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Posted: 3/20/2009 1:10:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2009 1:11:55 PM EDT by Theodoret]
Here is a little critique on the afterlife HERE
Link Posted: 3/20/2009 1:59:18 PM EDT

Honestly ? People believe this ?

Link Posted: 3/20/2009 2:46:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2009 3:59:03 PM EDT by Patmos]
Originally Posted By Theodoret:
Here is a little critique on the afterlife HERE



http://litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/Heaven%2C+Hell%2C+and+the+Afterlife?t=anon
Heaven, Hell, and the Afterlife
The afterlife is something that we all are going to face sooner or later. We all will be going somewhere right after we die, and not everyone has the same destination. It is God's desire that we all go straight to Heaven to be with Him forever, but unfortuately many choose not to. Below are explantions that I have put together of different dwelling places of the afterlife. I have layed out details of these places as directly as possible by providing Scripture, traditional belief, Church teachings, visions from the Saints, etc.

When a person dies their soul goes somewhere. If someone is saved, their soul goes to Heaven and awaits the Resurrection at the end of time where their body and soul will be reunited. If someone is saved but has not dealt with their sins completely after they have been baptized, then their souls will go to Purgatory in order to be cleaned up for Heaven. If a person is unsaved, their soul goes to Hades until the Resurrection at the end of time where they will be raised from the dead and then cast body and soul into Gehenna\Lake of Fire. Click on the links below to read the details.


*My remarks to sits page:
I personally believe that "Purgatory is a myth. It isn't anywhere. Made up story. If a person has reached the age of accountability and has accepted Jesus/the Messiah/Christ that died and atoned for a persons sins by free choose, that person goes to Heaven to be with the father, Holy ghost, and Jesus the triune Lord until that person has a resurrected body in the future that will not spoil at the end of this age. A person that has not accepted Christ for their sins whether Gentile or Jewish/Human beings by free choose, will go to "Sheol-Hades" a Hell like place of lesser punishment for one's unforgiven sins with fallen Angles that have been captured in battles long age fighting against the Lord and his Holy Angles. Both persons, unregenerated humans or Angles that have fallen in grace long ago, at the time of the great white throne judgment after rulings have been made by Jesus, judgment will be done to persons by being throwing them in the lake of fire. Persons that where humans will have resurrected bodies that will not be consumed by flames but the person will be in torment forever in the great pool of fire that will never go out. Fallen Angles will have no physical matter bodies themselves but will be in torment forever for their many crimes against the Lord of Hosts likewise like unregenerated humans.

I am a sinner myself and believe that Jesus is the Messiah/Christ/Son of Man that came into this would almost 2,000 years ago to save what was lost. I am glad that he is my savior.


Theodoret, you may want to read this book: Jay Carty. Play with fire.1994.

Link Posted: 3/20/2009 5:23:13 PM EDT
Patmos,

I used to not believe in Purgatory too, but it is Scriptural and has been believed by Christians for 2000 years, it sure would not be classified as mythical, "debatable" at best. Actually the better term is "rejected by some" because some of the Protestant reformers 1500 years after Christ wanted to find "reasons" to break away from the Church.
Link Posted: 3/20/2009 7:57:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2009 8:02:32 PM EDT by beready]
Originally Posted By Theodoret:
Patmos,

I used to not believe in Purgatory too, but it is Scriptural and has been believed by Christians for 2000 years, it sure would not be classified as mythical, "debatable" at best. Actually the better term is "rejected by some" because some of the Protestant reformers 1500 years after Christ wanted to find "reasons" to break away from the Church.


