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Posted: 6/13/2009 11:28:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 1:27:02 AM EST by Dutchy556]
Just got back from a friends graduation party this evening and had the pleasure of having QUITE the long discussion with her anti-gun aunt concerning gun ownership, gun control, etc.

While she's not the most vehement anti-gunner I've ever talked to - actually sees ownership as a right, said she didn't want more legislation but still bitched about gun laws anyway so I don't know - but she wants licensing to buy, and registration and, and, and... you get the idea. Essentially her biggest thing is that she maintains that guns do more harm than good... she's very concerned about "the children" this one...

Help me set her straight with some solid statistics. I told her the ~2 million crimes prevented a year stat, all the usual talking points off the top of my head, but she asked me to e-mail her sources to back up my pro-gun anti-restriction viewpoint and I thought the hive would be able to provide the best ammunition. I know it's all out there but I recently lost all my links in a re-format and I know some of you can point me in the right direction without me having to do a bunch of searching for the best, most up to date stuff.


Thanks in advance...


ETA: And what the fuck is with these liberal women who are so opposed to violence that they wouldn't even defend themselves if being attacked? Asked both this woman and her daughter point blank if they would kill someone who was trying to rape them... option A: get raped, option B: Kill your attacker... both of them refuse to commit to an answer, because they wont say that they're just going to lie there and take it, but oh no they could never kill their attacker because his life is worth just as much as theirs or some insane bullshit.... Oi....
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 11:42:09 PM EST
Whenit comes to libtards, I have come to the conclusion that a 2x4 to the noggin works best.
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 11:44:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/13/2009 11:47:50 PM EST by Jonny712]
Break into her house in the middle of the night, ought to scare some sense into them
Link Posted: 6/13/2009 11:58:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 2:02:00 AM EST by Dutchy556]
Originally Posted By Jonny712:
Break into her house in the middle of the night, ought to scare some sense into them


She did say that maybe she would feel different had anything bad ever actually happened to her... I'm thinking "no fucking shit, tard..."

She literally told me that thinking about or preparing for pretty much anything bad happening is demoralizing, too much effort/too stressful, and a waste of time. We talked about prepping a bit as well (she thinks I'm a survivalist now i'm pretty sure, which I think is funny) and somehow to her the idea of even so much as buying a flat of bottled water and some beans or whatever to keep in the pantry somehow equals living your life in fear. (She'd FREAK if she saw some members preps... )

She's completely 110% libtarded and I don't think that will ever change but she wants stats and I'll give em to her.... I know some of you have links to some really solid stuff (i did too til I lost it all...) who's got something I can't pull out of gunfacts 5.0...?
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 12:00:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dutchy556:
Originally Posted By Jonny712:
Break into her house in the middle of the night, ought to scare some sense into them


She did say that maybe she would feel different had anything bad ever actually happened to her... I'm thinking "no fucking shit, tard..."

She literally told me that thinking about or preparing for pretty much anything bad happening is demoralizing, too much effort/too stressful, and a waste of time. We talked about prepping a bit as well (she thinks I'm a survivalist now i'm pretty sure, which I think is funny) and somehow to her the idea of even so much as buying a flat of bottled water and some beans or whatever to keep in the pantry somehow equals living your life in fear. (She'd FREAK if she saw some members preps... )

She's completely 110% libtarded and I don't think that will ever change but she want's stats and I'll give em to her.... I know some of you have links to some really solid stuff (i did too til I lost it all...) who's got something I can't pull out of gunfacts 5.0...?


Google this

On Sheep, wolves and sheepdogs
by david grossman
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 12:14:42 AM EST
I've read On sheep..... several times... This woman is in such incredible denial concerning the possibility of negative events in her life she is like the UBER-sheep. for some reason I just never cease to be surprised by people like this.

I know it's a lost cause but in situations like this I can't help but think that these people, as in denial as they are, still must have to ability to reason somewhere deep down in there...
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 12:48:44 AM EST
First, teach her that the correct spelling is educate...
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 1:26:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 1:29:07 AM EST by Dutchy556]
Originally Posted By eracer:
First, teach her that the correct spelling is educate...


LMAO... I was going for "Edjumicate" but then realized that I didn't know how to properly misspell educate to my own satisfaction, and... yeah, oops...


Definitely some major failing on my part though...

I SWEAR I'm not retarded... well.. not full retarded anyway....



