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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/5/2005 10:52:20 AM EDT
This thread HERE got me wondering just what would be involved in a large scale land purchase involving multiple parties.

Anyone been involved in such a thing or know anything about it?
Thanks
CH
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 10:53:45 AM EDT
We have been throwing the idea around here in Virginia as well. The idea is sound but it would involve A LOT of work.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 10:55:12 AM EDT
all it would take is a good realtor and a dream. and willing folks with money.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 10:58:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 10:58:43 AM EDT by EPOCH96]
yearly taxes, missed payments, buying out other partners, mineral rights, and some type of liability protection to protect the investors incase some idiot kills himself out there with a case of Tanarite.

There are alot of big hurdles to jump, but it would be kewl

EPOCH
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 10:59:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
all it would take is a good realtor and a dream. and willing folks with money.

It would take more than just a realtor. Finding land that would be suitable for a good gun range out and away from people would involve beating a lot of bushes and most likely would involve buying land from some farmer or old lady who never considered selling land. These days, tracts of land bigger than 10 acres in size for sale are rare. Those that are bigger are quicky sub-divided.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:01:41 AM EDT
Unless you are all willing to live in a commune, or set up ironclad rules that outlined who had exactly what rights, what would be the point?

Who gets to use it? Joe is out there every weekend with his ATV and chain saw tearing the place up and taking firewood. Others claim he is destroying all the good habitat for deer. How is that resolved? What if you are on one side of the issue and the rest of the group decides to cut down every tree and sell it for firewood? Are you still going to be happy with that patch of land?

Suppose you want to sell your piece later, for whatever reason. How do you do that -- knowing that an undivided one-tenth interest in a piece of property is worth effectively nothing by itself.

Suppose somebody dies and their piece goes to heirs who don't want any part of the plan, or have significantly different ideas about the land than you do. What then?

Lots and lots of possible problems with group purchases.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:01:46 AM EDT
There's 133 acres at the top of this thread. Sounds like enough room for a gun range to me
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:05:06 AM EDT
I wouldnt touch it with a 10 foot pole.
Some of the reasons have been outlined above.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:09:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VTHOKIESHOOTER:

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:
all it would take is a good realtor and a dream. and willing folks with money.

It would take more than just a realtor. Finding land that would be suitable for a good gun range out and away from people would involve beating a lot of bushes and most likely would involve buying land from some farmer or old lady who never considered selling land. These days, tracts of land bigger than 10 acres in size for sale are rare. Those that are bigger are quicky sub-divided.



A gun range? First question that comes to mind is who pays for the pollution and other liability insurance. And what happens if George gets unemployed for six months and can't contribute his share?
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:41:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 11:43:34 AM EDT by Cape_hunter]
What about it becoming a private sportsman club operated by elected officials under hte ARFCOM name?
CH

ETA: What about making it a Corp?
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:43:04 AM EDT
It is a nice piece of land.
There was talk a few years ago about a big piece of property up in Vermont (800 acres), doing a group buy, and turning it into an ARFCOM community/resort. A Thunder Ranch/Gunsite place that would be a ski resort in the winter, it was a good idea. It would just have to be planned out well. You'd have your community rules like with any development.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:45:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 11:46:47 AM EDT by Cape_hunter]
Theroretically, could you set up a Land development Corp to handle operations and act on behalf of the land owners?

CH

ETA I know there are tons of resources out there in ARFCOM members.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:48:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I wouldnt touch it with a 10 foot pole.
Some of the reasons have been outlined above.



List
......
Specop_007
.....



Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:49:24 AM EDT
CH Developers do this all of the time except they typically divide the land up into lots. Out here people get together and join clubs and lease hunting rights. Mark Hemstreet has done pretty well starting "co-ops" for hunting land in Montana.

Patty
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:50:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
CH Developers do this all of the time except they typically divide the land up into lots. Out here people get together and join clubs and lease hunting rights. Mark Hemstreet has done pretty well starting "co-ops" for hunting land in Montana.

Patty



Oh, I understand that, but I am not talking but breaking it up. That would be too easy!

CH
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:51:31 AM EDT
Just as long as you don't start calling it a compound...
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:53:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

Originally Posted By Specop_007:
I wouldnt touch it with a 10 foot pole.
Some of the reasons have been outlined above.



List
......
Specop_007
.....









Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:55:50 AM EDT
The idea sounds like a REIT. When all the utopian ideas clash it would probably go downhill.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:57:50 AM EDT
nightmare waiting to happen. Seems cool at first, but within a year or two, buddies will have financial hardships, the shares are not easily trasferable, remaining member will have to pick up the slack on the insurance, tax, morgage, etc...

After 30 years or so one person will be left holding the bag, but till then it will be an undevided nightmare.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 11:59:53 AM EDT
There was a group trying to do a group buy on land in the SF section. I think it fell apart when it came time to put up the money and I think there wasn't enough od them.

Sweet idea though.

I see we have some T. Roosevelt guys in here. "Bully"
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:02:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:07:40 PM EDT
Interesting.

On Pattys post.....