After looking at your case for Purgatory one of the scriptures you use is 1 Cor. 3:12-15

1 Corinthians 3:8-17 (NKJV)
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building. (this speaks of the saved in Christ.)
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. (the foundition spoken of here is the finished work of Christ crucified)
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (This verse explains what i commented on in verse 10)
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. (since the work here is the work of believer's the Lord will reveal whether the work was done for Him or to be seen in the sight of men)
14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. (Still talking about the saved in Christ)
15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (Here the scriptures say we are still saved)
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? (God can only dwell in the believer who has asked Jesus into their lives. Hence a saved soul.)
17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. (I see only 2 temples here one defiled and one saved,)

Theodoret I would like to give you these scriptures to ponder. I know it is taken from the NKJV, but it still says the same thing in your bible.There is no place in between Heaven or Hell for the believer in Christ.l. Just as the scripture say. Hope this helps. Scripture always defines Scripture.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8 (NKJV)
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
Link Posted: 3/20/2009 8:23:55 PM EDT
beready

I appreciate your reply. I noticed your remarks on the 1 Cor 3 passage, and when you come to verse 15, that is exactly what I see as the the effect of Purgatory, where only the saved go through it, "saved only as through fire." That supports the doctrine fo Purgatory. Purgatory has nothing to do with the unsaved neither does that passage in 1 Cor 3.

As for the passage you gave, I don't see that in any conflict with Purgatory. When a saint's soul is out of the body it is present with the Lord, and if it needs cleaned up before it can enter heaven then that happens on its way to Heaven through Purgatory.
Link Posted: 3/20/2009 11:52:35 PM EDT
Free booklet or PDF download: What Happens After Death?

http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/AD/

Link Posted: 3/24/2009 4:31:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2009 4:32:29 AM EDT by devildoghdj]
Originally Posted By Theodoret:
Patmos,

I used to not believe in Purgatory too, but it is Scriptural and has been believed by Christians for 2000 years, it sure would not be classified as mythical, "debatable" at best. Actually the better term is "rejected by some" because some of the Protestant reformers 1500 years after Christ wanted to find "reasons" to break away from the Church.


I do not belive in Purgatory.

But prior to our Savior's Death & Resurrection the Rightoeus where sent to Abraham's Bossom (Paradise) in SHEOL which was separated from Hades( place of Torment) by great gulf. When Christ died be took the Paradise & the Rightoues from Sheol & the place of torment was left. Some speculate that Sheol is in the center of the earth.

Link Posted: 3/24/2009 5:08:06 AM EDT
My thoughts on purgatory:

If purgatory is place for us to be purified before we get to heaven, then there are some definite problems with it Biblically. Primiarily, I John 3:2-3 which states: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Vs. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he (Christ) is pure."

A person who has placed their faith and trust in Christ, and therefore has the assurance of the resurrection, is already pure. Why? Because they are covered in the blood of Christ! Once a person has been redeemed, they are positionally sanctified in God's eyes. There is no need of a cleansing process before you meet God because Christ already did that for us. What I Cor. 3 is speaking of is the Judgement seat of Christ which will be for the church age saints only.

Basically, just because many "Christians" believed in something for around 1500 years doesn't make something true. The litmus test for whether something is true or not is if it is supported by Scripture, which must be interpreted consistently and accurately (a whole separate can of worms).

Thank God the reformers separated themselves from the Roman Catholic church. If not, we would most likely still be in the dark ages.
Link Posted: 3/24/2009 2:18:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RangerStew:
My thoughts on purgatory:

If purgatory is place for us to be purified before we get to heaven, then there are some definite problems with it Biblically. Primiarily, I John 3:2-3 which states: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Vs. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he (Christ) is pure."

A person who has placed their faith and trust in Christ, and therefore has the assurance of the resurrection, is already pure. Why? Because they are covered in the blood of Christ! Once a person has been redeemed, they are positionally sanctified in God's eyes. There is no need of a cleansing process before you meet God because Christ already did that for us. What I Cor. 3 is speaking of is the Judgement seat of Christ which will be for the church age saints only.

Basically, just because many "Christians" believed in something for around 1500 years doesn't make something true. The litmus test for whether something is true or not is if it is supported by Scripture, which must be interpreted consistently and accurately (a whole separate can of worms).

