious. They are the UNIMOG of the SUV world. This is mainly due to their fantastic ability to tune the suspension and bias TQ/braking on the fly with various sensors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Mi76R56yL4&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STt7DmJeeVc&feature=related

IMPRESSIVE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Nfvr4iWeQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_v_1hu-Fuo&feature=related

Maybe I've just been wheeling too long, but that all looked like plane jane wheeling to me. Impressive for a stock vehicle...but for the price...

For a stock vehicle with street tires it is VERY impressive. Expensive yes, but you get performance that would be costly to add to many other vehicles not to mention the other niceties.

Yeah the hill climb with street tires was pretty impressive I agree. I checked the trees in the background to make sure they didn't tilt the camera.

But for the same price...think of what you could do with a TJ.

Guess it depends on if you want uber capability, or great capability, leather seats, and cupholders.

Jeep seems to be going the Land Rover route with the Grand Cherokee...kinda interested to see where they take it.

I agree, it will be interesting to see reviews of it. They are definitely chasing the uber sport ute market and even their commercials show Land Rover inspired tech/features.

Posted: 7/9/2010 6:44:45 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

So what sort of vehicle does everyone here drive?

I'm guessing there are quite a few Jeeps and 3/4 ton diesels.

LOL I have both.

Posted: 7/9/2010 6:44:45 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

I disagree

Unless you make a radical departure and eliminate the pesky cv axles in favor of indipendantly driven wheel motors

That is the future...

Posted: 7/9/2010 6:47:42 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
So what sort of vehicle does everyone here drive?

I'm guessing there are quite a few Jeeps and 3/4 ton diesels.

I'm a Tacoma driver.

I've got a 1973 Jeep J2000 Thriftside, a 1979 Jeep Cherokee Golden Eagle, and a 2007 Chevy 2500HD that I'm looking to trade for a 2500HD Diesel.

So yeah.

Tacos are awesome trucks though, almost went with one instead of my current truck.

Posted: 7/9/2010 6:48:35 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
So what sort of vehicle does everyone here drive?

I'm guessing there are quite a few Jeeps and 3/4 ton diesels.

I'm a Tacoma driver.

Or my wife's 02 WJ Grand Cherokee Limited.....or 08 Impala (unit/work)....or 86 IROC Z28 (work)

Posted: 7/9/2010 6:53:20 PM EDT

[#29]

Posted: 7/9/2010 6:58:57 PM EDT

[#30]

Two jeeps and a tundra

Posted: 7/9/2010 7:16:27 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

I disagree

Unless you make a radical departure and eliminate the pesky cv axles in favor of indipendantly driven wheel motors

That is the future...

I agree. But again the change will be so radical the IFS vs SFA argument will seem as silly as VHS vs BETA does today

Posted: 7/9/2010 7:19:41 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
For a stock vehicle with street tires it is VERY impressive. Expensive yes, but you get performance that would be costly to add to many other vehicles not to mention the other niceties and a WARRANTY!

Take a stock, new Taco, Frontier, FJ, XTerra, Ranger, etc, add front and rear air lockers for about $2000. Keep the warranty and several 10s of thousands of dollars.

Posted: 7/9/2010 7:21:17 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
For a stock vehicle with street tires it is VERY impressive. Expensive yes, but you get performance that would be costly to add to many other vehicles not to mention the other niceties and a WARRANTY!

Take a stock, new Taco, Frontier, FJ, XTerra, Ranger, etc, add front and rear air lockers for about $2000. Keep the warranty and several 10s of thousands of dollars.

If it were that simple, you'd see alot more of it hell, it'd be a factory option.

Posted: 7/9/2010 7:26:18 PM EDT

[#34]

It is that simple. It isn't a factory option because 99.99999% of owners of any vehicle would never do anything like that.

I know the fancy electronics in the Rover will be a lot better in normal situations, ice/snow/etc than lockers, but for the hill climb/decent pictures, lockers would do the same thing or better for a fraction of the cost.

Posted: 7/9/2010 7:32:23 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
For a stock vehicle with street tires it is VERY impressive. Expensive yes, but you get performance that would be costly to add to many other vehicles not to mention the other niceties and a WARRANTY!

Take a stock, new Taco, Frontier, FJ, XTerra, Ranger, etc, add front and rear air lockers for about $2000. Keep the warranty and several 10s of thousands of dollars.

If it were that simple, you'd see alot more of it hell, it'd be a factory option.

