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Posted: 10/3/2011 11:38:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 11:51:43 AM EST by PR361]
I don't consider myself a "Pistol Guy". I have pistols, shoot pistols, carry concealed, and have had pistols and shot them since the early 80's.
But my focus is accurate rifles, and hunting. Pistols have always been a sideline.

I never thought I was particularly good with a pistol(and still don't)O. I can hit things, better than a lot of folks, but in the middle of the pool.

In an effort to improve my skills, I signed up for a NRA Basic pistol class at my range. It got canceled. Still, I have made a study of reading everything I can about pistol marksmanship and watched the big dogs on TV, and studied the tips from the pros.

So today I changed my Grip and stance. My carry gun is a Glock 22 , I shot it ok, but not great. I always seemed to pull to the left. I learned to shoot in the "cup and saucer "days, and my grip was a deriviative of that style, kind of a weaver stance. Today I tried out the "push pull" with overlapped fingers and crossed thumbs.

Wow! My groups went in half, and started clustering right in the center. Not perfect, but for ME, a huge improvement.

7 yardline, slow fire, unsupported.



Why didn't sombody tell me earlier!

Yes I kow it's upside down, but that's how I stapled it up!
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 11:43:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 11:43:34 AM EST by JBlitzen]
Excellent. Always start with the fundamentals. Get those right and you *will* hit your target.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 11:45:08 AM EST
I found my biggest improvement came when I started focusing on the front sight.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 11:47:47 AM EST
I am in before the title change!

Keep shootin' OP!

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 11:50:11 AM EST
I still use the cup and saucer... It works for me.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 11:51:53 AM EST
Originally Posted By JBlitzen:
Excellent. Always start with the fundamentals. Get those right and you *will* hit your target.


I defy you to hit a prairie dog with a glock 19 at 1000 yards offhand.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 11:54:37 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 11:57:12 AM EST
Push/Pull Grip, focus on the front sight and leaning forward with my head down. That's what works the best for me.

Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:00:06 PM EST
In to say that sights and trigger control are almost everything, and grip and stance are the rest, which helps with follow up shots.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:00:58 PM EST
Nice job, but now try it under pressure or under some kind of stress
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:03:42 PM EST
The best gun-related money I've ever spent has been tuition for professional training / coaching.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:05:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 12:06:23 PM EST by stealbear]
A good grip style and lots of dry firing is better for a novice than actiually shooting.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:06:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
The best gun-related money I've ever spent has been tuition for professional training / coaching.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


this.

"You don't know what you don't know" rings true.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:09:11 PM EST
Trigger control, sight picture and grip, those are all very important, stance however, not so much. (Atleast to me anyway.)
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:12:56 PM EST
Fundamentals and repetition are really the only way to get good at pistol.

I have the standard USMC pistol training and I have found that most guys I shoot with don't even really understand the fundamentals of pistol shooting and my very basic knowledge helps them increase their accuracy remarkably. Its surprising how many pistol owners really don't know how to achieve consistent accuracy. I am always harping on people to go get training and when they do they are amazed at how simple it is to shoot well.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:13:05 PM EST
Push and pull.

Why would you want to pull in something that is coming back at you to begin with?
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:14:33 PM EST
I could always land solid groups using just about any grip, but recoil control, and thus speed, was an issue. When I learned push pull, I nearly tripled the speed at which I could land shots on an 8" plate at 7 yards.

Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:15:03 PM EST
I already learned to focus on the front sight, and I have decent trigger control after 40 years of practice, I guess FOR ME, the grip and stance were the missing elements in my pistol shooting, or at least where i had room for substantial improvement. I agree, sight picture, trigger control, but grip and stance are what makes them work.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:16:54 PM EST
The cheapest/quickest way I became a better pistol shooter was taking a TigerSwan class.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:19:13 PM EST
Originally Posted By GeorgeInNePa:
Push and pull.

Why would you want to pull in something that is coming back at you to begin with?