ETA: Fixed, so I don't get a million more well deserved replies from the spelling brigade, but for the record I failed to see "Edjucate" as a typo before hitting submit... That's right folks, and I went to college and everything...
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 1:34:09 AM EST
Tell her to follow with every internet search engine she can come up with the Dr. William Petit and family case in Cheshire, CT. Sick repeat offender felons on probation aren't going to let you live as an eyewitness!!!!
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 1:34:10 AM EST
As with just about all political positions, it isn't something people look at with a dispassionate, purely rational clean slate on the basis of numbers alone.

The aim is not to 'educate' people that disagree with gun rights, it is to convince them.

The problem is what they believe, not what they know.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 1:48:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By azmjs:
As with just about all political positions, it isn't something people look at with a dispassionate, purely rational clean slate on the basis of numbers alone.

The aim is not to 'educate' people that disagree with gun rights, it is to convince them.

The problem is what they believe, not what they know.


Very true.

MANY people look cold hard facts in the face and ignore them. Facts that they know to be true - and just don't care.

Just shy of a lifestyle and immediate circle of friends change, this woman will never change her mind... unless as she said herself, something happens to her drastic enough to convince her otherwise.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 2:00:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 2:01:15 AM EST by Dutchy556]
Originally Posted By azmjs:
As with just about all political positions, it isn't something people look at with a dispassionate, purely rational clean slate on the basis of numbers alone.

The aim is not to 'educate' people that disagree with gun rights, it is to convince them.

The problem is what they believe, not what they know.


Well I'm trying to at least convince her that guns aren't evil. Getting her to acknowledge that they are in fact useful tools that increase your chances of coming away from a violent encounter unharmed (among other uses) would be nice too...


Originally Posted By CouncilOfDave:

MANY people look cold hard facts in the face and ignore them. Facts that they know to be true - and just don't care.

Just shy of a lifestyle and immediate circle of friends change, this woman will never change her mind... unless as she said herself, something happens to her drastic enough to convince her otherwise.


Yeah, most probably a lost cause and I have no reason at all to care... really I think bickering with her just got me all riled up and now I just want the damn moonbat to admit that I'm right... I just hate not "winning" a debate...

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 2:04:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dutchy556:
Originally Posted By azmjs:
As with just about all political positions, it isn't something people look at with a dispassionate, purely rational clean slate on the basis of numbers alone.

The aim is not to 'educate' people that disagree with gun rights, it is to convince them.

The problem is what they believe, not what they know.


Well I'm trying to at least convince her that guns aren't evil. Getting her to acknowledge that they are in fact useful tools that increase your chances of coming away from a violent encounter unharmed (among other uses) would be nice too...


Originally Posted By CouncilOfDave:

MANY people look cold hard facts in the face and ignore them. Facts that they know to be true - and just don't care.

Just shy of a lifestyle and immediate circle of friends change, this woman will never change her mind... unless as she said herself, something happens to her drastic enough to convince her otherwise.


Yeah, most probably a lost cause and I have no reason at all to care... really I think bickering with her just got me all riled up and now I just want the damn moonbat to admit that I'm right... I just hate not "winning" a debate...



THAT, I can relate with.
http://www.gunfacts.info/
Best PDF I've seen in a long time. Hope it helps, then.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 2:22:18 AM EST
What you need there is a band of midget ninjas with plastic wiffle ball bats to work the left side over and make the right wish it had a gun! It works, I have seen it, but ninjas are all too tall lately so good luck on that search.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 2:23:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dutchy556:
Originally Posted By azmjs:
As with just about all political positions, it isn't something people look at with a dispassionate, purely rational clean slate on the basis of numbers alone.

The aim is not to 'educate' people that disagree with gun rights, it is to convince them.

The problem is what they believe, not what they know.


Well I'm trying to at least convince her that guns aren't evil. Getting her to acknowledge that they are in fact useful tools that increase your chances of coming away from a violent encounter unharmed (among other uses) would be nice too...


Originally Posted By CouncilOfDave:

MANY people look cold hard facts in the face and ignore them. Facts that they know to be true - and just don't care.

Just shy of a lifestyle and immediate circle of friends change, this woman will never change her mind... unless as she said herself, something happens to her drastic enough to convince her otherwise.


Yeah, most probably a lost cause and I have no reason at all to care... really I think bickering with her just got me all riled up and now I just want the damn moonbat to admit that I'm right... I just hate not "winning" a debate...



Yup, but, when was the last time you had your mind changed about something you believe so strongly just by having a bunch of numbers and statistics shown to you?

