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Posted: 8/18/2004 12:24:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 6:34:54 PM EST by jnewt]
Due to current events in my life I am getting ride of a few hobbies ($) and my firearms hobby is going to take a big hit here. I am thining down to two weapons, a pistol for carry and a SHTF rifle. Sad, yes but I dont want to get into that... anyway, here is the scenario:

If a man could have only one rifle and that rifles primary duty would be as a SHTF rifle, able to kill large animals for food and used in defence of family and home, rifle would need to be good in a brushy enviroment as well as the open flat ground out to say 400-500 yards. What rifle and caliber of the following would you pick and why?

AR-15, 5.56mm standard 20" A2
AK-47, 7.62x39mm
AK-74, 5.45x39mm
PTR91, 7.62x51
M1A, 7.62x51
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:25:32 PM EST
30-06. Other then that, A Vepr AK-47 in 7.62x39mm or .308, your choice.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:26:18 PM EST
need a poll...in the meantime, I can't imagine only having one rifle. One AR? make it an m4gery....with a bolt gun for longer-range duties.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:28:11 PM EST
How do you set up a poll and you can have only one rifle...
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:28:43 PM EST
SR-25 :-D
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:29:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By jnewt:
Due to current envents in my life I am getting ride of a few hobbies ($) and my firearms hobby is going to take a big hit here. I am thining down to two weapons, a pistol for carry and a SHTF rifle. Sad, yes but I dont want to get into that... anyway, here is the scenario:

If a man could have only one rifle and that rifles primary duty would be as a SHTF rifle, able to kill large animals for food and used in defence of family and home, rifle would need to be good in a brushy enviroment as well as the open flat ground out to say 400-500 yards. What rifle and caliber of the following would you pick and why?

AR-15, 5.56mm standard 20" A2
AK-47, 7.62x39mm
AK-74, 5.45x39mm
HK91, 7.62x51



And make it a Colt.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:30:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:30:58 PM EST by DK-Prof]
Rifle: M1 Garand
Pistol: 1911A1


I'd consider an AR only if I had to hump large distances carrying everything, and expected to use a lot of ammo fighting people (and then I'd go with a 16" pencil barrel). For most SHTF situations, I think that's unlikely.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:30:57 PM EST
One rifle? Of the ones you listed, only the HK would fit the bill.

(1) AK-47s are great but not very accurate (to the distances you indicated)

(2) AR-15s are great but I have concerns for the round out to that distance (the hot 77gr stuff notwithstanding)

(3) AK-74s, just don't know enough about them. I assume it's a combination of (1) and (2) above

(4) HK 91., I have no trigger time on one of these but assuming it's built to high quality and is reliable and accurate, the round is solid.

One question, why didn't you include the M1A? (assuming no quality problems)
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:32:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:35:54 PM EST by motown_steve]
AR-15, 5.56 20" A2 for the following reasons:

1. 5.56 ammuniton is still readily available, cheap and relatively light. You can easily stockpile several thousand rounds to keep for any eventaulities, they can be easily transported, and it will not break you. I recently paid about $97 from a local gun shop for 500 rounds of XM193.

2. Contrary to what many nay-sayers on this board seem to believe, 5.56 is an adequate round for "stopping aggression" in survival scenarios.

3. The 20' barrel is optimal for use with the 5.56 round. You will be able to achieve maximum fragmentation of the projectile to the greatest distance.

4. All of the other reasons listed in the choosing a survival rifle section.

Stick with your AR15!

ETA...

Missed the 400-500 yards stipulation. In that case the .308 HK-91 will be your best bet, although I believe that the HK-91 is still only effective out to about 300 yards. I don't know that anything you listed would be "good" out to 400-500 yards.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:32:59 PM EST
.308 FAL

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:33:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By macman37:

(1) AK-47s are great but not very accurate (to the distances you indicated)




The Vepr's are a good rifle, and in .308 very accurate. Even the 7.62 is a decent gun, and should hold 400 yards well although I havent tried a 7.62x39mm at that range. That assumption comes from extending the 100 yard groups out to 400 yards.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:33:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By macman37:
One rifle? Of the ones you listed, only the HK would fit the bill.

(1) AK-47s are great but not very accurate (to the distances you indicated)

(2) AR-15s are great but I have concerns for the round out to that distance (the hot 77gr stuff notwithstanding)

(3) AK-74s, just don't know enough about them. I assume it's a combination of (1) and (2) above

(4) HK 91., I have no trigger time on one of these but assuming it's built to high quality and is reliable and accurate, the round is solid.