Opposing forces hold your muscles steadier. Think of it like the cables that hold up high tension power lines. They have them coming off all sides of the tower to counteract eachother and in the process hold the tower up even though they pull with the force of gravity.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:21:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 12:21:40 PM EST by DK-Prof]
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:23:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By Bobby_the_Hun:
Nice job, but now try it under pressure or under some kind of stress while on fire


That pretty much covers the pressure and stress part.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:28:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 12:29:48 PM EST by DriftPunch]

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
I still use the cup and saucer... It works for me.

No shit? Did someone teach you that at some point or did you just start doing it?

My dad probably suggested it 30 years ago shooting his Ruger 'Standard'.

I don't get too wrapped up in things like this... My G17 doesn't even have night sights. (Gasp )
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:30:32 PM EST
Originally Posted By wilNva:
Originally Posted By GeorgeInNePa:
Push and pull.

Why would you want to pull in something that is coming back at you to begin with?


Opposing forces hold your muscles steadier. Think of it like the cables that hold up high tension power lines. They have them coming off all sides of the tower to counteract eachother and in the process hold the tower up even though they pull with the force of gravity.


I still don't buy it.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:32:36 PM EST
Forget stance, learn to do it on the move.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:35:31 PM EST
Originally Posted By tommytrauma:
The best gun-related money I've ever spent has been tuition for professional training / coaching.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


...indeed... Completely agree.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:49:43 PM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
I still use the cup and saucer... It works for me.

No shit? Did someone teach you that at some point or did you just start doing it?


I occasionally do that as well, and don't have a huge problem doing so.


I was originally trained to shoot one-handed (for competition shooting), and the army used some kind of isosceles derived stance - so I am not sure where I picked up the cup/saucer thing.

At a tea party?
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:55:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By GeorgeInNePa:
Originally Posted By wilNva:
Originally Posted By GeorgeInNePa:
Push and pull.

Why would you want to pull in something that is coming back at you to begin with?


Opposing forces hold your muscles steadier. Think of it like the cables that hold up high tension power lines. They have them coming off all sides of the tower to counteract eachother and in the process hold the tower up even though they pull with the force of gravity.


I still don't buy it.


Your trigger hand is pushing away from your body high on the gun while your weak hand is pulling back against your strong hand fingers low on the gun helping to control the muzzle flip. Before you refuse to "buy it" you might want to take the method on a test drive.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:58:31 PM EST
crossed thumbs? as in behind the slide??

Enjoy your slide bite.

Thumbs forward grip for me.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 12:59:54 PM EST
Originally Posted By uxb:
Originally Posted By Bobby_the_Hun:
Nice job, but now try it under pressure or under some kind of stress while on fire


That pretty much covers the pressure and stress part.


Won't bother me, I'm a FIREMAN!
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 1:01:17 PM EST
Good on ya, but what is "crossed thumbs?"

Link Posted: 10/3/2011 1:02:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 1:03:28 PM EST by pr24guy]
For the Cup and Saucer guys.

By having the support hand in a 360* contact, starting with the palm covering the exposed frame and over lapping fingers with a high thumb pointed toward the target is the push pull that we speak of.
Your shooting hand is pushing towards the target and your support is pulling towards your body. It is the most stable platform to shoot from and you can hold the weapon steady while engaging mutiple threats or walking,
say for room clearing.

The cup and saucer allows for the weapon to tilt right or left during the trigger press. Depending on how tight you grip or how much finger you place in the trigger guard with the cup and saucer you will cuase more movement of the weapon.

The push/pull grip will counter any trigger mashing or tightning of the grip during fast shooting or stressful encounters.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 1:03:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By ttushooter:
crossed thumbs? as in behind the slide??

Enjoy your slide bite.

Thumbs forward grip for me.


No, Main grip hand inside, pushing support hand overlayed and pulling, with the support thumb crossed over the main one, on the side of the grip.