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 2:24:51 AM EST
Or, maybe try the great John Lott's book, More Guns Less Crime!
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 2:28:17 AM EST
Remind her that something like 45,000 Americans die every year in car accidents.

Show her what happened after Katrina.

A lot can happen in that 5 min "respone time."

The majority of the time Americans do not even need to fire a gun for it to protect them.

Licensing and regristration only have one purpose............eventual confiscation........which leads to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot, etc.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 2:35:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By nick1983:
Remind her that something like 45,000 Americans die every year in car accidents.

Show her what happened after Katrina.

A lot can happen in that 5 min "respone time."

The majority of the time Americans do not even need to fire a gun for it to protect them.

Licensing and regristration only have one purpose............eventual confiscation........which leads to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot, etc.


You were doing so well, until you got to the end.

It's a lie to say that registration and licensing have only "one purpose" and that that purpose is confiscation. And then you go completely off the deep end with the hitler/stalin/etc comment.

Licensing and registration have many purposes, much more benign than confiscation.

If you jump to ridiculous conclusions, you'll look crazy and you won't convince the person you're supposed to convince.

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 4:31:36 AM EST
http://www.gunfacts.info/
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 4:47:04 AM EST
Ask her if she'd rather fight off a 300 lb rapist with a phone set to speed-dial 911, a can of pepper spray with an effective range of 5-6 feet and the hope it'll phase him, or a 9mm pistol with 15+1 capacity. If she says either of the first two, then write her off. She's beyond hope and probably the only thing that will change her mind will be a sudden and horrific crime to her person.

If she says the latter, then ask her if she should should have to wait 7 days before being able to defend herself, or whether she should HAVE to be approved by the gov't to be able to have a gun for protection, etc...

Sounds like she's the kind of person who thinks that if they got in their car, went driving down the road at night, and turned off the lights while going 55 mph they'd be just fine. Heck... since they can't see anything then of course there's nothing there to harm them. Cliffs, trees, deer in the road, curves... since she can't see it, then it must not be there.

Rapists, muggers, murderers, thieves, etc... she refuses to prepare for them, so they must just not be there. That seems like her attitude. Denial is definitely something that most sheep hold fast to. They simply refuse to believe reality.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 5:29:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 5:30:50 AM EST by SimonPhoto]

Originally Posted By azmjs:
Originally Posted By nick1983:
Remind her that something like 45,000 Americans die every year in car accidents.

Show her what happened after Katrina.

A lot can happen in that 5 min "respone time."

The majority of the time Americans do not even need to fire a gun for it to protect them.

Licensing and regristration only have one purpose............eventual confiscation........which leads to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot, etc.


You were doing so well, until you got to the end.

It's a lie to say that registration and licensing have only "one purpose" and that that purpose is confiscation. And then you go completely off the deep end with the hitler/stalin/etc comment.

Licensing and registration have many purposes, much more benign than confiscation.

If you jump to ridiculous conclusions, you'll look crazy and you won't convince the person you're supposed to convince.


Name a society that registered weapons and then proceeded to gain freedom.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 5:35:50 AM EST
I had a friend who was anti-gun. Right up until some son of a bitch broke into her home and raped her in her own bed in the middle of the night. Now she's the only hippie chick who sleeps with a .45 under her pillow that I know.

Sometimes it takes a traumatic event to change someone's mind-she's now a full supporter of the Second-to the point of believing that ANY restrictions on firearms ownership are wrong.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 5:44:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dutchy556:
ETA: And what the fuck is with these liberal women who are so opposed to violence that they wouldn't even defend themselves if being attacked? Asked both this woman and her daughter point blank if they would kill someone who was trying to rape them... option A: get raped, option B: Kill your attacker... both of them refuse to commit to an answer, because they wont say that they're just going to lie there and take it, but oh no they could never kill their attacker because his life is worth just as much as theirs or some insane bullshit.... Oi....


Who's going to cum first? the Rapist or the Cop?

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 5:47:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 5:48:14 AM EST by Suuko]
Originally Posted By azmjs:

You were doing so well, until you got to the end.

It's a lie to say that registration and licensing have only "one purpose" and that that purpose is confiscation. And then you go completely off the deep end with the hitler/stalin/etc comment.

Licensing and registration have many purposes, much more benign than confiscation.

If you jump to ridiculous conclusions, you'll look crazy and you won't convince the person you're supposed to convince.



This is the most ridiculous post I've seen here...
Any country that has EVER registered guns has confiscated some or all at a later date.

Any "other" purpose is merely to turn those people who dont believe in confiscation.

