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Posted: 5/3/2004 12:59:14 PM EST
My uncle goes shooting all the time (thanks to my initial persuasion) and he orders 1000 round cans all the time. Anyway, this last time he ordered he not only received the ammo but also a couple of cops on his doorstep a few days later. The cops said they were notified by FedEx and they actually started asking him why he bought so many bullets and why would he ever need so many?

Anyway, he told them he belongs to a local gun club that one of the cops also belongs to so they lay off of him. Does anybody else thinks this is utter bullshit by FedEx? Is buying bullets now enough info to look suspicious? In the future will it be enough for a warrant? My brother and uncle just seemed let it go but it kind of pissed me off.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:03:32 PM EST
is your uncles name Mohammad?
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:06:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:
Is buying bullets now enough info to look suspicious? In the future will it be enough for a warrant? My brother and uncle just seemed let it go but it kind of pissed me off.



Yes it is under homeland defense guidelines. There were many here screaming for police state type powers, they got them, only now these powers are and will be applied to everyone. The people here that sheepishly supported these measures in the name of "the war against those who hate our freedoms" deserve all of the consequences of their own actions. Just wait until a new administration takes over.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:08:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:09:00 PM EST
How much does it take to raise any eyebrows? I have been ordering 500 to 1K lots for some time now. But come to think of it, UPS always delivers mine. Do they report also?
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:10:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:
Is buying bullets now enough info to look suspicious? In the future will it be enough for a warrant? My brother and uncle just seemed let it go but it kind of pissed me off.



Yes it is under homeland defense guidelines. There were many here screaming for police state type powers, they got them, only now these powers are and will be applied to everyone. The people here that sheepishly supported these measures in the name of "the war against those who hate our freedoms" deserve all of the consequences of their own actions. Just wait until a new administration takes over.



You hit the nail on the head there. Once you give up your freedom to the political and social elite, dont expect to get them back any time soon. Moreover, you had better believe that they (the political and social elite) will indeed exploit thier power to impose further control of the masses (you and I).
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:11:35 PM EST
Sound like just bullshit to me! I would go right up the line complaining until I got an apology!
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:12:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:
Is buying bullets now enough info to look suspicious? In the future will it be enough for a warrant? My brother and uncle just seemed let it go but it kind of pissed me off.



Yes it is under homeland defense guidelines. There were many here screaming for police state type powers, they got them, only now these powers are and will be applied to everyone. The people here that sheepishly supported these measures in the name of "the war against those who hate our freedoms" deserve all of the consequences of their own actions. Just wait until a new administration takes over.


I was afraid that it might be somehow connected to "homeland security". I didn't think a shipping company would take it upon themselves to notify authorities however. And Peekay, he has an obviously Japanese last name. No Abdul, Mohammad, or Al-whatever. He does live just south of Santa Barbara which is pretty liberal, not sure if that had anything to do with it.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:12:40 PM EST
FedEx has a duty yo report suspicious deliveries.

But this ain't it. It's likely there is an anti in the FedEx office who is "scared" of guns.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:13:01 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:16:48 PM EST
I call bullshit. Everyone knows only UPS pulls this kind of crap. Not FedEx.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:20:54 PM EST
A couple cops for only 1000 rounds???

Damn, if the equation is 2 cops per 1000rds, I'm sure many ARFcommer will soon have busloads of cops at their doors.



On a serious note, that's BS and slightly frightening.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:26:26 PM EST
SC_00_05: What Kali-fornia city does your uncle live in. Sounds like BS to me. Sounds pretty fishy to me. I would buy this stuff at the gun shows, the problem is that you've got to take the stuff to your car, which can get pretty heavy.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:27:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By 455SD:
I call bullshit. Everyone knows only UPS pulls this kind of crap. Not FedEx.



I know someone that used to work in a fedex hub. He told me of incidents where "suspicious" packages were opened for "inspection" and that the atf/feds were called many times. This was in the mid 90's. Now with people whipped up into a hysteria trying be a "patriotic hero" by fingerpointing "those who hate our freedoms" it will become a common occurance more and more.

"Homeland defense and the pa it just isn't for foreigners anymore." (Not that is ever was.)

Peace be with you.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:29:17 PM EST
If it was LA, I wouldn't doubt it. Don't they have an ammo tax or prohibit online ammo sales in the city?
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:29:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By warlord:
SC_00_05: What Kali-fornia city does your uncle live in. Sounds like BS to me. Sounds pretty fishy to me. I would buy this stuff at the gun shows, the problem is that you've got to take the stuff to your car, which can get pretty heavy.



