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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 10/4/2005 12:38:23 PM EDT
i am looking into taking a rifle class with my AR.
Pat Rogers out at Gunsite is the only instructor i know by name.

anyone have any good or bad reviews on him as an instructor or personal opinions?
what is his teaching style? i know he was a former Marine.
does he have more of a Drill Instructor (yelling screaming) type style
or laid back teaching and working you thru a problem.
basically i want to have a good time and learn to shoot my rifle and not get my ass chewed out all week. i don't work well and especially learn well under intense pressure.

it's a lot of money and time off of work and i want to get a feel for the guy before i take a class.
i don't want to get into a situation that i will regret.

if you know of an instructor who is also good and has a style more like what i am asking for shout out!.

thanks.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 12:49:17 PM EDT
I do believe Pat Rogers is a member here.

I also believe that several memebers have been to Gunsite.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 12:54:44 PM EDT
Pat's a stand up guy.
i can't speak for his teaching style but i have had instructors who were former Marines and in both cases they were Cool. i can't see a school like Gunsite having a head instructor who's a Jerk.
as the old saying goes. "don't screw the milk cow".
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 12:57:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 12:59:36 PM EDT by Combat_Jack]
Your best bet for a class with Pat is at Pat Goodales school in WV.

He is like a drill seargeant. He likes to shout things. He trys to make you fight 9the targets, not him). You will pick up new and interesting habits. Everytime I see someone get wounded in a movie, I shout "Fix it" at the top of my lungs. This is upsetting to everyone else in the movie theater.

Gunsite typically runs a more relaxed course. Men like pat Rogers and Paul Howe like to run quickly paced three day courses; Gunsite is a slower paced 5 day experience. They have a number of excellent instructors on hand.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 12:57:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bluepaddle:
does he have more of a Drill Instructor (yelling screaming) type style
or laid back teaching and working you thru a problem.

basically i want to have a good time and learn to shoot my rifle and not get my ass chewed out all week. i don't work well and especially learn well under intense pressure.



Might not be the right environment for you. You seem a little timid.

Pat's not timid on the range during training.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 1:09:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 1:10:41 PM EDT by modog]
double tap
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 1:10:13 PM EDT
Pat is a very competent instructor, and reasonably easy to get along with. He does not like whiners, so if you're having a problem, fix it, don't bitch about it. Ask for help, which he will be happy to give, but don't be a whiny cunt.

Do this before you come to class, and you will most likely have a good experience with Pat:

1)Do NOT bring shit ammo. This means Wolf, West Bumblefuckian surplus, or Norinco. You will experience malfunctions, and waste valuable class time for everyone else.

2)STAKE the gas key on your bolt carrier. If you don't know what this means, go have it done by someone who DOES know. You will experience a failure, and waste valuable class time for everyone else.

3)Do NOT bring a carbine with an aftermarket match trigger. Yes, this includes expensive ones like Knight (saw one go tits-up right next to me two months ago). You will experience a failure, and waste valuable class time for everyone else.

4)Do NOT bring some cheap-ass red dot like an OKO or C-More. You will be frustrated, and waste valuable class time for everyone else.

5)Bring good magazines. Period. Not your range beaters.

6)Bring a spare carbine, so when your OKO-scoped Armalite with a 2-stage match trigger and Super Duper Combat Bolt goes tits up because you didn't follow 3) and 4), you can pick up and drive on without wasting everyone's time.

7) Bring a LULA or Beta mag loader.

8) Bring water/Gookinaid. Bring a Camelbak, and DRINK WITHOUT BEING TOLD.

9) Have a dump pouch (not a "Dumper") on your gear. You will spend less time chasing magazines and wasting time for everyone else.

10) Believe it or not, if Pat tells you how to correct something he sees you doing, he's probably RIGHT. Don't keep on doing it your way after he's shown you three times.

11) Bring lube. TW-25B is optimal.

12) USE the goddamn lube.
Follow these simple rules, and you will have fun and learn a lot.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 1:13:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By modog:
Pat is a very competent instructor, and reasonably easy to get along with. He does not like whiners, so if you're having a problem, fix it, don't bitch about it. Ask for help, which he will be happy to give, but don't be a whiny cunt.

Do this before you come to class, and you will most likely have a good experience with Pat:
{snip}



Good advice for anyone going to any class, thanks for the post modog
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 1:25:27 PM EDT
Gunsite 223....awesome course with Giles Stock as instructor.......I was ex GI and had used guns all my life. It was at Gunsite that I finally learned to shoot....it was worth every penny!!
A grand experience. Go ready, willing, and able to take in all that is offered...it can be hard work...be ready physically and mentally. It is not a vacation but will be a truly rewarding experience.
I have been to Gunsite twice. Great part of the country.....coyotes howling at night...not far from the Grand Canyon....great food in Prescott....cool town to visit up at Williams.....most of all great people!!
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 1:29:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By LTVN68:
....cool town to visit up at Williams.....



Just don't order a well-done steak at Kitty's....
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 1:36:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By bluepaddle:
does he have more of a Drill Instructor (yelling screaming) type style
or laid back teaching and working you thru a problem.

basically i want to have a good time and learn to shoot my rifle and not get my ass chewed out all week. i don't work well and especially learn well under intense pressure.



