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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 1/26/2002 2:42:27 PM EDT
I am not trolling for trouble or controversy. I do seek information. This time rumor is likely to be as good as it gets. (But maybe not !) 1) Was a "Human" cloned at Yale University a little over ten years ago ? 2) Was the embryo allowed to grow to fifteen weeks before the experiment was.......... was terminated ? 3) Was the experiment funded by the government ? Actually and more specifically was the research and experiment funded by the Department of Defense ? Yes I am serious.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 2:50:13 PM EDT
Our government would never do something illegal or immoral. Or would they? Please tell me where this tip came from.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 2:55:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By geezhound: Our government would never do something illegal or immoral. Or would they? Please tell me where this tip came from.
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If such an experiment was actually done would the experiment have been "illegal?" "Immoral" I won't even attempt to address. [?] [?]
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 3:13:04 PM EDT
No one here knows the answer to that. You will get conjecture, conspiracy theories, and just general paranoid rantings, but no one here knows one way or the other.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 3:19:36 PM EDT
I guarantee that if it can be done, it already has been done.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 3:23:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By LARRYG: No one here knows the answer to that. You will get conjecture, conspiracy theories, and just general paranoid rantings, but no one here knows one way or the other.
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LARRYG, This crowd consists of everything from schlunks like me to Ph.D.'s. Too many times this bunch has come up with answers that I would not have thought possible. Further I would rather ask this question here as opposed to any other place I visit. Maybe I'm just saying "why 'not' ask ?"
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 3:29:10 PM EDT
[Wiseass mode] Yes there have been human clones since the dawn of time… commonly known as Twins or in rare cases Triplets. [/wiseass mode] If, when, or if there has already been a human cloned in a lab I would hope that the public wouldn’t know about it until the person reaches about twenty years of age. The reason I am leaning towards this type of secrecy is for the (don’t gag) safety of the child. IIRC there were octuplets (SP?) from Canada that were put on the sideshow bit and seriously screwed up the family along with the kids. The first human clone would be in danger from those who do not want cloning, fanatics who may believe that (s)he is the Anti-Christ, and the scientific community. This person would have no sense of privacy or a “normal” life. Just my 2¢
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 3:35:20 PM EDT
I love the internet. Hell if I know,5subslr5. [url]http://www.humancloning.org/firsthumanclone.htm[/url] The First Cloned Human Embryo Advanced Cell Technologies (ACT) has reported the successful cloning of a human embryo by removing DNA from the skin of a man's leg and inserting it into a cow's egg, which previously had its nucleus removed. The announced cloning took place in November 1998, although ACT may have performed the same experiment years before. Researchers allowed the cloned embryo to develop for 12 days before halting the experiment. Several more clonings have reportedly been done with the goal of harvesting stem cells from embryos. Stem cells are found inside embryos during the first two weeks of their development and have the potential to develop into any kind of cell in the human body. After two weeks stem cells differentiate into more specialized tissues. Tissues created from stem cells could be used to treat nerve damage, Parkinson's disease, and diabetes. Stem cells could also be used to create organs for transplantation. In addition many other medical benefits are expected. See the essay, "The Benefits of Human Cloning." ACT's clone may be the first cloned human embryo. There were reports of similar work in South Korea, but it remains unclear as to whether those scientists were successful.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 3:40:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SDavid: [Wiseass mode] Yes there have been human clones since the dawn of time… commonly known as Twins or in rare cases Triplets.(AND A FEW QUADS AND QUINTS !) [/wiseass mode] If, when, or if there has already been a human cloned in a lab I would hope that the public wouldn't know about it until the person reaches about twenty years of age. Just my 2¢
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I'm sure this whole thing is not true but if so ......before the experiment began a decision was made to terminate (in this case I gag on that word "terminate") the experiment at 15 weeks due to legal reasons that I also do not understand. What was magic about the 15 week limit ? What legal reason/s appeared after 15 week time ??
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 3:43:07 PM EDT
Yes. Obviously. It's Imbroglio.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 3:44:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bearlaker: I love the internet. Hell if I know,5subslr5. [url]http://www.humancloning.org/firsthumanclone.htm[/url] The First Cloned Human Embryo Advanced Cell Technologies (ACT) has reported the successful cloning of a human embryo by removing DNA from the skin of a man's leg and inserting it into a cow's egg, which previously had its nucleus removed. The announced cloning took place in November 1998, although ACT may have performed the same experiment years before. Researchers allowed the cloned embryo to develop for 12 days before halting the experiment. Several more clonings have reportedly been done with the goal of harvesting stem cells from embryos. Stem cells are found inside embryos during the first two weeks of their development and have the potential to develop into any kind of cell in the human body. After two weeks stem cells differentiate into more specialized tissues. Tissues created from stem cells could be used to treat nerve damage, Parkinson's disease, and diabetes. Stem cells could also be used to create organs for transplantation. In addition many other medical benefits are expected. See the essay, "The Benefits of Human Cloning." ACT's clone may be the first cloned human embryo. There were reports of similar work in South Korea, but it remains unclear as to whether those scientists were successful.