One question, why didn't you include the M1A? (assuming no quality problems)




I should have included the M1A... I have been looking at them as well.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:34:34 PM EST
M1A rifle with a ton of 20rd mags. The more I shoot mine the more I love that sumbitch.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:35:36 PM EST
A good bolt action for those times that you have to "reach out and touch something" should be included in your plans as well. Limiting yourself to just a single short/mid range auto-loader is cutting down on your options too much (IMHO).

An M1A is a good choice if you HAD to have only one however.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:36:21 PM EST
In a survival situation, the 5.56 is the LAST caliber size I would grab. I'd want something bigger. .243 minimum, preferably .308 or 30-06.
In a survival situation you have to plan on taking any game in North America. I sure dont wanna draw down on an elk or moose with a 5.56, it will be an effort in tracking.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:36:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:
.308 FAL





That one.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:37:04 PM EST
Only have the funds for one rifle, a couple thousand rounds and mags.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:37:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
AR-15, 5.56 20" A2 for the following reasons:

1. 5.56 ammuniton is still readily available, cheap and relatively light. You can easily stockpile several thousand rounds to keep for any eventaulities, they can be easily transported, and it will not break you. I recently paid about $97 from a local gun shop for 500 rounds of XM193.

2. Contrary to what many nay-sayers on this board seem to believe, 5.56 is an adequate round for "stopping aggression" in survival scenarios.

3. The 20' barrel is optimal for use with the 5.56 round. You will be able to achieve maximum fragmentation of the projectile to the greatest distance.

4. All of the other reasons listed in the choosing a survival rifle section.

Stick with your AR15!

ETA...

Missed the 400-500 yards stipulation. In that case the .308 HK-91 will be your best bet, although I believe that the HK-91 is still only effective out to about 300 yards. I don't know that anything you listed would be "good" out to 400-500 yards.



A 20 FOOT barrel?
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:39:00 PM EST
Is that a real HK91 or a Century Clone?

If it's a Century Clone and if I were in your circumstances I'd sell everything but the M1A. Maybe except for the AK74, you can replace the other ones rather cheaply once money becomes available. Those M1A's are expensive, I'd hold on to it.

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:39:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By jnewt:
Only have the funds for one rifle, a couple thousand rounds and mags.



If that is the criteria I'd have to lean toward the FAL first and the AK47 second.

I don't have any trigger time on a FAL but hear only good things about them. Mags are cheap(ish) and surplus ammo is too.

I doubt you could go wrong with either of those two.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:41:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:42:34 PM EST by Sturmwehr]

Originally Posted By wedge1082:

And make it a Colt.



Why don't you just tell him to burn his cash? He might get more joy out of it and it might last longer than buying the Colt.

Colts are over-rated, now. If you go on most boards, you'll see that Colt owners have gotten some horrible quality coming out after the AWB.

Save yourself money and get something that was looked over. A Bushmaster or Cavalry Arms will suit you just fine (also, CA has an EXCELLENT warranty on their guns).
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:41:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By drobs:
Is that a real HK91 or a Century Clone?

If it's a Century Clone and if I were in your circumstances I'd sell everything but the M1A. Maybe except for the AK74, you can replace the other ones rather cheaply once money becomes available. Those M1A's are expensive, I'd hold on to it.




It would be a PTR91... I will correct that above

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:43:39 PM EST
Actually, the best SURVIVAL (NOT SHTF gunbattle) weapon would be a bow or crossbow. Silent, accurate, definately deadly and most importantly? If you have a good knife you'll never run out of ammo long as you can find a tree and have some time. Bow string breaks? Replaceable as well. Break the bow? Find another tree.....
All parts are easily replaceable right from nature itself. Granted, in an escape/gunbattle sort of situation i surely dont want a bow, but out in the woods in a survival setting there very feasible
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:44:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By jnewt:
Only have the funds for one rifle, a couple thousand rounds and mags.




I'm not joking about the M1 Garand - get one from the CMP at fraction of the price of an AR, and an even smaller fraction of the price of a good-quality FAL or HK91.


If price is an object, and the 8-round clips for the garand worry you, then I'd recommend an quality AK clone, that can probably be had for $300-400. The 7.62x39 is a decent "do everything" round (but don't expect to be hitting things at extreme range, or penetrating through a lot) and you cannot beat the reliability.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:52:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Actually, the best SURVIVAL (NOT SHTF gunbattle) weapon would be a bow or crossbow. Silent, accurate, definately deadly and most importantly? If you have a good knife you'll never run out of ammo long as you can find a tree and have some time. Bow string breaks? Replaceable as well. Break the bow? Find another tree.....
All parts are easily replaceable right from nature itself. Granted, in an escape/gunbattle sort of situation i surely dont want a bow, but out in the woods in a survival setting there very feasible



And now that he have heard from the Swiss Family Robinson, we'll be moving on....
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:54:38 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:56:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 12:59:06 PM EST by chapperjoe]
DEFINITELY vulcan. Their ads are THE COOLEST!