Thank God the reformers separated themselves from the Roman Catholic church. If not, we would most likely still be in the dark ages.
From your answer it seems that you believe that all your future sins are forgiven once you put your faith in Christ, right? So at conversion you are sanctified from there on out no matter what you do afterwards and there is no need for anything else after that to cleanse you from your sins? That could not be the case since Scripture teaches us that "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1John 1:9) That was written by St. John to those who were already converted. That same message is taught throughout the NT, and it shows that we do need to be cleansed even after conversion, and confession is the instrument that the NT authors give us. The point is this, that you become completely cleansed at conversion (Baptism) and all your sins are washed away, but when you sin after that you still need to deal with those sins, and confession is prescribed by the Bible. But if there are sins that are not dealt with completely then they will be dealt with after you die. If they are mortal then Hell, but if they are not mortal then Purgatory.

Link Posted: 3/24/2009 2:28:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By devildoghdj:
Originally Posted By Theodoret:
Patmos,

I used to not believe in Purgatory too, but it is Scriptural and has been believed by Christians for 2000 years, it sure would not be classified as mythical, "debatable" at best. Actually the better term is "rejected by some" because some of the Protestant reformers 1500 years after Christ wanted to find "reasons" to break away from the Church.


I do not belive in Purgatory.

But prior to our Savior's Death & Resurrection the Rightoeus where sent to Abraham's Bossom (Paradise) in SHEOL which was separated from Hades( place of Torment) by great gulf. When Christ died be took the Paradise & the Rightoues from Sheol & the place of torment was left. Some speculate that Sheol is in the center of the earth.

You are correct about Sheol and Hades and so on. Hades probably is in the center of the earth, at least Scripture seems to indicate that in Ephesians 4:9 and Matthew 12:40.

Link Posted: 3/24/2009 2:46:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/24/2009 2:47:41 PM EDT by vacuumflux]
Originally Posted By Theodoret:
Originally Posted By devildoghdj:
Originally Posted By Theodoret:
Patmos,

I used to not believe in Purgatory too, but it is Scriptural and has been believed by Christians for 2000 years, it sure would not be classified as mythical, "debatable" at best. Actually the better term is "rejected by some" because some of the Protestant reformers 1500 years after Christ wanted to find "reasons" to break away from the Church.


I do not belive in Purgatory.

But prior to our Savior's Death & Resurrection the Rightoeus where sent to Abraham's Bossom (Paradise) in SHEOL which was separated from Hades( place of Torment) by great gulf. When Christ died be took the Paradise & the Rightoues from Sheol & the place of torment was left. Some speculate that Sheol is in the center of the earth.

You are correct about Sheol and Hades and so on. Hades probably is in the center of the earth, at least Scripture seems to indicate that in Ephesians 4:9 and Matthew 12:40.



All that really means is that "Hades" as you call it, is within a smaller dimension, literally inside the empty space of matter, and light from this dimension of which we interact with daily. The "heaven"-like dimensions also exist all around us, but we are only in phase with this dimension we're in now. I can't tell you where you're going when you die though. If you haven't come to terms with your existence when you die, you may find yourself doing everything over again. Or not.
Link Posted: 3/24/2009 3:08:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By vacuumflux:
Originally Posted By Theodoret:
Originally Posted By devildoghdj:
Originally Posted By Theodoret:
Patmos,

I used to not believe in Purgatory too, but it is Scriptural and has been believed by Christians for 2000 years, it sure would not be classified as mythical, "debatable" at best. Actually the better term is "rejected by some" because some of the Protestant reformers 1500 years after Christ wanted to find "reasons" to break away from the Church.


I do not belive in Purgatory.

But prior to our Savior's Death & Resurrection the Rightoeus where sent to Abraham's Bossom (Paradise) in SHEOL which was separated from Hades( place of Torment) by great gulf. When Christ died be took the Paradise & the Rightoues from Sheol & the place of torment was left. Some speculate that Sheol is in the center of the earth.

You are correct about Sheol and Hades and so on. Hades probably is in the center of the earth, at least Scripture seems to indicate that in Ephesians 4:9 and Matthew 12:40.



