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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/13/2005 10:33:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 10:51:22 AM EDT by CeolMhor]
Guys,

We know that there have been many people railroaded by the ATF for having guns or kits that they determined to be "readily convertible" to something illegal. People like Bob Stewart of Maadi-Griffin and John Glover for example. Well, I'm working on a project that could overturn literally thousands of such unjust convictions, and I need help from you folks.

You've probably head of their various ludicrious justifications, like Shoelaces being machineguns, or 8 hours of machine shop time being "readily convertible". The question is, does the BATFE have any documented procedure for determining what makes something "readily convertible" into a gun or machinegun? Every other federal agency that does testing has clearly defined procedures, which are obviously necessary to make objective conclusions. Ask the FDA for drug-testing procedures, for example, and they'll give them to you.

What we suspect, however, is that the BATFE has no such manual - they use whatever procedures strike an agent's fancy at the moment, and make their conclusions subjectively. If this is the case, then their conclusions about the convertibility of guns in thousands of cases will become tainted evidence, allowing thousands of retrials and ultimately freeing thousands of people fraudulently convicted.

How do we prove it? We need Congressmen to request a copy of the ATF procedures manual from the Congressional Research Service. The CRS of course does not have such a thing on file, and so they will request one from the ATF. When the ATF can't produce it, we have grounds to challenge ATF trial testimony. While this may sound complicated, we're already halfway there! One Congressman has already requested the manual directly from the ATF, and they are desperately trying to get him to formally remove his request...and they might succeed, if we can't bring any more pressure on them. Even just a few Congressmen joining in the request would make it neigh impossible for the ATF to squirm out of the hot seat.

Best of all, this doesn't require Congressmen to do anything so public as introduce legislation, make speeches, or even vote on anything. All they need to do is request the ATF procedures manual - a purely internal matter that won't bring them heat from the media or anti-gun constituents.

Please help out by contacting your Senators and Representatives (contact info: Senators, Reps) and asking them to request the BATF firearm examination procedures manual froom the CRS. This is a chance to make a real difference, by helping real people who have been illegally imprisoned. Please ask your Congressmen to do this...and please let me know what the ATF or CRS tells them.

Thank you!
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 10:37:18 AM EDT
Sounds good. It'd be fantastic to have those guys held accountable to actual regulations. This is a good idea. It's hard for be to believe that they don't have this stuff set in stone already. What a circus!
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 10:38:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CeolMhor:
Guys,

We know that there have been many people railroaded by the ATF for having guns or kits that they determined to be "readily convertible" to something illegal. People like Bob Stewart of Maadi-Griffin and John Glover for example. Well, I'm working on a project that could overturn literally thousands of such unjust convictions, and I need help from you folks.

You've probably head of their various ludicrious justifications, like Shoelaces being machineguns, or 8 hours of machine shop time being "readily convertible ". The question is, does the BATFE have any documented procedure for determining what makes something "readily convertible" into a gun or machinegun? Every other federal agency that does testing has clearly defined procedures, which are obviously necessary to make objective conclusions. Ask the FDA for drug-testing procedures, for example, and they'll give them to you.

What we suspect, however, is that the BATFE has no such manual - they use whatever procedures strike an agent's fancy at the moment, and make their conclusions subjectively. If this is the case, then their conclusions about the convertibility of guns in thousands of cases will become tainted evidence, allowing thousands of retrials and ultimately freeing thousands of people fraudulently convicted.

How do we prove it? We need Congressmen to request a copy of the ATF procedures manual from the Congressional Research Service. The CRS of course does not have such a thing on file, and so they will request one from the ATF. When the ATF can't produce it, we have grounds to challenge ATF trial testimony. While this may sound complicated, we're already halfway there! One Congressman has already requested the manual directly from the ATF, and they are desperately trying to get him to formally remove his request...and they might succeed, if we can't bring any more pressure on them. Even just a few Congressmen joining in the request would make it neigh impossible for the ATF to squirm out of the hot seat.

Best of all, this doesn't require Congressmen to do anything so public as introduce legislation, make speeches, or even vote on anything. All they need to do is request the ATF procedures manual - a purely internal matter that won't bring them heat from the media or anti-gun constituents.

Please help out by contacting your Senators and Representatives (contact info: Senators, Reps) and asking them to request the BATF firearm examination procedures manual. This is a chance to make a real difference, by helping real people who have been illegally imprisoned. Please ask your Congressmen to do this...and please let me know what the ATF or CRS tells them.

Thank you!




Couple of your links do not work?

I am sympathetic but this is grasping at straws is it not? It is like suing for non-destroyed 4473's they admit exists or not allowing the ATF access to dealer records. Efforts are legit but the Gov. will not intervene or help.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 10:40:51 AM EDT
You need to edit your links - you have an extra 'http' in them......
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 10:57:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 10:57:59 AM EDT by jchewie]
Edit your links. I will contact my rep, but won't bother with Levin and Stabmenow
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:11:23 AM EDT



if we had the '86 MG ban overturned, this would be a non-issue. maybe we should focus our efforts there.

p.s.: i'm not trying to be a wise ass.


Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:13:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/13/2005 11:14:15 AM EDT by CeolMhor]
Links have been fixed - sorry 'bout that.

