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Posted: 3/7/2001 7:19:24 AM EDT
LA Times


Wednesday, March 7, 2001
Rare Handgun Used in Rampage
Firearms: U.S. agents are tracing the past of the .22-caliber German
revolver. Suspect's father says it was locked away.

By JOSH MEYER, STEVE BERRY, Times Staff Writers

The gun that 15-year-old Charles Andrew Williams allegedly used in
his deadly rampage was a relatively rare German-made Arminius .22-caliber
long-barrel revolver that his father says belonged to him and was locked
Federal authorities said they plan to continue tracing the gun,
however, to determine whether father Charles Jeffrey Williams possessed it
lawfully and who owned it before him.
"We're trying to see if it was purchased by him, if he's the current
owner, and if it was purchased legally," said Sonny Wilson, assistant
special agent in charge of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and
Firearms' Los Angeles division office, which includes San Diego.
The ATF is tracing the gun's path to Santee in accordance with the
federal Youth Crime Gun Interdiction Initiative, which requires that
authorities determine how a minor obtains a gun used in the commission of
a felony crime.
Donald R. Kincaid, special agent in charge of the ATF's Southern
California operations, said the small-caliber revolver--model number
HW7--was manufactured in Germany. From there it was shipped to the United
States in the late 1970s, passing through at least two wholesalers before
being bought by a customer shortly afterward.
Kincaid would not say who purchased the weapon or where. Agents also
could not determine the chain of ownership after the initial purchase.
"Without knowing that, we can't say how it got where it is," Kincaid
ATF agents were stymied by the fact that gun owners do not have to
file documentation of sales between private individuals. Kincaid said
transactions often occur at gun shows or swap meets where the participants
do not know each other, making traces virtually impossible.
"There are cases like this where you can't make anything fit,"
Kincaid said.
Local authorities also are investigating the circumstances
surrounding the gun--specifically Williams' assertion that he was the
owner and kept it locked away. If they believe he is being untruthful,
Williams could be charged with a felony called criminal storage.
That law makes it a felony if a child under 16 hurts someone with a
loaded gun that was left unlocked. Should someone be killed or seriously
hurt, the crime is punishable by up to three years in prison and a $10,000

* * *

The Weapon
The German-made revolver that was used in the Santana High School
shootings is an inexpensive gun that winds up on many counties' "junk gun

* * *
* Caliber
Arminius .22 LR revolver
* Bullet velocity
1,280 feet per second at 50 yards
* Manufactuer
Herman Weihrauch, a West German company, in the 1950s
* Price
$100 to $300

* * *
Los Angeles County bans all Arminius models. Under a California law
that went into effect Jan. 1, it cannot be sold in the state because it is
not among the 380 models that have been subjected to and passed safety
tests. In Maryland, where the the Williams family lived before moving to
Santee, many Arminius models are allowed, but not this one.

* * *
Note: The gun is not actual size
Sources: Violence Policy Center, San Diego Sheriff's Department;
compiled by MIKE FANEUFF/L
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 7:22:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 7:24:43 AM EDT
Nice read but I wish you guys would start quoteing from a legit newspaper. The LATimes is a communist rag from page 1.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 7:32:18 AM EDT
I believe there is a saying that goes something like, "keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer," or something like that.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 7:38:22 AM EDT
Maybe I'm dense (well, no maybe about it), re: the ATF not being able to 'trace' the guns ownership chain. What diffence does it make? The guy (shooter's father) had several guns, which they confiscated. If he had purchased it from a dealer or from a private party, either way the gun was there. As long as the man was not legally barred from owning a gun, why do they trace it at all?
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 7:41:43 AM EDT
"ATF agents were stymied by the fact that gun owners do not have to file documentation of sales between private individuals. Kincaid said
transactions often occur at gun shows or swap meets where the participants do not know each other, making traces virtually impossible."

* * *
Note: The gun is not actual size
[b]Sources: Violence Policy Center[/b], San Diego Sheriff's Department;
compiled by MIKE FANEUFF/Los Angeles Times
Copyright 2001 Los Angeles Times

The conditioning continues.  Note the sources.  This is just another salvo in the War on Rights.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 7:46:23 AM EDT
ATF agents were stymied by the fact that gun owners do not have to
file documentation of sales between private individuals. Kincaid said
transactions often occur at gun shows or swap meets where the participants
do not know each other, making traces virtually impossible.
"There are cases like this where you can't make anything fit,"
Kincaid said.

Gee. There's that damned gunshow loophole they keep talking about.

Well here in Colo. we closed that last Nov. But, soon to come, will be the "newspaper" or "bulletin board" loophold. Just wait and see.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 7:51:00 AM EDT
This is bull$hit, the idiot writers whining that this gun is illegal in Calif, so what? What is the difference in being shot by a gun that is sanctioned by the govt and one that is not, those 2 boys are just as dead.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 8:03:39 AM EDT
Why not hold the shooter and whoever supplied a minor a firearm and call it a day.

Who gives a rat's a** where the gun came from. That kid pulled the trigger and it sounds if maybe the father may be negligent in allowing his son access.