All that really means is that "Hades" as you call it, is within a smaller dimension, literally inside the empty space of matter, and light from this dimension of which we interact with daily. The "heaven"-like dimensions also exist all around us, but we are only in phase with this dimension we're in now. I can't tell you where you're going when you die though. If you haven't come to terms with your existence when you die, you may find yourself doing everything over again. Or not.

Wow! What Sci-fi did that come from?
Link Posted: 3/24/2009 3:09:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Theodoret:
Originally Posted By vacuumflux:
Originally Posted By Theodoret:
Originally Posted By devildoghdj:
Originally Posted By Theodoret:
Patmos,

I used to not believe in Purgatory too, but it is Scriptural and has been believed by Christians for 2000 years, it sure would not be classified as mythical, "debatable" at best. Actually the better term is "rejected by some" because some of the Protestant reformers 1500 years after Christ wanted to find "reasons" to break away from the Church.


I do not belive in Purgatory.

But prior to our Savior's Death & Resurrection the Rightoeus where sent to Abraham's Bossom (Paradise) in SHEOL which was separated from Hades( place of Torment) by great gulf. When Christ died be took the Paradise & the Rightoues from Sheol & the place of torment was left. Some speculate that Sheol is in the center of the earth.

You are correct about Sheol and Hades and so on. Hades probably is in the center of the earth, at least Scripture seems to indicate that in Ephesians 4:9 and Matthew 12:40.



All that really means is that "Hades" as you call it, is within a smaller dimension, literally inside the empty space of matter, and light from this dimension of which we interact with daily. The "heaven"-like dimensions also exist all around us, but we are only in phase with this dimension we're in now. I can't tell you where you're going when you die though. If you haven't come to terms with your existence when you die, you may find yourself doing everything over again. Or not.

Wow! What Sci-fi did that come from?


The book of life.
Link Posted: 3/25/2009 11:29:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Theodoret:
Originally Posted By RangerStew:
My thoughts on purgatory:

If purgatory is place for us to be purified before we get to heaven, then there are some definite problems with it Biblically. Primiarily, I John 3:2-3 which states: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Vs. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he (Christ) is pure."

A person who has placed their faith and trust in Christ, and therefore has the assurance of the resurrection, is already pure. Why? Because they are covered in the blood of Christ! Once a person has been redeemed, they are positionally sanctified in God's eyes. There is no need of a cleansing process before you meet God because Christ already did that for us. What I Cor. 3 is speaking of is the Judgement seat of Christ which will be for the church age saints only.

Basically, just because many "Christians" believed in something for around 1500 years doesn't make something true. The litmus test for whether something is true or not is if it is supported by Scripture, which must be interpreted consistently and accurately (a whole separate can of worms).

Thank God the reformers separated themselves from the Roman Catholic church. If not, we would most likely still be in the dark ages.
From your answer it seems that you believe that all your future sins are forgiven once you put your faith in Christ, right? So at conversion you are sanctified from there on out no matter what you do afterwards and there is no need for anything else after that to cleanse you from your sins? That could not be the case since Scripture teaches us that "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1John 1:9) That was written by St. John to those who were already converted. That same message is taught throughout the NT, and it shows that we do need to be cleansed even after conversion, and confession is the instrument that the NT authors give us. The point is this, that you become completely cleansed at conversion (Baptism) and all your sins are washed away, but when you sin after that you still need to deal with those sins, and confession is prescribed by the Bible. But if there are sins that are not dealt with completely then they will be dealt with after you die. If they are mortal then Hell, but if they are not mortal then Purgatory.



Positionally, we are sanctified. Practically, on earth, we are not. In God the Father's eyes, we have to be sanctified or He would not even be able to work with us.

Link Posted: 3/25/2009 12:58:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RangerStew:
Originally Posted By Theodoret:
Originally Posted By RangerStew:
My thoughts on purgatory:

If purgatory is place for us to be purified before we get to heaven, then there are some definite problems with it Biblically. Primiarily, I John 3:2-3 which states: "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Vs. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he (Christ) is pure."

