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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/6/2005 4:26:11 PM EDT
Is an issued AR15 too much firepower for PDs to have in their cruisers? Does it make a difference if it's an average small town or a large metro area? What about swat teams with Class III weapons and NVGs? I wonder if any opinions have changed after watching the total break down of civilization in New Orleans this week.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:29:39 PM EDT
For most patrolmen yes. Most can't handle the pistol on their sides much less an AR. More training would make it safer. LOTS more training.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:32:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 4:32:58 PM EDT by captainpooby]
No. I always thought that cops should have whatever I might have in my car in theirs.

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:32:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 4:34:20 PM EDT by Bama-Shooter]
Nope. Has not changed my mind one bit. I carried an AR carbine back in the early 90's.

ETA: I did get a FA L1A1 in the mid 90's. It was fun, but I carried my AR 99% of the time.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:33:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
No. I always thought that cops should have whatever I might have in my car in theirs.


Yep.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:34:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
For most patrolmen yes. Most can't handle the pistol on their sides much less an AR. More training would make it safer. LOTS more training.



You sir, don't know what you are talking about.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:34:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By captainpooby:
No. I always thought that cops should have whatever I might have in my car in theirs.


Yep.



yep
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:36:08 PM EDT
Well, since the bad guys had AK-47's, I have no problem with the good guys having AR-15's or M16's.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:37:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 4:38:29 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
For most patrolmen yes. Most can't handle the pistol on their sides much less an AR. More training would make it safer. LOTS more training.



You sir, don't know what you are talking about.



Well most NO police... can't shoot nothin when you are AWOL.

I have no problem with giving the police the best tool for the job.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:37:50 PM EDT
They can throw the whole Black Movement in the trash and start over.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:42:11 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:45:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2005 4:48:58 PM EDT by Boomholzer]

Is an issued AR15 too much firepower for PDs to have in their cruisers? Does it make a difference if it's an average small town or a large metro area? What about swat teams with Class III weapons and NVGs? I wonder if any opinions have changed after watching the total break down of civilization in New Orleans this week.


One could make the same argument within your point for private ownership.

If anything past the sorrow, disgust, and awe, what has happened had told me I am not completely nuts in my assumptions.

Outside of any modern motive: Self preservation is not an excuse for obligerant discharging of a firearm. Archiac man for lack of understanding or course in threat, would beat his club.



No. I always thought that cops should whatever I might have in my car in theirs.



So did our Forefathers, and so do I. Seeing what has occurred how does one not take an elitest view or a perhaps a stance of misunderstanding.

Or that will be the nature of chaos, as it has always been.



Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:48:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
For most patrolmen yes. Most can't handle the pistol on their sides much less an AR. More training would make it safer. LOTS more training.



You sir, don't know what you are talking about.



Nothing like an asst. manager at the local stop and rob giving an opinion on police tactics.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 4:54:18 PM EDT
Most people would consider a handgun much more difficult to master than a long arm.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:52:55 PM EDT
A policeman is a certified good Joe (to the extent such certification is possible) who has agreed for a fair but moderate wage to spare me the ancient Anglo-Saxon's obligation to answer the Hue and Cry - to drop what I'm doing and answer any complaint of violence or felony within earshot.

I'm OK with him having what I have. In fact, as long as things are as nearly good as they are where I live, he can borrow some of mine.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 5:55:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DDiggler:
Most people would consider a handgun much more difficult to master than a long arm.


I would be one of them.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:00:43 PM EDT
They can have whatever they want as far as I am concerned.

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:06:00 PM EDT
I say they should be allowed to possess and use anything that I am legally allowed to openly possess and use. If the citizenry is not allowed to have something then surely state and federal law enforment should not.

This already creates some difficulties in CA. I'd get shot for open carry. Oh well, it's not a perfect world.

Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:09:29 PM EDT
Never have I said otherwise. No reason for them not to have a rifle. It's a tool in the box.
Link Posted: 9/6/2005 6:17:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
For most patrolmen yes. Most can't handle the pistol on their sides much less an AR. More training would make it safer. LOTS more training.



You sir, don't know what you are talking about.




Painless, in Texas you are right. The Texas LEO community takes pride in their ability to handle firearms.

East of the Mississippi and it is anybodys guess as to how much training the LEO community has in firearms.