Back to reality though,
Why not get a 6.8 upper - that would seem to be the good compromise between light, handy and accurate. though ammo would be a bitch unless you horded it before SHTF.

Or simply get two upper sand one lower, obviously cheaper than two rifles and you can tell the wife, "legally, it's only ONE rifle!"
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:58:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By macman37:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:
AR-15, 5.56 20" A2 for the following reasons:

1. 5.56 ammuniton is still readily available, cheap and relatively light. You can easily stockpile several thousand rounds to keep for any eventaulities, they can be easily transported, and it will not break you. I recently paid about $97 from a local gun shop for 500 rounds of XM193.

2. Contrary to what many nay-sayers on this board seem to believe, 5.56 is an adequate round for "stopping aggression" in survival scenarios.

3. The 20' barrel is optimal for use with the 5.56 round. You will be able to achieve maximum fragmentation of the projectile to the greatest distance.

4. All of the other reasons listed in the choosing a survival rifle section.

Stick with your AR15!

ETA...

Missed the 400-500 yards stipulation. In that case the .308 HK-91 will be your best bet, although I believe that the HK-91 is still only effective out to about 300 yards. I don't know that anything you listed would be "good" out to 400-500 yards.



A 20 FOOT barrel?



It's a CREW SERVED AR!
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:59:26 PM EST
and the spelling/detail nazis have arrived!
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:01:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

Why not get a 6.8 upper



I believe 6.8 uppers are about $1600 as of late... More than the gun it's on.

Plus, 6.8 ammo is rivaling the cost of .50 Beowulf.

Overall, 6.8 is VERY bad for STHF.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:04:22 PM EST
AR-15, 5.56mm standard 20" A2
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:13:03 PM EST
Keep everything you have, sell your car, and get a beater.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:16:31 PM EST
the dcm garand sounds like a good idea. ammo on garand clips can be had fairly cheap right now. check ammoman.com or look in shotgun news.
the fal and m1a are both reliable, i think the m1a a little more so. the m1a is more accurate if you get a good one. shop around for a used one. i've heard that the s.n. prefix of 64 or 65 is where the quaility control became an issue. i've seen cheap 20 rnd mags lately too, but have not heard any thing about their quality. if they had issues you might could tinker with the feed lips.

I have a cetme and a g-3. both from century. i'm keeping the cetme and getting rid of the g-3. i've had to play with both but for the price of the cetme, i can see it. the g-3 clone was a disappointment. my cetme with actually shoot 1'' to 2'' groups @100. you can even stretch it out and have fun with it. the g-3 clone wont. but i wouldnt get either one for a shtf rifle.
i have a romanian ak and a bolt gun for said situations.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:21:18 PM EST
M1A, 7.62x51, OR an AR in one of the larger calibers. 6.8Rem.SPC would be good if you don't mind waiting for ammo or you can get what I'm going to build, the .300 Fireball. While not being a "flat shooting" ctg. it does work out to 200 yrds. or so on deer size game and uses common 30cal. bullets. Brass and loading data are available and it uses common AR mags. For longer range the 6.8 would have the edge but for everything else the 300 will fill the bill nicely.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:25:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
Actually, the best SURVIVAL (NOT SHTF gunbattle) weapon would be a bow or crossbow. Silent, accurate, definately deadly and most importantly? If you have a good knife you'll never run out of ammo long as you can find a tree and have some time. Bow string breaks? Replaceable as well. Break the bow? Find another tree.....
All parts are easily replaceable right from nature itself. Granted, in an escape/gunbattle sort of situation i surely dont want a bow, but out in the woods in a survival setting there very feasible



And now that he have heard from the Swiss Family Robinson, we'll be moving on....



Say what you want. Bottom line though? My tree house is better then yours......
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 1:28:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sturmwehr:

Originally Posted By chapperjoe:

Why not get a 6.8 upper



I believe 6.8 uppers are about $1600 as of late... More than the gun it's on.

Plus, 6.8 ammo is rivaling the cost of .50 Beowulf.

Overall, 6.8 is VERY bad for STHF.



Model 1 Sales has 6.8 uppers for reasonable($410.00 for a M4 style upper). Ammo is the only problem that I can see and in a SHTF I'd be pickin' up all the weapons of the dudes that I killed anyway so I could always use one of their weapons. Also, you can get a 6.8 upper and a 5.56mm upper and use one lower, that way you'd have a common ctg. and also a ctg. that'd be good for larger game as well.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:06:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By jnewt:

M1A, 7.62x51



Thats the one out of your choices I would keep.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:30:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By Sturmwehr:

Originally Posted By wedge1082:

And make it a Colt.