Link Posted: 10/3/2011 1:14:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 1:15:29 PM EST by Gage]
- 10 Internets for stapling up a peel and stick target.

YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG !!!!!
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 1:19:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 1:26:25 PM EST
Originally Posted By okiejeff:
Originally Posted By GeorgeInNePa:
Originally Posted By wilNva:
Originally Posted By GeorgeInNePa:
Push and pull.

Why would you want to pull in something that is coming back at you to begin with?


Opposing forces hold your muscles steadier. Think of it like the cables that hold up high tension power lines. They have them coming off all sides of the tower to counteract eachother and in the process hold the tower up even though they pull with the force of gravity.


I still don't buy it.


Your trigger hand is pushing away from your body high on the gun while your weak hand is pulling back against your strong hand fingers low on the gun helping to control the muzzle flip. Before you refuse to "buy it" you might want to take the method on a test drive.


Since I would have to adopt some type of Weaverish shooting stance, I don't think I'll bother.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 1:29:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 1:31:13 PM EST by TrojanMan]
Originally Posted By okiejeff:
Originally Posted By GeorgeInNePa:
Originally Posted By wilNva:
Originally Posted By GeorgeInNePa:
Push and pull.

Why would you want to pull in something that is coming back at you to begin with?


Opposing forces hold your muscles steadier. Think of it like the cables that hold up high tension power lines. They have them coming off all sides of the tower to counteract eachother and in the process hold the tower up even though they pull with the force of gravity.


I still don't buy it.


Your trigger hand is pushing away from your body high on the gun while your weak hand is pulling back against your strong hand fingers low on the gun helping to control the muzzle flip. Before you refuse to "buy it" you might want to take the method on a test drive.


Wil doesn't really describe it correctly.

Push/pull is meant to provide better control and speed for follow-up shots. It does nothing for single-shot accuracy and it actually impairs accuracy for most people.

A repeatable dominant hand grip, trigger control, and proper sight picture give you accuracy. That's all. If you can do that, you'll shoot Xs every time. But mess up any one of those things and your accuracy degrades. Hold the gun, watch the sights, squeeze the trigger. That, and only that, are what are required to hit the target (once).

A combat grip like the push/pull impairs accuracy because you're utilizing excessive muscle tension in order to minimize recoil flip. More muscle tension gives you more stress, which is an impairment to accurate shooting. It makes proper trigger control more difficult, and the straight-out hold position negatively impacts weak eye isolation for proper sight picture. It is a compromise, plain and simple. What it gives you, however, is the ability to control muzzle flip and recoil to keep rounds going to the target faster and only as accurately as they need to be. That's the point of combat shooting.

There's always a tradeoff between speed and accuracy. Push/pull, parallel thumbs, Weaver stance, etc. are all techniques that provide more speed.


The OP shot better because he was paying attention.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 1:36:15 PM EST
Originally Posted By Gage:
- 10 Internets for stapling up a peel and stick target.

YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG !!!!!


I spend a minute or two thumbing the corners trying to get the backing off or 10 seconds with my handy stapler.. easy choice!

Don't stick all that well to the chipboard target backers at my range anyway.....

Link Posted: 10/3/2011 1:36:40 PM EST
Originally Posted By GeorgeInNePa:
Since I would have to adopt some type of Weaverish shooting stance, I don't think I'll bother.


What's your stance now?
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 1:50:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By allenNH:
Originally Posted By GeorgeInNePa:
Since I would have to adopt some type of Weaverish shooting stance, I don't think I'll bother.

What's your stance now?

Link Posted: 10/3/2011 1:52:06 PM EST
It's a pirrouette first, and then he assumes the second position, and combined with his cup and saucer grip, and his pink tutu, while he's singing " I'm a little teacup", it's quite intimidating.

