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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 11/5/2002 12:42:49 PM EDT
I am on point for my agency to investigte a new carry policy for duty weapons. Does anone here have a policy of IODA (individually Owned Departmnt Approved) duty pistols? If so, please contact me. I am trying to get our policy changed to one that allows us to buy our own guns from a dept. approved list. I need to cite agencies tha have such a policy, and if there is any case law to support it. For example: Officer fails to qualify with issued gun, sues the dept. for not allowing he/she to carry gun X instead, which he/she qualifies with. HELP!
Link Posted: 11/5/2002 1:20:04 PM EDT
Have you considered checking with the FBI? Their policy is exactly what you’re describing. Further, LEA administrators typically get a warm and fuzzy feeling when they learn that the FBI is already doing what they are considering. If you’re interested, I suggest you call the main number at the FBI Academy at Quantico, VA, ask for the Firearms Training Unit, and describe your needs to them. They’re usually pretty helpful. I’ve never heard of any case law such as you describe. There is the well known [i]Christine Hanson vs. FBI[/i] case where a female agent apparently successfully complained to OPM that females were discriminated against since they had to qualify with 5-shot revolvers while the males qualified with 6-shot revolvers. However, I’m simplifying this case quite a bit - plus I don’t see it helping you anyway. Hope this helps. Good luck.
Link Posted: 11/5/2002 3:42:18 PM EDT
There are several agencies I would look toward for personally owned weapons policy. Your best bet is the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department. They don't require you to buy your own weapon but they strongly encourage you to do so by issuing a second generation S&W if you don't. I asked about this and they said that the "aren't in the gun business" and that as an officer, you should care enough to pick the gun the fits you best. They allow any 9mm, 40, or 45 from the major manufacturers, Beretta, Sig, Glock, H&K, even 1911's. I always cite them because they are a big agency that shows it can be done. My agency, National Park Service, allows officers to carry personally owned pistols, shotgun, and rifles, provided that they meet our requirements - currently a Sig Classic in 9mm, 40, or 45. I currently carry my personally owned P220 in 45 and will soon be carrying my new P220ST as soon as the paperwork goes through. I know that some other federal agencies allow personal weapons. The US Forest Service allows personally owned Glocks and Sigs and I believe that the Border Patrol still allows personally owned Sigs to be carried.
Link Posted: 11/6/2002 1:25:16 PM EDT
I found another case, Judy Cangaalosce vs. FBI. I also spoke with CPT. Ayoob from LFI, and he related that most cases never make it past trial, because the agencies settle before it becomes an issue. Policy changes occur shortly thereafter. Thanks for the help, and be safe. Roy
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 1:38:19 PM EDT
[b]Omaha, NE, Police Department[/b] (buy own from approved list of double action pistols) [b]La Vista Police Department[/b] (issues a S&W 9mm or a Glock .40 or you may buy your own) [b]Douglas County Sheriff's Office[/b] (buy own from approved S&W pistols) [b]Sarpy County Sheriff's Office[/b] (buy own from approved list of .40 or .45 pistols) all of them can be found on the web to get contact info.
Link Posted: 11/7/2002 11:58:15 PM EDT
Los Angeles County Sheriff's Dept, issues Beretta 92FS models (9mm) to all sworn. However, has an approved list of guns the deputies may purchase themselves, qualify and carry for on/off duty: Hk USP full size or compact .45 Ruger .45 S/W 3rd generation or newer .45 (several model variants to choose from) Beretta Cougar 8045 .45 (Not to mention several .38spl for back up guns made by Colt, Ruger, S/W and several 9mm's by the above mentioned companies as off duty/back up, including the Hk P7 M8 or M13 (9mm). The department only allows two calibers to carry for on duty primary weapons: 9mm or .45ACP. .38spl may be carried as off duty, plain cloths or as back up.
Link Posted: 11/16/2002 10:34:39 AM EDT
I found it amusing at our last qualifying that some people couldn't qualify on a 38spl+p especially when its such a light load (158g)
Link Posted: 11/16/2002 1:27:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2002 1:28:23 PM EDT by phrigid]
Personal opinion here, so bear with me. I think it's best (but certainly not the only option) to standardize the weapons that you carry so that should you run dry or lose your weapon, you can pick up another weapon/mag and be ready to go and/or be familiar with the weapon. It's against our dept. policy to use/carry a weapon that we're not qual'd on, but I'll face a disciplinary action before I'll die or let someone else die. We're issued Glock 17's, but we are allowed to carry pretty much anything we want to for a backup, as long as we qual on it first. Just my $.02 Eddittid four spelleng
Link Posted: 11/18/2002 12:13:29 PM EDT
Some agencies feel that is the best policy fr them. We are a 120 man deparment, and most of the guys feel like they should beable to carry what they are confident with. We have a few female deputies who, I'm sure, would like the option of carying a gn with a slimmer grip, and shorter trigger reach. I want to be able to carry a .45, as I have more confidence in that round. I foud the 9mm to be inefective as a fight stopper, while I was a DC cop. Some officers may want a gun with a higher capacity, and a .40, or .45 may not be rght for them. I want ALL of my department to hav confidence in what they carry. As far as the old, "what if my gun runs dry?" question, we carry M4' and 870's in every car, so that should never be an issue. Plus, we are authorized a backup of our choice as well. Using a parners magazines in a gunfight s not an issue here.