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Bearlaker, thanks for the response and the site. Information. Hell if I know either but then that's why I'm out here asking.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 4:04:21 PM EDT
What was magic about the 15 week limit ? What legal reason/s appeared after 15 week time ??
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The 15 week limit is due to the research that found that schlunks, Ph.D.'s and J.D.'s like me are genetically formed at week 16. If terminated at week 16 or 17, there would be a potential charge of discrimination, since it is possible that a schlunk might be considered a protected class, somewhat like the DOH DOH bird. (No offense 5sub. But I doubt you're a schlunk anyway since your question was stated better than my answer will be!) Now, since the issue of cloning and stem cell research has been thrown in the Pro Lifer's hands (and bastardized by people who look only from a MORAL high ground), we can only assume that adding human rights and discrimination claims would only explode many a lay-man's brain while pondering the idiocy of the groups involved, rather than what potential good this type of research has for society. Finally, the word terminated is aptly used, since this was a scientific effort which was outside of a human body and would not have reached a stage that allowed for independant life. Excuse me whilst I step down.... [soapbox]
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 4:05:16 PM EDT
Were there laws against human cloning back then?
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 4:39:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2002 4:42:47 PM EDT by 5subslr5]
Originally Posted By Bearlaker: Were there laws against human cloning back then?
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To the best of my knowledge there were not. That's one reason I don't understand the 15 week limit and that decision was made before any attempt to clone was begun. (If there was cloning.)
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 4:49:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2002 5:55:20 PM EDT by 5subslr5]
Originally Posted By Minman72: Finally, the word terminated is aptly used, since this was a scientific effort which was outside of a human body and would not have reached a stage that allowed for independant life.
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Now my good (16 week) Doctor, what if this scientific effort took place within A 'womb'? Does this change anything ?? (Because the experiment that almost certainly did not happen took place with the embryo in the womb.)
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 5:29:11 PM EDT
First off, I read your post, then the posted article, so I confused the two and thought that the event took place within Bessy the cow. Hypothetically, using that same set of facts of a cows egg and a human host, I would call it beastiality, so I don't think any religious conservative would mind a "termination." If this whole event took place within a woman's womb with a human egg, now you're changing it into a simple surrogacy, which then you're baiting me to say its baby murder, so I won't say it since you want me to and I don't find MOST abortions to be wrong. Personally, I know that there is an extremely high rate of miscarriage, which means that the fetus/egg cluster did not have a 100% chance of survival. I believe that a life is formed when the fetus is independantly viable, with or without an incubator and the best medicine known to man. What about a second trimester abortion? In the cloning debate, I believe the right of life belongs to the cloned, rather than the surrogate (whether Bessy or a woman). So the question defers to you, whether you want a scientist making Mini Me's. Maybe adding a second 5subslr5 to the world would take away your existance as you know it and you decided to abort at week 35, now what? Aaaaahh, no answer, well that's probably because the legal world wasn't ready for the implications of cloning/stem cell research, so they swept it under the carpet while standing from that morally high place called ignorance. It is always easier to ignore a tough topic than to hammer out a solution, like what should have been done. Lastly, I'm in law (Juris Doctorate), not a doctor, so I'm allowed to be critical of the slackers we call a legal system!
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 5:53:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Minman72: If this whole event took place within a woman's womb with a human egg, now you're changing it into a simple surrogacy, which then you're baiting me to say its baby murder, so I won't say it since you want me to and I don't find MOST abortions to be wrong. What about a second trimester abortion? In the cloning debate, I believe the right of life belongs to the cloned, rather than the surrogate (whether Bessy or a woman). Aaaaahh, no answer, well that's probably because the legal world wasn't ready for the implications of cloning/stem cell research, so they swept it under the carpet while standing from that morally high place called ignorance. It is always easier to ignore a tough topic than to hammer out a solution, like what should have been done. Lastly, I'm in law (Juris Doctorate), not a doctor, so I'm allowed to be critical of the slackers we call a legal system!
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MinMan72, PLEASE ! In no way am I baiting you or anyone else. Please read the first line of my first post...."I am not trolling for trouble or controversy." My second line begins "I do seek information." I have been looking at my wording...."took place within the 'womb'. I'm going back and change that to read ...."took place within A 'womb' because that's more accurate. Please reconsider your response with any and all thoughts of "baiting" removed.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 5:59:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By B27: Yes. Obviously. It's Imbroglio.