Might not be the right environment for you. You seem a little timid.

Pat's not timid on the range during training.



Damn, did you just call the guy a pussy?
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 1:42:27 PM EDT
This is from Coopers Commentaries.. "Note that Pat Rogers, one of the fully qualified masters of the modern technique, has now separated himself completely from Gunsite, and may reestablish himself at a new location in Virginia"
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 2:54:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By IronSamVane:
This is from Coopers Commentaries.. "Note that Pat Rogers, one of the fully qualified masters of the modern technique, has now separated himself completely from Gunsite, and may reestablish himself at a new location in Virginia"



That is a fact. He and the administration were not seeing eye to eye.

Larry Mudgett is at Gunsite now, as an Adjunct. If you're lucky, he'll be one of your instructors. The man is VERY good at what he does.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 3:29:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 3:58:45 PM EDT
Call ahead to Gunsite, they can give you some info about who the instructors will be for each class.

The info that modog gave is very good advice. Do not put a bunch of unproven gadgets on your weapon, it WILL FAIL. A backup gun is a very good idea, at least a extra bolt and carrier if you don't have access to a second weapon.

LTVN68 suggested Giles Stock as an instructor. This guy is great. I believe he is the kind of instructor you are looking for. I took a basic pistol class as my first formal instruction and Giles was the teacher. He will teach you trigger control as the basis to shooting. Every time you look through the sights of a weapon you will think of Giles saying "Front sight, press", and guess what, it works. Look into Giles' classes. You won't regret it.

Burl1
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 4:02:30 PM EDT
+1 on the other comments.
I have taken training from both Pat and Giles.

Pat is an excellent instructor, if you screw up he will correct you. If you keep doing it wrong, he will raise his voice some.
I don't remember being relaxed at either the .223 or 5.56 classes.

Giles is also excellent, he is a mellow individual but will catch you if you screw up.

You can't go wrong with Gunsite or going to Pat's travelling class. Pay particular attention to Modogs comments. You will learn if your gear works and what to deep six.

Stay safe

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:24:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bluepaddle:
i am looking into taking a rifle class with my AR.
Pat Rogers out at Gunsite is the only instructor i know by name.

anyone have any good or bad reviews on him as an instructor or personal opinions?
what is his teaching style? i know he was a former Marine.
does he have more of a Drill Instructor (yelling screaming) type style
or laid back teaching and working you thru a problem.
basically i want to have a good time and learn to shoot my rifle and not get my ass chewed out all week. i don't work well and especially learn well under intense pressure.

it's a lot of money and time off of work and i want to get a feel for the guy before i take a class.
i don't want to get into a situation that i will regret.

if you know of an instructor who is also good and has a style more like what i am asking for shout out!.

thanks.



I would venture to say that Pat Rogers is not for you. He does not teach how to shoot. He teaches how to fight, and that can be intense. Some thrive on that intensity, others do not.

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:33:05 AM EDT
he just finished a pistol/carbine course at quantico a lot of arf.kommers attended. they all seemed to like his class. there's a thread on it in the virginia hometown forums.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 5:58:38 AM EDT
thanks for all the good info.
right now i just want to learn to shoot the gun plus some movement.
there is a lot of time to learn all the tactical stuff but if i don't get the basics down first i WILL get confused.

sounds like Giles is the man to see.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:22:56 AM EDT
I have attended all three of Gunsite's carbine class, 223, 556, and ATCP (Advanced Tactical Carbine Problems). Pat Rogers is the lead instructor and range master in both my 556 and ATCP class.

Instructor:
Pat is one of the best carbine instructor in the business. He have very extensive backgorund in law enforcement, marines, and other black operations. He have alot of knowledge, chances are he have forgotten more than I have learned in the 10 days I spent with him at Gunsite. Pay attention to his comments and insights from the selection of gear, marksmanship, to combat mind set. He also have tons of stories, and some are very colorful.

Coursers
223 is the basic carbine, learning how to shoot , operate, and fight with the carbine in general conditions. Relatively relaxed pace, including the basic drills, transition, night shooting, and night tactics. I went thru the class with a Colt M4 and ACOG TA01NSN. Excellent basic field rifle/carbine marksmanship class.

556 is how to fight with the carbine in CQB conditions, high speed low drag stuff. Introduction to NSR (Non-Standard Response) and other technique. Lots of shoot house, intro to carbine simunations, and since we have a small 556 class, we actually did 2 nights of night shooting and house clearing plus some team clearing. At the end of the class, we were intruoduced to the US Marine MOUSOC qualification course of fire. I took the course with a Colt M4, Surefire 9P light, and Aimpoint.

ATCP is set up foe team (two man) operation, slow and deliberate approach instead of dynamic entry. Each day, the class starts with the MOUSOC, and the aim is to have all the shooters shoot at least 80% and above. Day one involves one man clearing, day 2 and beyond are team tactics. Lots of house clearing, outdoor clearing, and simunitions. Since it is a team class, best if you take the class with your partner or friend. Teams are formed on day one, and remain unchanged thru the class. I took the class with a Colt M4, Surefire M900 light, and EO Tech. My EO Tech was not very well accepted by Pat since he have experienced lots of failure.

