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Posted: 10/12/2005 6:04:02 PM EDT
Let me preface this thread by saying I work in a hospital so I have a general knowledge of these types of things. Not an expert by any means, but versed in it. The informed will realize that the current "Bird Flu" in SE Asia, while having a 65% mortality rate, has yet to make the crucial human to human jump which would then bode POORLY for the rest of us. So we're safe so far. And the 65% mortality rate must be put into perspective: these are happening in third world countries like Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. Not exactly beacons of the advanced medical world.

Okay, now on with the question being posed. We know that the Pentagon is studying (at W's behest) ways of quarantining large areas or large groups of people if a pandemic should break out. Obviously not a pretty picture. People won't like the idea of being told "Sorry, but you have to stay here and die" as opposed to trying to get away to a "clean" area. And being told so at gunpoint no less.

Do you think guns would be the first to go? I can't see something on a scale so large as a military enforced quarantine within our borders going over well period, let alone with an estimated 60 million gun owners being told they have to just stay in place and most likely die like good little citizens. You know, "take one for the team". No, I see something REALLY BAD happening IF this ever goes down. It ain't just gun-guys we're talking about. It's about EVERYONE around you and their parental instincts as well as their own self-preservation at stake.        
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:07:05 PM EDT
[#1]
"its the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine"
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:12:08 PM EDT
[#2]
I bet all your guns not one single LEO refuses an order to take them.
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:16:46 PM EDT
[#3]
It would probably depend on where the quarantine took place.

In one of the gun free uthopias like New York, DC, Chicago or San Francisco it would probably go off without a hitch. In someplace that's teaming with guns like Dallas, Phoenix, Miami or Atlanta it would probably be a much more difficult prospect. There are alot of well armed people in this country who have either military experience, civilian firearms training or both that would not be too pleased with having the military start calling the shots. I think that the Americans could probably put up an "insurgency" that would make Iraq look like a Boy Scout camping trip.
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:21:39 PM EDT
[#4]
You're forgetting one very important thing:  Once an area is quarrantined, most logical folks (LEO's included) will not want to venture into that area to do ANYTHING, much less get into potential situations which will put them in harm's way and risk being wounded in the middle of a bunch of dying and sick people.  but your question is good-I am suprised it has taken this long for ArfCom to ponder it. As a former LEO and tactical team member with over 15 year's experience, I would see this as a roadblock-only situation.  The numbers are just not there to do much of anything else.  And as far as the military is concerned, our military is having a hard enough time patrolling a country about the size of Arizona, in which maybe a few thousand folks are trying to do them harm.  But here? With the millions of armed people who will see this as an end of the world situation? Whatever happened, it would be very ugly.
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:22:45 PM EDT
[#5]
I think you could clean the virus or bacteria or whatever off your gun using alcohol or a bleach solution.   Then there wouyldn't be any reason to worry about them in the quarantined environment.
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:24:41 PM EDT
[#6]
Panic + fear for your life + guys with guns forcefully restraining you into a death area + you have your own guns = ONE HELL OF A MAJOR PROBLEM.


Something tells me that at that point "Support the Troops" wouldn't be quite the catchy phrase it is now.
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:27:18 PM EDT
[#7]
This sounds like a SF topic.  Best strategy assuming your area has been quarantined is to remain in your well stocked home and wait for everyone around you to die or get better.  Anyone comes knocking...

If they want to drag your ass off to a quarantine camp or somesuch, might as well put up a fight, since you're now dead either way.  I'd be happier and more likely to get better sick and holed up in a house than sick on a cot in a sports stadium surrounded by other sick people in conditions of terrible hygiene.  
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:30:28 PM EDT
[#8]
Lets say it was some new bad ass flu bug illness.  Any contact with anyone else spread the bug.  You are in the quarantined area.  You are not sure if you were infected yet.  Shit is hitting the fan.  Lots of people dieing, mass sucidies, lotting, riots, no food etc.  You have a chance to leave the quarantine on a secert ungerground railroad.  Would you?

Matt
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:31:36 PM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:

The informed will realize that the current "Bird Flu" in SE Asia,  has yet to make the crucial human to human jump  





A nurse got it from a patient, NOT from a bird.  
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:32:50 PM EDT
[#10]

Quoted:

I bet all your guns not one single LEO refuses an order to take them.




   
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:41:10 PM EDT
[#11]
I bet the cops are put on roadblock and quarantine duty, meaning they won't be patrolling the beat (except to enforce curfew if there is one).  