Link Posted: 10/3/2011 2:42:34 PM EST
OP- Don't feel too bad about missing the NRA basic pistol course.
It is what it is but if taught strickly by the NRA guidelines it is mostly a safety course . Concentrating on the very basic of fundamentals
will little or no time spent on speed and only the very basic of accuracy techniques.

Literally taught as if you had never touched a pistol or revlover.

Not designed to make you a great shooter but to keep you and those around you safe
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 3:03:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2011 3:09:51 PM EST by Badfish25]
I got away from the whole push pull thing. Now I use a thumb forward 30/70 grip (30% strong hand 70% support hand). This allowed you to maintain dexterity in your trigger finger, while controlling recoil with you support hand, just make sure to get you strong hand as high on the gun as possible.

If you really want to learn to shoot a pistol then read this book:http://www.vikingtactics.com/books_stayinfight.html

Keep praticing the fundmentals and your group will keep shrinking. target on the left is 25 yards, target on the right is 7 yards, both shot with Glock 26 with " XS big dots"


Link Posted: 10/3/2011 3:21:51 PM EST
I am not a huge fan of the Weaver or push/pull method. I can shoot well using it, but I find that I fatigue faster using it, and the constant tension begins to induce a little bit of shaking. Also, it is more difficult to transition from far-left to far-right targets. It does offer better recoil management than cup-and-saucer, and can make for a smaller target.

I prefer a good isosceles stance with my grip as high-up as possible. I keep both thumbs forward (except with revolver), and apply pressure laterally with my strong hand, and fore/aft with my weak. I have been doing very well in competitions using this, getting several first and second place finishes in my second year of competing. I feel that it controls recoil as well as any push/pull I have used, while keeping the muzzle movement vertical, resulting in better sight tracking (push/pull seems to cause the muzzle to flip at a slight angle for most people). I am also able to relax more, and recoil is distributed more evenly. Since I am square to the plane of the targets, I don't have to make adjustments to my stance in order to shoot far-left or far-right. Concerning accuracy, I usually score mid 470s out of 480 in PPC comps, using a G17 with my duty sights. Using the same pistol, with the same grip and stance, I can run a 6-plate rack (as seen in the one video a few posts up) consistently in 2.7x seconds, with my fastest time being an even 2.5. For those who haven't shot these racks, they consist of eight-inch steel targets, usually placed at approx. 31 feet. The times listed are from a ready-position. Finally, when I am at work, the stance keeps my vest and plate between me and the target.

I am not trying to brag, because a guy like Miculek or Sevigny would destroy me. I just want to let people know that a good isosceles stance is very viable for all sorts of shooting, and not just useful for guys with race-guns. Of course, there are some excellent shooters using Weaver and push/pull. As others have stated, trigger control and sight alignment are paramount. However, i think everyone should at least give isosceles a try. Like I said, I have only been competing for a couple of years, and am already doing well with it. Just something to consider.
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 4:09:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By allenNH:
Originally Posted By GeorgeInNePa:
Since I would have to adopt some type of Weaverish shooting stance, I don't think I'll bother.


What's your stance now?


Isosceles
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 4:10:11 PM EST
Originally Posted By JBlitzen:
Originally Posted By allenNH:
Originally Posted By GeorgeInNePa:
Since I would have to adopt some type of Weaverish shooting stance, I don't think I'll bother.

What's your stance now?

http://www.gonemovies.com/www/Pictures/Pictures/Godfather48NeriPolice.jpg


LOL
Link Posted: 10/3/2011 4:33:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By nhsport:
OP- Don't feel too bad about missing the NRA basic pistol course.
It is what it is but if taught strickly by the NRA guidelines it is mostly a safety course . Concentrating on the very basic of fundamentals
will little or no time spent on speed and only the very basic of accuracy techniques.

Literally taught as if you had never touched a pistol or revlover.

Not designed to make you a great shooter but to keep you and those around you safe


Gotta start someplace

I don't mind instruction, even if it's mostly redundent for me. There's always something to be learned....

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