Of course, we cannot convict the poor little bastard right here due to his Constituional rights, but I think he should face trial as an adult.

I wish people would just hold others accountable for their actions instead of blaming an inanimate object.

I can't wait for a feature article to come out and tell us about the poor kid as he was taunted at school and how he was oppressed by society and blah, blah, blah.

Rant over.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 8:09:03 AM EDT
LA Times

ATF agents were stymied by the fact that gun owners do not have to
file documentation of sales between private individuals.
View Quote

Gee, lets see BATF = the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and [b] FIREARMS. [/b]

And they are stymied by firearms laws???? So, do they know ANYHTHING about firearms at all???

Disband the BATF - they clearly ain't smart enuf to fight their way out of a paper bag.

Link Posted: 3/7/2001 8:37:23 AM EDT
Gemeinschaft: you should be careful what you wish for.  I didn't want to post all of the this stuff, but since you asked....  Have fun!

     SANTEE, Calif. -- As authorities prepared to arraign school murder suspect Charles Andrew Williams, this community spent Tuesday asking questions no one could answer, searching for consolation and worrying that the memory of blood in a high school hallway may forever trouble the town's conscience.

COLUMN ONE: Triggers of Violence Still Elusive
By ROSIE MESTEL, Times Medical Writer
    Long-term studies now identify 'risk factors' that lead youths to lash out. But no one can predict an individual's behavior

Shooting Suspect's Heart Was Still in His Small Maryland Hometown
By MEGAN GARVEY, Times Staff Writer
    Background: He had told friends in Brunswick that he wanted to return. They say he was loved there.

Littleton's Reluctant Experts Try to Help
By JULIE CART, Times Staff Writer
    Aid: Officials who went through the Columbine horror tell Santee what to expect. One warns that the trauma has 'just begun.'

Youth Could Face Lengthy Sentence
By BETH SHUSTER, Times Staff Writer

Move to Boost Security Has Pitfalls
    Safety: Experts urge against knee-jerk responses such as metal detectors, and suggest a multifaceted approach that stresses communication
    Courts: He wouldn't be executed, but charges could mean years in prison. Officials say he would have been tried as an adult even without Prop. 21.

In a Stunned Town, a Sad Cry: 'We Are Changed Now'
    Community: Healers take over as hundreds gather at church to share grief and get counseling.

'You Couldn't Ask for a Nicer Kid'
    Victim: Randy Gordon is remembered as an athlete who worked for campus peace.

Rare Handgun Used in Rampage
By JOSH MEYER, STEVE BERRY, Times Staff Writers
    Firearms: U.S. agents are tracing the past of the .22-caliber German revolver. Suspect's father says it was locked away

'He Was an Incredibly Sweet Guy'
By MATTHEW EBNET, Times Staff Writer
    Fatality: Brian Zuckor loved performing bike stunts to amuse his friends, but he was known as careful and conscientious
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 8:51:38 AM EDT
What a ridiculous waste of manpower in tracing a weapon.  Who cares.  They caught the turd that used it.  It didn't jump up and go on a rampage all by itself did it?
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 9:53:57 AM EDT
I can't wait for the media morons to start using stupid comparisons to stir up the sheeple like:

"The .22 long rifle bullets that williams used look innocently small, but when fired out of the Arminius pistol they were going 1,280 feet per second or 873 miles per hour, 4 times faster than Dale Ernhardt's racing car or 9 TIMES faster than a Nolan Ryan fastball! The Arminius pistol also has a longer barrel which is used to push the bullets to a higher velocity and with more deadly accuracy than normal pistols. This gun was manufactured with the intent of target shooting and it performed this task too well, as in this case children were the targets."
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 10:34:41 AM EDT
Hate to sound like a conspiacy theorist, but is it really an accident that a major network did an hour long show about kids and guns the night before this incident and that the day after, a major network had a program detailing school shootings?????

Link Posted: 3/7/2001 10:46:00 AM EDT
Well if you really want to add to the conspiracy, the UN just happened to be having the first day of a conference concerning school violence in Paris the same day of the shooting.

When it happens once it is an abberation, twice it is a coincidence, three times it is policy!
MK ULTRA comes to mind.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 11:05:55 AM EDT
Here's an Arminius .22, along with a link to discussion of the gun:



Here's a huge pic of one for sale on GunsAmerica for $150:

Link Posted: 3/7/2001 11:12:06 AM EDT
So is the LA Times twisting more facts about this case by saying the gun is illegal in CA?  If it was of new manufacture and had not passed the safety test, it would be illegal.  The gun is used, not new and is not illegal for possession or sale in the state.  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 11:40:33 AM EDT
semiauto: Come on, with a nickname like Pravda West, what do you expect from those communists. Those folks are dummies on anything more technical than the weather, when they have gaps in their knowledge, they fill it in with some of their own well-chosen words so it will make sense, at least to them. They are fast and loose with the facts. Think of the definition of propaganda.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 1:44:28 PM EDT
LA Times forgot to mention the sights on this weapon.