Mattl - I can't say much more at the moment than I already have, but please trust me that this has real potential. Our objective is not to change ATF policy (though that will likely happen as a side effect), but rather to give wrongly convicted citizens legal grounds to challenge their convictions. Proving that 4473s aren't destroyed is futile because there's nothing you can do with that info in court. What we are doing is like demonstrating that the DNA tech who testified about a DNA match had no standard procedure to use in his testing. You know how fast that would get his testimony thrown out? This is the same thing - it will succeed in court because we're not challenging gun laws, but rather basic rules of evidence.

But for that to happen, we need to force the ATF's hand in admitting that they have no procedural manual, and for that we need your help...
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:19:19 AM EDT
Can't you just subpoena it directly from ATF?
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:19:51 AM EDT

Originally Posted By CeolMhor:
Guys,

snip

Thank you!



Interesting idea.
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:33:50 AM EDT
Hardcase,

Suspicion that no manual exists isn't enough to get a new trial for someone convicted by ATF inspection testimony, and without an open case we can't use a subpoena.

A Freedom of Information Act request would theoretically be another route to take, but those can take years to resolve.

Using congressional representatives to pressure the ATF into showing its hand is the fastest and most effective way to get this done. And like I said, this plan is not theoretical -, it's well under way. We have one formal request already submitted by a Congressman, and just need a couple more to keep the pressure on.

Zack3g - I hope you find it interesting enough to pass on to your representatives in Congress...
Link Posted: 9/13/2005 11:35:51 AM EDT
Done
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 6:53:57 AM EDT
Thank you very much to everyone who has contacted their representatives about this.

If anyone is at a loss for exactly how to convey this request to their representatives, please feel free to use this basic form letter:


Hello,

I am trying to obtain a copy of the BATFE's Firearms Testing Procedures
manual. Would you please contact the Congressional Research Service and
request a copy for me? If you are able to get a copy, please email to <email
adress> (if in digital format) or snail-mail to <physical address>. If you
are not able to get a copy, could you please let me know? I would appreciate
any update on your progress.

Thank you in advance,

<name>



Thank you!
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 6:56:49 AM EDT
.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 7:04:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 7:07:48 AM EDT by shotar]
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 7:13:34 AM EDT
Mail sent to Senator Lugar. He WILL follow up on this.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 7:14:35 AM EDT
This appears to have merit.

Sending requests to my CongressCritters, as well.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 7:45:36 AM EDT
I'm going to drop off a written request at my representative's local office this afternoon. It might take a week or three for her to personally see it, but I know from past experience that she'll at least actually read things delivered to her office and she generally takes the time to answer (in a non-form letter manner) questions.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 7:49:35 AM EDT
There was also a guy in Portland who was sent a box of MG parts by ATF, as soon as he signed for them, ATF swarmed him, confiscated his whole shop. The Clinton DOJ pulled out a vehemently anti gun federal judge who retired during the Carter Admin to try the case. Results? Guilty, of course.

I'll try and find his name a specifics.

There was also a case in Ohio where a cop was targeted by ATF, a family pet died and his wife had a miscarrige during the raid.

Problem is, I bet there is no set policy or procedure for this. The guy in Portland overheard an agent in the courthouse hallway claim that he was really good at over-lubricating AR-15 bolts to cause them to slam-fire and had gotten several convictions with it. Former ATF Director John Magaw has stated publically that malfunctioning firearms would never be prosecuted as machinegun violations. Right.

We have also seen that people who lost thier tax stamp paperwork get prosecuted for an unregistered machinegun because ATF will never re-issue tax stamps.

ATF needs a serious enema and house cleaning. Ruby Ridge all started from an ATF sting. I guess there just isn't enough crime to keep them busy. They need to start fabricating crime to justify funding.

Good luck. John McCain is one of my reps. He won't do anything for us and right now, I'm in Ohio right now (but it's not my legal residence) and Mike DeWine (Whine?) is not a friend of gun owners. So I can't do much to assist you, but I'd love to.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 7:51:23 AM EDT
Tag, this one can get very interesting...
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 8:13:12 AM EDT
Done, I sent a letters to everyone I could. (3 different people)
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 10:32:20 AM EDT
Tag.......and done.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 10:36:30 AM EDT
We should all apply for jobs at the BATF. www.atf.treas.gov/jobs/applications.htm
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 11:19:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2005 11:41:58 AM EDT by supra94tt]
I would start by asking them to prove jurisdiction and venue to enforce anything in the 50 republics(upon people-not the state govt's), make sure they send you definition of United States and U.S citizen they use on the forms which we the ignorant sheeple fill out under penalties of perjury without even knowing what we sign for, how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go???
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 1:25:25 PM EDT
Supra,

I know all about that rabbit hole. The problem is that right or wrong, the court system doesn't care. You can be totally, 100% correct and they simply ignore you unless you use arguments that they are willing to accept (like the rules of evidence we're using). It's a travesty, but that's how it is.
Link Posted: 9/14/2005 2:54:14 PM EDT
Just wanted to give you guys another hearty thank-you. Please keep it up - I'm told that your letters, faxes, and emails are being noticed, and making a difference! Our first Congressman has decided to press his request, and we may be able to get the GAO (Government Accounting Office) involved as well.

If you haven't had the chance to help out by sending this request to your representatives, please do so. Every bit helps!
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