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 6:38:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By azmjs:
Originally Posted By nick1983:
Remind her that something like 45,000 Americans die every year in car accidents.

Show her what happened after Katrina.

A lot can happen in that 5 min "respone time."

The majority of the time Americans do not even need to fire a gun for it to protect them.

Licensing and regristration only have one purpose............eventual confiscation........which leads to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot, etc.


You were doing so well, until you got to the end.

It's a lie to say that registration and licensing have only "one purpose" and that that purpose is confiscation. And then you go completely off the deep end with the hitler/stalin/etc comment.

Licensing and registration have many purposes, much more benign than confiscation.

If you jump to ridiculous conclusions, you'll look crazy and you won't convince the person you're supposed to convince.




A RIGHT IS A RIGHT! The 2nd A affirms our right to keep and bear arms without government interference, as the 1st does to affirm your right to post on the internet. Historically totalitarian regimes went after freedom of the press and freedom to keep and bear arms at the same time.

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 6:48:43 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dutchy556:
Originally Posted By Jonny712:
Break into her house in the middle of the night, ought to scare some sense into them


She did say that maybe she would feel different had anything bad ever actually happened to her... I'm thinking "no fucking shit, tard..."

She literally told me that thinking about or preparing for pretty much anything bad happening is demoralizing, too much effort/too stressful, and a waste of time. We talked about prepping a bit as well (she thinks I'm a survivalist now i'm pretty sure, which I think is funny) and somehow to her the idea of even so much as buying a flat of bottled water and some beans or whatever to keep in the pantry somehow equals living your life in fear. (She'd FREAK if she saw some members preps... )

She's completely 110% libtarded and I don't think that will ever change but she wants stats and I'll give em to her.... I know some of you have links to some really solid stuff (i did too til I lost it all...) who's got something I can't pull out of gunfacts 5.0...?


My mom is kind of the same way. She won't accept the idea of prepping for anything besides a hurricane (and that involves buying a couple cans of soup and corn or some other B.S. a few weeks before hurricane season starts) and says anything past that she doesn't want to live through anyways.

I'm calling bullshit on that... I bet when it came down to it she'd come outta the gate and do what's necessary.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:07:31 AM EST
Originally Posted By Tomtbo:
Originally Posted By azmjs:
Originally Posted By nick1983:
Remind her that something like 45,000 Americans die every year in car accidents.

Show her what happened after Katrina.

A lot can happen in that 5 min "respone time."

The majority of the time Americans do not even need to fire a gun for it to protect them.

Licensing and regristration only have one purpose............eventual confiscation........which leads to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot, etc.


You were doing so well, until you got to the end.

It's a lie to say that registration and licensing have only "one purpose" and that that purpose is confiscation. And then you go completely off the deep end with the hitler/stalin/etc comment.

Licensing and registration have many purposes, much more benign than confiscation.

If you jump to ridiculous conclusions, you'll look crazy and you won't convince the person you're supposed to convince.




A RIGHT IS A RIGHT! The 2nd A affirms our right to keep and bear arms without government interference, as the 1st does to affirm your right to post on the internet. Historically totalitarian regimes went after freedom of the press and freedom to keep and bear arms at the same time.



The second amendment doesn't mention anything about government interference.

The second amendment prohibits the government from preventing us from keeping and bearing arms.

It can interfere so long as it does not prevent.

Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:10:50 AM EST
Originally Posted By azmjs:
Originally Posted By Tomtbo:
Originally Posted By azmjs:
Originally Posted By nick1983:
Remind her that something like 45,000 Americans die every year in car accidents.

Show her what happened after Katrina.

A lot can happen in that 5 min "respone time."

The majority of the time Americans do not even need to fire a gun for it to protect them.

Licensing and regristration only have one purpose............eventual confiscation........which leads to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot, etc.


You were doing so well, until you got to the end.

It's a lie to say that registration and licensing have only "one purpose" and that that purpose is confiscation. And then you go completely off the deep end with the hitler/stalin/etc comment.

Licensing and registration have many purposes, much more benign than confiscation.

If you jump to ridiculous conclusions, you'll look crazy and you won't convince the person you're supposed to convince.




A RIGHT IS A RIGHT! The 2nd A affirms our right to keep and bear arms without government interference, as the 1st does to affirm your right to post on the internet. Historically totalitarian regimes went after freedom of the press and freedom to keep and bear arms at the same time.



The second amendment doesn't mention anything about government interference.

The second amendment prohibits the government from preventing us from keeping and bearing arms.