There are a lot of East Coast LEOs that are incompetent with a damned cap pistol.

The excuse given to me by most LEOs is budget cuts.

I wonder.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:35:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 7:36:01 AM EDT by KlubMarcus]

Originally Posted By brushdog:
Is an issued AR15 too much firepower for PDs to have in their cruisers?

No, a hunting rifle has as much (some more) firepower than an AR15. My only problem is that PD's don't shoot criminals more often with the guns they already have.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:48:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 7:49:04 AM EDT by Gator]
Nope. Police shouldn't have more more firepower than citizens. This place is by the people, for the people, right?

If too many criminals have full autos then the NFA and AW laws are doing a whole lot of good, huh?

Edit to add military is different.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:59:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:23:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By brushdog:
Is an issued AR15 too much firepower for PDs to have in their cruisers? Does it make a difference if it's an average small town or a large metro area? What about swat teams with Class III weapons and NVGs? I wonder if any opinions have changed after watching the total break down of civilization in New Orleans this week.



I still maintain my position that LE should have available to them everything that I can have. I can go out, if I have the money, and buy an APC, so I have no problem with them having them. Same with NVDs, I could buy a pair but I have better things to spend the money on right now. I think every LEO that wants to take the time to get qualified to carry an AR or other type of patrol carbine should be able to carry one with them.

I do however have a problem with LE being able to get things that we the people are not allowed to get. Their should be no LE exemptions from state AWB laws(like Cali) if the pepople of the state can't own it, the police should not be allowed to either. Just the way I feel. I don't think PDs should be able to get new(post 86) machinguns, or MGs that are not catagorised as"transferable" under the NFA. I can't legaly have one made after 86 so a PD should not be able to either. If I have to pay 10k to get a 20+ year old registered reciever, they should to. I also think that the need for FA by LEOs is about on par with the "need" for FA by civilians. 99.99% of the time (in a defensive situation) it's not needed. The only diferance between the PD having a FA gun and a private citizen having it is that the PD has no "right" to own it, but we the people do, yet we can't get one that was made last week......
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:25:19 AM EDT
Only on what kind of round best stops Looters.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:38:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 8:39:57 AM EDT by 3rdpig]
What's wrong with cops having an AR in their trunk? For those complaining that they aren't well trained enough to have one, don't worry, if that's true they'll never get it loaded, charged and safety off in time to save their lives, and some of them might not even remember to get it out of their trunk.

I remember years ago the police used to practice at my local range, this was back in the revolver days. They had a 5 gallon bucket to dump brass into. I heard reports that when in a firefight with bank robbers, these same police were seen to be looking around for the "empty brass bucket" while the fight was still in progress. Anyone, police or otherwise, that poorly trained is more of a danger to themselves than anyone else, so give them an AR, it won't make any difference.

For the majority that are well trained, an AR in the trunk may save their lives or the lives of unarmed or poorly armed citizens, so why not?

My only caveat is that is that they don't own anything that I'm not allowed to own, and they don't use their weapons to disarm citizens that are just protecting their family or property.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:43:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By brushdog:
Is an issued AR15 too much firepower for PDs to have in their cruisers? Does it make a difference if it's an average small town or a large metro area? What about swat teams with Class III weapons and NVGs? I wonder if any opinions have changed after watching the total break down of civilization in New Orleans this week.



I still maintain my position that LE should have available to them everything that I can have. I can go out, if I have the money, and buy an APC, so I have no problem with them having them. Same with NVDs, I could buy a pair but I have better things to spend the money on right now. I think every LEO that wants to take the time to get qualified to carry an AR or other type of patrol carbine should be able to carry one with them.

I do however have a problem with LE being able to get things that we the people are not allowed to get. Their should be no LE exemptions from state AWB laws(like Cali) if the pepople of the state can't own it, the police should not be allowed to either. Just the way I feel. I don't think PDs should be able to get new(post 86) machinguns, or MGs that are not catagorised as"transferable" under the NFA. I can't legaly have one made after 86 so a PD should not be able to either. If I have to pay 10k to get a 20+ year old registered reciever, they should to. I also think that the need for FA by LEOs is about on par with the "need" for FA by civilians. 99.99% of the time (in a defensive situation) it's not needed. The only diferance between the PD having a FA gun and a private citizen having it is that the PD has no "right" to own it, but we the people do, yet we can't get one that was made last week......