Well, gee what is the tradeoff? Multiple trips to the car with heavy boxes or getting tagged by the feds and put on their watch list? By the way, most ammo vendors will lend you their handtruck if you buy alot.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:31:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By warlord:
SC_00_05: What Kali-fornia city does your uncle live in. Sounds like BS to me. Sounds pretty fishy to me. I would buy this stuff at the gun shows, the problem is that you've got to take the stuff to your car, which can get pretty heavy.


Ummm, I'm pretty positive my uncle isn't bullshitting me and I know I'm not making it up. He lives in Carpinteria, north of LA but south of Santa Barbara. BTW, it could have been for more than a 1000 rounds. Does UPS pull this stuff too?
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:33:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/3/2004 1:34:59 PM EST by FLAL1A]

Originally Posted By HKocher:
A couple cops for only 1000 rounds???

Damn, if the equation is 2 cops per 1000rds, I'm sure many ARFcommer will soon have busloads of cops at their doors.



On a serious note, that's BS and slightly frightening.



After much feverish computation, I have concluded that I rate no more than a Ford Windstar full of cops. I will do better in the future.

ETA: If I count .22lr, I come up with a Windstar plus a clown car full of midget policemen. I don't feel much better.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 1:43:10 PM EST
dont have anything deliverd you can buy with cash.
Buy second hand NIB hardware if possible.

Oh yeah, and they are watching this site too.



-HS
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 2:03:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By HillBillySasquatch:
Oh yeah, and they are watching this site too.



-HS



Watching? Hell, they PARTICIPATE on this site.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 2:05:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By warlord:
SC_00_05: What Kali-fornia city does your uncle live in. Sounds like BS to me. Sounds pretty fishy to me. I would buy this stuff at the gun shows, the problem is that you've got to take the stuff to your car, which can get pretty heavy.



I heard a cops boot or knee to the back of your neck is too...

Link Posted: 5/3/2004 2:07:03 PM EST
I've never heard of FEDEX or any other shipping company doing this, but they do have the right to report things that don't look right. They only way Im sure this happened was if the box got ripped open during transit along the way and got reported by an employee. If it was shipped FEDEX express NOT GROUND and wasn't declared as Dangerous goods this could have been the problem, but then the FAA would have gotten involved. Anything getting on an aircraft with out the right document can be a major problem for them. Especially things that have the potential to be dangerous.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 2:08:58 PM EST
Ahhhh, the price of freedom.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 2:11:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:

Originally Posted By HillBillySasquatch:
Oh yeah, and they are watching this site too.



-HS



Watching? Hell, they PARTICIPATE on this site.



So you admit to being a Fed?
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 2:15:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:

Originally Posted By 455SD:
I call bullshit. Everyone knows only UPS pulls this kind of crap. Not FedEx.



I know someone that used to work in a fedex hub. He told me of incidents where "suspicious" packages were opened for "inspection" and that the atf/feds were called many times. This was in the mid 90's. Now with people whipped up into a hysteria trying be a "patriotic hero" by fingerpointing "those who hate our freedoms" it will become a common occurance more and more.

"Homeland defense and the pa it just isn't for foreigners anymore." (Not that is ever was.)

Peace be with you.

Speaking of hysteria, you are saying this activity predates "homeland security is out to get us"?
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 2:16:42 PM EST

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:

Originally Posted By warlord:
SC_00_05: What Kali-fornia city does your uncle live in. Sounds like BS to me. Sounds pretty fishy to me. I would buy this stuff at the gun shows, the problem is that you've got to take the stuff to your car, which can get pretty heavy.


Ummm, I'm pretty positive my uncle isn't bullshitting me and I know I'm not making it up. He lives in Carpinteria, north of LA but south of Santa Barbara. BTW, it could have been for more than a 1000 rounds. Does UPS pull this stuff too?


This is the first time I've heard of stuff like this personally. My UPS man used to deliver bullets by case, and they were extremely heavy, no problems. He usually waves to me when he see's me driving around the 'hood. There is something more to the story, just that I don't what it is. Well, thanks for the warning anyways.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 2:19:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By warlord:
SC_00_05: What Kali-fornia city does your uncle live in. Sounds like BS to me. Sounds pretty fishy to me. I would buy this stuff at the gun shows, the problem is that you've got to take the stuff to your car, which can get pretty heavy.



And that's no joke. Every 3 months I cart 1000 rounds of .40 S&W out of the local show and to my truck. In the handicapped spot. My fingers feel like they'd been jackhammered.

This is my first post on this board, by the way, and I most definitely appreciate the non-anal, laid back style of the place. Fuckin-A!