It can interfere so long as it does not prevent.



It actually prohibits the government from "infringing" on the right to bear arms.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:14:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By InjunJoe:
Originally Posted By azmjs:
Originally Posted By Tomtbo:
Originally Posted By azmjs:
Originally Posted By nick1983:
Remind her that something like 45,000 Americans die every year in car accidents.

Show her what happened after Katrina.

A lot can happen in that 5 min "respone time."

The majority of the time Americans do not even need to fire a gun for it to protect them.

Licensing and regristration only have one purpose............eventual confiscation........which leads to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot, etc.


You were doing so well, until you got to the end.

It's a lie to say that registration and licensing have only "one purpose" and that that purpose is confiscation. And then you go completely off the deep end with the hitler/stalin/etc comment.

Licensing and registration have many purposes, much more benign than confiscation.

If you jump to ridiculous conclusions, you'll look crazy and you won't convince the person you're supposed to convince.




A RIGHT IS A RIGHT! The 2nd A affirms our right to keep and bear arms without government interference, as the 1st does to affirm your right to post on the internet. Historically totalitarian regimes went after freedom of the press and freedom to keep and bear arms at the same time.



The second amendment doesn't mention anything about government interference.

The second amendment prohibits the government from preventing us from keeping and bearing arms.

It can interfere so long as it does not prevent.



It actually prohibits the government from "infringing" on the right to bear arms.


Correct, and we can understand the word "infringe" one of two ways.

Either this means that the government can never place any restriction of any kind on anything related to keeping and bearing weapons, or else it can mean the government cannot prevent people from keeping and bearing weapons.

The first option flies in the face of common sense and also historical precedent and also the general notion that the rights guaranteed by the constitution are not absolute irrespective of any circumstance.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:14:54 AM EST
Gun control is wrong on two main fronts.

1. The assumption that all guns can be rounded up and done away with is pure STUPID. As long as evil people will have guns, good people MUST have the right to have them as well. So an all out ban or registration will only affect the good guys.
2. Tyranny from teh govt...if all the guns are rounded up (even the ones from evil doers) then ONLY the govt. will ahve them. This is also a bad scenario...though not as bad as the evil people having them with an unarmed populace.

If we could recreate heaven on earth, where there was no evil or greed...then giving up our guns would be OK with me. Since this WILL NEVER HAPPEN...I am keeping mine.

/thread
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:21:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:22:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:23:17 AM EST
To the hardcore anti, the concept that guns are bad and firearm ownership is wrong, is not a fact.

It is a belief; an article of faith.

You cannot use facts to convince them otherwise, any more than you could use facts to dissuade someone from their belief in God.

A person who just didn't know much about guns, sure.

However, a "true believer"? You're wasting your time.



Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:32:40 AM EST
I always find it funny how liberals will want you to provide sources to back up your claims but when they are asked for sources they never deliver. Hmmm...

Kiddies are more likely to die in a swimming pool than accidentally shoot/kill themselves or another person unintentionally.

Liberals want the world to be the sugar gumdrop forest just behind the candy cane mountains. All their "logic" is based upon emotions and current times. If there was a shooting at a school yesterday, they want to ban guns but if an woman killed an attacker who wanted to rape and rob her then they would possibly amend that woman and loosen on gun control.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:37:28 AM EST
Show her this.


Raging against self defense.

http://www.vcdl.org/new/raging.htm
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:37:45 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:38:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By Gravity_Tester:
I had a friend who was anti-gun. Right up until some son of a bitch broke into her home and raped her in her own bed in the middle of the night. Now she's the only hippie chick who sleeps with a .45 under her pillow that I know.

Sometimes it takes a traumatic event to change someone's mind-she's now a full supporter of the Second-to the point of believing that ANY restrictions on firearms ownership are wrong.


So true
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:42:16 AM EST
Originally Posted By Tomtbo:
A RIGHT IS A RIGHT! The 2nd A affirms our right to keep and bear arms without government interference, as the 1st does to affirm your right to post on the internet. Historically totalitarian regimes went after freedom of the press and freedom to keep and bear arms at the same time.


I agree that registration could lead to confiscation. Whether that would be a month down the road or 3 generations down the road no one knows. But people who believe to their core that "guns kill people" are not going to be swayed by that statement. They will see you as another right wing nut job who is clinging to your guns and religion.

Read "Rules For Radicals", they will ridicule you to make you look like a fool and uncreditable.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:43:57 AM EST
Originally Posted By azmjs:
The second amendment doesn't mention anything about government interference.