A person who has placed their faith and trust in Christ, and therefore has the assurance of the resurrection, is already pure. Why? Because they are covered in the blood of Christ! Once a person has been redeemed, they are positionally sanctified in God's eyes. There is no need of a cleansing process before you meet God because Christ already did that for us. What I Cor. 3 is speaking of is the Judgement seat of Christ which will be for the church age saints only.

Basically, just because many "Christians" believed in something for around 1500 years doesn't make something true. The litmus test for whether something is true or not is if it is supported by Scripture, which must be interpreted consistently and accurately (a whole separate can of worms).

Thank God the reformers separated themselves from the Roman Catholic church. If not, we would most likely still be in the dark ages.
From your answer it seems that you believe that all your future sins are forgiven once you put your faith in Christ, right? So at conversion you are sanctified from there on out no matter what you do afterwards and there is no need for anything else after that to cleanse you from your sins? That could not be the case since Scripture teaches us that "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1John 1:9) That was written by St. John to those who were already converted. That same message is taught throughout the NT, and it shows that we do need to be cleansed even after conversion, and confession is the instrument that the NT authors give us. The point is this, that you become completely cleansed at conversion (Baptism) and all your sins are washed away, but when you sin after that you still need to deal with those sins, and confession is prescribed by the Bible. But if there are sins that are not dealt with completely then they will be dealt with after you die. If they are mortal then Hell, but if they are not mortal then Purgatory.



Positionally, we are sanctified. Practically, on earth, we are not. In God the Father's eyes, we have to be sanctified or He would not even be able to work with us.

That does not seem to answer my point. Why would confession be prescribed for "cleansing us from all unrighteousness" after conversion if we are already clean in God's eyes? Maybe that is why confession is not confronted much by many Protestant denominations.

Link Posted: 3/25/2009 6:53:48 PM EDT
I believe that we go where our belief system tells us we will go, whatever that belief system may be.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 3:48:56 AM EDT
This passage is a reference to the works of the saved being judged - it has nothing to do with a state of limbo or "purgatory." I would note that we are not saved by works but through the blood of Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9):

1 Corinthians 3:12-15:

12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.



The link from Litteral's Library uses this citation:

2 Maccabees 12:44-45

For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.


Maccabees is a book of the apocrypha. I do not believe it to be divinely inspired Scripture, nor does most anyone else outside the catholic church.

From Dr. Sam Gipp regarding books of the Apocrypha:

[Speaking of the KJV translators] "That they rejected the Apocrypha as divine is very obvious by the seven reasons which they gave for not incorporating it into the text. They are as follows:
1. Not one of them is in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.
2. Not one of the writers lays any claim to inspiration.
3. These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish Church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.
4. They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian Church.
5. They contain fabulous statements, and statements which contradict not only the canonical Scriptures, but themselves; as when, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in as many different places.
6. It inculcates doctrines at variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection.
7. It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination and magical incantation."


My advice is to consider this when you look to a book of the Apocrypha for your personal beliefs and doctrine.


Hebrews directly contradicts the notion of purgatory:

Hebrews 9:27:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:




Link Posted: 3/28/2009 6:16:06 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CLIP67:
This passage is a reference to the works of the saved being judged - it has nothing to do with a state of limbo or "purgatory." I would note that we are not saved by works but through the blood of Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9):

1 Corinthians 3:12-15:

12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


First, limbo is not the same as purgatory. Purgatory has everything to do with the works of the saved being judged - that's exactly how the determination is made whether the soul enters heaven or goes to purgatory for purification first. Verse 15 says "he shall suffer loss" - what loss? It cannot mean hell because it goes on to say that he is saved. The "loss" is the penalty - the cleansing by fire - that the saved soul undergoes in the state of purgatory if needed.