As for Homeland Security...if the cops want to ask me about my stuff, by all means. Ask. And if I'm a bit testy, I hope they'll understand. But if they are coming to reassure themselves that I am NOT Mohammed, I'll live with it, albeit grudgingly. Am I giving up a freedom? No. I gave THAT up when I got married and like a lot of us, I take my share of flak from my wife about all the shooting I do. Shrug.

Fedex has no excuse in my mind. I wonder how many cops show up when a fabric store orders a gross of 8" hat pins? -Rod-
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 2:23:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By Avtomat:

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:

Originally Posted By 455SD:
I call bullshit. Everyone knows only UPS pulls this kind of crap. Not FedEx.



I know someone that used to work in a fedex hub. He told me of incidents where "suspicious" packages were opened for "inspection" and that the atf/feds were called many times. This was in the mid 90's. Now with people whipped up into a hysteria trying be a "patriotic hero" by fingerpointing "those who hate our freedoms" it will become a common occurance more and more.

"Homeland defense and the pa it just isn't for foreigners anymore." (Not that is ever was.)

Peace be with you.

Speaking of hysteria, you are saying this activity predates "homeland security is out to get us"?



You mean Fedex opening packages? Yes. He told of one time when the "inspectors" opened up a crate that contained air guns because they thought the guns might have been real. The private carriers, like ups, fedex, dhl, etc. are not covered by the same laws as the USPS and can open stuff at will.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 2:24:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By rkbar15:

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:

Originally Posted By HillBillySasquatch:
Oh yeah, and they are watching this site too.



-HS



Watching? Hell, they PARTICIPATE on this site.



So you admit to being a Fed?



I don't think that is what the esteemed Mr. Imbroglio meant to imply. I would imagine they watch many sites like; full-auto, glocktalk, ect... but, some probably hae team memberships here.


Yeah, a .22 and a .38 is all I need too.


-HS
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 2:27:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:
Is buying bullets now enough info to look suspicious? In the future will it be enough for a warrant? My brother and uncle just seemed let it go but it kind of pissed me off.



Yes it is under homeland defense guidelines. There were many here screaming for police state type powers, they got them, only now these powers are and will be applied to everyone. The people here that sheepishly supported these measures in the name of "the war against those who hate our freedoms" deserve all of the consequences of their own actions. Just wait until a new administration takes over.



Amen !
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 2:29:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By USAPatriot:
As for Homeland Security...if the cops want to ask me about my stuff, by all means. Ask. And if I'm a bit testy, I hope they'll understand. But if they are coming to reassure themselves that I am NOT Mohammed, I'll live with it, albeit grudgingly. Am I giving up a freedom? No. I gave THAT up when I got married and like a lot of us, I take my share of flak from my wife about all the shooting I do. Shrug.




Just a bit of advice, everyone should get it out of their heads that all of these laws and guidelines were specifically put into place to apply to "mohammed". It is another piece of incrementalism by the successful use of hegelian dialectic.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 2:35:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By HillBillySasquatch:

I don't think that is what the esteemed Mr. Imbroglio meant to imply. I would imagine they watch many sites like; full-auto, glocktalk, ect... but, some probably hae team memberships here.

-HS



It isn't too hard to spot these types either. They are always the ones that most vigorously defend these actions as they have a VESTED INTEREST (economically or employment wise) in keeping these policies on the books.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 2:50:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:
It isn't too hard to spot these types either. They are always the ones that most vigorously defend these actions as they have a VESTED INTEREST (economically or employment wise) in keeping these policies on the books.



Well if that is the criteria one should use the site at last estimate was about 98% Feds. That might be a conservative estimate.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 3:06:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:

Ummm, I'm pretty positive my uncle isn't bullshitting me and I know I'm not making it up. He lives in Carpinteria, north of LA but south of Santa Barbara. BTW, it could have been for more than a 1000 rounds. Does UPS pull this stuff too?



I know the area. I wouldn't think FedEx would do this unless they thought something was fishy. Not much happens around there.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 3:12:09 PM EST
I work for UPS and we don't give two shits about the ammo other than the fact that it has to be manually lifted/hauled around.

I supervise at a local hub and most of the folks are shooters or hunters here. Maybe in a more urban area you might run into problems but not in my hub, we have 47 people working mornings loading the trucks with around 90 drivers going out each day.