Right on!!!
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:59:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 3rdpig:
What's wrong with cops having an AR in their trunk? For those complaining that they aren't well trained enough to have one, don't worry, if that's true they'll never get it loaded, charged and safety off in time to save their lives, and some of them might not even remember to get it out of their trunk.

I remember years ago the police used to practice at my local range, this was back in the revolver days. They had a 5 gallon bucket to dump brass into. I heard reports that when in a firefight with bank robbers, these same police were seen to be looking around for the "empty brass bucket" while the fight was still in progress. Anyone, police or otherwise, that poorly trained is more of a danger to themselves than anyone else, so give them an AR, it won't make any difference.

For the majority that are well trained, an AR in the trunk may save their lives or the lives of unarmed or poorly armed citizens, so why not?

My only caveat is that is that they don't own anything that I'm not allowed to own, and they don't use their weapons to disarm citizens that are just protecting their family or property.




Well the police(from many different agencies) DO train currently at my range. One thing I have noticed on the couple of occasions that they didn't boot me out from where they were is this. Most of the training they do is not "gunfighting" but weapons familiarity type training. So there is a diferance in "training". Now if all they get is a couple hours on the basics of the AR15 then there is a problem because that is not enough. knowing how to shoot and being familiar with a weapon is completly different then knowing how to fight with that weapon. I think with the excption of SWAT, not enough officers are trained in gunfighting, at least not from what I see around here. Part of that is a mind set issue in that I think more officers, again at least around here, don't have the proper mind set.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 9:08:55 AM EDT
The lesson should have been learned after the bank shoot out in North Hollywood in 1997. Cops had to borrow guns from a gun store to fight back against a full auto AK and HK91. Give cops what they need and train them to use it effectively.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 9:11:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mauser101:
I say they should be allowed to possess and use anything that I am legally allowed to openly possess and use. If the citizenry is not allowed to have something then surely state and federal law enforment should not.

This already creates some difficulties in CA. I'd get shot for open carry. Oh well, it's not a perfect world.




well put. No problems with PD's carrying what they need to get the job done.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 9:14:04 AM EDT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
For most patrolmen yes. Most can't handle the pistol on their sides much less an AR. More training would make it safer. LOTS more training.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




You sir, don't know what you are talking about.





I have got to go with in Texas yes, in NJ alot of guys I work with hafve no clue. I make it a pointot turn them into gun freaks any chance I can.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 9:18:47 AM EDT
What's happening in New Orleans
only proves that you can take the monkey out of
the jungle, But you can't take the jungle out of the
monkey!


Politically correct I am not
& I don't apologies for it!
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 9:18:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
For most patrolmen yes. Most can't handle the pistol on their sides much less an AR. More training would make it safer. LOTS more training.



You sir, don't know what you are talking about.



I have to concur with Dusty_C. I've seen and shot with lots of cops and some FBI agents who were appallingly unskilled with their issued pistols. Training budgets are tight.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 9:36:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rodent:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:

Originally Posted By Dusty_C:
For most patrolmen yes. Most can't handle the pistol on their sides much less an AR. More training would make it safer. LOTS more training.



You sir, don't know what you are talking about.



I have to concur with Dusty_C. I've seen and shot with lots of cops and some FBI agents who were appallingly unskilled with their issued pistols. Training budgets are tight.



While that may be true in NOLA, most agencies I have trained with and read about take there primary sidearm training seriously and with a lot of forethought.

Traditionally rifles/subguns are easier to shoot with, accuracy wise, because of the longer sight radius. Most of the armed Bobby's in England are not carrying pistols, but Sub-guns, mostly HK MP5's, simply because they get better hit ratio's.

I realize training budgets are tight, I am no stranger to that, but adaquate training has to be addressed.

As for too much firepower ? Bah humbug !

My officers carry M-16A1 rifles, without the selector switch being removed or replaced. They do train with it. They and I also carry extra ammo, in particluar a Beta-C mag for SHTF scenario's. If I could afford to buy one on my department budget, I would get a M249 SAW like my sister agency recently did.