That rear sight appears to be fully adjustable.


Perfect for zeroing in on those fleeing HS students.

Quick change revolving cylinders as well.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 2:02:02 PM EDT
Goodbye Gunshows.
Either that or "check you bags with the ATF at the Exit" [puke]
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 2:19:38 PM EDT
And so the witch hunt begins....

It's not enough that the kid murdered people in cold blood, now they have to try to crucify the father, too.  I thought we abolished the notion of "corruption of blood."  The kid alone is responsible for the crime, no more, no less.  What we need to fix is the problem this country has with producing amoral children.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 2:36:30 PM EDT
Hate to sound like a conspiacy theorist, but is it really an accident that a major network did an hour long show about kids and guns the night before this incident and that the day after, a major network had a program detailing school shootings?????

View Quote

This line of thinking has been going on for awhile in my mind.
I am convinced.

As Imbroglio stated,
Looks like active policy to me.

Brainwashing the sheeple is getting to be an Art, not just a science.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 3:25:40 PM EDT
What a horrible gun, only the police and military should have access to guns like that, lets call rosie o'donnel and organize a protest to get those awful things banned!!

Link Posted: 3/7/2001 3:48:11 PM EDT
Who cares what kind of gun it was?
The father was irresponsible (but, let's face it, people--teenagers included--have a way of getting things if they really want to) and the child has some serious problems.  This kind of thing will happen again... and again...
Maybe if the media doesn't glorify it as they do?  These kids feel alienated and alone, nobody seems to notice them or whatever.  What better way to be noticed than to control the prime-time news?
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 4:53:31 PM EDT
RARE??!?!!  Rare my ass.  I have boxes of those junkers.  When will they realize that these kids have some serious mental problems??
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 5:20:44 PM EDT

You can probably sell those now. The Kali school shooter revolver.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 5:43:32 PM EDT
the major tv nets are already painting the picture of the kid being the poor little boy who got "picked on" all the time. why is it that santana high refused to let the close friends of the shooter, who he told of his plans in advance, to attend school for "a few days" ? and if they are going to prosecute the father, who has admitted already owning the revolver, why is it necessary to trace the gun and emphasive every other fact relating to this incident except the one that should be adressed, that this kid has problems, like too many kids also have, and someone (in authority) damn well better get into, or this business is going to go on and on, guns or no guns. (five young persons being indicted right now in buffalo, for the torture and murder of one of thier peers. all under 21, all of same race, no guns in this one, no national media either!!!)
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 5:52:12 PM EDT
Excuse me?  The father was irresponsable?  From all I here the gun was under lock and key.  That is more than the law requires.  The kid stole a key and gained access.  He stole the gun from all I hear.  And face it, storage systems are worthless, the two grade schoolers in Jonesboro AR, took their guns from a safe using a blowtorch, chisels, and a sledgehammer.  There is no way to keep a kid of this age from breaking in to the guns as long as they dont care about getting caught.

You can fault him for being clueless and detached from his kid, but not for not storing his guns incorrectly.
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 6:04:44 PM EDT
the kid was definitely on a mission. what needs to be done is find out why and start adressing the reasons why so the real issues can be dealt with to prevent these incidents.....
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 7:59:29 PM EDT
I am intrigued by some of you thinking the father is not responsible in any way. Granted, we do not have all the details. If the kid did have to break into a safe/lockbox to get the gun then it would seem the father is not responsible. But if it was either not locked or locked but the family knows where the key is, why wouldn't the father (and mother) be responsible?

Before you flame me, let me try to explain my logic.

Most everyone agrees that parents should be part of their kids' lives. Should know how their child is doing emotionally and have an idea what their state of mind is. Think your kid is possibly unstable? Lock up the guns.  

If you and your 3 year old are in a shop and the kid starts breaking things, who is responsible for paying for it? The parent.

By law, the parent is responsible for the child's welfare until age 18. Parents have to make restitution for damages up to age 18 (at least in my state). Why wouldn't the parents be responsible in some way?

Was watching CNN right after the Santee school shooting, they interviewed a mother who was looking for her son.  They asked if her son knew the shooter, she said 'well, i don't know any of my sons friends or what he does when he's not home'. Holy Crap people!


Also wonder about the shooter's friends. They knew he talked about it but "didn't take it seriously". Gee, they took it seriously enough to pat the kid down before school. How much more serious can you get?
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 8:17:20 PM EDT
How about the High capacity mags used. Can you say Assault REVOLVER!  
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 8:27:23 PM EDT
Oh yeah, why did the ATF and FBI feel the need to take the fathers other seven firearms and confiscate them- and presumably are running down their serial numbers too?  What role did they play in the shooting? What are they trying to do? (hint: probably something nefarious)
Link Posted: 3/7/2001 9:19:41 PM EDT
i have one of those revolvers,it has a cylinder for 22lr and 22mag its not so bad for execution shots on wild hogs in .22 only season.
Link Posted: 3/8/2001 4:14:43 AM EDT
the "after the fact boys" are looking in the most obvious place to put charges, just like always!!!
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