The second amendment prohibits the government from preventing us from keeping and bearing arms.

It can interfere so long as it does not prevent.


Or if the government sees them as a government given "responsibility" as they seem to be doing now.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:28:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dutchy556:
Originally Posted By eracer:
First, teach her that the correct spelling is educate...


LMAO... I was going for "Edjumicate" but then realized that I didn't know how to properly misspell educate to my own satisfaction, and... yeah, oops...


Definitely some major failing on my part though...

I SWEAR I'm not retarded... well.. not full retarded anyway....



ETA: Fixed, so I don't get a million more well deserved replies from the spelling brigade, but for the record I failed to see "Edjucate" as a typo before hitting submit... That's right folks, and I went to college and everything...


Hey, we all do it. And I'm not a spelling nazi. Really. I just couldn't resist that one.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:30:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By runcible:
To the hardcore anti, the concept that guns are bad and firearm ownership is wrong, is not a fact.

It is a belief; an article of faith.

You cannot use facts to convince them otherwise, any more than you could use facts to dissuade someone from their belief in God.

A person who just didn't know much about guns, sure.

However, a "true believer"? You're wasting your time.





This says a lot. However, miracles do happen from time to time.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 8:32:09 AM EST
Just go to the GOA website and look for their 2004 fact list. They have statistics (and unlike the Brady Bunch, they don't make shit up; they even include sources for all statistics, mainly the FBI and Department of Justice.) coming out the ass.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 12:00:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 12:04:24 PM EST by Dutchy556]
Thanks for the responses all! While I realize that most likely all the data in the world about firearms wont change her mind, I hope that maybe I can, as one poster mentioned, plant a seed and hope she eventually comes around. She's not a hardcore anti- true believer, she's just majorly in denial. Why I care about what a friend's aunt thinks I really don't know but I guess one less person rallying behind the anti-gun cause is always a good thing if I can pull off the whole seed planting bit...

That Raging Against Self Defense article was great by the way - I had not read that, and I think it describes the anti-gun mindset quite well.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 3:35:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/14/2009 3:39:14 PM EST by Skibane]
One more suggested essay, by Dave Kopel and friends: A World Without Guns

An excerpt:

Finally, for the first time, a gun-free world is truly within our grasp — and it's time to see what man hath wrought. And for that, all we have to do is take a look back at the kind of world our ancestors lived in.

To say that life in the pre-gunpowder world was violent would be an understatement. Land travel, especially over long distances, was fraught with danger from murderers, robbers, and other criminals. Most women couldn't protect themselves from rape, except by granting unlimited sexual access to one male in exchange for protection from other males.

Back then, weapons depended on muscle power. Advances in weaponry primarily magnified the effect of muscle power. The stronger one is, the better one's prospects for fighting up close with an edged weapon like a sword or a knife, or at a distance with a bow or a javelin (both of which require strong arms). The superb ability of such "old-fashioned" edged weapons to inflict carnage on innocents was graphically demonstrated by the stabbing deaths of eight second graders on June 8, 2001, by former school clerk Mamoru Takuma in gun-free Osaka, Japan.

When it comes to muscle power, young men usually win over women, children, and the elderly. It was warriors who dominated society in gun-free feudal Europe, and a weak man usually had to resign himself to settle on a life of toil and obedience in exchange for a place within the castle walls when evil was afoot.
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To imagine a world with no guns is to imagine a world in which the strong rule the weak, in which women are dominated by men, and in which minorities are easily abused or mass-murdered by majorities. Practically speaking, a firearm is the only weapon that allows a weaker person to defend himself from a larger, stronger group of attackers, and to do so at a distance. As George Orwell observed, a weapon like a rifle "gives claws to the weak."

The failure of imagination among people who yearn for a gun-free world is their naive assumption that getting rid of claws will get rid of the desire to dominate and kill. They fail to acknowledge the undeniable fact that when the weak are deprived of claws (or firearms), the strong will have access to other weapons, including sheer muscle power. A gun-free world would be much more dangerous for women, and much safer for brutes and tyrants.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 6:52:33 PM EST
When the chips are down, these are the people that will die first. They are the kind that lined up in straight lines and marched onto the trains, marched off and went left or right as directed, went silently into the gas chambers, or stood naked on the edge of pits waiting to be gunned down.

They cannot be saved. They won't even save themselves.

They are passively suicidal.
Link Posted: 6/14/2009 7:36:02 PM EST
Not possible Dutchy....Liberals lack the gene that gives humans common sense.
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