That means everything inside the quarantine zone just became "Escape from New York"-style chaotic anarchy.

Best to bug in, maybe organize a neighborhood defense zone (if you trust your neighbors) like after Hurricane Andrew, to prevent looters.  Most folks would be surprised how the non-ghetto-hood folks will share and share alike with food.

Guns?   If they want to haul YOU off to a quarantine camp, you're dead already, regardless of whether you're infected or not.  Either don't answer the door, or give them the gun -- bullets first.
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:42:59 PM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:
Let me preface this thread by saying I work in a hospital so I have a general knowledge of these types of things. Not an expert by any means, but versed in it. The informed will realize that the current "Bird Flu" in SE Asia, while having a 65% mortality rate, has yet to make the crucial human to human jump which would then bode POORLY for the rest of us. So we're safe so far. And the 65% mortality rate must be put into perspective: these are happening in third world countries like Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. Not exactly beacons of the advanced medical world.

Okay, now on with the question being posed. We know that the Pentagon is studying (at W's behest) ways of quarantining large areas or large groups of people if a pandemic should break out. Obviously not a pretty picture. People won't like the idea of being told "Sorry, but you have to stay here and die" as opposed to trying to get away to a "clean" area. And being told so at gunpoint no less.

Do you think guns would be the first to go? I can't see something on a scale so large as a military enforced quarantine within our borders going over well period, let alone with an estimated 60 million gun owners being told they have to just stay in place and most likely die like good little citizens. You know, "take one for the team". No, I see something REALLY BAD happening IF this ever goes down. It ain't just gun-guys we're talking about. It's about EVERYONE around you and their parental instincts as well as their own self-preservation at stake.        





It's strange you posted this topic, I just finished reading the following article and was going to ask the same question.


Ron Paul says avian flu martial law provisions are designed to destroy 2nd Amendment, Posse Comitatus

Congressman Ron Paul has accused the Bush administration of attempting to set in motion a militarized police state in America by enacting gun confiscation martial law provisions in the event of an avian flu pandemic. Paul also slammed as delusional and dangerous plans to invade Iran, Syria, North Korea and China.

Ron Paul represents the 14th Congressional district of Texas. He also serves on the House of Representatives Financial Services Committee, and the International Relations committee.

"I think there's a lot more excitement coming and it's not going to be good for the Republicans," stated Paul.

"The things that I hear have to do with Karl Rove and Abramoff and that's much much worse than anybody would believe and it involves DeLay as well."

"And that type of an indictment will be much more serious than the indictment of shifting campaign funds around.....there's some political infighting which could make that really interesting."

On the subject of the police state, Paul stated, "If we don't change our ways we will go the way of Rome and I see that as rather sad.....the worst things happen when you get the so-called Republican conservatives in charge from Nixon on down, big government flourishes under Republicans."

"It's really hard to believe it's happening right in front of us. Whether it's the torture or the process of denying habeas corpus to an American citizen."

"I think the arrogance of power that they have where they themselves are like Communists....in the sense that they decide what is right. The Communist Party said that they decided what was right or wrong, it wasn't a higher source."

Paul responded to President Bush's announcement last week that he would order the use of military assets to police America in the event of an avian flu outbreak.

"To me it's so strange that the President can make these proposals and it's even plausible. When he talks about martial law dealing with some epidemic that might come later on and having forced quarantines, doing away with Posse Comitatus in order to deal with natural disasters, and hardly anybody says anything. People must be scared to death."

Paul, himself a medical doctor, agreed that the bird flu threat was empty fearmongering.
"I believe it is the President hyping this and Rumsfeld, but it has to be in combination with the people being fearful enough that they will accept the man on the white horse. My first reaction going from my political and medical background is that it's way overly hyped and to think that they have gone this far with it, without a single case in the whole country and they're willing to change the law and turn it into a military state? That is unbelievable! They're determined to have martial law."

Paul opined that the martial law provisions now being promoted by the Bush administration were a direct response to people's unwillingness to relinquish their firearms, as was seen in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina.

"I think they're concerned about the remnant, the remnant of those individuals who don't buy into stuff and think that they should take care of themselves on their own, that they should have their own guns and their own provisions and they don't want to depend on the government at all and I think that is a threat to those who want to hold power. They don't want any resistance to their authoritarian rule."
Paul opined that the government was on a delusional power trip that threatened the country.
"These guys are ready to start a war with Iran, Syria, North Korea or China. They can't possibly do that, it's so insane, we don't have the money, we don't have the troops, we probably don't even have the ammunition."