About 45 years ago, my grandfather and 12-15 others went together and developed several hundred acres in central oregon. Folks from here in state may know the place, Three Rivers Resort. It is just past Cove Pallisades state park outside of redmond/madras area on Lake Billy Chinoock.. Initially the land was subdivided, as patty mentioned, and the board members, including my grandfather got first dibs. Over time land was baught and sold but the assoc remained. It is private entry, for land owners only and their guests and they must follow the resort rules. They built and airstrip, shooting ranges motercycle trails, and private marina to keep the fishing boats. Right now ther e are several million+ dollar homes on the premisise and lanad went from $2500 and acre to $10-50K depending on were its located. The idea of this always stuck with me and I grew up wishing I would have been involved. To this day we still have land there and make several trips a year to the lake to fish and hunt. It has been a great thing my whole life.

Anyway, keep up the discussion.
CH
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:09:08 PM EDT
Find something where the owner holds the note. I've been looking my self.

That 133 acres is beautiful.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:14:22 PM EDT
Can anyone answer the Corp angle?

Just wondering.
CH
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:16:27 PM EDT
It sounds wonderful but your looking at hell going into a land buy with so many.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:18:12 PM EDT
Short answer: No.

Long answer: Hell no.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:18:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1Andy2:
Just as long as you don't start calling it a compound...



LOL. How about "The Octagon"?

Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:19:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
CH Developers do this all of the time except they typically divide the land up into lots. Out here people get together and join clubs and lease hunting rights. Mark Hemstreet has done pretty well starting "co-ops" for hunting land in Montana.

Patty



Oh, I understand that, but I am not talking but breaking it up. That would be too easy!

CH



Hemstreet buys land and then sells shares to the land with a list of rules and regulations [covenent?] attached to the condition of the purchase of the share all the time.

Patty
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:20:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pattymcn:

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
CH Developers do this all of the time except they typically divide the land up into lots. Out here people get together and join clubs and lease hunting rights. Mark Hemstreet has done pretty well starting "co-ops" for hunting land in Montana.

Patty



Oh, I understand that, but I am not talking but breaking it up. That would be too easy!

CH



Hemstreet buys land and then sells shares to the land with a list of rules and regulations [covenent?] attached to the condition of the purchase of the share all the time.

Patty



hmmmmm...

Link Posted: 8/5/2005 12:58:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:
Can anyone answer the Corp angle?

Just wondering.
CH



That's better in some ways. At least the land has only one owner which (theoretically) makes it easier to make decisions and to sell.

But then you don't really own the land. You own a piece of paper. Legally speaking, it doesn't necessarily give you any rights to use the land at all - same as if you owned shares in General Motors. Owning stock in General Motors doesn't give you the right to hunt rabbits on their land. If the board of directors of your corp decides that you will never set foot on the land again -- then you will never legally set foot on the land again. And, of course, you are still financially screwed because those private corporate shares are just as worthless an undivided one-tenth interest.

You still have the problems about getting people to agree on a course of action, or use of the land. You also still have the problems of who foots the bills when they come due and what happens if one of the shareholders can't come up with their share.

As I see it, the most beautiful thing about owning land is it is the one place where you can still make all your own decisions to suit yourself (except for the Federal Government, that is). Group purchases are like owning an apartment or a condo. If you have ever lived in a real house -- one that you own -- as opposed to an apartment you will understand the difference. If I want to cut a tree down, or plant one, I don't have to ask anybody but myself. That is worth paying extra.

If it is your land, and yours alone, then the decisions are relatively easy. If you have a group of people you probably won't be able to plant an apple tree without a six-month long debate, and maybe a lawsuit.

A better plan would be to buy it yourself and charge everybody else rent on an ongoing basis. Then all the decisions are your own, and you know exactly what to do if George can't pay his share anymore.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 1:12:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By wolfman97:

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:
Can anyone answer the Corp angle?

Just wondering.
CH



That's better in some ways. At least the land has only one owner which (theoretically) makes it easier to make decisions and to sell.

But then you don't really own the land. You own a piece of paper. Legally speaking, it doesn't necessarily give you any rights to use the land at all - same as if you owned shares in General Motors. Owning stock in General Motors doesn't give you the right to hunt rabbits on their land. If the board of directors of your corp decides that you will never set foot on the land again -- then you will never legally set foot on the land again. And, of course, you are still financially screwed because those private corporate shares are just as worthless an undivided one-tenth interest.

You still have the problems about getting people to agree on a course of action, or use of the land. You also still have the problems of who foots the bills when they come due and what happens if one of the shareholders can't come up with their share.

As I see it, the most beautiful thing about owning land is it is the one place where you can still make all your own decisions to suit yourself (except for the Federal Government, that is). Group purchases are like owning an apartment or a condo. If you have ever lived in a real house -- one that you own -- as opposed to an apartment you will understand the difference. If I want to cut a tree down, or plant one, I don't have to ask anybody but myself. That is worth paying extra.

If it is your land, and yours alone, then the decisions are relatively easy. If you have a group of people you probably won't be able to plant an apple tree without a six-month long debate, and maybe a lawsuit.

