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Posted: 4/15/2001 3:32:48 PM EST
I have a question:

First, instead of getting involved with the group purchase, I bought the rifle I wanted from ArmaLite.   If you would have offered a rifle I desired I would have picked one up.

My question concerns the 750K that antiUSSA and the gang is stuck with.  How does this work?  If the rifles are not built, then where is the value added?  Did someone schedule 1000 rifles and then sign a P.O. against the order?  I work in manufacturing and something stinks.  I would buy a rifle if it were a good value, like a DCM rifle at a fair price.  I just don’t understand who is getting screwed here.  If the guns are not all built, and all the parts are not available for production, what’s the bitch?  It sounds like RRA is not being flexible.  Why not just offer the upper and lower and a list of options?  I think the group would prefer access to a good rifle at a fair price.
Link Posted: 4/15/2001 4:03:23 PM EST
$660 for a RRA rifle not a 'good rifle at a fair price".  If that isn't a good deal, then what is?  

I'm not sure what the details of the 750K are, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure one thing out.  When a few guys approach a company (or several companies in this case) and offer a group purchase for 1000 rifles and then only 180 or so people end up buying, then I wouldn't think they would have a leg to stand on when approaching the companies in a year to do another limited edition.  

anti stated in one of his previous posts that RRA thought we were 'full of hot air', well, after only 180 or so rifles have sold to this point it looks like we are.
Link Posted: 4/15/2001 4:03:29 PM EST
Obviously, your question is best answered by antiUSSA or Grin&Barret, but I would like to give my .02cents guess on the subject. AntiUSSA and Grin&Barret, if I am wrong with my view on the subject,please correct me if I am wrong.
I don't think antiUSSA actually bought all 1000 rifles. He wouldn't actually think that 1000 people were going to order this LEGP in such a short time. In time, all 1000 rifles will be sold. It may take a year, maybe two. But that is 1000 rifles RR wouldn't have sold.
Castle Arms waits until they have so many orders, like 100-150 rifles, then places them with Rock River who manufacturers the rifles at the discounted price since they have such a large order at one time.
Castle Arms then gets a cut of the cost of the RR made rifle for being a "middleman" that helped Rock River's business by getting so many rifles sold. Rock River obviously wouldn't of made this many sales on their own.
Rock River probably didn't rush with getting the parts for the rifles as they didn't expect this Group Purchase thing to be that popular.
No one is getting screwed here. It is just that those who ordered this LEGP have to wait for the rifle in order to get it at a good price.
I am a fan of ArmaLite rifles myself. But with the budget I'm on, waiting a couple of months for a Rock River Arms rifle at $660 versus a similiar ArmaLite rifle at $900, I'm going with the LE Group Purchase.
Also to add, the LEGP is not just another rifle. It is a "Limited Edition" rifle that only so many people will have. This by itself is worth having the rifle.
Link Posted: 4/15/2001 4:28:36 PM EST

1st,I think it is a good deal, it just is not what I want.  2nd, MFG does not work that way.  Material has to be bought, machine time scheduled, shipping date forecasted.  I understand these are built in lots.  All I am asking is; where is the money being lost.


I understand the “limited edition” concept, but wouldn’t be better to offer exclusivity to the group by offering an AR-15.Com package to try to get more people into the sport.
Link Posted: 4/15/2001 5:07:27 PM EST
All I know is that they do have an actual contract to purchase 500 rifles.  I'll assume the 750k # is from the fact that they feel obligated to get a 1,000 sold because that's what they told RRA they were hoping for.  They also have some Beta-C's there and other accessories they thought would sell well.  

I figure this is a matter of personal pride and honor. I know I don't like backing out of a commitment nor would I like to have to return items or tell people I can't sell their product.

I ordered my rifle that night because I thought this would be a big hit.  I am absolutely shocked and disappointed that it hasn't been.  I was not even on the 'yes' list that people talk about.  I bought mine for one reason only - I love this website and enjoy it immensely, this is a good way to show my support and to tell others about AR15.com.  I've made every effort to show the value of this rifle and personally feel I can refute any arguement that says it isn't.
Link Posted: 4/15/2001 5:22:56 PM EST
Kevin is right on the money with his explaination.   We told RRA we thought this LEGP would reach 500 or 1000.
Link Posted: 4/15/2001 5:30:45 PM EST
It always comes back to a question of HONOR and RESPECT and MEANING WHAT YOU SAY doesn't it? The concept is so simple for some of us and so complicated for others.