Why don't you just tell him to burn his cash? He might get more joy out of it and it might last longer than buying the Colt.

Colts are over-rated, now. If you go on most boards, you'll see that Colt owners have gotten some horrible quality coming out after the AWB.

Save yourself money and get something that was looked over. A Bushmaster or Cavalry Arms will suit you just fine (also, CA has an EXCELLENT warranty on their guns).




We're all creatures of our experiences, but I have to disagree with you on Colts-in my experience they're the only ones working like they should. I had one Bushmaster 20" A2 that worked everytime, but I sold it to buy a Colt MT6700. Every other Bushmaster I had, plus other "lessor" brands, had their faults. I've never had a problem with a Colt, I have 3 now.
In answer to this thread, I'd say a 20" Colt A3 for options later should you want them.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:38:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By knightsar:
AR-15, 5.56mm standard 20" A2

Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:40:36 PM EST
something big 20mm min. If shtf your gonna need it.
Hell a bradley as well while where at it.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:42:05 PM EST
of the rifles you listed I would keep the M1A because you did mention the ability to put meat on the table and be good for 500 yards, the .308 packs the kind of punch you need.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:46:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By jnewt:
Due to current envents in my life I am getting ride of a few hobbies ($) and my firearms hobby is going to take a big hit here. I am thining down to two weapons, a pistol for carry and a SHTF rifle. Sad, yes but I dont want to get into that... anyway, here is the scenario:

If a man could have only one rifle and that rifles primary duty would be as a SHTF rifle, able to kill large animals for food and used in defence of family and home, rifle would need to be good in a brushy enviroment as well as the open flat ground out to say 400-500 yards. What rifle and caliber of the following would you pick and why?

AR-15, 5.56mm standard 20" A2
AK-47, 7.62x39mm
AK-74, 5.45x39mm
PTR91, 7.62x51
M1A, 7.62x51



For SHTF I'd choose the AR, my only reservations being the 5.56 mm capability for big game. For big game the 7.62x51 is the only round listed I'd be happy with.

Definitly drop the funky 5.45x39.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 3:55:39 PM EST
NDM-86 in .308. NDM-86

CW
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:12:03 PM EST
In that scenario you speak of, I would pick the AK-47 in 762x39mm. It is a great home defense weapon and can kill large animals but probably not to the ranges you speak of. You would need a special rifle for those distances but would have to compromise in other areas. The AK is dependable as hell. Look at all those third world countries who carry these weapons. They go bang in the dirtiest environments and any simpleton can work on them. The chance of them breaking are pretty small. In a SHTF scenario, I would want a weapon that I know is reliable and lethal. I've taken deer with my SLR-95 but won't be taking no long distance shots. I would be hesitant to take a 400-500 yard shot. You got to know your stuff to hit at that range.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:18:49 PM EST
From your list, M1A. Best overall anti-personnel, big game hunting round.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:20:56 PM EST
You could just about get an AKM in 7.62x39mm and a VEPR in 7.62x51mm for what you'd put into some of the other single rifles. That'd give you the AKM for CQB/plinking and the more powerful VEPR in 308 for hunting, you could even put a scope on it for longer range shooting. Just some more ideas to kick around.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:30:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 4:41:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:
out of that bunch-m1a, personally I'd rather have the AR, but you said hunting large animals



That's the thing that's making it hard to pick just one rifle. Most ctgs. that will take big game are too powerful for CQB/Home defence and most ctgs that work well in a CQB/home defence weapon, while being about to kill a big game animal, aren't really cut out for it. You also want a ctg. that'll be easy to get so that in a SHTF sit. you'll be able to find ammo. I really don't think that any ONE rifle will work perfectly for all of your needs. If deer and smaller, under 200 yrds. would work for you as "big game" then any of the better AK's would be a great choice. If , however, you're looking at larger game then you'll need more ctg. then the 7.62x39mm. If you don't mind stocking up on ammo and handloading and something on the order of the 7.62x39mm would work but you'd like it in an AR platform then check into the .300 Fireball. If , on the other hand you need more power then the 6.8Rem.SPC would be ok. It really depends on how much you have to spend and what you do in the real world with the rifle.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 6:33:49 PM EST
Thanks for all the replys guys... I guess I am leaning toward a nice AK in 7.62 at this point. Any recomendations in the $500-$700 price range?
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 7:55:42 PM EST
For that kind of money you can pick up one of the nice milled reciever AK's. Get a copy of Shotgun News and check it out, then find a local dealer that'll order for you at 10 percent or so and you'll be in business. Good luck and have fun.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 9:15:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/18/2004 9:34:23 PM EST by tatjana]
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