In Matthew 12:32, Jesus says "whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." What does he mean by forgiveness in the age to come? If the soul goes directly to heaven, it is already forgiven in the age to come, if it goes to hell, there is no chance of forgiveness. So, he must be talking about some other state in which the soul can be - a state after death (the age to come) where sins are forgiven. This means that a soul can be freed of the consequences of sin after death.

Sorry, I don't have time right now to get into a discussion on the Deeterocanonical books, other than to say that they were used by the early Church and there are many references to them in the NT.


Hebrews directly contradicts the notion of purgatory:

Hebrews 9:27:

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


How, exactly does this passage directly contradict purgatory? The Catholic teaching is that after death, we undergo individual judgment, then receive our reward or punishment - exactly what is stated in the verse you cited. If the soul is rewarded with heaven, it may go directly to heaven, or may go into a state of cleansing, because according to Rev 21:27, nothing unlcean can enter heaven.
Link Posted: 3/28/2009 1:23:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/28/2009 1:28:27 PM EDT by Theodoret]

CLIP67

In 1 Cor.3:12, the "wood, hay, stubble" are venial sins, which are works, but bad works that we would call light sins. There are good works and bad works, and that is what St. Paul is talking about. So you are correct in saying that the passage is talking about works of the saved being judged. As St. Thomas Aquinas points out, these 3 are different levels of venial sins, he said, "Accordingly all degrees of venial sins are reduced to three, viz. to "wood," which remains longer in the fire; "stubble," which is burnt up at once; and "hay," which is between these two: because venial sins are removed by fire, quickly or slowly, according as man is more or less attached to them."


As for the Maccabees passage, you cited Dr. Sam Gipp. Let me paste is remarks and I will answer them one by one.

[Speaking of the KJV translators] "That they rejected the Apocrypha as divine is very obvious by the seven reasons which they gave for not incorporating it into the text. They are as follows:
1. Not one of them is in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.


I don't see why it would have to be in Hebrew in order to be inspired. Most of the New Testament was written in Greek. 2 Maccabees was written around 124BC which is very close to when the NT was written, and by that time most Jews spoke Greek and Aramaic instead of Hebrew. But let's also mention too that Maccabees was probably originally written in Hebrew and then translated into Greek by the Septuagint translators. There are found in it many words and expressions that occur which are literal renderings of Hebrew idioms. But again, the Hebrew language does not make anything inspired.



2. Not one of the writers lays any claim to inspiration.

That does not matter because many of the OT authors did not claim inspiration while there are non-Biblical books that do claim inspiration. Find where the book of Ruth and Esther claim inspiration. They don't, nor do they have to.



3. These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish Church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.
They were written by Jews and regarded as Scripture by the Jews until around the end of the 1st century AD, by the Pharisees who rejected Jesus as the Messiah. It was 70 Jewish scholars who translated them into Greek from the Hebrew and Aramaic, and the Jewish people used the Greek Septaugint as their OT, and the authors of the NT quoted the Greek Septuagint 85% of the time when they quoted OT Scripture.



4. They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian Church.

This is either a huge careless mistake made or a flat out lie meant to deceive. The Early Church Fathers quoted Maccabees and the other deuterocanicals (you call apocrypha), and here is all their citations where they quoted from from Maccabees as Scripture HERE




5. They contain fabulous statements, and statements which contradict not only the canonical Scriptures, but themselves; as when, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in as many different places.
That is a misinterpretation because there were several Kings in the Maccabees with the title of "Antiochus." Epiphanes was the fourth one to take the name of Antiochus. If we check both books, we can locate one time that Antiochus Epiphanes died .




6. It inculcates doctrines at variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead and sinless perfection.

The deuterocanonical are part of the Bible which means they are not at variance but the Bible teaches it.



7. It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination and magical incantation."
Throughout the Old Testament, immoral practices are to be found. They aren’t to be found in the Deuterocanonical books alone. But, of course, this does not mean that simply because they are in the Bible the books are promoting such practices as suicide, recourse to witches, Murder, adultery, Idolatry and so forth.




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