Link Posted: 4/15/2001 6:02:55 PM EST

I did not put my name on any list.  Read my original question.  It was based on the statement made by antiUSSA

In the ** My apologies to Rachel ** thread:

“I owe her a huge apology, publicly!

I have no excuse for the way I have acted on the boards this week, other than to say that I'm under a hell of a lot of pressure with the LEGP rifle project that my partner and I took on for everyone... then the majority of members bailed on us, leaving us holding the bag for upwards of 3/4 million  dollars.”

I like this board.  I would be willing to buy something I want.  If anti and his people are in the dink, lets see what can be done to move more rifles.  

Link Posted: 4/15/2001 6:27:51 PM EST
If anybody has an advertising flyer made, i'll be happy to distribute them to different ranges and gunshops. I'm sure they wouldn't mind getting the transfer fees from them, unless they already have alot of the same type on the shelf.
Link Posted: 4/15/2001 6:47:37 PM EST
I would buy one or two if I did'nt have this
injunction hanging over my head. Its cost $4500.00 to date. If I have to appeal it will be that much again! I would like to see a list of those that said yes and backed out.  Our word is our bond.
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 2:01:26 PM EST
So what is the best course of action?
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 2:45:52 PM EST
I think the group would prefer access to a good rifle at a fair price.
View Quote

I honestly believe the rifle meets this standard.  The majority stated flattop and M4 design.  It is impossible to please everyone, how could've that be done?  I PERSONALLY feel that WANTING this gun involves feeling SOME loyalty to this site.  I do not at all mean that because you didn't buy you aren't loyal.

So what is the best course of action?
View Quote

What exactly do you mean?  For those not happy with the configuration I offered an idea in this post - [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=12181[/url]
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 4:10:56 PM EST

For an M4 configuration it is a great rifle for a great price.  What I meant, and did not state clearly, is I would have preferred a 20" government model.  No frills just your basic entry level AR-15.  I know 2 other people who are interested in buying that style rifle.  As far as what to do next, if they have committed to 1000 rifles, why not stop at 250 and offer a "Government Model" with serial numbers 251 to 500.  I did not know about the original deal so maybe I am talking out of turn.  Also, if you read my original question, I was wondering how antiUSSA was being stuck with 750K.  I posed the question with the intent of helping them out of the jam by investigating options.
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 5:41:54 PM EST
Well, I was 95% done with an answer for you and then got 'bumped' offline and lost it all [:(!]!

Before I was so rudely interupted (crappy AOL) I was saying I think the two seperate setups will make quite a few people mad, especially any true collectors.  It might also take away from next year's planned 20" NM Ltd. Ed. offering.  And last I would also worry that RRA might not like or agree to the production changes though a std. 20" setup should be a bit cheaper.  

Seemingly the only solutions are like I stated in that link above (which you might actually be able make a few $$) to sell/trade the upper and the stock for a std. A2 setup.  Or get Garry Owen to swap parts (you will incur add'l charges for the parts & services though) for you.
Link Posted: 4/16/2001 6:09:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/17/2001 2:46:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By Kevin@AR15com_1&2:
Before I was so rudely interupted (crappy AOL)
View Quote

Well, what type of service did you expect from an anti-gun internet service like AOL. Hmmm? [;)]
Link Posted: 4/17/2001 2:57:59 PM EST
I like Oslow's comment, it's to the point. [beer]
Link Posted: 4/17/2001 3:19:54 PM EST
If anybody has an advertising flyer made, i'll be happy to distribute them to different ranges and gunshops. I'm sure they wouldn't mind getting the transfer fees from them, unless they already have alot of the same type on the shelf.
View Quote

We made up a handout for the Memphis & Little Rock shows.  Then we improved it for Dallas, Phoenix & Tulsa shows.   If anyone would like some, I can email the Word file so you can print some on own.
Link Posted: 4/17/2001 3:21:40 PM EST
I'ld buy a lower in a heart beat with the FC internals, everthing but the stock.

I already have a real live pre-ban shorty.  I could always use another DCM competiter though.

Link Posted: 4/17/2001 3:24:48 PM EST
Thx for that positive comment Half.

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