No, I'm not crazy. I have a 1.5 hour wait for a SWAT call out from the local Sheriff's Office. When the shooting starts, I'm not waiting for a SWAT Team to "Gear up" and head out, and damn sure am not waiting for the Cali NG to call out troops and find "their ammo" like in the L.A. Riots. I don't want my officers or the citizens to lose, it is that simple.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 10:32:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

Originally Posted By 3rdpig:
What's wrong with cops having an AR in their trunk? For those complaining that they aren't well trained enough to have one, don't worry, if that's true they'll never get it loaded, charged and safety off in time to save their lives, and some of them might not even remember to get it out of their trunk.

I remember years ago the police used to practice at my local range, this was back in the revolver days. They had a 5 gallon bucket to dump brass into. I heard reports that when in a firefight with bank robbers, these same police were seen to be looking around for the "empty brass bucket" while the fight was still in progress. Anyone, police or otherwise, that poorly trained is more of a danger to themselves than anyone else, so give them an AR, it won't make any difference.

For the majority that are well trained, an AR in the trunk may save their lives or the lives of unarmed or poorly armed citizens, so why not?

My only caveat is that is that they don't own anything that I'm not allowed to own, and they don't use their weapons to disarm citizens that are just protecting their family or property.




Well the police(from many different agencies) DO train currently at my range. One thing I have noticed on the couple of occasions that they didn't boot me out from where they were is this. Most of the training they do is not "gunfighting" but weapons familiarity type training. So there is a diferance in "training". Now if all they get is a couple hours on the basics of the AR15 then there is a problem because that is not enough. knowing how to shoot and being familiar with a weapon is completly different then knowing how to fight with that weapon. I think with the excption of SWAT, not enough officers are trained in gunfighting, at least not from what I see around here. Part of that is a mind set issue in that I think more officers, again at least around here, don't have the proper mind set.



The "industry standard" for training on ARs in LE agencies tends to run around 2-4 days of range time with about 1-2K expended, mostly concentrating on shooting 100 yards to close-quarters distances. Most AR training that I have witnessed tends to be pretty good. The NRA does a Patrol Rifle Instructor course that trains folks to train their troops to about that standard, and most agencies will not accept the liability of issuing a weapon to folks without a decent level of training.

Most "basic" training in handgun usage occurs in the academy, and for at least a couple of decades, the standard for initial training on police sidearms has been about 1 week of range time and about 1-2k rounds fired. Most people become proficient shooters at the end of that, and those who cannot hack it generally get re-cycled until they can, or wash out.

Where problems arise is with SUSTAINMENT training and critical incident stress. If you do not shoot a handgun VERY regularly, your skills will generally deteriorate. Heck, I am guilty, too. I used to be a much better shot with a handgun than I am now, but I have slowly gotten worse and worse over the years. I always qualify, but I use to be a lot better. Now with my long gun... but I digress. I am practicing much more frequently with sidearms and getting better again.

The other issue is that ALL of the high-speed range time in the world won't mean jack if officers don't have some basic tactical training and aren't innoculated against critical incident stress. Heck, many police gunfights are avoidable by the simple practice of not letting the bad guy get the drop on you by using better tactics in the first place. Bad guys initiate most gunfights with police, often because they think they have an advantage and can win.

ANyhow, to answer the original question, yes, this is changing thinking. LE administrators are rethinking their resistance to Patrol Rifles/Carbines or speeding up fielding of those systems already in the pipeline. Tactical folks are thinking that they don't have enough firepower, and are starting to think heavily about base-of-fire weapons for situations like NO. A SAW or M240 (I'd really like to T&E one of those new Mk. 48s) or two in the Armory is looking like a really good idea for those extreme situations, like mutual aid during a complete and instantaneous breakdown of social order, like we just witnessed...
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 10:35:10 AM EDT
I've always thought that the police should be given the best resources/weapons/training possible.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 10:41:46 AM EDT
I don't know about a SAW ... I mean, I have no problem in theory with police having equipment like that, but it just seems to me the money would be better spent elsewhere. I suppose there might be a use for some in an extreme situation.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 10:52:21 AM EDT
Here is the local sherriff and his posse on horseback and toting an MP5!! (Athens Alabama, BTW)


Sheriff Mike Blakely, right, leads armed men in the underbrush near Turkey Creek Road in a search Sunday for two men who robbed Community Bank of Elkmont. Mark McBay, left, and Allen Craig, center, aid in the search. (News-Courier/Kim Rynders)

www.limestonesheriff.com/main.html
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