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CORRECT! Case solved! [beer]
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 6:13:30 PM EDT
To answer your question, I would say logically, no because if there had been, there would a huge stink from all the various groups with a dog in this fight.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 6:21:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DScott: To answer your question, I would say logically, no because if there had been, there would a huge stink from all the various groups with a dog in this fight.
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D. S., I understand your "logically no" response. But just for a moment look at the time-frame. Although I said about ten years ago the time frame could be as many as twelve years ago. I don't believe many various groups even knew there was a fight. Human cloning was still pretty much the stuff of science fiction.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 6:24:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HighlandMac:
Originally Posted By B27: Yes. Obviously. It's Imbroglio.
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CORRECT! Case solved! [beer]
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Why could it not have been oilgorbmI ? [:D] (Wait ! I know the answer to that one. Then it wouldn't be a clone.)
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 6:52:30 PM EDT
Hey 5Sub, I reread what I wrote and it didn't come across in the sarcastic way I meant it, I figured you'd get that with the "beastiality" comment! [:D] Anyway, its a hard topic to discuss without wondering what words could be used to bait. I'm always looking for a fight too, so take that with a grain of salt! There's no seperating a lawyer from himself at the end of the day, just ask my girlfriend! As far as "A womb" I think it changes things drastically, as you saw what i wrote. A petrie dish and bilogical viability always change things. I don't think this world is ready for cloning, but I do think all avenues of debate and legislation should be explored. I also looked at some of the court's reasoning and it looks like they are defering the issue to the legislature, rather than creating policy, so its not gone forever, its going to lie with the people we voted in.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 6:53:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By HighlandMac:
Originally Posted By B27: Yes. Obviously. It's Imbroglio.
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CORRECT! Case solved! [beer]
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Why could it not have been oilgorbmI ? [:D] (Wait ! I know the answer to that one. Then it wouldn't be a clone.)
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Oh yeah, what's oilgorbmI?
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 7:01:32 PM EDT
[b][i]Six is having problems adjusting to his Clone status Have to put him on the shelf. Please Don't put me on a shelf. All day long we hear him cryin' so loud..... "I just wanna be myself, I just wanna be myself, I just wanna be myself, be myself be myself yeah............."[/b][/i] At least Alice Cooper thinks so, of course he copied some of these lyrics directly from an old "B" movie called Clones or something like that. Personally, based upon our governments track record and the possibilities of numerous untold advances in genetics and bio-molecular science, I don't see how anyone could put it past the powers that be. "Clones....We're All"
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 7:17:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Minman72: I don't think this world is ready for cloning, but I do think all avenues of debate and legislation should be explored. I also looked at some of the court's reasoning and it looks like they are defering the issue to the legislature, rather than creating policy, so its not gone forever, its going to lie with the people we voted in.
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Mainly I wished to assure that no "baiting" was involved. Abortion is one of the most difficult subjects I've ever had to deal with. I'm an Agnostic and God enters my thoughts when I consider abortion. So far about as good as I've been able to for myself is to realize that "partial-birth" abortions are murder. (In my opinion.) If my daughter asked my advice about terminating a relatively early pregnancy I would advise her to strongly consider not terminating and offer my help. However, the ultimate decision (she's over 21) would remain with her and I would still love her no matter the decision. I'm glad you came back with your comments regarding the courts deferring to the legislative branch. That'w where this decision belongs - ultimately with the voters. To get back on topic for a moment I wonder if the debate the public is not yet ready to face is already moot. Let me be blunt. I believe a human has already been cloned and if this just happens to be correct the debate over cloning should move in a entirely new direction. Universities are notoriously poor at keeping secrets.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 7:19:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Minman72:
Originally Posted By 5subslr5:
Originally Posted By HighlandMac:
Originally Posted By B27: Yes. Obviously. It's Imbroglio.
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CORRECT! Case solved! [beer]
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Why could it not have been oilgorbmI ? [:D] (Wait ! I know the answer to that one. Then it wouldn't be a clone.)
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Oh yeah, what's oilgorbmI?
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Imbroglio spelled backwards ! [:D]
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 7:22:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By X--Kill: Personally, based upon our governments track record and the possibilities of numerous untold advances in genetics and bio-molecular science, I don't see how anyone could put it past the powers that be.
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I guess that since "Bush 1" was president that would be the "powers that were!" [:D]
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 7:27:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: Oh yeah, what's oilgorbmI?
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Imbroglio spelled backwards ! [:D]
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Ok wise ass! Now let me in on what Imbroglio is? I thought it was some chick singer! Do tell, do tell!