"But, if they are truly delusional they just might do something that's totally irrational."
Paul expressed his hope that finally some conservatives are waking up to the fact that the Bush administration is a trojan horse, especially after arch-liberal Harriet Miers was chosen by Bush to supposedly move the Supreme Court to the right, even though her record is atrocious and she has been involved in the past covering up for the Bush crime family's activities.
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:43:31 PM EDT
[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The informed will realize that the current "Bird Flu" in SE Asia,  has yet to make the crucial human to human jump  





A nurse got it from a patient, NOT from a bird.  




Hadn't heard that one. Got a link? NOT good news if true.

I'm sure some of you are gonna love this, but my healthcare job is just that---a JOB, nothing more. It pays my bills. It is NOT a calling from God or something that's my lifelong dream. I'm not a civil servant and don't get the civil service bennies or retirement. I would have NO intention of going in to work only to sacrifice myself and succumb while treating the other ill bastards. Sorry Charlie. Ain't gonna happen. If you don't have a vaccine for me when I hit the door I'm outta there! I'll be out among the masses---well armed---taking my chances.

However, if they had a vaccine then I'd consider going in and doing my JOB.    
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:43:35 PM EDT
[#14]

Quoted:
I bet all your guns not one single LEO refuses an order to take them.




There was a time not too long ago that I would've disagreed with that sentiment. Now, however.....
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:45:33 PM EDT
[#15]
I'm a nurse, I asked an infectious disease doc the other day about the bird flu. He said (if the threat actually materializes)as long as you don't get sneezed on it's OK. It's contact precautions only...that being said, I do have some N-95 mask to make me feel better.

If there was a quarantine, I feel for you guys that live in a city.

That is all.
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:49:01 PM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:

The informed will realize that the current "Bird Flu" in SE Asia,  has yet to make the crucial human to human jump  





A nurse got it from a patient, NOT from a bird.  



Actually, it was the mother of a victim...that's why they are worried (IF she actually got it AND if she actually got it from the daughter).
BUT (see my above post) the same doctor I spoke to (who teaches infectious disease to residents at Tulane) said he isn't sure he believes that story either...consider the individuals doing the verification of all that.
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:52:06 PM EDT
[#17]
.
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:52:48 PM EDT
[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

The informed will realize that the current "Bird Flu" in SE Asia,  has yet to make the crucial human to human jump  





A nurse got it from a patient, NOT from a bird.  




Hadn't heard that one. Got a link? NOT good news if true.

I'm sure some of you are gonna love this, but my healthcare job is just that---a JOB, nothing more. It pays my bills. It is NOT a calling from God or something that's my lifelong dream. I'm not a civil servant and don't get the civil service bennies or retirement. I would have NO intention of going in to work only to sacrifice myself and succumb while treating the other ill bastards. Sorry Charlie. Ain't gonna happen. If you don't have a vaccine for me when I hit the door I'm outta there! I'll be out among the masses---well armed---taking my chances.

However, if they had a vaccine then I'd consider going in and doing my JOB.    





You must not be direct patient care....if you were you'd grab your PPE and do your joh safely.
Now, if was "hollywood bad" and some kind of Eboli type mystery shit...see ya you sorry sons a bitches. I'll be at home, dug in, listening to you on the radio.

ETA: Vaccine when you hit the door??? You aren't in patient care.
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:57:46 PM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

The informed will realize that the current "Bird Flu" in SE Asia,  has yet to make the crucial human to human jump  





A nurse got it from a patient, NOT from a bird.  




Hadn't heard that one. Got a link? NOT good news if true.

I'm sure some of you are gonna love this, but my healthcare job is just that---a JOB, nothing more. It pays my bills. It is NOT a calling from God or something that's my lifelong dream. I'm not a civil servant and don't get the civil service bennies or retirement. I would have NO intention of going in to work only to sacrifice myself and succumb while treating the other ill bastards. Sorry Charlie. Ain't gonna happen. If you don't have a vaccine for me when I hit the door I'm outta there! I'll be out among the masses---well armed---taking my chances.

However, if they had a vaccine then I'd consider going in and doing my JOB.    





You must not be direct patient care....if you were you'd grab your PPE and do your joh safely.
Now, if was "hollywood bad" and some kind of Eboli type mystery shit...see ya you sorry sons a bitches. I'll be at home, dug in, listening to you on the radio.



I'm a Respiratory Therapist and would be right in their coughing, hacking faces. Until a micron size could be determined I'm not taking ANYONE's word on PPE effectiveness---especially since if they're wrong I have a greater than 50% chance of croaking!
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 6:58:10 PM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:

A nurse got it from a patient, NOT from a bird.  