A better plan would be to buy it yourself and charge everybody else rent on an ongoing basis. Then all the decisions are your own, and you know exactly what to do if George can't pay his share anymore.



I guess you could just buy it and sell off 33 1 acre cabin/RV sites to members for 8-10K a peice and use the profits to maintain the prop and facilities.
Cant blame a guy for thinking.
CH
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 1:21:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 1:21:25 PM EDT by NoVaGator]
you'd probably want to set it up with a condominium-type structure where everyone has an equal, non-divisibe interest in the land.

You'd want to do it as an LLC but with an operating agreement like an LLP

I'm a little rusty on this stuff, but that should get you started
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 1:22:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:


You'd want to do it as an LLC but with an operating agreement like an LLP


Yeah you would want to incorporate or form an LLC for tax reasons and liablities among other reasons.
Link Posted: 8/5/2005 1:32:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/5/2005 1:35:32 PM EDT by mousehunter]
Perhaps it can be done with a condo style arrangement - with large enough hoa dues to pay the upkeep. I have seen the breakdown of too many investment partnership to really want to be a part of one. Course the condo style arrangement is one to make a buck rather than have some land with friends.

Perhaps a co-op corp could work as well, still scares me shitless though. I have had friends propose this to me before - mentioned it to fiance last weekend, boy did she blow up. She would much rather own the land outright than have an undivided partial interest.

Personally I would prefer to do something that allows for private divided interests, but with deed restrictions to allow for limited common use (hunting and fishing).

For what it is worth - it is done all the time with country clubs, they might be a good place to look for ideas.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 12:05:38 PM EDT
CH with Oregon’s land use Laws this thing can be kinda tough. Our Local range in Albany is looking hard at trying to grow a bit and that will be an uphill battle the whole way.


Originally Posted By mousehunter:
nightmare waiting to happen. Seems cool at first, but within a year or two, buddies will have financial hardships, the shares are not easily trasferable, remaining member will have to pick up the slack on the insurance, tax, morgage, etc...

After 30 years or so one person will be left holding the bag, but till then it will be an undevided nightmare.



I tend to have a pretty conservative mind set and am thinking along the same lines as mousehunter.

If this is something you’re really wanting to do, I would think you’re best bet would be to find a suitable piece of farm land; right size, hills (backstops) distance, whatever you’re desiring in a range. Buy it, make a few small modifications to it as needed for you to use it as your own private range and then lease the rest back to local farmers to farm. This way, you’re the boss and in charge, you make the decisions. Hopefully you have bought it right and the lease is taking care of the financial end of things.

Just my .02. these are ideas that go through my little bean as I’m driving around some of our local farm lands. My biggest reason for thinking like this is that I’d like to get out to the Billy Dixon Line (1540 yards) this would also necessitate that AI Super Magnum in 338 Lapua that I have wanted forever.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 2:15:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NoVaGator:
you'd probably want to set it up with a condominium-type structure where everyone has an equal, non-divisibe interest in the land.

You'd want to do it as an LLC but with an operating agreement like an LLP

I'm a little rusty on this stuff, but that should get you started



If you do that, you have basically taken whatever the individuals put into it and made their investment worthless. An undivided interest simply has no market value. If anyone wants to get out, they have to wait until everyone wants to get out.

And agreements don't help much when your buddy George gets unemployed and can't pay his share of the expenses.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 2:19:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mousehunter:
Perhaps it can be done with a condo style arrangement - with large enough hoa dues to pay the upkeep.



And what happens when one of the condo owners can't or won't keep up with their dues? Do you sue him? (costs more than it is probably worth and creates long term problems) Do you sell his part out from under him? (can't do that because an undivided interest in land is basically worthless.) Do you assume his share of the payments? If you do, then do you get a bigger interest in the land to make up for it? How does that work, exactly?


Perhaps a co-op corp could work as well, still scares me shitless though. I have had friends propose this to me before - mentioned it to fiance last weekend, boy did she blow up. She would much rather own the land outright than have an undivided partial interest.


Hang on to that woman. She is giving you good advice.


Personally I would prefer to do something that allows for private divided interests, but with deed restrictions to allow for limited common use (hunting and fishing).

For what it is worth - it is done all the time with country clubs, they might be a good place to look for ideas.



They are profit-making corps as a general rule. One person or entity bought it and then rented it to others. That way everyone is happy, even if some club members can't pay their dues occasionally.
Link Posted: 8/6/2005 2:28:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Cape_hunter:

I guess you could just buy it and sell off 33 1 acre cabin/RV sites to members for 8-10K a peice and use the profits to maintain the prop and facilities.
Cant blame a guy for thinking.
CH



Now that sounds like a good plan. It might be easier for the other people to agree with, too. They get a distinct chunk they can call their own for not much money. The price is low so they should be able to afford it. They get the use of the other land, subject to your rules and management. They can maybe get some kind of financing for their portion that gives you all the money up front and lets the bank worry about what happens when they can't make their payments. If you want to sell your portion at any time, it has real value.

And best of all, you don't have to put up with anybody else's bullshit decisions about the land that you didn't like.

You are on to something there.
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