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 7:30:31 PM EDT
Let me be blunt. I believe a human has already been cloned and if this just happens to be correct the debate over cloning should move in a entirely new direction.
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Do you mean that a cloned human has actually been born, or has the procedure just gone to the petri dish stage? I'm skeptical of either possibility, at least as of ten years ago. Who would have had the resources and the motivation to not only do it, but do it in secret?
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 7:43:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed: Do you mean that a cloned human has actually been born, or has the procedure just gone to the petri dish stage? I'm skeptical of either possibility, at least as of ten years ago.
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In definite agreement here [b]Renamed[/b]. It seems some people here have been reading too many supermarket tabloids and don't have the mental capacity to screen out the BS. Next thing you know someone will start citing articles from the "Journal of Irreproducible Results" calling it a "scientific journal" they found in their University's Library. [:D]
Who would have had the resources and the motivation to not only do it, but do it in secret?
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Maybe the same team that faked all those Apollo moon landings! [whacko]
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 7:49:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Renamed:
Let me be blunt. I believe a human has already been cloned and if this just happens to be correct the debate over cloning should move in a entirely new direction.
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Do you mean that a cloned human has actually been born, or has the procedure just gone to the petri dish stage?
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I believe a human was cloned and went to fifteen weeks before the 'experiment' was terminated. And that the procedure was not done in a petri dish.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 7:52:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/26/2002 7:56:51 PM EDT by 5subslr5]
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By Renamed: Do you mean that a cloned human has actually been born, or has the procedure just gone to the petri dish stage? I'm skeptical of either possibility, at least as of ten years ago.
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In definite agreement here [b]Renamed[/b]. It seems some people here have been reading too many supermarket tabloids and don't have the mental capacity to screen out the BS. Next thing you know someone will start citing articles from the "Journal of Irreproducible Results" calling it a "scientific journal" they found in their University's Library. [:D]
Who would have had the resources and the motivation to not only do it, but do it in secret?
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Maybe the same team that faked all those Apollo moon landings! [whacko]
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If you have not already please take a look at my first post. (I don't buy the supermarket tabloids to read the articles - just to look at the pictures !)
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 8:25:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: If you have not already please take a look at my first post. (I don't buy the supermarket tabloids to read the articles - just to look at the pictures !)
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Yes, yes I have read your post. Sounds like a request for "rumor confirmation". I still stand by my above reply to Renamed and my interpretation of this thread.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 8:28:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan:
Originally Posted By 5subslr5: If you have not already please take a look at my first post. (I don't buy the supermarket tabloids to read the articles - just to look at the pictures !)
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Yes, yes I have read your post. Sounds like a request for "rumor confirmation". I still stand by my above reply to Renamed and my interpretation of this thread.
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And I thank you for your perspective.
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 9:31:52 PM EDT
The answer is yes. Many years ago, a CIA program explored the use of cloning as a means to ensure future leadership for our republic. They found a willing surregate from among the poor, single woman of Arkansas. Into her ovum, they inserted the DNA of Hitler, Napolean, Ghengis Khan, Bozo the clown, FDR and some other assorted cretans and miscreants. The resulting product rose to great prominence, and indeed ruled the world throughout much of the 90's. So, in that one case, the program was a considerable success and a good return on the taxpayers money. Some lesser known products of this program are known today as Janet Reno, Teddy Kennedy, Chuck Schumer and Dick Gepardt. Explains alot, dontcha think?
Link Posted: 1/26/2002 9:36:00 PM EDT
I consider myself somewhat knowledgable on the science/bio front........can't touch this one. In general I consider our gov fairly incompetant. Ill leave these theories to the x-files. I never heard (read) of such activities in any of the "trustworthy" black science/watchdog publications. One could pile this into the the "super-soldier" bin. Usually there is a alien DNA comment [V].............. Even so, this is a good post to hear everyones opinion on the subject. I always find the conspiracy theories interesting.
Link Posted: 1/27/2002 7:39:47 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Boomholzer: One could pile this into the the "super-soldier" bin. Usually there is a alien DNA comment [V].............. Even so, this is a good post to hear everyones opinion on the subject. I always find the conspiracy theories interesting.
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Boomholzer, I tried very hard 'NOT' to make this post into an "ailien being" - "super-soldier" -"conspiracy theory" topic." Not because I'm above discussing ailiens, super-soldiers or conspiracy theories but because these components were not a part of any even alleged experiment. Prior to beginning the alleged experiment there appears to have been agreement between the government and researchers that in the event of success the project would be terminated at the 15 week mark. The project was terminated and no super-soldiers.
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