One day we had some poorly packed TNW ammo come down one of the shoots, 14 boxes of freaking 50BMG all loose packed into cardboard boxes with about 1/2 of them needing to be taped up because the things were tearing themselves to pieces going down the shoots. If there was ever going to be a time for hysteria it would have been when near 1400 rounds of 50BMG were going to ONE person up in the hills just outside of town. We repacked it, got it on the truck, and made sure it got out to the person.


People just laugh now when my ammo comes down the line, they know to pull it off and place it in a nice stack for me so I can pick it up at the end of the day. 2400 rounds of Aussie in 200 round cans on bandoleers, around 5k rounds of XM193, and 3k rounds of Q3131A not to mention the tons of reloading components that have come for me.



I have folks who live in Ventura, not far from Carpenteria, there are actually quite a lot of active shooters in the area. Thousand Oaks up through Oxnard and into some parts of Santa Barbara are pretty decent areas, an active group at Lake Piru do IPSC/IDPA type shooting events.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 3:14:24 PM EST
I remember someone telling me that the county I lived in NY had a law limiting a household to less than 3,000 rounds. Might have been a state law. Anyone know anything about this?
Gerry
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 3:21:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By ger42:
I remember someone telling me that the county I lived in NY had a law limiting a household to less than 3,000 rounds. Might have been a state law. Anyone know anything about this?
Gerry



It might have been some local fire code regulation like NYC has. AFAIK there is no NY state law that restricts the amount of loaded ammo you can store in a residence.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 3:31:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/3/2004 3:50:17 PM EST by LARRYG]

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:

Originally Posted By Avtomat:

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:

Originally Posted By 455SD:
I call bullshit. Everyone knows only UPS pulls this kind of crap. Not FedEx.



I know someone that used to work in a fedex hub. He told me of incidents where "suspicious" packages were opened for "inspection" and that the atf/feds were called many times. This was in the mid 90's. Now with people whipped up into a hysteria trying be a "patriotic hero" by fingerpointing "those who hate our freedoms" it will become a common occurance more and more.

"Homeland defense and the pa it just isn't for foreigners anymore." (Not that is ever was.)

Peace be with you.

Speaking of hysteria, you are saying this activity predates "homeland security is out to get us"?



You mean Fedex opening packages? Yes. He told of one time when the "inspectors" opened up a crate that contained air guns because they thought the guns might have been real. The private carriers, like ups, fedex, dhl, etc. are not covered by the same laws as the USPS and can open stuff at will.



Yeah, the old "he told me". Bullshit. I don't believe a damn thing you say.

I also have doubts that Fedex called the cops on this guy in the first place. I have had Fedex deliver thousands of rounds of ammo to me and nary a peep from the local gendarmes.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 3:33:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/3/2004 3:34:27 PM EST by LARRYG]

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:

Originally Posted By USAPatriot:
As for Homeland Security...if the cops want to ask me about my stuff, by all means. Ask. And if I'm a bit testy, I hope they'll understand. But if they are coming to reassure themselves that I am NOT Mohammed, I'll live with it, albeit grudgingly. Am I giving up a freedom? No. I gave THAT up when I got married and like a lot of us, I take my share of flak from my wife about all the shooting I do. Shrug.




Just a bit of advice, everyone should get it out of their heads that all of these laws and guidelines were specifically put into place to apply to "mohammed". It is another piece of incrementalism by the successful use of hegelian dialectic.



Imboglidiot, you have been asked many times to get specific and show where the Patriot Act says or means all the things you say. You have yet to do it. You are full of shit.

If Gore had won and implemented the exact same thing, you wouldn't be saying a word.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 3:45:58 PM EST
when I made my first mail order ammo purchase, which was before 9/11, I bought a lot since I had no stock pile at all and needed to get started. UPS guy jokingly said "that's a lot of ammo" as it was a few decent sized boxes. I just said "found a good price" and he was like "that's cool"
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 3:50:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By wetidlerjr:

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:

Originally Posted By SC_00_05:
Is buying bullets now enough info to look suspicious? In the future will it be enough for a warrant? My brother and uncle just seemed let it go but it kind of pissed me off.



Yes it is under homeland defense guidelines. There were many here screaming for police state type powers, they got them, only now these powers are and will be applied to everyone. The people here that sheepishly supported these measures in the name of "the war against those who hate our freedoms" deserve all of the consequences of their own actions. Just wait until a new administration takes over.



Amen !



Yeah, like when President Kerry or President Dean decide Arfcommers are domestic terrorists.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 3:53:00 PM EST
I had NYPD give me a ring at work after I got 8 or so boxes of ammo delivered to my apartment. This was just after 9/11. They wanted to know if I had a pistol permit (the boxes were marked on the outside, small arms ammunition, 9mm, .45 etc.) I was cooperative with the sergeant who called. Of course everything on my end was legit and that was the last I heard of it.