It's called a Rubicon.

Posted: 7/9/2010 7:38:26 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:

For a stock vehicle with street tires it is VERY impressive. Expensive yes, but you get performance that would be costly to add to many other vehicles not to mention the other niceties and a WARRANTY!

Take a stock, new Taco, Frontier, FJ, XTerra, Ranger, etc, add front and rear air lockers for about $2000. Keep the warranty and several 10s of thousands of dollars.

If it were that simple, you'd see alot more of it hell, it'd be a factory option.

It's called a Rubicon.

Yep

Posted: 7/9/2010 7:41:38 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
It is that simple. It isn't a factory option because 99.99999% of owners of any vehicle would never do anything like that.

I know the fancy electronics in the Rover will be a lot better in normal situations, ice/snow/etc than lockers, but for the hill climb/decent pictures, lockers would do the same thing or better for a fraction of the cost.

I'm sorry, I don't buy it. If that kind of performance with street tires was that easy to get, it would kill most of the aftermarket parts market, there simply would be no need for it. The LRs do have lockers btw. The reason LRs do so well is that

1.) They have lockers in them. IIRC, the newest ones may have 3 lockers, I'd have to look again.
2.) They have sophisticated TC with TQ and brake biasing and mode dependent throttle tip in.
3.) They have HD and CA control that takes advantage of #2
4.) A low center of gravity
5.) A dead simple UI that will make even a noob look like a fookin off-road star

If it was so simple, and so cheap, you'd be seeing the car companies themselves touting the ability,especially in the car/truck rags.

Posted: 7/9/2010 7:42:11 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
For a stock vehicle with street tires it is VERY impressive. Expensive yes, but you get performance that would be costly to add to many other vehicles not to mention the other niceties and a WARRANTY!

Take a stock, new Taco, Frontier, FJ, XTerra, Ranger, etc, add front and rear air lockers for about $2000. Keep the warranty and several 10s of thousands of dollars.

If it were that simple, you'd see alot more of it hell, it'd be a factory option.

It's called a Rubicon.

Yep

I think he wanted to keep a nice interior and the ability to drive a thousand miles a day without stabbing himself.

Posted: 7/9/2010 7:43:43 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:

For a stock vehicle with street tires it is VERY impressive. Expensive yes, but you get performance that would be costly to add to many other vehicles not to mention the other niceties and a WARRANTY!

Take a stock, new Taco, Frontier, FJ, XTerra, Ranger, etc, add front and rear air lockers for about $2000. Keep the warranty and several 10s of thousands of dollars.

If it were that simple, you'd see alot more of it hell, it'd be a factory option.

It's called a Rubicon.

Yep

I think he wanted to keep a nice interior and the ability to drive a thousand miles a day without stabbing himself.

Not a problem in my 08 Rubi. Rides much better than my old TJ

Posted: 7/9/2010 7:47:39 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Ummm.....
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z23/Gooey_GUI/humvee.jpg

Yeah....They're not as great off road as many think.

Posted: 7/9/2010 7:50:08 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
I agree. But again the change will be so radical the IFS vs SFA argument will seem as silly as VHS vs BETA does today

I wish I could get the controllers... This stuff wouldn't be super hard to fab if you could buy the parts.

Imagine a Jeep with suspension arms that were three or more feet long...

Posted: 7/9/2010 7:52:47 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

So what sort of vehicle does everyone here drive?

I'm guessing there are quite a few Jeeps and 3/4 ton diesels.

I'm a Tacoma driver.

Replaced the Jeep with a 2005 Forester XT, I did just pick up a dodge ram 1500 though

Posted: 7/9/2010 8:53:49 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Ummm.....

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z23/Gooey_GUI/humvee.jpg

Ha, ha........! Yeah, these are so narrow, nimble, and maneuverable............have you ever driven one? Sure they are fun, but there are much better choices.

Posted: 7/10/2010 3:09:00 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

I disagree

Unless you make a radical departure and eliminate the pesky cv axles in favor of indipendantly driven wheel motors

I don't recall the CV's being a big problem on M998's Humvees.

Posted: 7/10/2010 3:23:04 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

I disagree

Unless you make a radical departure and eliminate the pesky cv axles in favor of indipendantly driven wheel motors

I don't recall the CV's being a big problem on M998's Humvees.

Sure, but you need geared hubs to do that. And that adds expense, weight and above all, maintenance.