Hadn't heard that one. Got a link?  




CNN news story on it.
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 7:02:07 PM EDT
[#21]
A little off subject, but anyone know what a good brand of gasmask is? Are there different kinds? Looking for something that with a good filter. Something fairly comfortable that will do its job
i.e protect my ass from the superflu while Im hunkering down. How expensive are they? Good brands,etc? Thanks
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 7:02:07 PM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Let me preface this thread by saying I work in a hospital so I have a general knowledge of these types of things. Not an expert by any means, but versed in it. The informed will realize that the current "Bird Flu" in SE Asia, while having a 65% mortality rate, has yet to make the crucial human to human jump which would then bode POORLY for the rest of us. So we're safe so far. And the 65% mortality rate must be put into perspective: these are happening in third world countries like Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. Not exactly beacons of the advanced medical world.

Okay, now on with the question being posed. We know that the Pentagon is studying (at W's behest) ways of quarantining large areas or large groups of people if a pandemic should break out. Obviously not a pretty picture. People won't like the idea of being told "Sorry, but you have to stay here and die" as opposed to trying to get away to a "clean" area. And being told so at gunpoint no less.

Do you think guns would be the first to go? I can't see something on a scale so large as a military enforced quarantine within our borders going over well period, let alone with an estimated 60 million gun owners being told they have to just stay in place and most likely die like good little citizens. You know, "take one for the team". No, I see something REALLY BAD happening IF this ever goes down. It ain't just gun-guys we're talking about. It's about EVERYONE around you and their parental instincts as well as their own self-preservation at stake.        





It's strange you posted this topic, I just finished reading the following article and was going to ask the same question.


Ron Paul says avian flu martial law provisions are designed to destroy 2nd Amendment, Posse Comitatus

Congressman Ron Paul has accused the Bush administration of attempting to set in motion a militarized police state in America by enacting gun confiscation martial law provisions in the event of an avian flu pandemic. Paul also slammed as delusional and dangerous plans to invade Iran, Syria, North Korea and China.

Ron Paul represents the 14th Congressional district of Texas. He also serves on the House of Representatives Financial Services Committee, and the International Relations committee.

"I think there's a lot more excitement coming and it's not going to be good for the Republicans," stated Paul.

"The things that I hear have to do with Karl Rove and Abramoff and that's much much worse than anybody would believe and it involves DeLay as well."

"And that type of an indictment will be much more serious than the indictment of shifting campaign funds around.....there's some political infighting which could make that really interesting."

On the subject of the police state, Paul stated, "If we don't change our ways we will go the way of Rome and I see that as rather sad.....the worst things happen when you get the so-called Republican conservatives in charge from Nixon on down, big government flourishes under Republicans."

"It's really hard to believe it's happening right in front of us. Whether it's the torture or the process of denying habeas corpus to an American citizen."

"I think the arrogance of power that they have where they themselves are like Communists....in the sense that they decide what is right. The Communist Party said that they decided what was right or wrong, it wasn't a higher source."

Paul responded to President Bush's announcement last week that he would order the use of military assets to police America in the event of an avian flu outbreak.

"To me it's so strange that the President can make these proposals and it's even plausible. When he talks about martial law dealing with some epidemic that might come later on and having forced quarantines, doing away with Posse Comitatus in order to deal with natural disasters, and hardly anybody says anything. People must be scared to death."

Paul, himself a medical doctor, agreed that the bird flu threat was empty fearmongering.
"I believe it is the President hyping this and Rumsfeld, but it has to be in combination with the people being fearful enough that they will accept the man on the white horse. My first reaction going from my political and medical background is that it's way overly hyped and to think that they have gone this far with it, without a single case in the whole country and they're willing to change the law and turn it into a military state? That is unbelievable! They're determined to have martial law."

Paul opined that the martial law provisions now being promoted by the Bush administration were a direct response to people's unwillingness to relinquish their firearms, as was seen in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina.

"I think they're concerned about the remnant, the remnant of those individuals who don't buy into stuff and think that they should take care of themselves on their own, that they should have their own guns and their own provisions and they don't want to depend on the government at all and I think that is a threat to those who want to hold power. They don't want any resistance to their authoritarian rule."
Paul opined that the government was on a delusional power trip that threatened the country.
"These guys are ready to start a war with Iran, Syria, North Korea or China. They can't possibly do that, it's so insane, we don't have the money, we don't have the troops, we probably don't even have the ammunition."

