User Panel
Posted: 1/8/2006 12:18:34 AM EDT
At least we are exporting something
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Hell I could build at least two for that price |
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yeah, uh, shut down the border. hey mexico, you should build a wall.
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Um.. most guns are brought up from South America.. Generally the only guns that are (illegally) exported are to Jamaica...
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Yes, quite true, but that (the truth) wouldn't sound as good to the commie LATimes as the gun grabbing nonsense that "reporter" spewed. |
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right... |
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sounds like Mexico is trying to be like canada and blame us for their problems.
F.. both of em. |
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Those guns are just shooting the ammo the Mexican guns won't shoot.
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Huh? My dept alone has investigated at least 3 large export smuggling cases within the last two years, from one gun shop going to Mx.... |
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Good. I hope that our guns are causing as much grief for Mexico as their chief export is causing us.
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Dear sir, I could not agree more. +1 -HS |
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So....That stringent gun control law in Mexico is working out OK for you guys, then?
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So they have a problem with the guns but the drug running and cartels are not a problem. Get rid of the cartels and the illegal guns will go away. |
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Page 2 of that article is even better.
Some excerpts: "... The salespeople at the store speak Spanish, but the sign over a display case of semiautomatic handguns is in English: "If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns." "... Mexican police have, in recent years, confiscated a handful of bazookas from organized-crime groups. Mexican and U.S. officials say a very small amount of military surplus from recent wars in Central America has found its way into Mexico. But U.S. officials say a bazooka recovered recently from suspected drug cartel hit men in Mexico was traced to an Army depot in Arkansas — the weapon had been deposited there and last accounted for in 1967." "... The AR-15 is the civilian, semiautomatic equivalent of the M-16 used by U.S. troops since the Vietnam War. The AK-47 was designed by Mikhail Kalashnikov for the Soviet army in 1947. In Mexican street slang both are known as "el cuerno de chivo" — "the goat's horn" — for the distinctive shape of their bullet clips." "... With that weapon, you can do incredible things," Ortiz Campos said. The AK-47 is not only powerful, it's also idiot-proof, he added. "It will fire underwater." "... U.S. and Mexican officials say they are also concerned by the presence of .50-caliber machine guns in Mexico. Originally designed as antiaircraft weapons, the guns are used by cartels because they can penetrate armor." "... Ten or 15 years ago, you rarely saw a .50-caliber weapon" in Mexico, the U.S. official said. "Now they're popping up everywhere." |
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an armor-piercing machine gun
So they don't need ammo anymore? |
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too true and funny as hell..... |
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I think the title of this thread should be reversed-----and changed to read: "Illegal immigrants flow easily into the U. S. from Mexico----robbery, torture and homicide follow in their wake".
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+1 |
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And yet the laziest, most corrupt police force in north america is not compelled to act in defense of it's own citizens.
and yet every criminal in Mexico seems to have one
a functioning international border, fenced and regulated, monitored by non-corrupt police could be a viable solution and yet again the only idea that appeals is to restrict rights of law abiding citizens
I bet there are stores in Nuevo Laredo that sell fake green cards, social security cards, birth certificates, stores that sell equipment and maps for sneaking across the border, guides working on store fronts to aid the illegal immigrants, drug traffic, spies and terrorists in their quest to come into the USA. They live in a shit hole by choice, the mexican government is famous for being corrupt on every level, as well as the police, this is the result. This has nothing to do with legal gun owners in the US of A. This is basically the same story they ran last week out of Canada. It is a new angle on banning gun rights. Do it for the lousy countries to lazy to do it for themselves. |
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Story time:
Years back living in Houston, I'm setting in my apartment watching the tube when automatic fire opens up behind my apartment. HPD shows up and goes directly to the shooters apartment. Turns out he was a coke dealor high on his product and thought it amusing to shoot up the dumpster. What they found was a large stash of coke and a case of Isreali Uzis, the wooden crate still in the carboard box that said, "Hecho de Mexico" on its side. Its with this in mind I fly my first |
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That has been discussed before here. None of the people in favor of it could explain how many people it would take, how much it would cost, or how it could be reasonably accomplished.