Since this is my first team tactics class, I was a bit lost, but it prepared me very well for my Surefire Low Light Instructor Course with Bill Murphy several moths later, which everything start to make sense. I was hoping to go back to Gunsite to repeat ATCP again, and was informed that the class was cancelled until further notice, and both Pat Rogers and Louie Arwbuck have left Gunsite.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:44:42 AM EDT
I've taken a class with Pat, though not at Gunsite, and recommend him highly. Here's my review:

mywebpages.comcast.net/shooter2_indy/carbine04.html

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:51:31 AM EDT
Ken Cambpell taugh a CTP class last May, I am unsure if he will continue to do so in the future.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:10:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 9:15:42 AM EDT by AcidGambit]
Pat is a good guy and a helluva instructor.

I don't think he instructs at Gunsite any longer...

He is easy to get along with (if you're not a dick) and he is funny, also very un-pc... If your sensitive, you may want to remember that. I learned a shitload from him.

Oh yea, bring an open mind.

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:19:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hk940:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By bluepaddle:
does he have more of a Drill Instructor (yelling screaming) type style
or laid back teaching and working you thru a problem.
basically i want to have a good time and learn to shoot my rifle and not get my ass chewed out all week. i don't work well and especially learn well under intense pressure.


Might not be the right environment for you. You seem a little timid.
Pat's not timid on the range during training.


Damn, did you just call the guy a pussy?


Beautiful exchange. Get some training and several thousand rounds under your belt and then sign up for Pat. If there were only one instructor that I would pay to train with for the rest of my life, it would be Pat.

Listen closely and and pay attention at all times. Don't fuck up. If you do, pray that all happens is getting the moose cock. . . .
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:01:15 AM EDT
He likes to hit students though. I haven't loaded a mag right handed since! And even if it's dark, he can still se you fucking up
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:05:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AcidGambit:
Pat is a good guy and a helluva instructor.

I don't think he instructs at Gunsite any longer...

He is easy to get along with (if you're not a dick) and he is funny, also very un-pc... If your sensitive, you may want to remember that. I learned a shitload from him.

Oh yea, bring an open mind.




Yeah, forgot about that part. AR15.com mods should probably not attend....the language and anecdotes would put sand in their vulvas.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:16:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By bluepaddle:
does he have more of a Drill Instructor (yelling screaming) type style
or laid back teaching and working you thru a problem.

basically i want to have a good time and learn to shoot my rifle and not get my ass chewed out all week. i don't work well and especially learn well under intense pressure.



Might not be the right environment for you. You seem a little timid.

Pat's not timid on the range during training.




Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:18:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hk940:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By bluepaddle:
does he have more of a Drill Instructor (yelling screaming) type style
or laid back teaching and working you thru a problem.

basically i want to have a good time and learn to shoot my rifle and not get my ass chewed out all week. i don't work well and especially learn well under intense pressure.



Might not be the right environment for you. You seem a little timid.

Pat's not timid on the range during training.



Damn, did you just call the guy a pussy?



Um, not intentionally.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:22:20 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 10:50:34 AM EDT by leungken]
Oh I forgot, bring a "Yes Pat!" sign when you attend his class. In my CTP class, one of the guy stuck the sign to the back of his tactical vest instead of the "POLICE" sign.


He likes to hit students though. I haven't loaded a mag right handed since! And even if it's dark, he can still see you fucking up


Yes, he is not PC especially with the moose thingy when you screw up big time (I got my award when I hit the hostage square in the head in the shoot house, and it was a deliberate shot), and occational hit you to renforce what you are doing wrong, but in real life, those mistakes might be yours or someone elses life.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:29:36 AM EDT
Damn straight. I don't mind the hitting. I think it works. Just warning the guy who started the thread.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:46:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 10:57:03 AM EDT by FLGreg]

Originally Posted By El_Abogado:
Get some training and several thousand rounds under your belt and then sign up for Pat. If there were only one instructor that I would pay to train with for the rest of my life, it would be Pat.



+1. A lot of these guys have certain prerequisites to get into their advanced classes – like a basic rifle/carbine class from another recognized instructor/school.

The Tactical Carbine class he teaches down here is always sold out with a waiting list.

Like someone already said - he teaches fighting....not shooting and manual of arms (something that you cannot get from 'plinking' a few weekends a month at a normal range). You are expected to know all of that already.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:55:10 AM EDT

Damn straight. I don't mind the hitting. I think it works. Just warning the guy who started the thread.

Pain is always a good reminder not to make the same mistake again. When I took my SF Low Light Instructor Class, the only armor used in a face mask, cup, and gloves (for banging too hard onto wall and doors) for simunition training, learn tons.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 11:18:26 AM EDT
"Pain is the best teacher, but no one wants to go to his class."

Seriously, Pat Runs a hell of a carbine class. I just saw that he does a class with Tarani that focuses on short range threats... stuff where you don't have a longarm and you have to work to retain your handgun. That seems to be a weak link in most curriculum.
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