"But, if they are truly delusional they just might do something that's totally irrational."
Paul expressed his hope that finally some conservatives are waking up to the fact that the Bush administration is a trojan horse, especially after arch-liberal Harriet Miers was chosen by Bush to supposedly move the Supreme Court to the right, even though her record is atrocious and she has been involved in the past covering up for the Bush crime family's activities.

                                                                                                                                                  This of course is what all gun owners knew would eventually come to light.The only way for the government try to trounce the rights of an armed population is to disarm them.What better excuse than a pandemic.
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 7:10:20 PM EDT
[#23]

Quoted:
You're forgetting one very important thing:  Once an area is quarrantined, most logical folks (LEO's included) will not want to venture into that area to do ANYTHING, much less get into potential situations which will put them in harm's way and risk being wounded in the middle of a bunch of dying and sick people.  but your question is good-I am suprised it has taken this long for ArfCom to ponder it. As a former LEO and tactical team member with over 15 year's experience, I would see this as a roadblock-only situation.  The numbers are just not there to do much of anything else.  And as far as the military is concerned, our military is having a hard enough time patrolling a country about the size of Arizona, in which maybe a few thousand folks are trying to do them harm.  But here? With the millions of armed people who will see this as an end of the world situation? Whatever happened, it would be very ugly.



Yamamoto wasn't dumb:

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

Still, even if one *could* invade it (i.e. all enemies, foreign and domestic), how would one *keep* it?
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 7:15:40 PM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:
There are alot of well armed people in this country who have either military experience, civilian firearms training or both that would not be too pleased with having the military start calling the shots. I think that the Americans could probably put up an "insurgency" that would make Iraq look like a Boy Scout camping trip.


+1
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 7:17:21 PM EDT
[#25]
When I die in my blaze of glory against the gun-grabbing quaranteen, will ya'll build me a cool statue like in Red Dawn?

Link Posted: 10/12/2005 7:19:52 PM EDT
[#26]
Molon Labe!
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 8:04:11 PM EDT
[#27]
Was watching invasion tonight.  They were talking about all the checkpoints, roadblocks, etc.

So, it occurred to me, what is the best caliber for removing roadblocks?  

I am starting to see a need for .50 bmg.  
Link Posted: 10/12/2005 9:19:39 PM EDT
[#28]

Quoted:
You're forgetting one very important thing:  Once an area is quarrantined, most logical folks (LEO's included) will not want to venture into that area to do ANYTHING, much less get into potential situations which will put them in harm's way and risk being wounded in the middle of a bunch of dying and sick people.  but your question is good-I am suprised it has taken this long for ArfCom to ponder it. As a former LEO and tactical team member with over 15 year's experience, I would see this as a roadblock-only situation.  The numbers are just not there to do much of anything else.  And as far as the military is concerned, our military is having a hard enough time patrolling a country about the size of Arizona, in which maybe a few thousand folks are trying to do them harm.  But here? With the millions of armed people who will see this as an end of the world situation? Whatever happened, it would be very ugly.



True but in an infected area, my guess is that the local LEO's will be treated as an ordinary citizen and they'll be the first to be disarmed because they'll be known to be armed. Then I think the local LEO's will be herded in with the rest of us because you'll be infected too. They may bring in Law Enforcement from other areas to guard roads and stuff but my guess is that mostly it will be military manning road blocks and doing most of the policing work. Will be a nasty mess either way.

Question for LEO, do you think you and your fellow officers will willingly be disarmed or will you resist?
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 4:08:48 AM EDT
[#29]
Anyone see the news this morning? MSN.com says the Avian flu has reached Europe. Hasn't hit humans yet, but has been found in poultry in Turkey (no pun intended) and Romania.

Stock your freezers with chicken NOW. If this shit continues to spread poultry will be priced like caviar.

Anyone remember the Steven King movie "The Stand"? I think I'll see if I can rent it.



Oh, and arrange that "boating accident" soon!
Link Posted: 10/13/2005 4:20:16 AM EDT
[#30]
Not all LEOs will confiscate... but there will be more than enough that will.  That's the problem... as the 'good' ones get frustrated and quit with the trampling of rights, a job position opens up for those who have no qualms about doing just that.  Eventually all positions will be filled with the corrupt type because the good ones will have no stomach for it.

So, all you LEO's who get disenfranchised with all of the corruption and JBTs that are installed in departments, the best thing you can do is to stay in your position and refuse to leave and do the right thing!
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