I bet you severely underestimate the size of the illegal immigrant industry. But "spies and terrorists"????? Better adjust the tin foil hat again. Some harmful rays are getting through. |
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What's wrong with a huge high voltage electric razor wire fence, with a 200 yard wide high density minefield, and machine gun towers every quarter mile? That should be easy enough to calculate. Maybe actually start shooting at them as they invade? |
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Well, if it is easy enough to calculate the cost, why don't you be first? Show us some reasonable estimate, along with staffing figures, that will fit within the US national budget. |
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You're asking an electrical engineer in the telecom business to calculate how much a military operation will cost? Please. I can't for the same reason you can't. However, it's easy to see the cost of NOT doing it. Here's an idea - move some or all of those folks we have stationed in Germany to a new base that happens to stretch along our southern border. Much of the land is already owned by the feds, shouldn't cost us a whole lot. We already have lots of machine guns. I'm sure we have a nice stockpile of land mines stored somewhere that's just taking up space. So we're pretty much looking at the cost of razor wire and some towers. After a few die trying to cross, the flood will subside. Seems to me the only hold up is political, not economic. ETA: A large part of paying for it could come from the savings realized by NOT having to provide social services and medical care for millions of illegals. |
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Were can I go to buy armor-piercing machine gun, a grenade launcher, and a full auto AK 47? You know none of this stuff could have come from any were but Texas were, according to the press, every one over the age of 3 has a pistol, assault rifle, and tons of ammo. Texas has the most liberal of gun laws according to the article. But don’t they have a low crime rate? Could there be a connection?
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Well, the basics of figuring out how much something should cost are pretty straightforward. First, you figure out the costs of a few thousand miles of chain link fence. Then you figure out how many people you want every so many yards, and you get the number of people who have to be on the border at any given time. Then you figure there are three shifts a day, weekends off, at least two people in support of the people who are on the line, etc., etc. Same procedure as figuring out how much it would cost to build a house, only more of it.
Actually, I have done it rough estimates at times, as have other people who are far more knowledgeable of the subject than I am. The answer always comes out the same -- you can't afford it. No way, no how.
Well, if that is easy, then give us the figures.
OK, let's test your theory. First question: How long is the stretch of border you want to seal? Second question: How far apart will your people be? Give us those two numbers and we will have a start on an estimate. We will know how many people it would take. |
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Waa. Waa. Waa. It will cost too much, it will be too hard, it is just too much. Waa. Waa. Waa.
I'm glad we didn't think that way when we: built the panama canal built the hoover damn built the interstate system built the a-bomb built the Apollo mission vehicles to go to the moon built America Damn, to give up before we even try when the goal isn't the wall itself but the freedom from an invading herd of illegal aliens. Do I want to live in mexico? No. Do I want to live among a billion mexicans? No. Do I support a wall at any cost? Yes. |
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American guns are just shooting the the bullets that Mexican guns don't want to. |
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I agree. Sad day when Americans become American'ts. |
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Yep. Some of these people seem to want us to just lay down and die. To just roll over and leave our homes and spirits open for the use of whomever. To give away our birth right because it wasn't fair. They seem to want to us to forget that we are the beneficiaries of the greater people that came before us. I feel a stewardship to that American greatness, so that my kids and their kids may enjoy the America that I've enjoyed. We have this country because it was given to us by our for fathers. Fair and Square. Now I feel very slightly sorry for the loosing sides in history. Very mildy sorry for them in a detatched distanced academic sort of way. I feel no pity, no sorry, nor would I feel any remorse or guilt in killing the MFers that would take or give away what is ours. |
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dude you're making far too much sense. |
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Doesn't it blow that this dirtball gets to have UZIs and we fucking can't. |
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Maybe you missed the fact that they did cost estimates and had budgets for all those things before they started. They may have run over budget on some, but they still had some foggy clue where they were going when they started? Have you gotten to the "foggy clue" point yet? |
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So flap your arms and fly. Don't tell me you can't. Don't tell me that a simple knowledge of aerodynamics could prove instantly that you couldn't. Just do it, and stop being one of those pussy American'ts. |
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Razor wire, not chain link fence. Since I have no idea the cost of razor wire, I can't give you that number. You can find the length of the border in most any atlas. I figure a gun tower every quarter mile (keep in mind, I have no military experience - you may be easily able to spread them out more). We already have a bunch of the people required - they're stationed in unappreciative countries around the world, starting with Germany. Figure several guys in each tower, with M2's or miniguns. If I can assume a 1000 mile stretch of border, that comes out to 8000 guys more or less, per shift. Military guys would know better how far to space them and how to arm them. That's less than our current deployment in Germany IIRC. The land mines don't eat or take time off. Don't forget to electrify the fence too, and there will be some cost for survalence gear and what not. I still don't see it as cost prohibitive, especially considering the alternative. I see only politics in the way. |
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Who, besides you, said that? I just asked for some figures on what the plan would cost. I guess you have automatically assumed that providing figures for the plan would immediately show that the plan is rather foolish. If that's the case, you are right. |
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Maybe somethings are just too important to not do. I doubt anyone will ever know the true cost in dollars of our war on terror. But most seem to thing it's important. Or are you against that also, since there wasn't a projected cost analysis completed to your approval beforehand? |
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Maybe they should close the border to stop the flow of illegal
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You're confusing science with economics - please stay focused. I may have missed it somewhere else, but exactly what do YOU propose we do about the situation? Per you, we can't seal the borders. Let's hear your thoughts on how to address this crisis... |
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I was in Mexico (100 miles in) for the New Year's, at midnight I heard at least one full auto, many other weapons shooting and did even get to shoot a Colt 1911 in 38 super . There are a lot of guns in Mexico, may be all illegal, but they are there.