Posted: 7/10/2010 3:54:40 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

I disagree

Unless you make a radical departure and eliminate the pesky cv axles in favor of indipendantly driven wheel motors

I don't recall the CV's being a big problem on M998's Humvees.

Sure, but you need geared hubs to do that. And that adds expense, weight and above all, maintenance.

Cheapest and best are rarely the same thing. IIRC, the H1's sold for over 100k. I am traveling next week by air. The best way would be via private jet. I'm going on a commercial airliner, in coach.

Posted: 7/10/2010 4:30:44 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

I disagree

Unless you make a radical departure and eliminate the pesky cv axles in favor of indipendantly driven wheel motors

I don't recall the CV's being a big problem on M998's Humvees.

Do you guys realize the humvee isn't exactly a gold standard of offroad capability. Fox charlie actual's claim is to build a 4 wheel independent suspension that OUTPERFORMS a top notch solid setup offroad. The H1 definately already doesn't do that

H1 vs 80's era jeeps

Just cause the military uses it doesn't auomatically make it the best in the world, AHEM, M9, Blackhawk, helecopter, V22 osprey, and HMMVW

Posted: 7/10/2010 5:30:48 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

I disagree

Unless you make a radical departure and eliminate the pesky cv axles in favor of indipendantly driven wheel motors

I don't recall the CV's being a big problem on M998's Humvees.

Do you guys realize the humvee isn't exactly a gold standard of offroad capability. Fox charlie actual's claim is to build a 4 wheel independent suspension that OUTPERFORMS a top notch solid setup offroad. The H1 definately already doesn't do that

H1 vs 80's era jeeps

Just cause the military uses it doesn't auomatically make it the best in the world, AHEM, M9, Blackhawk, helecopter, V22 osprey, and HMMVW

I drove an M88A1.

It could go thru somethings that a jeep would not and couldn't do others that I jeep would not have a problem with. I broke a #6 torsion bar following a humvee. I was lucky / "had the mad skills" to not throw track that day. The "big" mud bogs you see on Youtube, I could have pulled a M1 thru.

Yeah, they should have gone with the Sig, preferably the P220.

(if you aren't going to use hollow points , don't use a 9

)
What's wrong with the Blackhawk?
V22, good idea, not fully debugged.
What do you think would be better than the M998? Keep in mind, the M151A2 was too small for what was needed.

ETA, It starts off with a glorified Yukon (aka a H2) breaking a tie rod and then shows that picking the right path and knowing how to drive is important.

Posted: 7/10/2010 6:40:06 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

I disagree

Unless you make a radical departure and eliminate the pesky cv axles in favor of indipendantly driven wheel motors

I don't recall the CV's being a big problem on M998's Humvees.

Sure, but you need geared hubs to do that. And that adds expense, weight and above all, maintenance.

Cheapest and best are rarely the same thing. IIRC, the H1's sold for over 100k. I am traveling next week by air. The best way would be via private jet. I'm going on a commercial airliner, in coach.

The H1s are neither cheapest OR best! Cool but their size is their draw back What they have going for them is a low center of gravity and fairly good gearing.

Posted: 7/10/2010 7:04:48 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I disagree. I can design a four wheel independent suspension for off road that will out perform any current solid axle design in the popular offroading market. You all think Exploder/CRV/Murano when you hear IRS; that's not what the OP said.

I disagree

Unless you make a radical departure and eliminate the pesky cv axles in favor of indipendantly driven wheel motors

I don't recall the CV's being a big problem on M998's Humvees.

Sure, but you need geared hubs to do that. And that adds expense, weight and above all, maintenance.

Cheapest and best are rarely the same thing. IIRC, the H1's sold for over 100k. I am traveling next week by air. The best way would be via private jet. I'm going on a commercial airliner, in coach.

The H1s are neither cheapest OR best! Cool but their size is their draw back What they have going for them is a low center of gravity and fairly good gearing.

The 6.2 was/is a POS to be sure. The IRS on them seemed to work pretty well. I only saw a couple of them high center. One was at McCoy and he hit a stump in what looked like 3" of puddle. We beat the dent in the driver foot well out with a hammer.

The other was at NTC (Ft Irwin), he went into a wadi that he didn't see just after sunset. There were two M88 crews watching him do this. We managed to unstick him with out much difficulty.

ETA, next to my track, the M998's were small and fast.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Here it is! IFS/IRS vs. Solid axles for off road use. (Page 1 of 3)

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