Later on my doorman told me the UPS driver dropped the dime on the shipment.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 3:59:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By LARRYG:
I also have doubts that Fedex called the cops on this guy in the first place. I have had Fedex deliver thousands of rounds of ammo to me and nary a peep from the local gendarmes.



LE agencies usually don’t report the source of an open investigation to the subject of the investigation. They may have said the source was FedEx but that doesn’t make it so.

On the other hand they may have been requested to track and report ammo deliveries to specific areas by any number of agencies including the investigating agency. Or maybe not.



Link Posted: 5/3/2004 3:59:13 PM EST
I see that one of the members of the "vested interest" group has finally shown up.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 4:00:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By Phil_A_Steen:
I had NYPD give me a ring at work after I got 8 or so boxes of ammo delivered to my apartment. This was just after 9/11. They wanted to know if I had a pistol permit (the boxes were marked on the outside, small arms ammunition, 9mm, .45 etc.) I was cooperative with the sergeant who called. Of course everything on my end was legit and that was the last I heard of it.

Later on my doorman told me the UPS driver dropped the dime on the shipment.



UPS guy was probably pissed because he blew out a nard carrying it in.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 4:01:23 PM EST
If it was marked ORM-D, how did they know it wasn't paint or something else?
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 4:03:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/3/2004 4:04:16 PM EST by LARRYG]

Originally Posted By Imbroglio:
I see that one of the members of the "vested interest" group has finally shown up.



The only "vested interest" is the sound of your whining about the Patriot Act on every fucking thread, whether it is relevant or not.

Again, you dodge the question. That is so typical.

Tell me, what is it that I have a "vested interest" in?
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 4:22:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By DigDug:
If it was marked ORM-D, how did they know it wasn't paint or something else?



Because it's required to labeled ORM-D, Cartridges, Small Arms and FedEx knows what's being shipped.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 4:28:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By rkbar15:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
If it was marked ORM-D, how did they know it wasn't paint or something else?



Because it's required to labeled ORM-D, Cartridges, Small Arms and FedEx knows what's being shipped.



I've seen ammo shipped with only ORM-D on it. No small arms label. I don't think it has to say small arms. Ammo boxes themselves say small arms on it, but if that gets packed in larger box like I've received, it only had ORM-D on it.

ORM-D could be a lot of things.
Link Posted: 5/3/2004 5:10:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By DigDug:

Originally Posted By rkbar15:

Originally Posted By DigDug:
If it was marked ORM-D, how did they know it wasn't paint or something else?



Because it's required to labeled ORM-D, Cartridges, Small Arms and FedEx knows what's being shipped.



I've seen ammo shipped with only ORM-D on it. No small arms label. I don't think it has to say small arms. Ammo boxes themselves say small arms on it, but if that gets packed in larger box like I've received, it only had ORM-D on it.

ORM-D could be a lot of things.



It's possible the shipper didn't comply with the labeling requirement. What would be the point of ORM-D without specifying the contents. Every ammo shipment that I've seen has been labeled ORM-D, Cartridges, Small Arms.


§172.316 Packagings containing materials classed as ORM-D.
(a) Each non-bulk packaging containing a material classed as ORM-D must be marked on at least one side or end with the ORM-D designation immediately following or below the proper shipping name of the material. The ORM designation must be placed within a rectangle that is approximately 6.3 mm (0.25 inches) larger on each side than the designation. The designation for ORM-D must be:

(1) ORM-D-AIR for an ORM-D that is prepared for air shipment and packaged in accordance with the provisions of §173.27 of this subchapter.

(2) ORM-D for an ORM-D other than as described in paragraph (a)(1) of this section.

(b) When the ORM-D marking including the proper shipping name can not be affixed on the package surface, it may be on an attached tag.

(c) The marking ORM-D is the certification by the person offering the packaging for transportation that the material is properly described, classed, packaged, marked and labeled (when appropriate) and in proper condition for transportation according to the applicable regulations of this subchapter. This form of certification does not preclude the requirement for a certificate on a shipping paper when required by subpart C of this part.

[Amdt. 172-29, 41 FR 15996, Apr. 15, 1976, as amended by Amdt. 172-123, 55 FR 52592, Dec. 21, 1990; 56 FR 66254, Dec. 20, 1991]

Link Posted: 5/3/2004 5:34:36 PM EST
Hell in Indiana if you don't order at least 1,000 a week the UPS gal wants to know what's wrong did I lose my money gambling on the boat?
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