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And I really don't care. This comes up from time to time. Someone expresses his/ her outrage at our governments inability to do anything and their seeming approval of illegal aliens. There are so many good American lives being destroyed each and every day by illegal aliens. Isreal builds a wall to keep terrorists out. It works and the world comdemns them. We build walls here and there. There is one in CA that was finally built over the objections of some environmental weenies and guess what, it worked!!! Walls work. I know the costs would be worth an America without illegals. My arguement isn't with you in particular, just with any pro-illegal alien do-gooder who would destroy America by telling the emporer his clothes are the finest in all the land. |
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Where can I buy a grenade launcher?
Where can I buy an armor-piercing machine gun?
Daymn, Walmart really does have everything....
What aisle are grenades on at your local Walmart? |
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Taurus, Rossi, Imbel? |
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From what I can find, the cost of razor wire is roughly $1.50 a foot. It has to go on top of a minimum 8-foot fence, which will run you at least $12 per foot. Of course, that isn't the end of it, because that will just give you a fence that any illegal alien could easily burrow under. To solve that problem, you will have to have a concrete base along the entire thing. From rough info on the net, figure that cost at an extra dollar a foot -- for the most minimal concrete base.
Yeah, you can, and I have. The point being that you have to have this number before you even start blue-skying about what you might like to do. To help you out, the border with Mexico is about 2500 miles long. The total border is about 20,000 miles long. For the sake of this discussion, let's just stick with the smaller number to give your ideas the best chance possible. Hell, there is no possibility that terrorists would think to come across the Canadian border, anyway. The cost of the fence for the Mexican border alone would be (roughly) $15 per foot, times 5,280 feet, times 2,500 miles == roughly 200 million dollars. For the entire border, at least 1.6 billion for a fence that probably wouldn't stop a determined jackrabbit. If you really want to see what kind of fence they need, take a visit to the border at San Ysidro. I don't know what that one would cost but certainly many times what we are considering here. If you want something really effective, then you ought to be looking at the kind of barrier that was laid down for the Berlin Wall. But, of course, that would be hugely more expensive than anything we are considering here, and it didn't entirely stop people, either.
OK, then for the Mexican border that would be about 10,000 gun towers, or about 80,000 gun towers if we wanted to really secure the borders.
When you said "several guys" you really meant two? I go with your idea that "several guys" per post would be reasonable, but I don't interpret that as "two". But, never mind, let's go with your 8,000 guy per shift estimate. That's 24,000 guys per day, per 1,000 mile stretch of border. Now, that assumes that these guys work 365 days a year. They don't. They get weekends, sick days, and vacations just like everyone else. Therefore, you have to bump that 8,000 figure up at least 25 percent to account for time off. So that leaves us with a nice round number of 10,000 guys per 1,000 miles of border, or ten guys per mile (minimum). Then, if you study military logistics, you will find that there are usually two or three people in support roles for every person actually standing on the line. You know, truck drivers, cooks, bottle washers, radio operators, managers, mechanics, etc. That brings us up to thirty or forty thousand people per 1,000 miles of border -- thirty or forty people per mile.
Well, let's forget the land mines and electrification for minute and just go with the information from above. (You could expect serious political flack from around the world for land mines, BTW.) If you want to seal the entire border, that would require (minimum) 30 to 40 people per mile -- about 600,000 to 800,000 troops -- most of whom would have the most excruciatingly boring jobs in the world. I looked up the number of US Army troops and found there were about 500,000, with another 700,000 NG troops. So such a deployment would take all of our Army and perhaps half of the NG -- which could then not be used for any other purpose. If you just want to seal the Mexican border (and figure that Mexicans are too stupid to figure out a way around your Maginot line) then that would take about 100,000 troops -- something close to our current deployment in Iraq. IIRC, I have heard many military experts talking about how we really aren't equipped to do two Iraqs at once and, if we did one of those deployments in our own country then we would be seriously weakened for any other potential deployments overseas. And, of course, we haven't really started adding up the costs, as you have said yourself. Even if we deploy 100,000 troops that wouldn't begin to seal the border. We would still have to have all the electrification, gear that goes with the troops, etc., etc. |
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Less than we have deployed to Germany, Okinawa, Korea, Saudi Arbia and Iraq.
Less than the 11 billion a year Cali spends on illegals.
Volunteers, US Military, National Guard. for example. Right now training for the michigan national Guard consist of going to camp grayling or Fort custer for 2 weeks, drinking a lot of beer and basically screwing around. Better training would be ship them to the border for two weeks a year, give then claymores and live ammo and let them practicse ambushes on the invaders. All NG and reserve training should be done on the border. It should also be used for all air asset training and they should do it with live ammo. Why waste ammo dropping bombs in the so cal desert when you could be dropping them on coyotes instead? |
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