Link Posted: 11/19/2002 1:15:56 PM EDT
Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office, Tampa Fl. Deputies have to purchase own firearm from approved list. We can carry any 9mm,.357 sig , or .45 from Ruger,Beretta,Sig,H&K,Glock,or 3rd or 4th gen S&W. The agency issues shotguns but you may purchase your own, rifles are also personally owned, but can only be Colt, Bushmaster or Ruger in .223 only. As we have over 2000+ sworn personell, this policy has proven very effective for us. Deputies can carry what they are comfortable with and that goes a long way to overall confidence in your equipment.
Link Posted: 11/21/2002 1:28:56 AM EDT
The biggest problem with that line of thought is the fact that we all come in varying sizes. I stand 5-09 and have smaller hands while one of my former shift partners stood 6-09 and could probably palm a basketball when he was 3 years old! Guns that fit my hand are way too small for him and vice versa. Paul
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 5:54:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By phrigid: Personal opinion here, so bear with me. I think it's best (but certainly not the only option) to standardize the weapons that you carry so that should you run dry or lose your weapon, you can pick up another weapon/mag and be ready to go and/or be familiar with the weapon. It's against our dept. policy to use/carry a weapon that we're not qual'd on, but I'll face a disciplinary action before I'll die or let someone else die. We're issued Glock 17's, but we are allowed to carry pretty much anything we want to for a backup, as long as we qual on it first. Just my $.02 Eddittid four spelleng
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The concept also doesn't apply to every agency. I work for a state agency and 90%+ of the time I work solo. If the stuff really hits the fan, my closest backup will likely be locals in whatever area i'm in (and i'm in 4 counties). They will almost never have the same equipment. Then add to that the fact that if you run through 2 or 3 mags of ammo and haven't hit anything, what makes you think i'm gonna give you my ammo? We recently had this debate in our agency in an attempt to get a similar policy. Unfortunately, we lost, fortunately, we were able to get rid of our S&W's and all got new H&K USP's. later, AJ
Link Posted: 12/4/2002 2:00:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2002 2:02:30 PM EDT by Luckystiff]
I work for a moderate sized Sheriff's Department (85 sworn). I have been one of the 4 Range Masters for the last 4 years. When I started as a Reserve Deputy we issued the S&W 686. Only two guys carried them. Everyone else bought and used what they wanted as long as it was a 9mm, .357, .40 or .45. Life was good and everyone was happy. Then a few deputies who are prior military and SWAT guys started grumbling about "uniformity" and wanted a "quality" handgun. Well the old Sheriff bought off on it and got the Board to kick down the $$ for new guns. We ended up with the Beretta 96. This occurred as I was getting sworn in as a full time Deputy. The Board made the Sheriff make it policy that we all carry the Beretta. They said, "If we are paying for the guns your people will carry them." Well slowly over the years we have been tweaking the policy. Now you can carry other firearm, based on approval of a Range Master, as long as you are not in uniform. So dicks, narks, admin can carry what they want. The department only provides .40 ammo. So if you carry something else then the cost in on you. We qualify quarterly and fire anywhere from 20 to 100 rounds of handgun ammo per qual. We shoot what we carry. We do not have duty ammo and range ammo, it is all the same. I can tell you as a Range Master that only having one caliber of ammo to pack to the range and budget for each year is nice. The old B.S. of "If I run out of ammo my partner can give me a mag." is spoken by those who have never been in a LE gun fight were you only have 3 mags. If you and I are in a gun fight and you are out of ammo I will cover you while you retreat to the car for a shotgun or rifle but I will not hand over my ammo. If you have shot up 34 rounds before or as I am getting to the scene, we are in some deep poo and we need to get a long gun into this fight or get the hell out. A wise Range Master taught me that my handgun was for dealing with an immediate threat or to use to fight my way to a long gun. We found that having only one model of holster available to the troops was causing more of a problem that one type of handgun. This was an issue of one size/shape does not fit all and officer confidence. Some of the female Deputies, when using the standard issue holster, were dam near drawing the gun into their arm pit. Some Deputies wanted a security holster and were willing to pay for it themselves but were told no. I picked up the gantlet and lobbied the Sheriff on this issue. After two months of trials I submitted my report asking that we change over to a new holster design that included 4 different holsters that looked uniform enough next to each other yet allowed for the needs and preferences of the majority of the Deputies. Just my $.02
Link Posted: 12/4/2002 6:50:25 PM EDT
Miami-Dade Police allows officer owned weapons, on a pre-established list. Calibers are .38 Spl/9mm/.40/.45. For duty use all the autos must have at least 8 rounds. The Department mandates use of their ammo for carry, but those with .45's must bring their own qualifying ammo. May also carry personal Rem 870 or Colt AR-15 9mm (must pass carbine course and qualify annually) Issue weapons are revolvers and a transition couse to auto must be passed. As a matter of fact, a couple of years ago, they took back the revolvers of any officer who had a personal auto to issue to new recruits.
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